PianoTech Archive

From "Brad Smith, RPT" <staff@smithpiano.com>

Hey, 
I'm planning to install new hammers on a 20+ year old Yamaha C3.   Nice
piano, good power, just has worn out hammers and key bushings. 
The least complicated thing to do is install Yamaha hammers, and in this
case they would be 'pre-hung' from Yamaha onto new Yamaha shanks & flanges. 

OR....
I could install some other type of hammer, Renner, Abel, Wurzen (haven't
tried yet) or even Steinway, onto the existing shanks/flanges to go after a
different sound.
(Knuckles are decent enough to reuse existing shanks, even though I would
rather just go with all new parts. )  

Question is, does anyone have insights on the benefits of putting different
hammers (i.e. non hard-pressed types) onto an 
excellent Yamaha action?   ( I love the precision of the Japanese/Yamaha,
but I also serve several pianists who are dyed in the wool Steinway people.
who don't care for the tone of Asian hammers, even after careful-balanced
voicing). 

I want to offer some different options to my customer, while being careful
not to promise something I can't completely predict. 

I thought one possible course would be to offer them a different sounding
hammer, onto their existing shanks/flanges, 
and if we ultimately aren't satisfied with it, we could go back and do the
uncomplicated Yamaha pre-hung hammers as originally planned. 
It's a bit experimental, because I can't promise that they'll love it.
Because of that, I would offer them that option at a reduced
rate.   My sense is that we might really end up with an incredible piano,
with a wider dynamic range, but retaining the Japanese precision.
With a reduced rate, I feel I am 'compensating' the customer to some degree
for taking some chances with me, on a more experimental strategy. 

What would you do?  
I have a good relationship with this customer, and built up trust enough
that they would stick with me through an 'experiment'. 
I always try to be as upfront as possible about what I can promise and
predict...and what I cannot. 

Thanks in advance !!


Best regards,
Brad Smith, RPT 
www.SmithPiano.com

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From Erwinspiano@aol.com

Hey Brad
  I installed the Ronsen Wurzen hammers a year ago  on a 30 year old C-3 
originally sold by my Father. He & I both serviced  the piano the entire time & I 
was never particularly fond of it. Hated the  bass strings. Good board but 
nasty hammers. It's in a high use assembly of God  Church so it'll be interesting 
to see how its' held up.
   We replaced the Bass strings with  Arledge product & installed the wurzens 
... Oh My Goodness what an  awesome transformation. Prefiling installation & 
string mating is all that  was required. I'll see it again maybe this week. It 
was a very rich &  expensive sounding instrument. WOW! I'll let you know
  Go for it & don't look back
  Dale Erwin

Question  is, does anyone have insights on the benefits of putting different
hammers  (i.e. non hard-pressed types) onto an 
excellent Yamaha action?    ( I love the precision of the Japanese/Yamaha,
but I also serve several  pianists who are dyed in the wool Steinway people.
who don't care for the  tone of Asian hammers, even after careful-balanced
voicing). 


 

From Don <pianotuna@yahoo.com>

Hi Brad,

The prehung hammers may not fit quite correctly as action geometry was
changed (I believe in 1992). You may have to change the whippens too, to
make this work correctly.

At 06:20 PM 12/17/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>Hey, 
>I'm planning to install new hammers on a 20+ year old Yamaha C3.   Nice
>piano, good power, just has worn out hammers and key bushings. 
>The least complicated thing to do is install Yamaha hammers, and in this
>case they would be 'pre-hung' from Yamaha onto new Yamaha shanks & flanges. 
>
>OR....
>I could install some other type of hammer, Renner, Abel, Wurzen (haven't
>tried yet) or even Steinway, onto the existing shanks/flanges to go after a
>different sound.
>(Knuckles are decent enough to reuse existing shanks, even though I would
>rather just go with all new parts. )  
>
>Question is, does anyone have insights on the benefits of putting different
>hammers (i.e. non hard-pressed types) onto an 
>excellent Yamaha action?   ( I love the precision of the Japanese/Yamaha,
>but I also serve several pianists who are dyed in the wool Steinway people.
>who don't care for the tone of Asian hammers, even after careful-balanced
>voicing).

Regards,
Don Rose, B.Mus., A.M.U.S., A.MUS., R.P.T.
Non calor sed umor est qui nobis incommodat

mailto:pianotuna@yahoo.com	http://us.geocities.com/drpt1948/

3004 Grant Rd. REGINA, SK, S4S 5G7
306-539-0716 or 1-888-29t-uner

From "David Love" <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>

The Ronsen Wurzens are a pretty good choice although the new Yamaha hammers
are not as hard as they used to be.

David Love
davidlovepianos@comcast.net 

		

                                                

					
                                                    

                    

                

                    
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                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                Original Message-----
		From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org
[mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] 
		Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 3:21 PM
		To: pianotech@ptg.org
		Subject: Yamaha action with Steinway/European hammers

		Hey, 
		I'm planning to install new hammers on a 20+ year old Yamaha
C3.   Nice piano, good power, just has worn out hammers and key bushings. 
		The least complicated thing to do is install Yamaha hammers,
and in this case they would be 'pre-hung' from Yamaha onto new Yamaha shanks
& flanges. 

		OR....
		I could install some other type of hammer, Renner, Abel,
Wurzen (haven't tried yet) or even Steinway, onto the existing
shanks/flanges to go after a different sound.
		(Knuckles are decent enough to reuse existing shanks, even
though I would rather just go with all new parts. )  

		Question is, does anyone have insights on the benefits of
putting different hammers (i.e. non hard-pressed types) onto an 
		excellent Yamaha action?   ( I love the precision of the
Japanese/Yamaha, but I also serve several pianists who are dyed in the wool
Steinway people. who don't care for the tone of Asian hammers, even after
careful-balanced voicing). 

		I want to offer some different options to my customer, while
being careful not to promise something I can't completely predict. 

		I thought one possible course would be to offer them a
different sounding hammer, onto their existing shanks/flanges, 
		and if we ultimately aren't satisfied with it, we could go
back and do the uncomplicated Yamaha pre-hung hammers as originally planned.

		It's a bit experimental, because I can't promise that
they'll love it.  Because of that, I would offer them that option at a
reduced
		rate.   My sense is that we might really end up with an
incredible piano, with a wider dynamic range, but retaining the Japanese
precision.
		With a reduced rate, I feel I am 'compensating' the customer
to some degree for taking some chances with me, on a more experimental
strategy. 

		What would you do?  
		I have a good relationship with this customer, and built up
trust enough that they would stick with me through an 'experiment'. 
		I always try to be as upfront as possible about what I can
promise and predict...and what I cannot. 

		Thanks in advance !!


		Best regards,
		Brad Smith, RPT 
		www.SmithPiano.com << File: ATT00002.txt >> 

From Ric Brekne <ricbrek@broadpark.no>

Hi Brad

I just put a set of Renner (Europe) Wurzens on a C6.  And the result is 
beautiful.  Renner Wurzens are slightly harder then Ronsens I 
understand, and require just a little needling to open up the 
sound....perhaps just a bit of lacqure on the highest and lowest notes 
to bring up the power.  I think the natural resiliency in the Wurzen 
felt has pretty much shown itself to be a very very desiable quality in 
hammers.

btw... I also find that for most uses a strike weight curve around the 
top medium - 3/4  medium range followed by a nice smoothing of the front 
weights to match a 38 gram BW yeilds an exceptional touch weight / 
response combination when combined with really good quality hammers and 
voicing work.

I agree... the asian hammers I most often run into are very difficult to 
get a satisfactory (to me) voice out of.  That said... new high end 
Yamaha grands use Wurzen felt now I am told.

Cheers

RicB


Question is, does anyone have insights on the benefits of putting different
hammers (i.e. non hard-pressed types) onto an
excellent Yamaha action?   ( I love the precision of the Japanese/Yamaha,
but I also serve several pianists who are dyed in the wool Steinway people.
who don't care for the tone of Asian hammers, even after careful-balanced
voicing).

From antares <antares@euronet.nl>

Hi Brad,

I think in your case I would opt for the easiest way out and buy an  
original set of Yamaha hammers, glued and all (complete hammer  
assembly).
First of all it is easy and saves you a lot of extra work and time,  
and secondly, it always works out fine.
It might be possible that you will have to move the action maybe 0,5  
to 1 mm to the front (in the treble), because I noticed that they  
changed the hammer position slightly in the highest treble, or you  
will have to take off a few hammers and re-glue them.
The hammers Richard Brekne wrote about are not available in the US,  
and the Ronsen hammers you will have to glue yourself on the new  
shanks you have to order as well.
Although the Yamaha hammers of today are not exactly the same as 20  
years ago, they are still of reasonable and predictable quality.
The final outcome depends on one's skill, of course.

friendly greetings
from
Andr? Oorebeek

R. Vinkeleskade 1-3hg
1071 SN Amsterdam
The Netherlands

tel/fax : 0031-20-6237357
gsm   :  0031-645-492389

www.concertpianoservice.nl

From "Jeannie Grassi" <jcgrassi@earthlink.net>

I think it is interesting that I have heard the term "Renner W?rzens" used
lately.  Renner has always used Wurzen felt.  Their hammers are the same as
we have been accustomed to, but with the introduction of Wurzen felt to the
Ronsen line, I think Renner has felt it necessary (no pun intended) to make
it known that they are using the same felt.  

I think what is more important than who is providing the felt, is the way it
is used.  Ric makes a good comparison.  Ronsons have always had a similar
approach to hammer-making as Steinway:  Hammers very soft initially, with
the tone built into the hammer.  Renners have always had the harder hammers
from their pressing.  Bottom line....if they sound good for a specific
application....use them.  Knowing which to use and when comes with
experience and listening.

Jeannie Grassi, RPT
Assistant Editor, Piano Technicians Journal
mailto:jcgrassi@earthlink.net



                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                Original Message-----
From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
Of Ric Brekne
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 6:30 AM
To: pianotech
Subject: Yamaha action with Steinway/European hammers

Hi Brad

I just put a set of Renner (Europe) Wurzens on a C6.  And the result is 
beautiful.  Renner Wurzens are slightly harder then Ronsens I 
understand, and require just a little needling to open up the 
sound....perhaps just a bit of lacqure on the highest and lowest notes 
to bring up the power.  I think the natural resiliency in the Wurzen 
felt has pretty much shown itself to be a very very desiable quality in 
hammers.

btw... I also find that for most uses a strike weight curve around the 
top medium - 3/4  medium range followed by a nice smoothing of the front 
weights to match a 38 gram BW yeilds an exceptional touch weight / 
response combination when combined with really good quality hammers and 
voicing work.

I agree... the asian hammers I most often run into are very difficult to 
get a satisfactory (to me) voice out of.  That said... new high end 
Yamaha grands use Wurzen felt now I am told.

Cheers

RicB


Question is, does anyone have insights on the benefits of putting different
hammers (i.e. non hard-pressed types) onto an
excellent Yamaha action?   ( I love the precision of the Japanese/Yamaha,
but I also serve several pianists who are dyed in the wool Steinway people.
who don't care for the tone of Asian hammers, even after careful-balanced
voicing).
_______________________________________________
pianotech list info: http://www.ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/pianotech

From David Andersen <david@davidandersenpianos.com>

>  Ronsons have always had a similar
> approach to hammer-making as Steinway:  Hammers very soft initially, with
> the tone built into the hammer.  Renners have always had the harder hammers
> from their pressing.  Bottom line....if they sound good for a specific
> application....use them.  Knowing which to use and when comes with
> experience and listening.

Yes....and I hear and most of all FEEL a kinesthetic difference between
high-tension (Renner) and low-tension (Ronsen or Steinway) hammers.
It's probably a subtle thing, but I just prefer the feel of a set of soft
Renner Wurzen felt hammers---AND I like to use needles more than I like to
use hardeners.

Bottom line, as always, is the quality of the work, and the quality of the
final tuning, voicing, and regulation.

DAVID ANDERSEN

From "David Love" <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>

I would not characterize Ronsen as having a similar approach to Steinway.
The unreinforced Bacon felt hammers bear little resemblance to the
unreinforced Steinway hammers.  While they are both on the soft side, the
control of the pressing through the set is much better at Ronsen and
produces a hammer that does not always need to be lacquered, unlike it's
counterpart.  As far as the Ronsen Wurzen's go, they need little "building"
of tone.  

Renner USA is starting to produce a "Wurzen" hammer that is somewhat
different from the PB.  Whether it is available for public comsumption or
not I can't say.  Wurzen does make different types of felt and it may be
that Renner is using more than one type. 

David Love
davidlovepianos@comcast.net 



                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                Original Message-----
From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
Of Jeannie Grassi
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 9:59 AM
To: 'Pianotech'
Subject: RE: Yamaha action with Steinway/European hammers

I think it is interesting that I have heard the term "Renner W?rzens" used
lately.  Renner has always used Wurzen felt.  Their hammers are the same as
we have been accustomed to, but with the introduction of Wurzen felt to the
Ronsen line, I think Renner has felt it necessary (no pun intended) to make
it known that they are using the same felt.  

I think what is more important than who is providing the felt, is the way it
is used.  Ric makes a good comparison.  Ronsons have always had a similar
approach to hammer-making as Steinway:  Hammers very soft initially, with
the tone built into the hammer.  Renners have always had the harder hammers
from their pressing.  Bottom line....if they sound good for a specific
application....use them.  Knowing which to use and when comes with
experience and listening.

Jeannie Grassi, RPT
Assistant Editor, Piano Technicians Journal
mailto:jcgrassi@earthlink.net


                                            

From "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>

"Renner USA is starting to produce a "Wurzen" hammer that is somewhat different from the PB."

David - what is PB?

Terry Farrell



                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                 Original Message ----- 
From: "David Love" <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>
To: "'Pianotech'" <pianotech@ptg.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 2:07 PM
Subject: RE: Yamaha action with Steinway/European hammers


>I would not characterize Ronsen as having a similar approach to Steinway.
> The unreinforced Bacon felt hammers bear little resemblance to the
> unreinforced Steinway hammers.  While they are both on the soft side, the
> control of the pressing through the set is much better at Ronsen and
> produces a hammer that does not always need to be lacquered, unlike it's
> counterpart.  As far as the Ronsen Wurzen's go, they need little "building"
> of tone.  
> 
> Renner USA is starting to produce a "Wurzen" hammer that is somewhat
> different from the PB.  Whether it is available for public comsumption or
> not I can't say.  Wurzen does make different types of felt and it may be
> that Renner is using more than one type. 
> 
> David Love
> davidlovepianos@comcast.net 
> 
> 
Original Message-----
> From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
> Of Jeannie Grassi
> Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 9:59 AM
> To: 'Pianotech'
> Subject: RE: Yamaha action with Steinway/European hammers
> 
> I think it is interesting that I have heard the term "Renner W?rzens" used
> lately.  Renner has always used Wurzen felt.  Their hammers are the same as
> we have been accustomed to, but with the introduction of Wurzen felt to the
> Ronsen line, I think Renner has felt it necessary (no pun intended) to make
> it known that they are using the same felt.  
> 
> I think what is more important than who is providing the felt, is the way it
> is used.  Ric makes a good comparison.  Ronsons have always had a similar
> approach to hammer-making as Steinway:  Hammers very soft initially, with
> the tone built into the hammer.  Renners have always had the harder hammers
> from their pressing.  Bottom line....if they sound good for a specific
> application....use them.  Knowing which to use and when comes with
> experience and listening.
> 
> Jeannie Grassi, RPT
> Assistant Editor, Piano Technicians Journal
> mailto:jcgrassi@earthlink.net
> 
> 
                                            

From "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>

Roger Jolly has written in the past about the wonders of adding a set of 
Abel hammers and Arledge bass strings to a Yamaha.

Terry Farrell



                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                 Original Message ----- 
From: "Brad Smith, RPT" <staff@smithpiano.com>
To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 6:20 PM
Subject: Yamaha action with Steinway/European hammers


> Hey,
> I'm planning to install new hammers on a 20+ year old Yamaha C3.   Nice
> piano, good power, just has worn out hammers and key bushings.
> The least complicated thing to do is install Yamaha hammers, and in this
> case they would be 'pre-hung' from Yamaha onto new Yamaha shanks & 
> flanges.
>
> OR....
> I could install some other type of hammer, Renner, Abel, Wurzen (haven't
> tried yet) or even Steinway, onto the existing shanks/flanges to go after 
> a
> different sound.
> (Knuckles are decent enough to reuse existing shanks, even though I would
> rather just go with all new parts. )
>
> Question is, does anyone have insights on the benefits of putting 
> different
> hammers (i.e. non hard-pressed types) onto an
> excellent Yamaha action?   ( I love the precision of the Japanese/Yamaha,
> but I also serve several pianists who are dyed in the wool Steinway 
> people.
> who don't care for the tone of Asian hammers, even after careful-balanced
> voicing).
>
> I want to offer some different options to my customer, while being careful
> not to promise something I can't completely predict.
>
> I thought one possible course would be to offer them a different sounding
> hammer, onto their existing shanks/flanges,
> and if we ultimately aren't satisfied with it, we could go back and do the
> uncomplicated Yamaha pre-hung hammers as originally planned.
> It's a bit experimental, because I can't promise that they'll love it.
> Because of that, I would offer them that option at a reduced
> rate.   My sense is that we might really end up with an incredible piano,
> with a wider dynamic range, but retaining the Japanese precision.
> With a reduced rate, I feel I am 'compensating' the customer to some 
> degree
> for taking some chances with me, on a more experimental strategy.
>
> What would you do?
> I have a good relationship with this customer, and built up trust enough
> that they would stick with me through an 'experiment'.
> I always try to be as upfront as possible about what I can promise and
> predict...and what I cannot.
>
> Thanks in advance !!
>
>
> Best regards,
> Brad Smith, RPT
> www.SmithPiano.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> _______________________________________________
> pianotech list info: http://www.ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/pianotech
> 

From Erwinspiano@aol.com

I'll politely disagree. It's more than  semantics in reality. I have 
experience with each of the stated hammers &  the Ronsen are not a low compression 
Hammer in the truest sense of the word  & not all that close Imo to the Steinway 
concept. I realize perhaps the  distinction is probably to lacquer or not to 
lacquer & frankly I've often  used little or  almost zero lacquer in the Ronsen 
Wurzens. 
    I had dinner with Lloyd & Donna  Meyer 3 weeks ago & actually he helped 
Jack Brand in some capacity re-open  the Wurzen plant in the early 1990s & has 
always used their felt.  As  to wether  he's using the Double AA qualities , 
Ididn't think to ask.  Sorry
 I's my opinion that the Ronsen & Renner hammers have  been moving closer to 
a more similar range of compression or stiffness. It  shouldn't take massive 
amounts of needling or lacquer to get essentially to the  same place. Know what 
I mean? I think the euro Wurzen are probably even closer  from what I Hear.
   I still really like the color range that comes  from a decent set of 
Steinway hammers as well.  Treated correctly....  whatever that means to you'all
   As far a compression goes cut open a Ronsen &  Renner or whatever & tell 
me which one blooms the most. The one  that blooms the most technically & 
scientifically  has most  inherent compression & hence resilience. If a hammer 
doesn't' bloom then the  resilience of the felt is being reduced by some mechanism 
in pressing be it heat  or pressure or both.Wow I don't really want to get to 
far into this again but  Jeannies last Statement is as true as they get
  Regards


Ronsons have always had a similar
approach to  hammer-making as Steinway:  Hammers very soft initially, with
the tone  built into the hammer.  Renners have always had the harder  hammers
from their pressing.  Bottom line....if they sound  good for a specific
application....use them.  Knowing which to use and  when comes with
experience and  listening.

Jeannie Grassi, RPT
Assistant Editor, Piano  Technicians Journal
mailto:jcgrassi@earthlink.net


 

From "David Love" <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>

Premium Blue

 

David Love
davidlovepianos@comcast.net 



                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                Original Message-----
From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
Of Farrell
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 1:24 PM
To: Pianotech
Subject: Re: Yamaha action with Steinway/European hammers

 

"Renner USA is starting to produce a "Wurzen" hammer that is somewhat
different from the PB."

 

David - what is PB?

 

Terry Farrell