PianoTech Archive

From Jon Page <jonpage@comcast.net>

There is a S&S locally right on the water, well not really, water 
view/water front.

There is noticeable and detrimental drag to a section in the high tenor.
I can move the lever almost '5 minutes' (clock index) before the tension drops,
conversely on raising. Needless to say, these notes are not stable.

Short of replacing the wire in that section (complete restringing is 
not in the cards
for this family) could a thin brass strip be placed between the 
strings and counter-
bearing to facilitate the rendering of the strings. If not only a 
small curved segment
at the top edge of the felt.

I plan to replace the strings on my next visit to their area
but thought this might be an expedient option.

When restringing, I don't replace the counter-bearing as originally designed
with friction for the entire surface. I limit it to the top edge. My 
next one wil
have simply a half-round or half-oval with non-bearing felt between 
that and the agraffe.
-- 

Regards,

Jon Page

From "J Patrick Draine" <jpdraine@gmail.com>

Jon,Have you considered applying ProTek ProLube or CLP to the understring
felt in this section? Releasing tension on some of these strings, then
pulling back up to pitch, could aid in breaking up the corrosion and high
friction in this segment.
Patrick Draine

On 8/3/07, Jon Page <jonpage@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> There is a S&S locally right on the water, well not really, water
> view/water front.
>
> There is noticeable and detrimental drag to a section in the high tenor.
> I can move the lever almost '5 minutes' (clock index) before the tension
> drops,
> conversely on raising. Needless to say, these notes are not stable.

From A440A@aol.com

<< > There is a S&S locally right on the water, well not really, water

> view/water front.

>

> There is noticeable and detrimental drag to a section in the high tenor.

> I can move the lever almost '5 minutes' (clock index) before the tension

> drops,

> conversely on raising. Needless to say, these notes are not stable.

 >>

This is where my old pro-tek goes, I use an eye-dropper and make sure I wet 
the whole length of string on the bearing cloth, and usually a little  less in 
the upper sections. 
Works like a dream,but I have to do it every time on some pianos with a lot 
of rust on them. 
Regards, 



Ed Foote RPT 
http://www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/index.html
www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html


**************************************
 Get a sneak peek of 
the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

From Jon Page <jonpage@comcast.net>

Doused with plenty of Goose Juice.
-- 

Regards,

Jon Page

From "Frank Emerson" <pianoguru@earthlink.net>

I have encountered severe cases such as you describe, where no amount of
lubrication would relieve the problem.  My solution  was as you described
with a brass half round counterbearing.  However, I would not totally
eliminate the felt, but select a thickness of felt that will only lightly
contact the string.  I would also use a narrower width felt.  It doesn't
take much to silence this tiny string segment.

Frank Emerson


> [Original Message]
> From: Jon Page <jonpage@comcast.net>
> To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
> Date: 8/3/2007 9:20:32 AM
> Subject: Counter-bearing drag
>
> There is a S&S locally right on the water, well not really, water 
> view/water front.
>
> There is noticeable and detrimental drag to a section in the high tenor.
> I can move the lever almost '5 minutes' (clock index) before the tension
drops,
> conversely on raising. Needless to say, these notes are not stable.
>
> Short of replacing the wire in that section (complete restringing is 
> not in the cards
> for this family) could a thin brass strip be placed between the 
> strings and counter-
> bearing to facilitate the rendering of the strings. If not only a 
> small curved segment
> at the top edge of the felt.
>
> I plan to replace the strings on my next visit to their area
> but thought this might be an expedient option.
>
> When restringing, I don't replace the counter-bearing as originally
designed
> with friction for the entire surface. I limit it to the top edge. My 
> next one wil
> have simply a half-round or half-oval with non-bearing felt between 
> that and the agraffe.
> -- 
>
> Regards,
>
> Jon Page
>

From John Ross <jrpiano@win.eastlink.ca>

Where is the half round brass purchased?
John M. Ross
Windsor, Nova Scotia, Canada
jrpiano@win.eastlink.ca


                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                 Original Message ----- 
From: "Frank Emerson" <pianoguru@earthlink.net>
To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech@ptg.org>
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 10:13 PM
Subject: RE: Counter-bearing drag


>I have encountered severe cases such as you describe, where no amount of
> lubrication would relieve the problem.  My solution  was as you described
> with a brass half round counterbearing.  However, I would not totally
> eliminate the felt, but select a thickness of felt that will only lightly
> contact the string.  I would also use a narrower width felt.  It doesn't
> take much to silence this tiny string segment.
> 
> Frank Emerson
> 
> 
>> [Original Message]
>> From: Jon Page <jonpage@comcast.net>
>> To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
>> Date: 8/3/2007 9:20:32 AM
>> Subject: Counter-bearing drag
>>
>> There is a S&S locally right on the water, well not really, water 
>> view/water front.
>>
>> There is noticeable and detrimental drag to a section in the high tenor.
>> I can move the lever almost '5 minutes' (clock index) before the tension
> drops,
>> conversely on raising. Needless to say, these notes are not stable.
>>
>> Short of replacing the wire in that section (complete restringing is 
>> not in the cards
>> for this family) could a thin brass strip be placed between the 
>> strings and counter-
>> bearing to facilitate the rendering of the strings. If not only a 
>> small curved segment
>> at the top edge of the felt.
>>
>> I plan to replace the strings on my next visit to their area
>> but thought this might be an expedient option.
>>
>> When restringing, I don't replace the counter-bearing as originally
> designed
>> with friction for the entire surface. I limit it to the top edge. My 
>> next one wil
>> have simply a half-round or half-oval with non-bearing felt between 
>> that and the agraffe.
>> -- 
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jon Page
>>
> 
>

From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>

> Where is the half round brass purchased?
> John M. Ross

I make it from rod stock. A metal cutting blade in the 
bandsaw, and finish to size on an upside down belt sander.
Ron N

From "Frank Emerson" <pianoguru@earthlink.net>

Actually, I purchase round brass rod from Speedy Metals, on-line, at the
website below.  Select a diameter slightly larger than the finish
half-round height that you desire, allowing for the saw kerf.  I also use
round stock from them to make brass knobs for mass loading bridges.  It's
tricky cutting a half round from a round rod.  If you do not have the tools
for this, a local machine shop can do it for you.

http://www.speedymetals.com/

Frank Emerson


> [Original Message]
> From: John Ross <jrpiano@win.eastlink.ca>
> To: <pianoguru@earthlink.net>; Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org>
> Date: 8/3/2007 9:41:50 PM
> Subject: Re: Counter-bearing drag
>
> Where is the half round brass purchased?
> John M. Ross
> Windsor, Nova Scotia, Canada
> jrpiano@win.eastlink.ca
> 

                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                 Original Message ----- 
> From: "Frank Emerson" <pianoguru@earthlink.net>
> To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech@ptg.org>
> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 10:13 PM
> Subject: RE: Counter-bearing drag
>
>
> >I have encountered severe cases such as you describe, where no amount of
> > lubrication would relieve the problem.  My solution  was as you
described
> > with a brass half round counterbearing.  However, I would not totally
> > eliminate the felt, but select a thickness of felt that will only
lightly
> > contact the string.  I would also use a narrower width felt.  It doesn't
> > take much to silence this tiny string segment.
> > 
> > Frank Emerson
> > 
> > 
> >> [Original Message]
> >> From: Jon Page <jonpage@comcast.net>
> >> To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
> >> Date: 8/3/2007 9:20:32 AM
> >> Subject: Counter-bearing drag
> >>
> >> There is a S&S locally right on the water, well not really, water 
> >> view/water front.
> >>
> >> There is noticeable and detrimental drag to a section in the high
tenor.
> >> I can move the lever almost '5 minutes' (clock index) before the
tension
> > drops,
> >> conversely on raising. Needless to say, these notes are not stable.
> >>
> >> Short of replacing the wire in that section (complete restringing is 
> >> not in the cards
> >> for this family) could a thin brass strip be placed between the 
> >> strings and counter-
> >> bearing to facilitate the rendering of the strings. If not only a 
> >> small curved segment
> >> at the top edge of the felt.
> >>
> >> I plan to replace the strings on my next visit to their area
> >> but thought this might be an expedient option.
> >>
> >> When restringing, I don't replace the counter-bearing as originally
> > designed
> >> with friction for the entire surface. I limit it to the top edge. My 
> >> next one wil
> >> have simply a half-round or half-oval with non-bearing felt between 
> >> that and the agraffe.
> >> -- 
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Jon Page
> >>
> > 
> >
>

From Jon Page <jonpage@comcast.net>

>  Where is the half round brass purchased?
>  John M. Ross

http://www.rjleahy.com/index.html

Half-round and half-oval are not on their site yet but call:
(800) 514-4106

They sell it by the 12' length and cut it to ship.
-- 

Regards,

Jon Page

From Jon Page <jonpage@comcast.net>

From the    R. J. Leahy Company:

Subject: Re: Quote Request Form

Brass Half Round Rod
1/4 X 1/8" x 12'  =  1 lb.      $10.00/lb.
3/8 x 3/16" x12' = 2.5 lbs.     $10.00/lb.
1/2 x 1/4" x 12'  = 4.25 lbs.   $ 9.50/lb.

Brass Half Oval Rod
3/8 x 3/32" x 12' = 1.25 lbs.   $10.00/lb.
1/2 x 1/8" x 12'  =  2 lbs.     $10.00/lb.

We do hope to put more products (including these) on the
website soon - it's always a work in progress.
Let me know if you have any questions about any of the above
sizes, or if you would like to place an order.
If we are shipping to you, remember that we would have to cut
the 12' lengths in half or at 8' & 4' to ship via UPS.
-- 

From "Steve Blasyak" <atuneforyou@earthlink.net>

Does the protech stain the cloth at all????

just wondering

Steve

OC CA

Prua Vida


> [Original Message]
> From: <A440A@aol.com>
> To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
> Date: 8/3/2007 7:59:06 AM
> Subject: Re: Counter-bearing drag
>
>  
> << > There is a S&S locally right on the water, well not really, water
>
> > view/water front.
>
> >
>
> > There is noticeable and detrimental drag to a section in the high tenor.
>
> > I can move the lever almost '5 minutes' (clock index) before the tension
>
> > drops,
>
> > conversely on raising. Needless to say, these notes are not stable.
>
>  >>
>
> This is where my old pro-tek goes, I use an eye-dropper and make sure I
wet 
> the whole length of string on the bearing cloth, and usually a little 
less in 
> the upper sections. 
> Works like a dream,but I have to do it every time on some pianos with a
lot 
> of rust on them. 
> Regards, 
>
>
>
> Ed Foote RPT 
> http://www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/index.html
> www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html
>


**************************************
 Get a sneak peek
of 
> the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>

From Jon Page <jonpage@comcast.net>

>Does the Protek stain the cloth at all????


No

-- 

Regards,

Jon Page

From "Jude Reveley/Absolute Piano" <juderev@verizon.net>

Ahh, kinda late in the thread, but I've been thinking...oh no!

I'm looking to upgrade my string terminations on my rebuilds too like so many of you cool guys and gals so my questions are:

  1.. How do bend your half rounds to conform to any required sweep? Clamp in a form?
  2.. Why brass? It is so soft, will get marred by the strings and eventually tarnish?  Why not anondized aluminum or titanium? If it's a question of economics, shouldn't we at least plate the brass?
Thanks for any thoughts...

Jude Reveley, RPT
Absolute Piano Restoration, LLC
Lowell, Massachusetts
(978) 323-4545

From "Dean May" <deanmay@pianorebuilders.com>

My understanding is from a chemical standpoint steel on brass is self
lubricating.

 

Dean

Dean May             cell 812.239.3359 

PianoRebuilders.com   812.235.5272 

Terre Haute IN  47802

  _____  

From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
Of Jude Reveley/Absolute Piano
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 10:10 PM
To: pianotech@ptg.org
Subject: Counter-bearing drag

 

Ahh, kinda late in the thread, but I've been thinking...oh no!

 

I'm looking to upgrade my string terminations on my rebuilds too like so
many of you cool guys and gals so my questions are:

 

1.	How do bend your half rounds to conform to any required sweep? Clamp
in a form?
2.	Why brass? It is so soft, will get marred by the strings and
eventually tarnish?  Why not anondized aluminum or titanium? If it's a
question of economics, shouldn't we at least plate the brass?

Thanks for any thoughts...

 

Jude Reveley, RPT
Absolute Piano Restoration, LLC
Lowell, Massachusetts
(978) 323-4545

From PAULREVENKOJONES <paulrevenkojones@aol.com>

Hey, Dean, another myth rears it head...

Brass, steel, and cast iron have quite different coefficients of friction because of the way that the surface "galls" or wears down under compression and the movement of one surface against another. What you're referring to as "lubricating" is just a way of describing the friction differentials between the materials. There's no oil, or lubricity, involved. 

Paul

"If you want to know the truth, stop having opinions" (Chinese fortune cookie)


In a message dated 08/07/07 22:02:01 Central Daylight Time, deanmay@pianorebuilders.com writes:

 
 
 
 
My understanding is from a chemical standpoint steel on brass is self lubricating.
 
Dean
Dean May             cell 812.239.3359 
PianoRebuilders.com   812.235.5272 
Terre Haute IN  47802



From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of Jude Reveley/Absolute Piano
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 10:10 PM
To: pianotech@ptg.org
Subject: Counter-bearing drag
 
Ahh, kinda late in the thread, but I've been thinking...oh no!
 
I'm looking to upgrade my string terminations on my rebuilds too like so many of you cool guys and gals so my questions are:
 
How do bend your half rounds to conform to any required sweep? Clamp in a form? 
Why brass? It is so soft, will get marred by the strings and eventually tarnish?  Why not anondized aluminum or titanium? If it's a question of economics, shouldn't we at least plate the brass? 
Thanks for any thoughts...
 
Jude Reveley, RPT
Absolute Piano Restoration, LLC
Lowell, Massachusetts
(978) 323-4545

From "Dean May" <deanmay@pianorebuilders.com>

VERB:Inflected forms: lu.bri.cat.ed, lu.bri.cat.ing, lu.bri.cates
TRANSITIVE VERB:1. To apply a lubricant to. 2. To make slippery or smooth.

 

It is of course the second definition to which I was referring. On a
molecular level the interaction of some metals against each other produces
an above normal amount of friction, while others, e.g., steel on brass,
produce a friction level below what one would normally expect. Their
interaction is more slippery or smooth than that of other metals, i.e.,
self-lubricating. No oil required. 

 

Dean

Dean May             cell 812.239.3359 

PianoRebuilders.com   812.235.5272 

Terre Haute IN  47802

  _____  

From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
Of PAULREVENKOJONES
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 11:39 PM
To: Pianotech List
Subject: Re: Counter-bearing drag

 

Hey, Dean, another myth rears it head...

 

Brass, steel, and cast iron have quite different coefficients of friction
because of the way that the surface "galls" or wears down under compression
and the movement of one surface against another. What you're referring to as
"lubricating" is just a way of describing the friction differentials between
the materials. There's no oil, or lubricity, involved. 

 

Paul

 

"If you want to know the truth, stop having opinions" (Chinese fortune
cookie)

 

 

In a message dated 08/07/07 22:02:01 Central Daylight Time,
deanmay@pianorebuilders.com writes:

My understanding is from a chemical standpoint steel on brass is self
lubricating.

 

Dean

Dean May             cell 812.239.3359 

PianoRebuilders.com   812.235.5272 

Terre Haute IN  47802


  _____  


From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
Of Jude Reveley/Absolute Piano
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 10:10 PM
To: pianotech@ptg.org
Subject: Counter-bearing drag

 

Ahh, kinda late in the thread, but I've been thinking...oh no!

 

I'm looking to upgrade my string terminations on my rebuilds too like so
many of you cool guys and gals so my questions are:

 

1.	How do bend your half rounds to conform to any required sweep? Clamp
in a form? 
2.	Why brass? It is so soft, will get marred by the strings and
eventually tarnish?  Why not anondized aluminum or titanium? If it's a
question of economics, shouldn't we at least plate the brass? 

Thanks for any thoughts...

 

Jude Reveley, RPT
Absolute Piano Restoration, LLC
Lowell, Massachusetts
(978) 323-4545

 

From PAULREVENKOJONES <paulrevenkojones@aol.com>

It's the mythology to which I referred. Language does strange things as we both know. Since we, as a group, tend to be technicians and not engineers, our language tends to be self-lubricating :-).

Paul

"If you want to know the truth, stop having opinions" (Chinese fortune cookie)


In a message dated 08/08/07 08:55:32 Central Daylight Time, deanmay@pianorebuilders.com writes:

 
 
 
 
VERB:Inflected forms: lu?bri?cat?ed, lu?bri?cat?ing, lu?bri?cates
TRANSITIVE VERB:1. To apply a lubricant to. 2. To make slippery or smooth.
 
It is of course the second definition to which I was referring. On a molecular level the interaction of some metals against each other produces an above normal amount of friction, while others, e.g., steel on brass, produce a friction level below what one would normally expect. Their interaction is more slippery or smooth than that of other metals, i.e., self-lubricating. No oil required. 
 
Dean
Dean May             cell 812.239.3359 
PianoRebuilders.com   812.235.5272 
Terre Haute IN  47802



From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of PAULREVENKOJONES
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 11:39 PM
To: Pianotech List
Subject: Re: Counter-bearing drag
 
Hey, Dean, another myth rears it head...
 
Brass, steel, and cast iron have quite different coefficients of friction because of the way that the surface "galls" or wears down under compression and the movement of one surface against another. What you're referring to as "lubricating" is just a way of describing the friction differentials between the materials. There's no oil, or lubricity, involved. 
 
Paul
 
"If you want to know the truth, stop having opinions" (Chinese fortune cookie)
 
 
In a message dated 08/07/07 22:02:01 Central Daylight Time, deanmay@pianorebuilders.com writes:
My understanding is from a chemical standpoint steel on brass is self lubricating.
 
Dean
Dean May             cell 812.239.3359 
PianoRebuilders.com   812.235.5272 
Terre Haute IN  47802



From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of Jude Reveley/Absolute Piano
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 10:10 PM
To: pianotech@ptg.org
Subject: Counter-bearing drag
 
Ahh, kinda late in the thread, but I've been thinking...oh no!
 
I'm looking to upgrade my string terminations on my rebuilds too like so many of you cool guys and gals so my questions are:
 
How do bend your half rounds to conform to any required sweep? Clamp in a form? 
Why brass? It is so soft, will get marred by the strings and eventually tarnish?  Why not anondized aluminum or titanium? If it's a question of economics, shouldn't we at least plate the brass? 
Thanks for any thoughts...
 
Jude Reveley, RPT
Absolute Piano Restoration, LLC
Lowell, Massachusetts
(978) 323-4545
 

From "Dean May" <deanmay@pianorebuilders.com>

ROFLOL

 

Dean

Dean May             cell 812.239.3359 

PianoRebuilders.com   812.235.5272 

Terre Haute IN  47802

  _____  

From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
Of PAULREVENKOJONES
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 5:55 PM
To: Pianotech List
Subject: Re: Counter-bearing drag

 

It's the mythology to which I referred. Language does strange things as we
both know. Since we, as a group, tend to be technicians and not engineers,
our language tends to be self-lubricating :-).

 

Paul

 

"If you want to know the truth, stop having opinions" (Chinese fortune
cookie)

 

 

In a message dated 08/08/07 08:55:32 Central Daylight Time,
deanmay@pianorebuilders.com writes:

VERB:Inflected forms: lu·bri·cat·ed, lu·bri·cat·ing, lu·bri·cates
TRANSITIVE VERB:1. To apply a lubricant to. 2. To make slippery or smooth.

 

It is of course the second definition to which I was referring. On a
molecular level the interaction of some metals against each other produces
an above normal amount of friction, while others, e.g., steel on brass,
produce a friction level below what one would normally expect. Their
interaction is more slippery or smooth than that of other metals, i.e.,
self-lubricating. No oil required. 

 

Dean

Dean May             cell 812.239.3359 

PianoRebuilders.com   812.235.5272 

Terre Haute IN  47802


  _____  


From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
Of PAULREVENKOJONES
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 11:39 PM
To: Pianotech List
Subject: Re: Counter-bearing drag

 

Hey, Dean, another myth rears it head...

 

Brass, steel, and cast iron have quite different coefficients of friction
because of the way that the surface "galls" or wears down under compression
and the movement of one surface against another. What you're referring to as
"lubricating" is just a way of describing the friction differentials between
the materials. There's no oil, or lubricity, involved. 

 

Paul

 

"If you want to know the truth, stop having opinions" (Chinese fortune
cookie)

 

 

In a message dated 08/07/07 22:02:01 Central Daylight Time,
deanmay@pianorebuilders.com writes:

My understanding is from a chemical standpoint steel on brass is self
lubricating.

 

Dean

Dean May             cell 812.239.3359 

PianoRebuilders.com   812.235.5272 

Terre Haute IN  47802


  _____  


From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
Of Jude Reveley/Absolute Piano
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 10:10 PM
To: pianotech@ptg.org
Subject: Counter-bearing drag

 

Ahh, kinda late in the thread, but I've been thinking...oh no!

 

I'm looking to upgrade my string terminations on my rebuilds too like so
many of you cool guys and gals so my questions are:

 

1.	How do bend your half rounds to conform to any required sweep? Clamp
in a form? 
2.	Why brass? It is so soft, will get marred by the strings and
eventually tarnish?  Why not anondized aluminum or titanium? If it's a
question of economics, shouldn't we at least plate the brass? 

Thanks for any thoughts...

 

Jude Reveley, RPT
Absolute Piano Restoration, LLC
Lowell, Massachusetts
(978) 323-4545

 

 

From PAULREVENKOJONES <paulrevenkojones@aol.com>

ROFLOL? Translate?

Cheers,

Paul

"If you want to know the truth, stop having opinions" (Chinese fortune cookie)


In a message dated 08/08/07 18:21:33 Central Daylight Time, deanmay@pianorebuilders.com writes:
ROFLOL
 
Dean
Dean May             cell 812.239.3359 
PianoRebuilders.com   812.235.5272 
Terre Haute IN  47802



From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of PAULREVENKOJONES
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 5:55 PM
To: Pianotech List
Subject: Re: Counter-bearing drag
 
It's the mythology to which I referred. Language does strange things as we both know. Since we, as a group, tend to be technicians and not engineers, our language tends to be self-lubricating :-).
 
Paul
 
"If you want to know the truth, stop having opinions" (Chinese fortune cookie)
 
 
In a message dated 08/08/07 08:55:32 Central Daylight Time, deanmay@pianorebuilders.com writes:
VERB:Inflected forms: lu·bri·cat·ed, lu·bri·cat·ing, lu·bri·cates
TRANSITIVE VERB:1. To apply a lubricant to. 2. To make slippery or smooth.
 
It is of course the second definition to which I was referring. On a molecular level the interaction of some metals against each other produces an above normal amount of friction, while others, e.g., steel on brass, produce a friction level below what one would normally expect. Their interaction is more slippery or smooth than that of other metals, i.e., self-lubricating. No oil required. 
 
Dean
Dean May             cell 812.239.3359 
PianoRebuilders.com   812.235.5272 
Terre Haute IN  47802



From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of PAULREVENKOJONES
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 11:39 PM
To: Pianotech List
Subject: Re: Counter-bearing drag
 
Hey, Dean, another myth rears it head...
 
Brass, steel, and cast iron have quite different coefficients of friction because of the way that the surface "galls" or wears down under compression and the movement of one surface against another. What you're referring to as "lubricating" is just a way of describing the friction differentials between the materials. There's no oil, or lubricity, involved. 
 
Paul
 
"If you want to know the truth, stop having opinions" (Chinese fortune cookie)
 
 
In a message dated 08/07/07 22:02:01 Central Daylight Time, deanmay@pianorebuilders.com writes:
My understanding is from a chemical standpoint steel on brass is self lubricating.
 
Dean
Dean May             cell 812.239.3359 
PianoRebuilders.com   812.235.5272 
Terre Haute IN  47802



From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of Jude Reveley/Absolute Piano
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 10:10 PM
To: pianotech@ptg.org
Subject: Counter-bearing drag
 
Ahh, kinda late in the thread, but I've been thinking...oh no!
 
I'm looking to upgrade my string terminations on my rebuilds too like so many of you cool guys and gals so my questions are:
 
How do bend your half rounds to conform to any required sweep? Clamp in a form? 
Why brass? It is so soft, will get marred by the strings and eventually tarnish?  Why not anondized aluminum or titanium? If it's a question of economics, shouldn't we at least plate the brass? 
Thanks for any thoughts...
 
Jude Reveley, RPT
Absolute Piano Restoration, LLC
Lowell, Massachusetts
(978) 323-4545
 
 

From "John Formsma" <formsma@gmail.com>

Rolling On The Floor Laughing Out Loud

DAMHIK
FYI
FWIW
TTFN

;-))

JF

On 8/8/07, PAULREVENKOJONES <paulrevenkojones@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> ROFLOL? Translate?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Paul
>
>
> "If you want to know the truth, stop having opinions" (Chinese fortune
> cookie)
>
>
> In a message dated 08/08/07 18:21:33 Central Daylight Time,
> deanmay@pianorebuilders.com writes:
>
>
>
>
> ROFLOL
>
>
>
>
> Dean
>
> Dean May             cell 812.239.3359
>
> PianoRebuilders.com   812.235.5272
>
> Terre Haute IN  47802
>
>  ________________________________
>
>
> From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
> Of PAULREVENKOJONES
> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 5:55 PM
> To: Pianotech List
> Subject: Re: Counter-bearing drag
>
>
>
>
> It's the mythology to which I referred. Language does strange things as we
> both know. Since we, as a group, tend to be technicians and not engineers,
> our language tends to be self-lubricating :-).
>
>
>
>
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "If you want to know the truth, stop having opinions" (Chinese fortune
> cookie)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 08/08/07 08:55:32 Central Daylight Time,
> deanmay@pianorebuilders.com writes:
>
>
>
> VERB:Inflected forms: lu·bri·cat·ed, lu·bri·cat·ing,
> lu·bri·cates
> TRANSITIVE VERB:1. To apply a lubricant to. 2. To make slippery or smooth.
>
>
>
>
>
> It is of course the second definition to which I was referring. On a
> molecular level the interaction of some metals against each other produces
> an above normal amount of friction, while others, e.g., steel on brass,
> produce a friction level below what one would normally expect. Their
> interaction is more slippery or smooth than that of other metals, i.e.,
> self-lubricating. No oil required.
>
>
>
>
> Dean
>
> Dean May             cell 812.239.3359
>
> PianoRebuilders.com   812.235.5272
>
> Terre Haute IN  47802
>
>  ________________________________
>
>
> From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
> Of PAULREVENKOJONES
> Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 11:39 PM
> To: Pianotech List
> Subject: Re: Counter-bearing drag
>
>
>
>
> Hey, Dean, another myth rears it head...
>
>
>
>
>
> Brass, steel, and cast iron have quite different coefficients of friction
> because of the way that the surface "galls" or wears down under compression
> and the movement of one surface against another. What you're referring to as
> "lubricating" is just a way of describing the friction differentials between
> the materials. There's no oil, or lubricity, involved.
>
>
>
>
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "If you want to know the truth, stop having opinions" (Chinese fortune
> cookie)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 08/07/07 22:02:01 Central Daylight Time,
> deanmay@pianorebuilders.com writes:
>
>
>
> My understanding is from a chemical standpoint steel on brass is self
> lubricating.
>
>
>
>
> Dean
>
> Dean May             cell 812.239.3359
>
> PianoRebuilders.com   812.235.5272
>
> Terre Haute IN  47802
>
>  ________________________________
>
>
> From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
> Of Jude Reveley/Absolute Piano
> Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 10:10 PM
> To: pianotech@ptg.org
> Subject: Counter-bearing drag
>
>
>
>
> Ahh, kinda late in the thread, but I've been thinking...oh no!
>
>
>
>
>
> I'm looking to upgrade my string terminations on my rebuilds too like so
> many of you cool guys and gals so my questions are:
>
>
>
>
> How do bend your half rounds to conform to any required sweep? Clamp in a
> form?
> Why brass? It is so soft, will get marred by the strings and eventually
> tarnish?  Why not anondized aluminum or titanium? If it's a question of
> economics, shouldn't we at least plate the brass?
>
>
> Thanks for any thoughts...
>
>
>
>
>
> Jude Reveley, RPT
> Absolute Piano Restoration, LLC
> Lowell, Massachusetts
> (978) 323-4545
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>

>    1. How do bend your half rounds to conform to any required sweep?
>       Clamp in a form?

I use a chunk of maple with a V cut out, for an anvil. I lay 
the half round on the block on edge, and whack it in the gap 
of the V with a dead blow hammer. Reposition, and repeat as 
necessary until the half round is bent to your requirements. 
Low tech, granted, but my middle initial is "L".


>    2. Why brass? It is so soft, will get marred by the strings and
>       eventually tarnish?  

And how will the eventual marring and tarnish affect tone? I 
personally use brass because it's affordable, workable by my 
methods and machine capabilities, readily available, and 
exhibits a practically low coefficient of friction in contact 
with music wire. Cosmetics don't concern me in this instance, 
and potential tonal penalties so far remain undefined, unless 
you have something to offer along these lines. IOW, until you 
have a fix, is it broke?


>Why not anondized aluminum or titanium? If
>       it's a question of economics, shouldn't we at least plate the brass?

Why not indeed? Beats me, I haven' tried it. Let us know if 
the trouble and expense is audible in the finished product, 
and we'll decide.


> Thanks for any thoughts...
>  
> Jude Reveley, RPT

Such as they are, that's them. Hey Jude, howzit otherwise?
Ron N

From "Jude Reveley/Absolute Piano" <juderev@verizon.net>

Ron:
And how will the eventual marring and tarnish affect tone? I
personally use brass because it's affordable, workable by my
methods and machine capabilities, readily available, and
exhibits a practically low coefficient of friction in contact
with music wire. Cosmetics don't concern me in this instance,
and potential tonal penalties so far remain undefined, unless
you have something to offer along these lines. IOW, until you
have a fix, is it broke?

Jude:

What concerns me is damage to the brass as a result of the string 
compression that one finds on old pianos that use this system. This includes 
brass aliquots that have even been plated. What if the string spacing needs 
to be refined?  What happens to the profile of our termination? Then again 
you see the same damage to the cast iron v-bars. Uggg! Only questions, so 
few answers. :)

Jude Reveley, RPT
Absolute Piano Restoration, LLC
Lowell, Massachusetts
(978) 323-4545

From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>

> Ron:
> And how will the eventual marring and tarnish affect tone?

I don't know that it will, one way or the other.


> What concerns me is damage to the brass as a result of the string 
> compression that one finds on old pianos that use this system. This 
> includes brass aliquots that have even been plated. What if the string 
> spacing needs to be refined?  

Refine string spacing after how many years of being where it 
is? Has this really been a problem in older pianos with half 
round or oval counter bearing bars? I can't say it has been 
for me, but then different locations have different realities.


>What happens to the profile of our 
> termination? 

What profile? My counter bearings don't define a speaking 
segment, so they don't get profiled. They get left at the 
radius of the rod they were cut from.


>Then again you see the same damage to the cast iron v-bars.

Yes we do, and at what tonal penalty?


> Uggg! Only questions, so few answers. :)

But we *can* ask more specific questions and examine the 
premises around which our questions are formed for validity. 
Ever read Ayn Rand? Whenever you are facing a contradiction, 
check your premises. One of them is wrong.

Ron N

From John Delacour <JD@Pianomaker.co.uk>

At 10:10 pm -0400 7/8/07, Jude Reveley/Absolute Piano wrote:

>Ahh, kinda late in the thread, but I've been thinking...oh no!
>
>I'm looking to upgrade my string terminations on my rebuilds too 
>like so many?of you cool guys and gals so my questions are:
>
>
>1.	How do bend your half rounds to conform to any required 
>sweep? Clamp in a form?
>2.	Why brass? It?is so soft, will get marred by the strings and 
>eventually tarnish?  Why not anondized aluminum or titanium? If it's 
>a question of economics,?shouldn't we at least plate the brass?

Some makers in the past did nickel plate the bearings and this does 
no harm and might even slightly reduce the already good coefficient 
of friction of the brass.  Electroless nickel would probably further 
reduce the friction (cf Ron Overs' experiments with e.n. bridge pins) 
but plain brass will tarnish no faster than the copper on the bass 
strings, so perhaps you need to consider using plated covering wire 
too as Broadwood and Erard used to.  Brinsmead even had a special 
steel wire drawn for his pianos that was first coppered and then 
either tinned or nickeled and this remains rust-free for over 100 
years -- but nickel goes dull too.  The important thing is to keep 
things spotlessly clean during repair and restoration and advice the 
customer on keeping things clean.  I've just taken in an upright for 
French-polishing from a tuner who strung the piano only a year or so 
ago and then kept it in a shed.  The rust on the steel and the 
wrestpins is horrific and all the copper covers dull and brown.  I 
have no doubt that the shed didn't help but the main culprit is my 
friend the tuner, who will not have worked with gloves and will then 
not have wiped the work clean at the end of the job.  People who 
claim they don't have sweaty hands are kidding themselves -- it's 
just a question of degree, and nothing will cause tarnishing and 
rusting faster than the salt.

JD


-- 
______________________________________________________________________
   Delacour Pianos  *  Silo  *  Deverel Farm  *  Milborne St. Andrew
                      Dorset DT11 0HX  *  England
                        Phone:  +44 1202 731031
          Mobile: +44 7801 310 689   *   Fax: +44 870 705 3241 
______________________________________________________________________

From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>

> People who claim they don't have sweaty hands are kidding 
> themselves -- it's just a question of degree, and nothing will cause 
> tarnishing and rusting faster than the salt.
> 
> JD

My hands are extremely dry, meaning I spend winters taping up 
split and generally delaminating fingers. Since putting on 
gloves would guarantee sweat, which would soak through cotton, 
and be immediately on the string when the vinyl glove breaks 
through, I don't use them. I scrub up before starting, and 
dust up with powdered rosin, sprinkling some in the box of 
pins for automatic in-flight replenishment. Works for me.

Ron N

From "Robin Stevens" <pianoman@westnet.com.au>

I put my pins into a half full ice-cream container containing the same
powder you put on your babies butt. It has the dual purpose of helping
lubricating the pins and keeping my hands free from sweat. Plus it also
makes the job smell nice ;-)))

Robin Stevens



                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                Original Message-----
From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
Of Ron Nossaman
Sent: Thursday, 9 August 2007 1:26 AM
To: Pianotech List
Subject: Re: Counter-bearing drag


> People who claim they don't have sweaty hands are kidding 
> themselves -- it's just a question of degree, and nothing will cause 
> tarnishing and rusting faster than the salt.
> 
> JD

My hands are extremely dry, meaning I spend winters taping up 
split and generally delaminating fingers. Since putting on 
gloves would guarantee sweat, which would soak through cotton, 
and be immediately on the string when the vinyl glove breaks 
through, I don't use them. I scrub up before starting, and 
dust up with powdered rosin, sprinkling some in the box of 
pins for automatic in-flight replenishment. Works for me.

Ron N

From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>

>    1. How do bend your half rounds to conform to any required sweep?
>       Clamp in a form?


As it happens, I made a set just now. Here are some 
appropriately low res photos.

Off to drill the block and start stringing.

Ron N

From John Ross <jrpiano@win.eastlink.ca>

Hi Ron,
I have always drilled the block outside the piano.
Using a jig, so that a small back angle is there, and I have a stream of air 
blowing on the bit, for cooling.

I have forgotten. :-(

Do you have a modified drill press to drill the block, or do you do it free 
hand?

John M. Ross
Windsor, Nova Scotia, Canada
jrpiano@win.eastlink.ca


                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                 Original Message ----- 
From: "Ron Nossaman" <rnossaman@cox.net>
To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech@ptg.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: Counter-bearing drag


>
>>    1. How do bend your half rounds to conform to any required sweep?
>>       Clamp in a form?
>
>
> As it happens, I made a set just now. Here are some
> appropriately low res photos.
>
> Off to drill the block and start stringing.
>
> Ron N
> 

From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>

> Hi Ron,
> I have always drilled the block outside the piano.
> Using a jig, so that a small back angle is there, and I have a stream of 
> air blowing on the bit, for cooling.

I do it in the piano, and double drill so I don't have to cool 
anything.


> I have forgotten. :-(
> 
> Do you have a modified drill press to drill the block, or do you do it 
> free hand?
> 
> John M. Ross

With this. Angle adjustable, and valve controlled air float on 
the bottom plank. It's a hovercraft.
Ron N

From John Ross <jrpiano@win.eastlink.ca>

That is what I should have remembered, your 'hovercraft' drill.

I like the double drill idea, I can see how it would be more controllable.

One guy around here uses a hand drill, and I don't think he double drills. I 
haven't had a chance to tune one after he has done it, so I don't know how 
it works out.
He says he holds the air hose at the same time, for cooling. I don't know 
where he gets the extra arm. :-)

Is that a radial arm drill press?

John M. Ross
Windsor, Nova Scotia, Canada
jrpiano@win.eastlink.ca


                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                 Original Message ----- 
From: "Ron Nossaman" <rnossaman@cox.net>
To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech@ptg.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 5:50 PM
Subject: Re: Counter-bearing drag


>
>> Hi Ron,
>> I have always drilled the block outside the piano.
>> Using a jig, so that a small back angle is there, and I have a stream of
>> air blowing on the bit, for cooling.
>
> I do it in the piano, and double drill so I don't have to cool
> anything.
>
>
>> I have forgotten. :-(
>>
>> Do you have a modified drill press to drill the block, or do you do it
>> free hand?
>>
>> John M. Ross
>
> With this. Angle adjustable, and valve controlled air float on
> the bottom plank. It's a hovercraft.
> Ron N
> 

From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>

> I like the double drill idea, I can see how it would be more controllable.

And you don't need to cool anything with air. The first pass 
bit gets hot, but the second pass, which reams out any damage 
from the first pass, takes off so little material, it doesn't 
overheat.


> Is that a radial arm drill press?

Yup. Old, cheap, worn out and sloppy. Maybe all that slop 
helps center the second pass...  <G>
Ron N

From "Dean May" <deanmay@pianorebuilders.com>

I use a similar set up and have my son hold the vacuum w/crevice tool at the
hole. Keeps debris clear and moves sufficient air across the bit that it
does not get dull.

Dean

Dean May             cell 812.239.3359 

PianoRebuilders.com   812.235.5272 

Terre Haute IN  47802




                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                Original Message-----
From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
Of Ron Nossaman
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 4:50 PM
To: Pianotech List
Subject: Re: Counter-bearing drag


> Hi Ron,
> I have always drilled the block outside the piano.
> Using a jig, so that a small back angle is there, and I have a stream of 
> air blowing on the bit, for cooling.

I do it in the piano, and double drill so I don't have to cool 
anything.


> I have forgotten. :-(
> 
> Do you have a modified drill press to drill the block, or do you do it 
> free hand?
> 
> John M. Ross

With this. Angle adjustable, and valve controlled air float on 
the bottom plank. It's a hovercraft.
Ron N

From Sid Blum <piano@sover.net>

Ron-

Forgive me, you've probably answered this more than a few times, but 
how do you control the drill press while it is floating in the sky?

Thanks
-- 
Sid Blum
sid@sover.net

From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>

> Forgive me, you've probably answered this more than a few times, but how 
> do you control the drill press while it is floating in the sky?
> 
> Thanks

You don't. You just position it. Open the air valve, and it 
floats a few thousandths of an inch above the base plank for 
very easy maneuvering. When you have it where you want it and 
close the valve, it sits down firm and stable for drilling. 
It's neat. The biggest problem with first time users is 
getting them to quit playing with the thing and get to work.

Ron N

From Sid Blum <piano@sover.net>

Next time I'm in the neighborhood I want to come see it in action.



>>Forgive me, you've probably answered this more than a few times, 
>>but how do you control the drill press while it is floating in the 
>>sky?
>>
>>Thanks
>
>You don't. You just position it. Open the air valve, and it floats a 
>few thousandths of an inch above the base plank for very easy 
>maneuvering. When you have it where you want it and close the valve, 
>it sits down firm and stable for drilling. It's neat. The biggest 
>problem with first time users is getting them to quit playing with 
>the thing and get to work.
>
>Ron N


-- 
Sid Blum
sid@sover.net

From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>

> Next time I'm in the neighborhood I want to come see it in action.

Sure, Sid! Just give me some advance warning.
Ron N

From "Jude Reveley/Absolute Piano" <juderev@verizon.net>

Yep, that looks pretty sweet. I remember seeing that at Rochester. No 
argument from me about this being better than that felted card stock. Of 
course, now you have that much more nicely gilded plate to protect as you 
run your strings through the agraffes. Thanks Ron...

Jude Reveley, RPT
Absolute Piano Restoration, LLC
Lowell, Massachusetts
(978) 323-4545



                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                 Original Message ----- 
From: "Ron Nossaman" <rnossaman@cox.net>
To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech@ptg.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: Counter-bearing drag


>
>>    1. How do bend your half rounds to conform to any required sweep?
>>       Clamp in a form?
>
>
> As it happens, I made a set just now. Here are some
> appropriately low res photos.
>
> Off to drill the block and start stringing.
>
> Ron N
> 

From ITUNEPIANO@aol.com

In a message dated 8/7/2007 10:10:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
juderev@verizon.net writes:

Why brass? It is so soft, will get marred by the  strings and eventually 
tarnish?


I always coat brass with a clear sealer before stringing to slow down  any 
future discoloration.
 
Bob Maret,  RPT
Central Florida



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

From "Jude Reveley/Absolute Piano" <juderev@verizon.net>

Hi Bob,

I coat most brass parts too, but when it comes to string terminations, I'm pretty sure that the strings will scrape off any relevant finish during the stringing process. :(

Jude Reveley, RPT
Absolute Piano Restoration, LLC
Lowell, Massachusetts
(978) 323-4545
  

                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                 Original Message ----- 
  From: ITUNEPIANO@aol.com 
  To: pianotech@ptg.org 
  Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 7:42 AM
  Subject: Re: Counter-bearing drag


  In a message dated 8/7/2007 10:10:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, juderev@verizon.net writes:
    Why brass? It is so soft, will get marred by the strings and eventually tarnish?
  I always coat brass with a clear sealer before stringing to slow down any future discoloration.

  Bob Maret, RPT
  Central Florida





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.

From "David Love" <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>

Marring and tarnish won't affect tone but you can always shoot the brass
with brass lacquer to keep it shiny.  Most manufacturers who use brass
don't, though.  

David Love
davidlovepianos@comcast.net 
www.davidlovepianos.com



                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                Original Message-----
From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
Of Ron Nossaman
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 9:14 AM
To: Pianotech List
Subject: Re: Counter-bearing drag



> Ron:
> And how will the eventual marring and tarnish affect tone?

I don't know that it will, one way or the other.


> What concerns me is damage to the brass as a result of the string 
> compression that one finds on old pianos that use this system. This 
> includes brass aliquots that have even been plated. What if the string 
> spacing needs to be refined?  

Refine string spacing after how many years of being where it 
is? Has this really been a problem in older pianos with half 
round or oval counter bearing bars? I can't say it has been 
for me, but then different locations have different realities.


>What happens to the profile of our 
> termination? 

What profile? My counter bearings don't define a speaking 
segment, so they don't get profiled. They get left at the 
radius of the rod they were cut from.


>Then again you see the same damage to the cast iron v-bars.

Yes we do, and at what tonal penalty?


> Uggg! Only questions, so few answers. :)

But we *can* ask more specific questions and examine the 
premises around which our questions are formed for validity. 
Ever read Ayn Rand? Whenever you are facing a contradiction, 
check your premises. One of them is wrong.

Ron N

From BobDavis88@aol.com

Ron N says:
 
....I scrub up before starting, and 
dust up with powdered rosin, sprinkling some in the box of 
pins for automatic in-flight replenishment. Works for me.
 
For me also. Body chemistry seems to have something to do with it, as well. 
At one time we employed a stringer who had to wear gloves, or the strings, 
where he touched them, would corrode after only months; whereas the pianos I 
string (gloveless, masking tape around becket thumb) don't seem to be affected, 
decades later. 
 
Bob D





************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour