PianoTech Archive

From "Clark A. Sprague" <csprague4@woh.rr.com>

Hi, all!  It sure was nice to see a lot of you at Grand Rapids, and to put
faces with names.  What a great resource this list is.
    That said, I went to an old Kranich and Bach grand today, that had the
board shimmed, new pinblock, new hammers with shanks and flanges.  But,
alas, not new whippens.  The old things are letting go glue joints, notably
the jack tenders.  Whoever did the job meticulously replaced all those
notorious little spring cords, but now glue joints are failing.
    Having talked about new whippens with the customer,  nothing in the
Renner kit works, or the Pianotek catalog, or the new WNG kit so graciously
given out in GR.  It seems that the K&B whip is shorter in the distance from
the flange center to the jack center.
    Anybody ever modify whips to accomplish the task?  Or what?   Besides
the obvious answer of a match and some flammable liquid!  Customer seems to
want to spend the money.
 
Clark A. Sprague, RPT
csprague4@woh.rr.com
     
    

From "Dean May" <deanmay@pianorebuilders.com>

Spray first with accelerator, wait a minute, then a tiny drop of thin CA on
all the joints. Problem solved. 

Dean

Dean May             cell 812.239.3359 

PianoRebuilders.com   812.235.5272 

Terre Haute IN  47802

 

-----Original Message-----
From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
Of Clark A. Sprague
Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 8:35 PM
To: pianotech@ptg.org
Subject: [pianotech] Old Kranich and Bach Grand

  
Hi, all!  It sure was nice to see a lot of you at Grand Rapids, and to put
faces with names.  What a great resource this list is.
    That said, I went to an old Kranich and Bach grand today, that had the
board shimmed, new pinblock, new hammers with shanks and flanges.  But,
alas, not new whippens.  The old things are letting go glue joints, notably
the jack tenders.  Whoever did the job meticulously replaced all those
notorious little spring cords, but now glue joints are failing.
    Having talked about new whippens with the customer,  nothing in the
Renner kit works, or the Pianotek catalog, or the new WNG kit so graciously
given out in GR.  It seems that the K&B whip is shorter in the distance from
the flange center to the jack center.
    Anybody ever modify whips to accomplish the task?  Or what?   Besides
the obvious answer of a match and some flammable liquid!  Customer seems to
want to spend the money.
 
Clark A. Sprague, RPT
csprague4@woh.rr.com
     
    

From "Ed  Sutton" <ed440@mindspring.com>

Judging from the look of the cushion in the wippen window, I would suggest 
you first look at the regulation.

If the jack tip is jammed into the wippen cushion when the key is at the 
bottom of its travel, the pressure will eventually break off the jack toes. 
Proper regulation may be the first step.

Then you will need to repair or replace the broken jacks. With luck someone 
will send you some, or you will find a jack from a different wippen that 
fits.

It would also be possible to unpin the jacks and re-enforce the joint with a 
drop of Gorilla brand CA glue, which has higher sheer strength than other CA 
glues.

Somebody out there has a bunch of these K & B wips.

Ed S.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Clark A. Sprague" <csprague4@woh.rr.com>
To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 8:34 PM
Subject: [pianotech] Old Kranich and Bach Grand



Hi, all!  It sure was nice to see a lot of you at Grand Rapids, and to put
faces with names.  What a great resource this list is.
    That said, I went to an old Kranich and Bach grand today, that had the
board shimmed, new pinblock, new hammers with shanks and flanges.  But,
alas, not new whippens.  The old things are letting go glue joints, notably
the jack tenders.  Whoever did the job meticulously replaced all those
notorious little spring cords, but now glue joints are failing.
    Having talked about new whippens with the customer,  nothing in the
Renner kit works, or the Pianotek catalog, or the new WNG kit so graciously
given out in GR.  It seems that the K&B whip is shorter in the distance from
the flange center to the jack center.
    Anybody ever modify whips to accomplish the task?  Or what?   Besides
the obvious answer of a match and some flammable liquid!  Customer seems to
want to spend the money.

Clark A. Sprague, RPT
csprague4@woh.rr.com

From wimblees@aol.com

Clark

I had a similar problem with broken jacks 20 years ago. Schaff sells replacement jacks. (Page. 123, lower left hand side). Be sure you get the right arm length. 


Wim

-----Original Message-----
From: Clark A. Sprague <csprague4@woh.rr.com>
To: pianotech@ptg.org
Sent: Sat, Jul 25, 2009 2:34 pm
Subject: [pianotech] Old Kranich and Bach Grand




  
Hi, all!  It sure was nice to see a lot of you at Grand Rapids, and to put
faces with names.  What a great resource this list is.
    That said, I went to an old Kranich and Bach grand today, that had the
board shimmed, new pinblock, new hammers with shanks and flanges.  But,
alas, not new whippens.  The old things are letting go glue joints, notably
the jack tenders.  Whoever did the job meticulously replaced all those
notorious little spring cords, but now glue joints are failing.
    Having talked about new whippens with the customer,  nothing in the
Renner kit works, or the Pianotek catalog, or the new WNG kit so graciously
given out in GR.  It seems that the K&B whip is shorter in the distance from
the flange center to the jack center.
    Anybody ever modify whips to accomplish the task?  Or what?   Besides
the obvious answer of a match and some flammable liquid!  Customer seems to
want to spend the money.
 
Clark A. Sprague, RPT
csprague4@woh.rr.com
     
    

From "Clark Sprague" <CSPRAGUE4@woh.rr.com>

Thanks, Dean, Ed, and Wim.  I thought of CA, and had done this the last time I was there.  It works, but the customer is willing to spend the money to replace the problem whippens, and the question is how to replace them.  Does anyone have any experience in altering the whippens available to make them work in this situation?  
    The other thing I have run into with these, is the screw regulator that adjusts the jack position fore and aft tends to get stripped out, and eventually falls out.  I did a couple of these a few weeks ago on another piano with CA, and, at least temporarily, that works too.  But the best scenario would be to replace the whole problem with new parts.  How to do that?
Clark
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: wimblees@aol.com 
  To: pianotech@ptg.org 
  Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:37 PM
  Subject: Re: [pianotech] Old Kranich and Bach Grand


  Clark

  I had a similar problem with broken jacks 20 years ago. Schaff sells replacement jacks. (Page. 123, lower left hand side). Be sure you get the right arm length. 


  Wim

From Thomas Cole <tcole@cruzio.com>

Clark,

The main difference in these K & B wips is the distance between the wip 
flange and jack centerpins. A dozen years back I was able to get a 
similarly configured wippen to fit by taking a 1/4" section out of the 
beam and super gluing back together. The piano is still playing nicely 
today... well, the A#7 is playing nicely ;-)

Tom

Clark Sprague wrote:
> Thanks, Dean, Ed, and Wim.  I thought of CA, and had done this the 
> last time I was there.  It works, but the customer is willing to spend 
> the money to replace the problem whippens, and the question is how to 
> replace them.  Does anyone have any experience in altering the 
> whippens available to make them work in this situation? 
>     The other thing I have run into with these, is the screw regulator 
> that adjusts the jack position fore and aft tends to get stripped out, 
> and eventually falls out.  I did a couple of these a few weeks ago on 
> another piano with CA, and, at least temporarily, that works too.  But 
> the best scenario would be to replace the whole problem with new 
> parts.  How to do that?
> Clark
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     *From:* wimblees@aol.com <mailto:wimblees@aol.com>
>     *To:* pianotech@ptg.org <mailto:pianotech@ptg.org>
>     *Sent:* Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:37 PM
>     *Subject:* Re: [pianotech] Old Kranich and Bach Grand
>
>     Clark
>
>     I had a similar problem with broken jacks 20 years ago. Schaff
>     sells replacement jacks. (Page. 123, lower left hand side). Be
>     sure you get the right arm length.
>
>     Wim
>

From "James Grebe" <jamesgrebe@charter.net>

Kranich & Bach had all kinds of strange designed parts.  I do not know who 
actually made the parts for them, all I know is that they are different.. 
Must have been strange people there.  I have never read much about the 
company as not much is written.  Any one know much of their history?
James
James Grebe
Piano Tuner-Technician
Creator of Custom Caster Cups
Creator of fine Writing Instruments
www.grebepiano.com
1526 Raspberry Lane
Arnold, MO 63010
(314) 608-4137
Become what you believe
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Clark A. Sprague" <csprague4@woh.rr.com>
To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 7:34 PM
Subject: [pianotech] Old Kranich and Bach Grand



Hi, all!  It sure was nice to see a lot of you at Grand Rapids, and to put
faces with names.  What a great resource this list is.
    That said, I went to an old Kranich and Bach grand today, that had the
board shimmed, new pinblock, new hammers with shanks and flanges.  But,
alas, not new whippens.  The old things are letting go glue joints, notably
the jack tenders.  Whoever did the job meticulously replaced all those
notorious little spring cords, but now glue joints are failing.
    Having talked about new whippens with the customer,  nothing in the
Renner kit works, or the Pianotek catalog, or the new WNG kit so graciously
given out in GR.  It seems that the K&B whip is shorter in the distance from
the flange center to the jack center.
    Anybody ever modify whips to accomplish the task?  Or what?   Besides
the obvious answer of a match and some flammable liquid!  Customer seems to
want to spend the money.

Clark A. Sprague, RPT
csprague4@woh.rr.com

From "pmc033@earthlink.net" <pmc033@earthlink.net>

Years ago, I used CA glue to attempt to repair some S&S jacks that had
become loose.  It worked, or at least it did for a while until I visited
the piano a few months ago.  Many of the jacks were failing.  With this
experience, I would not recommend using CA glue on wood joints.  It
penetrates the wood, making it doubtful that subsequently using wood glue
would create a reliable bond.  The glue that Coleman sells, which is a
combination epoxy/CA, might work, but in any case I would disassemble the
parts, apply the glue, and reassemble them.  Dripping thin CA glue might
fill the gap, but a good bond with thin CA glue never worked well for me.
	YMMV,
	Paul McCloud
	San Diego


> [Original Message]
> From: Dean May <deanmay@pianorebuilders.com>
> To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
> Date: 07/25/2009 6:15:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [pianotech] Old Kranich and Bach Grand
>
> Spray first with accelerator, wait a minute, then a tiny drop of thin CA
on
> all the joints. Problem solved. 
>
> Dean
>
> Dean May             cell 812.239.3359 
>
> PianoRebuilders.com   812.235.5272 
>
> Terre Haute IN  47802
>
>  
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On
Behalf
> Of Clark A. Sprague
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 8:35 PM
> To: pianotech@ptg.org
> Subject: [pianotech] Old Kranich and Bach Grand
>
>   
> Hi, all!  It sure was nice to see a lot of you at Grand Rapids, and to put
> faces with names.  What a great resource this list is.
>     That said, I went to an old Kranich and Bach grand today, that had the
> board shimmed, new pinblock, new hammers with shanks and flanges.  But,
> alas, not new whippens.  The old things are letting go glue joints,
notably
> the jack tenders.  Whoever did the job meticulously replaced all those
> notorious little spring cords, but now glue joints are failing.
>     Having talked about new whippens with the customer,  nothing in the
> Renner kit works, or the Pianotek catalog, or the new WNG kit so
graciously
> given out in GR.  It seems that the K&B whip is shorter in the distance
from
> the flange center to the jack center.
>     Anybody ever modify whips to accomplish the task?  Or what?   Besides
> the obvious answer of a match and some flammable liquid!  Customer seems
to
> want to spend the money.
>  
> Clark A. Sprague, RPT
> csprague4@woh.rr.com
>      
>     
>

From "Mike Morvan" <keymaestro@verizon.net>

Paul,
    I can't agree with you more. Because of it's convenience, I believe CA 
glue is possibly being overused in our profession.
    You also bring up a good point often not considered by many of us, 
because of it's high absorption rate into the wood, CA glue penetrates the 
wood pores up to 1/16th of an inch and  it complicates or prevents proper 
repairs in the future.  Mike

BLACKSTONE VALLEY PIANO
Michael A. Morvan
76 Sutton Street
Uxbridge, Ma 01569
(508) 278-9762
www.pianoandorgankeys.com
mike@pianoandorgankeys.com
www.thepianorebuilders.com
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <pmc033@earthlink.net>
To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Old Kranich and Bach Grand


> Years ago, I used CA glue to attempt to repair some S&S jacks that had
> become loose.  It worked, or at least it did for a while until I visited
> the piano a few months ago.  Many of the jacks were failing.  With this
> experience, I would not recommend using CA glue on wood joints.  It
> penetrates the wood, making it doubtful that subsequently using wood glue
> would create a reliable bond.  The glue that Coleman sells, which is a
> combination epoxy/CA, might work, but in any case I would disassemble the
> parts, apply the glue, and reassemble them.  Dripping thin CA glue might
> fill the gap, but a good bond with thin CA glue never worked well for me.
> YMMV,
> Paul McCloud
> San Diego
>
>
>> [Original Message]
>> From: Dean May <deanmay@pianorebuilders.com>
>> To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
>> Date: 07/25/2009 6:15:03 PM
>> Subject: Re: [pianotech] Old Kranich and Bach Grand
>>
>> Spray first with accelerator, wait a minute, then a tiny drop of thin CA
> on
>> all the joints. Problem solved.
>>
>> Dean
>>
>> Dean May             cell 812.239.3359
>>
>> PianoRebuilders.com   812.235.5272
>>
>> Terre Haute IN  47802
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On
> Behalf
>> Of Clark A. Sprague
>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 8:35 PM
>> To: pianotech@ptg.org
>> Subject: [pianotech] Old Kranich and Bach Grand
>>
>>
>> Hi, all!  It sure was nice to see a lot of you at Grand Rapids, and to 
>> put
>> faces with names.  What a great resource this list is.
>>     That said, I went to an old Kranich and Bach grand today, that had 
>> the
>> board shimmed, new pinblock, new hammers with shanks and flanges.  But,
>> alas, not new whippens.  The old things are letting go glue joints,
> notably
>> the jack tenders.  Whoever did the job meticulously replaced all those
>> notorious little spring cords, but now glue joints are failing.
>>     Having talked about new whippens with the customer,  nothing in the
>> Renner kit works, or the Pianotek catalog, or the new WNG kit so
> graciously
>> given out in GR.  It seems that the K&B whip is shorter in the distance
> from
>> the flange center to the jack center.
>>     Anybody ever modify whips to accomplish the task?  Or what?   Besides
>> the obvious answer of a match and some flammable liquid!  Customer seems
> to
>> want to spend the money.
>>
>> Clark A. Sprague, RPT
>> csprague4@woh.rr.com
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> 

From "Clark Sprague" <CSPRAGUE4@woh.rr.com>

Thank you Paul and Mike.  I know that Ed Sutton is right when he says that 
the regulation needs to be addressed first, if any successful repairs are to 
be done.  I was hoping to just get rid of the problems, but judging the 
replies that have come in, this just isn't going to be in the cards.  Unless 
there is someone out there that can enlighten me on the question, is there a 
source of replacement parts, or is it feasible to alter what is out there to 
make them work?
     Wim suggested just replacing the jacks, and the only thing about that, 
is that there is a little protruding piece on the back of the jack, that 
holds the butterfly spring in place.  I would have to deal with that; maybe 
that is not so big a deal?

Clark A. Sprague

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <pmc033@earthlink.net>
To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Old Kranich and Bach Grand


> Years ago, I used CA glue to attempt to repair some S&S jacks that had
> become loose.  It worked, or at least it did for a while until I visited
> the piano a few months ago.  Many of the jacks were failing.  With this
> experience, I would not recommend using CA glue on wood joints.
 The glue that Coleman sells, which is a
> combination epoxy/CA, might work, but in any case I would disassemble the
> parts, apply the glue, and reassemble them.  Dripping thin CA glue might
> fill the gap, but a good bond with thin CA glue never worked well for me.
> YMMV,
> Paul McCloud
> San Diego
>
>

From Mike Spalding <mike.spalding1@verizon.net>

Clark,

This guy makes custom action parts -

NEHLSEN, PETER J. RPT <http://www.ptg.org/becomingATech-whatIsRPT.php>

*Address:* WASHINGTON ISLAND, WI 54246 USA
*Chapter:* Appleton, WI
*Phone:* 920-847-2034

Mike

Clark Sprague wrote:
> Thank you Paul and Mike.  I know that Ed Sutton is right when he says 
> that the regulation needs to be addressed first, if any successful 
> repairs are to be done.  I was hoping to just get rid of the problems, 
> but judging the replies that have come in, this just isn't going to be 
> in the cards.  Unless there is someone out there that can enlighten me 
> on the question, is there a source of replacement parts, or is it 
> feasible to alter what is out there to make them work?
>     Wim suggested just replacing the jacks, and the only thing about 
> that, is that there is a little protruding piece on the back of the 
> jack, that holds the butterfly spring in place.  I would have to deal 
> with that; maybe that is not so big a deal?
>
> Clark A. Sprague
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: <pmc033@earthlink.net>
> To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 10:16 AM
> Subject: Re: [pianotech] Old Kranich and Bach Grand
>
>
>> Years ago, I used CA glue to attempt to repair some S&S jacks that had
>> become loose.  It worked, or at least it did for a while until I visited
>> the piano a few months ago.  Many of the jacks were failing.  With this
>> experience, I would not recommend using CA glue on wood joints.
> The glue that Coleman sells, which is a
>> combination epoxy/CA, might work, but in any case I would disassemble 
>> the
>> parts, apply the glue, and reassemble them.  Dripping thin CA glue might
>> fill the gap, but a good bond with thin CA glue never worked well for 
>> me.
>> YMMV,
>> Paul McCloud
>> San Diego
>>
>>
>
>

From "Dean May" <deanmay@pianorebuilders.com>

Yes, the thin CA will penetrate the wood and not leave enough in the joint.
This is why it is important to use accelerator on wood to wood joints. The
accelerator will set up the glue before it all absorbs. 

I like to spray the accelerator and let it sit for a few seconds so the glue
doesn't set up instantly. I want a little absorption into the wood. Like
many other glues once you've used it often enough you get a feel for how to
use it in a way that works for you. I've tracked these repairs now for more
than 15 years and feel really good about the success rate. 

It works especially well on the two piece jacks that come loose at the glue
joints. I routinely add a drop of CA to those joints on every action of that
style that comes across my bench, even if they are not yet exhibiting signs
of loosening. 

For a little extra reinforcement on a wood break you can put a thin piece of
paper on either side of the break. Soak the paper with CA.

Dean

Dean May             cell 812.239.3359 

PianoRebuilders.com   812.235.5272 

Terre Haute IN  47802

 


-----Original Message-----
From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
Of pmc033@earthlink.net
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 10:17 AM
To: pianotech@ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Old Kranich and Bach Grand

Years ago, I used CA glue to attempt to repair some S&S jacks that had
become loose.  It worked, or at least it did for a while until I visited
the piano a few months ago.  Many of the jacks were failing.  With this
experience, I would not recommend using CA glue on wood joints.  It
penetrates the wood, making it doubtful that subsequently using wood glue
would create a reliable bond.  The glue that Coleman sells, which is a
combination epoxy/CA, might work, but in any case I would disassemble the
parts, apply the glue, and reassemble them.  Dripping thin CA glue might
fill the gap, but a good bond with thin CA glue never worked well for me.
	YMMV,
	Paul McCloud
	San Diego


> [Original Message]
> From: Dean May <deanmay@pianorebuilders.com>
> To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
> Date: 07/25/2009 6:15:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [pianotech] Old Kranich and Bach Grand
>
> Spray first with accelerator, wait a minute, then a tiny drop of thin CA
on
> all the joints. Problem solved. 
>
> Dean
>
> Dean May             cell 812.239.3359 
>
> PianoRebuilders.com   812.235.5272 
>
> Terre Haute IN  47802
>
>  
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On
Behalf
> Of Clark A. Sprague
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 8:35 PM
> To: pianotech@ptg.org
> Subject: [pianotech] Old Kranich and Bach Grand
>
>   
> Hi, all!  It sure was nice to see a lot of you at Grand Rapids, and to put
> faces with names.  What a great resource this list is.
>     That said, I went to an old Kranich and Bach grand today, that had the
> board shimmed, new pinblock, new hammers with shanks and flanges.  But,
> alas, not new whippens.  The old things are letting go glue joints,
notably
> the jack tenders.  Whoever did the job meticulously replaced all those
> notorious little spring cords, but now glue joints are failing.
>     Having talked about new whippens with the customer,  nothing in the
> Renner kit works, or the Pianotek catalog, or the new WNG kit so
graciously
> given out in GR.  It seems that the K&B whip is shorter in the distance
from
> the flange center to the jack center.
>     Anybody ever modify whips to accomplish the task?  Or what?   Besides
> the obvious answer of a match and some flammable liquid!  Customer seems
to
> want to spend the money.
>  
> Clark A. Sprague, RPT
> csprague4@woh.rr.com
>      
>     
>

From JWyatt1492@aol.com

Hello Clark,
 
   If you cannot get new  jacks I would  suggest using 
new  Baldwin  " regular " jacks. I have used  them for 
years.  The   "spiral "rep. spring fits perfectly into the 
hole at the  back of  the Baldwin  jack    SCHAFF  #  
 24541E
 
   There is one addition you will have to make. The _K@B_ (mailto:K@B) 
jack adjustment in the rep. window is at the  bottom of the 
 whip. under the jack   For a long time I  would glue a  wood
 "tip" cut from a shank under the new jack..  
   
      However I  found that it was easer to  use screws, the 
longer, ones from the  brass seizure of  upright dampers  or 
brass  flange repair clips screwed in to a small hole drilled 
into the bottom of jack. I also changed the wood adjustment 
buttons on the whip to leather (  the old  wood buttons  tend
to break).
   _K@B_ (mailto:K@B)   action tendencies, The  small sliding  medal rods 
that are used to change the hammer blow distance are bad 
about squeaking I suggest you replace the leather.   
    Also they are prone to have a heavy touch I suggest  you
install very light hammers no more than ten grams or  less 
 at the # one hammer.   On this  action  you  can lower the
down weight  from one to two grams by clipping the  centers.   
     
     To the  person  who   wanted a little back ground on this 
Co.  I will do some research  tonight send something  tomorrow.
 
 Hope this helps-- Regards  to all,
 
Jack Wyatt
Dallas
 
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