PianoTech Archive

From lim hock seng <limhseng@gmail.com>

Hi,
My 1st encounter with the brass flange on a SnS '40' upright. Its a little
sluggish on the last 2 octaves. Questions:
1. What would be the normal number of swings for these kind of flanges?
2. Are repinning steps the same for wooden flanges?
Thanks!
Lim

From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>

On 4/6/2012 8:57 AM, lim hock seng wrote:
> Hi,
> My 1st encounter with the brass flange on a SnS '40' upright. Its a
> little sluggish on the last 2 octaves. Questions:
> 1. What would be the normal number of swings for these kind of flanges?
> 2. Are repinning steps the same for wooden flanges?
> Thanks!
> Lim


Flanges have nothing to do with swings, bushings do, and the bushings 
are nothing special.

These are Billings flanges, yet another ill conceived aberration in an 
industry that seems to collect them. Lacking the resilience of wood, 
they hold the pin by a clamping action as the screw presses the front 
and back together. Repinning requires prying the fold open slightly to 
release the pin, which also risks breaking the flange at the fold. I 
don't know that anyone even still sells Billings flanges anymore, do 
they? Last I saw was from APSCO, I think, and they were so very poorly 
made as to be unusable.

Ron N

From "Delwin D Fandrich" 

From David Skolnik <davidskolnik@optonline.net>

Lim -
In my limited experience with these flanges, I actually found them 
somewhat tech-friendly.  For example, I like not having to completely 
remove the flange screw when removing the hammer assembly.  I like 
that I can space the hammers by slightly loosening screw and, using a 
screwdriver blade, prying the flange in the desired direction.  Ron 
is obviously correct that swing-count is not a suitable unit of 
measurement to assess the pinning friction.  Since you're dealing 
with some limited amount of sluggishness, why not try a few 
applications of naptha, along with 'working' the flange, maybe some 
heat, and maybe some Protek?    I'm not sure how difficult repinning 
would be, if you did have to do so, but flanges would probably not be 
as tolerant of larger size pins as wood flanges.  Schaff lists them 
in their catalog (Maroon cover, Pg. 128, Part #512.)  Don says 
they're not left over APSCO and that they're good, so take that for 
what it's worth.

If repinning, main concern is to not have any side to side slop.  I'm 
guessing that, if you around 4 swings (holding assembly upside down 
using un-cut centerpin in pin-vise), you should be pretty good.

Luck -

David Skolnik
Hastings on Hudson, NY



At 11:00 AM 4/6/2012, you wrote:
>On 4/6/2012 8:57 AM, lim hock seng wrote:
>>Hi,
>>My 1st encounter with the brass flange on a SnS '40' upright. Its a
>>little sluggish on the last 2 octaves. Questions:
>>1. What would be the normal number of swings for these kind of flanges?
>>2. Are repinning steps the same for wooden flanges?
>>Thanks!
>>Lim
>
>
>Flanges have nothing to do with swings, bushings do, and the 
>bushings are nothing special.
>
>These are Billings flanges, yet another ill conceived aberration in 
>an industry that seems to collect them. Lacking the resilience of 
>wood, they hold the pin by a clamping action as the screw presses 
>the front and back together. Repinning requires prying the fold open 
>slightly to release the pin, which also risks breaking the flange at 
>the fold. I don't know that anyone even still sells Billings flanges 
>anymore, do they? Last I saw was from APSCO, I think, and they were 
>so very poorly made as to be unusable.
>
>Ron N

From lim hock seng <limhseng@gmail.com>

Thank you all for the information. Will prepare for the unexpected :).
Oh another question-why would SnS use these Billings flanges?
Lim

On 06-Apr-2012 11:37 PM, "David Skolnik" <davidskolnik@optonline.net> wrote:

 Lim -
In my limited experience with these flanges, I actually found them somewhat
tech-friendly.  For example, I like not having to completely remove the
flange screw when removing the hammer assembly.  I like that I can space
the hammers by *slightly* loosening screw and, using a screwdriver blade,
prying the flange in the desired direction.  Ron is obviously correct that
swing-count is not a suitable unit of measurement to assess the pinning
friction.  Since you're dealing with some limited amount of sluggishness,
why not try a few applications of naptha, along with 'working' the flange,
maybe some heat, and maybe some Protek?    I'm not sure how difficult
repinning would be, if you did have to do so, but flanges would probably
not be as tolerant of larger size pins as wood flanges.  Schaff lists them
in their catalog (Maroon cover, Pg. 128, Part #512.)  Don says they're not
left over APSCO and that they're good, so take that for what it's worth.

If repinning, main concern is to not have any side to side slop.  I'm
guessing that, if you around 4 swings (holding assembly upside down using
un-cut centerpin in pin-vise), you should be pretty good.

Luck -

David Skolnik
Hastings on Hudson, NY




At 11:00 AM 4/6/2012, you wrote:
>
> On 4/6/2012 8:57 AM, lim hock seng wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>> My 1s...

From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>

On 4/6/2012 10:43 AM, David Skolnik wrote:
>Ron is
> obviously correct that swing-count is not a suitable unit of measurement
> to assess the pinning friction.

Which is not AT ALL what I said. I said the flange has nothing to do 
with the bushing fit, and commented on the flange alone. I made no 
judgement whatsoever on bushing pinning methodology, nor recommendations.

Ron

From David Skolnik <davidskolnik@optonline.net>

I know.  I just have missed being scolded, it's been a while.  I 
won't do that again.
DS


At 12:19 PM 4/6/2012, you wrote:
>On 4/6/2012 10:43 AM, David Skolnik wrote:
>>Ron is
>>obviously correct that swing-count is not a suitable unit of measurement
>>to assess the pinning friction.
>
>Which is not AT ALL what I said. I said the flange has nothing to do 
>with the bushing fit, and commented on the flange alone. I made no 
>judgement whatsoever on bushing pinning methodology, nor recommendations.
>
>Ron

From Mark Dierauf <pianotech@nhpianos.com>

I can attest to this, having broken a few years ago on a similar vintage 
S&S when I screwed them back down with a new oversized pin installed. If 
you have to go up more than a half pin size or so you may have problems.

- Mark

On 4/6/2012 11:43 AM, David Skolnik wrote:
>  but flanges would probably not be as tolerant of larger size pins as 
> wood flanges.
>
> David Skolnik
> Hastings on Hudson, NY
>
>
>
> At 11:00 AM 4/6/2012, you wrote:
>> On 4/6/2012 8:57 AM, lim hock seng wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> My 1st encounter with the brass flange on a SnS '40' upright. Its a
>>> little sluggish on the last 2 octaves. Questions:
>>> 1. What would be the normal number of swings for these kind of flanges?
>>> 2. Are repinning steps the same for wooden flanges?
>>> Thanks!
>>> Lim
>>
>>
>> Flanges have nothing to do with swings, bushings do, and the bushings 
>> are nothing special.
>>
>> These are Billings flanges, yet another ill conceived aberration in 
>> an industry that seems to collect them. Lacking the resilience of 
>> wood, they hold the pin by a clamping action as the screw presses the 
>> front and back together. Repinning requires prying the fold open 
>> slightly to release the pin, which also risks breaking the flange at 
>> the fold. I don't know that anyone even still sells Billings flanges 
>> anymore, do they? Last I saw was from APSCO, I think, and they were 
>> so very poorly made as to be unusable.
>>
>> Ron N
>

From Ed Foote <a440a@aol.com>

the pinning is happening in the felt bushings, so pin normally.  The only difference is that the pin is held by brass instead of wood. 


Ed Foote RPT
http://www.piano-tuners.org/edfoote/index.html





                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                Original Message-----
From: lim hock seng <limhseng@gmail.com>
To: pianotech <pianotech@ptg.org>
Sent: Fri, Apr 6, 2012 8:58 am
Subject: [pianotech] 1st time -SnS brass flange


Hi,
My 1st encounter with the brass flange on a SnS '40' upright. Its a little sluggish on the last 2 octaves. Questions:
1. What would be the normal number of swings for these kind of flanges?
2. Are repinning steps the same for wooden flanges?
Thanks!
Lim