PianoTech Archive

From "Jason Kanter" <jkanter@rollingball.com>

I imagine that if you "recently" tuned the piano (last week or last month or
two months ago) and now it's still "in tune" but a couple of cents sharp,
you tune it where it lies? That makes it a half-hour tuning instead of an
hour and a half, and the following week (or month or couple of months) you
again tune it where it lies, and within six months, when you have the couple
of hours, you bring it all to 440 again. Yes? Or do you keep adjusting it to
440 every time? Or sell Dampp-chasers?
 

|| ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || 
Jason Kanter . jkanter@rollingball.com
Piano tuning, regulation, repair
Serving Seattle and the San Juans
425.830.1561  


  _____  

From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
Of PJR
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:16 PM
To: Pianotech List
Subject: Re: tuning


I tune cruise ship pianos once a week.  On them you have the problem of
rocking, vibrations, salt air, hard players and continuous playing
(mechanisms).  Comes down to the fact that you tune a whenever it needs it.

Phil Ryan
Miami Beach

pianotune05 wrote: 

Hi everyone,
How often is too often to tune a piano?  I typically see twice a year, or
even every three months.  Is anything less than that necessary such as once
a month or even once a week which I 've heard of?
Marshall

From "Robin Stevens" <pianoman@westnet.com.au>

Jason..I think in the "real world" the sharp or flat factor applies mostly
to the Tenor section. Rarely, in my opinion does the piano go sharp or flat
EVENLY over the whole piano.... Here lies the problem...If the Tenor goes
sharp, do you raise the Bass and treble to match? or do you lower the Tenor
section?

Bit of..Six of one or, half a dozen of the other!

Robin Stevens ARPT
South Australia







                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                Original Message-------
 
From: Jason Kanter
Date: 01/28/06 17:53:22
To: 'Pianotech List'
Subject: frequent tuning - floating pitch? was tuning
 
I imagine that if you "recently" tuned the piano (last week or last month or
two months ago) and now it's still "in tune" but a couple of cents sharp,
you tune it where it lies? That makes it a half-hour tuning instead of an
hour and a half, and the following week (or month or couple of months) you
again tune it where it lies, and within six months, when you have the couple
of hours, you bring it all to 440 again. Yes? Or do you keep adjusting it to
440 every time? Or sell Dampp-chasers?
 
|| ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || 
Jason Kanter . jkanter@rollingball.com
Piano tuning, regulation, repair
Serving Seattle and the San Juans
425.830.1561  




From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
Of PJR
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:16 PM
To: Pianotech List
Subject: Re: tuning


I tune cruise ship pianos once a week.  On them you have the problem of
rocking, vibrations, salt air, hard players and continuous playing
(mechanisms).  Comes down to the fact that you tune a whenever it needs it.

Phil Ryan
Miami Beach

pianotune05 wrote: 
Hi everyone,
How often is too often to tune a piano?  I typically see twice a year, or
even every three months.  Is anything less than that necessary such as once
a month or even once a week which I 've heard of?
Marshall


 

From "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>

At least with respect to pianos found on large cruise ships, and in my case, exclusively Yamaha C3s, whereas the low tenor does indeed swing more than the rest of the scale, if there is a significant change in weather (especially if causing the ship's heat to come on), often the entire scale will move up or down a bit fairly evenly. And for pianos on the ship, I will float the pitch anywhere between A440 and A442. I usually keep 'em pretty close to 440, but if they do go sharp a tad, I tune 'em where they are.

Hey, if you can't float the pitch on a ship..........

I find it rare that I need to adjust pitch on every string on these pianos during a tuning. I service them every other week. It seems most often that the worst case is that you only get a dozen or two "freebies" (string not needed any tension adjustment). Once in a while I don't even have to touch anything up. Often it's just cleaning up a handful of unisons. Once or twice a year I run across a piano on the cruise ship. that actually needs a pitch raise - but even that is usually only after the ship has been in dry dock for a week or so and the climate control has been shut off. Other than that, with the climate control going 24/7, and these ships being the length of three football fields, the climate tends to be very consistent on the cruise ships.

With regards to Robin's comments, when the low tenor does drift independent of the rest of the piano, most often I will be adjusting the low tenor to match the rest of the piano. But really, whatever section is between A440 or just above will be my target pitch - that way, if I have to do some pitch adjustment, and I can have a "freebie" section, I go for it!

Terry Farrell
  

                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                 Original Message ----- 

        Jason..I think in the "real world" the sharp or flat factor applies mostly to the Tenor section. Rarely, in my opinion does the piano go sharp or flat EVENLY over the whole piano.... Here lies the problem...If the Tenor goes sharp, do you raise the Bass and treble to match? or do you lower the Tenor section?

        Bit of..Six of one or, half a dozen of the other!

        Robin Stevens 

        
Original Message-------

        I imagine that if you "recently" tuned the piano (last week or last month or two months ago) and now it's still "in tune" but a couple of cents sharp, you tune it where it lies? That makes it a half-hour tuning instead of an hour and a half, and the following week (or month or couple of months) you again tune it where it lies, and within six months, when you have the couple of hours, you bring it all to 440 again. Yes? Or do you keep adjusting it to 440 every time? Or sell Dampp-chasers?
        Jason Kanter 



------------------------------------------------------------------------

        I tune cruise ship pianos once a week.  On them you have the problem of rocking, vibrations, salt air, hard players and continuous playing (mechanisms).  Comes down to the fact that you tune a whenever it needs it.

        Phil Ryan
        Miami Beach

        pianotune05 wrote: 
        Hi everyone,
        How often is too often to tune a piano?  I typically see twice a year, or even every three months.  Is anything less than that necessary such as once a month or even once a week which I 've heard of?
        Marshall


       
               
       

From "pianotune05" <pianotune05@comcast.net>

I foung this piano at the thrift store flat everywhere.  It was a piece of work, and a good practice piano.  It's still some off, and I'll go back and work on it some more.  I figure once  Ido the hard pianos, the good pianos will be a treat. 
Marshall
  

                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                 Original Message ----- 
  From: Robin Stevens 
  To: Pianotech List 
  Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 3:39 AM
  Subject: Re: frequent tuning - floating pitch? was tuning


        Jason..I think in the "real world" the sharp or flat factor applies mostly to the Tenor section. Rarely, in my opinion does the piano go sharp or flat EVENLY over the whole piano.... Here lies the problem...If the Tenor goes sharp, do you raise the Bass and treble to match? or do you lower the Tenor section?

        Bit of..Six of one or, half a dozen of the other!

        Robin Stevens ARPT
        South Australia





        
Original Message-------

        From: Jason Kanter
        Date: 01/28/06 17:53:22
        To: 'Pianotech List'
        Subject: frequent tuning - floating pitch? was tuning

        I imagine that if you "recently" tuned the piano (last week or last month or two months ago) and now it's still "in tune" but a couple of cents sharp, you tune it where it lies? That makes it a half-hour tuning instead of an hour and a half, and the following week (or month or couple of months) you again tune it where it lies, and within six months, when you have the couple of hours, you bring it all to 440 again. Yes? Or do you keep adjusting it to 440 every time? Or sell Dampp-chasers?

        || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || 
        Jason Kanter . jkanter@rollingball.com
        Piano tuning, regulation, repair
        Serving Seattle and the San Juans
        425.830.1561  




------------------------------------------------------------------------
        From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of PJR
        Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:16 PM
        To: Pianotech List
        Subject: Re: tuning


        I tune cruise ship pianos once a week.  On them you have the problem of rocking, vibrations, salt air, hard players and continuous playing (mechanisms).  Comes down to the fact that you tune a whenever it needs it.

        Phil Ryan
        Miami Beach

        pianotune05 wrote: 
        Hi everyone,
        How often is too often to tune a piano?  I typically see twice a year, or even every three months.  Is anything less than that necessary such as once a month or even once a week which I 've heard of?
        Marshall


       
               
       

From "John Formsma" <john@formsmapiano.com>

Jason,

 

I float the pitch all the time. Stability is my goal rather than having the
piano "dead-on" A440 all the time.

 

Here's the typical scenario.it's winter now and the piano is 4-5 cents flat
in the bass, -12 in the tenor, and -5 in the treble. So, I do a one-pass
tuning to A439. This way, in the summer, things will be a bit sharp of A440.
If you pitch correct all the time, the piano is not as stable. In the
summer, when the piano is sharp, I'll tune to A440 or A441, whichever will
give the best stability.

 

Now, if the piano is in a church that uses other instruments, it gets tuned
to A440. However, in certain less "critical" situations, I'll get within 2
cents of A440 depending on the season. Most people don't ever notice that
difference. Again, the goal is stability rather than being at A440 all the
time.

 

>From the perspective of most customers, they want a piano in tune with
itself, and don't really care if it's at A439 or A441. They do care about
paying extra for pitch corrections every season to have it right at A440. If
I see other instruments like a guitar or violin near the piano, I'll ask the
customer's preference first. Yes, I do offer DC systems.

 

John Formsma

 

  _____  

From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
Of Jason Kanter
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 1:22 AM
To: 'Pianotech List'
Subject: frequent tuning - floating pitch? was tuning

 

I imagine that if you "recently" tuned the piano (last week or last month or
two months ago) and now it's still "in tune" but a couple of cents sharp,
you tune it where it lies? That makes it a half-hour tuning instead of an
hour and a half, and the following week (or month or couple of months) you
again tune it where it lies, and within six months, when you have the couple
of hours, you bring it all to 440 again. Yes? Or do you keep adjusting it to
440 every time? Or sell Dampp-chasers?

 

|| ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || 
Jason Kanter . jkanter@rollingball.com
Piano tuning, regulation, repair
Serving Seattle and the San Juans
425.830.1561  

 

  _____  

From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
Of PJR
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:16 PM
To: Pianotech List
Subject: Re: tuning

I tune cruise ship pianos once a week.  On them you have the problem of
rocking, vibrations, salt air, hard players and continuous playing
(mechanisms).  Comes down to the fact that you tune a whenever it needs it.

Phil Ryan
Miami Beach

pianotune05 wrote: 

Hi everyone,

How often is too often to tune a piano?  I typically see twice a year, or
even every three months.  Is anything less than that necessary such as once
a month or even once a week which I 've heard of?

Marshall

 

From "pianotune05" <pianotune05@comcast.net>

I think this might be m problem with speed in tuning.  As I'm learning this awesome trade, I'm finding that I need to raise pitch on any practice piano.  For some reason, I feel like I'm doing less quality work etc if I were to leave it flat or sharp, flat in most cases.  It's a perfectionist thing.  I feel as if it's not a440, I'm doing a poor job and m ycollegues with more experience are saying, "it's not a440."  So how do I just tune for the sake of tuning and gaining experience without the necessity to match it to a440?  
Marshall
  

                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                 Original Message ----- 
  From: John Formsma 
  To: 'Pianotech List' 
  Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 8:16 AM
  Subject: RE: frequent tuning - floating pitch? was tuning


  Jason,

   

  I float the pitch all the time. Stability is my goal rather than having the piano "dead-on" A440 all the time.

   

  Here's the typical scenario.it's winter now and the piano is 4-5 cents flat in the bass, -12 in the tenor, and -5 in the treble. So, I do a one-pass tuning to A439. This way, in the summer, things will be a bit sharp of A440. If you pitch correct all the time, the piano is not as stable. In the summer, when the piano is sharp, I'll tune to A440 or A441, whichever will give the best stability.

   

  Now, if the piano is in a church that uses other instruments, it gets tuned to A440. However, in certain less "critical" situations, I'll get within 2 cents of A440 depending on the season. Most people don't ever notice that difference. Again, the goal is stability rather than being at A440 all the time.

   

  From the perspective of most customers, they want a piano in tune with itself, and don't really care if it's at A439 or A441. They do care about paying extra for pitch corrections every season to have it right at A440. If I see other instruments like a guitar or violin near the piano, I'll ask the customer's preference first. Yes, I do offer DC systems.

   

  John Formsma

   


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of Jason Kanter
  Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 1:22 AM
  To: 'Pianotech List'
  Subject: frequent tuning - floating pitch? was tuning

   

  I imagine that if you "recently" tuned the piano (last week or last month or two months ago) and now it's still "in tune" but a couple of cents sharp, you tune it where it lies? That makes it a half-hour tuning instead of an hour and a half, and the following week (or month or couple of months) you again tune it where it lies, and within six months, when you have the couple of hours, you bring it all to 440 again. Yes? Or do you keep adjusting it to 440 every time? Or sell Dampp-chasers?

   

  || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || 
  Jason Kanter . jkanter@rollingball.com
  Piano tuning, regulation, repair
  Serving Seattle and the San Juans
  425.830.1561  

   


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of PJR
  Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:16 PM
  To: Pianotech List
  Subject: Re: tuning

  I tune cruise ship pianos once a week.  On them you have the problem of rocking, vibrations, salt air, hard players and continuous playing (mechanisms).  Comes down to the fact that you tune a whenever it needs it.

  Phil Ryan
  Miami Beach

  pianotune05 wrote: 

  Hi everyone,

  How often is too often to tune a piano?  I typically see twice a year, or even every three months.  Is anything less than that necessary such as once a month or even once a week which I 've heard of?

  Marshall

   

From Avery <avery1@houston.rr.com>

At 08:35 AM 1/28/2006, you wrote:
>I think this might be m problem with speed in 
>tuning.  As I'm learning this awesome trade, I'm 
>finding that I need to raise pitch on any 
>practice piano.  For some reason, I feel like 
>I'm doing less quality work etc if I were to 
>leave it flat or sharp, flat in most cases.

If you're trying to do good work, DON'T leave it flat or sharp!

>It's a perfectionist thing.  I feel as if it's 
>not a440, I'm doing a poor job and my collegues 
>with more experience are saying, "it's not 
>a440."  So how do I just tune for the sake of 
>tuning and gaining experience without the necessity to match it to a440?

That's part of the learning! Just pull it A-440 
(& a little sharp, if possible) as fast as you 
can go. THEN go back and tune it to A-440. That's 
the only way you can if it's that flat!

Avery

>Marshall
>

                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                 Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:john@formsmapiano.com>John Formsma
>To: <mailto:pianotech@ptg.org>'Pianotech List'
>Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 8:16 AM
>Subject: RE: frequent tuning - floating pitch? was tuning
>
>Jason,
>
>I float the pitch all the time. Stability is my 
>goal rather than having the piano ?dead-on? A440 all the time.
>
>Here?s the typical scenario?it?s winter now and 
>the piano is 4-5 cents flat in the bass, -12 in 
>the tenor, and -5 in the treble. So, I do a 
>one-pass tuning to A439. This way, in the 
>summer, things will be a bit sharp of A440. If 
>you pitch correct all the time, the piano is not 
>as stable. In the summer, when the piano is 
>sharp, I?ll tune to A440 or A441, whichever will give the best stability.
>
>Now, if the piano is in a church that uses other 
>instruments, it gets tuned to A440. However, in 
>certain less ?critical? situations, I?ll get 
>within 2 cents of A440 depending on the season. 
>Most people don?t ever notice that difference. 
>Again, the goal is stability rather than being at A440 all the time.
>
> From the perspective of most customers, they 
> want a piano in tune with itself, and don?t 
> really care if it?s at A439 or A441. They do 
> care about paying extra for pitch corrections 
> every season to have it right at A440. If I see 
> other instruments like a guitar or violin near 
> the piano, I?ll ask the customer?s preference 
> first. Yes, I do offer DC systems.
>
>John Formsma
>
>
>----------
>From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org 
>[mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of Jason Kanter
>Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 1:22 AM
>To: 'Pianotech List'
>Subject: frequent tuning - floating pitch? was tuning
>
>I imagine that if you "recently" tuned the piano 
>(last week or last month or two months ago) and 
>now it's still "in tune" but a couple of cents 
>sharp, you tune it where it lies? That makes it 
>a half-hour tuning instead of an hour and a 
>half, and the following week (or month or couple 
>of months) you again tune it where it lies, and 
>within six months, when you have the couple of 
>hours, you bring it all to 440 again. Yes? Or do 
>you keep adjusting it to 440 every time? Or sell Dampp-chasers?
>
>
>|| ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| ||
>Jason Kanter . jkanter@rollingball.com
>Piano tuning, regulation, repair
>Serving Seattle and the San Juans
>425.830.1561
>
>
>----------
>From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org 
>[mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of PJR
>Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:16 PM
>To: Pianotech List
>Subject: Re: tuning
>I tune cruise ship pianos once a week.  On them 
>you have the problem of rocking, vibrations, 
>salt air, hard players and continuous playing 
>(mechanisms).  Comes down to the fact that you tune a whenever it needs it.
>
>Phil Ryan
>Miami Beach
>
>pianotune05 wrote:
>Hi everyone,
>How often is too often to tune a piano?  I 
>typically see twice a year, or even every three 
>months.  Is anything less than that necessary 
>such as once a month or even once a week which I 've heard of?
>Marshall
>

From Avery <avery1@houston.rr.com>

I should have said: "barring floating the pitch 
for whatever reason". I do. But I work at a university. :-)

Avery

At 01:12 PM 1/28/2006, you wrote:
>At 08:35 AM 1/28/2006, you wrote:
>>I think this might be m problem with speed in 
>>tuning.  As I'm learning this awesome trade, 
>>I'm finding that I need to raise pitch on any 
>>practice piano.  For some reason, I feel like 
>>I'm doing less quality work etc if I were to 
>>leave it flat or sharp, flat in most cases.
>
>If you're trying to do good work, DON'T leave it flat or sharp!
>
>>It's a perfectionist thing.  I feel as if it's 
>>not a440, I'm doing a poor job and my collegues 
>>with more experience are saying, "it's not 
>>a440."  So how do I just tune for the sake of 
>>tuning and gaining experience without the necessity to match it to a440?
>
>That's part of the learning! Just pull it A-440 
>(& a little sharp, if possible) as fast as you 
>can go. THEN go back and tune it to A-440. 
>That's the only way you can if it's that flat!
>
>Avery
>
>>Marshall
>>

                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                 Original Message -----
>>From: <mailto:john@formsmapiano.com>John Formsma
>>To: <mailto:pianotech@ptg.org>'Pianotech List'
>>Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 8:16 AM
>>Subject: RE: frequent tuning - floating pitch? was tuning
>>
>>Jason,
>>
>>I float the pitch all the time. Stability is my 
>>goal rather than having the piano ?dead-on? A440 all the time.
>>
>>Here?s the typical scenario?it?s winter now and 
>>the piano is 4-5 cents flat in the bass, -12 in 
>>the tenor, and -5 in the treble. So, I do a 
>>one-pass tuning to A439. This way, in the 
>>summer, things will be a bit sharp of A440. If 
>>you pitch correct all the time, the piano is 
>>not as stable. In the summer, when the piano is 
>>sharp, I?ll tune to A440 or A441, whichever will give the best stability.
>>
>>Now, if the piano is in a church that uses 
>>other instruments, it gets tuned to A440. 
>>However, in certain less ?critical? situations, 
>>I?ll get within 2 cents of A440 depending on 
>>the season. Most people don?t ever notice that 
>>difference. Again, the goal is stability rather 
>>than being at A440 all the time.
>>
>> From the perspective of most customers, they 
>> want a piano in tune with itself, and don?t 
>> really care if it?s at A439 or A441. They do 
>> care about paying extra for pitch corrections 
>> every season to have it right at A440. If I 
>> see other instruments like a guitar or violin 
>> near the piano, I?ll ask the customer?s 
>> preference first. Yes, I do offer DC systems.
>>
>>John Formsma
>>
>>----------
>>From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [ 
>>mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of Jason Kanter
>>Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 1:22 AM
>>To: 'Pianotech List'
>>Subject: frequent tuning - floating pitch? was tuning
>>
>>I imagine that if you "recently" tuned the 
>>piano (last week or last month or two months 
>>ago) and now it's still "in tune" but a couple 
>>of cents sharp, you tune it where it lies? That 
>>makes it a half-hour tuning instead of an hour 
>>and a half, and the following week (or month or 
>>couple of months) you again tune it where it 
>>lies, and within six months, when you have the 
>>couple of hours, you bring it all to 440 again. 
>>Yes? Or do you keep adjusting it to 440 every time? Or sell Dampp-chasers?
>>
>>|| ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| ||
>>Jason Kanter . jkanter@rollingball.com
>>Piano tuning, regulation, repair
>>Serving Seattle and the San Juans
>>425.830.1561
>>
>>----------
>>From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [ 
>>mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of PJR
>>Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:16 PM
>>To: Pianotech List
>>Subject: Re: tuning
>>I tune cruise ship pianos once a week.  On them 
>>you have the problem of rocking, vibrations, 
>>salt air, hard players and continuous playing 
>>(mechanisms).  Comes down to the fact that you tune a whenever it needs it.
>>Phil Ryan
>>Miami Beach
>>pianotune05 wrote:
>>Hi everyone,
>>How often is too often to tune a piano?  I 
>>typically see twice a year, or even every three 
>>months.  Is anything less than that necessary 
>>such as once a month or even once a week which I 've heard of?
>>Marshall
>>

From Don <pianotuna@yahoo.com>

Hi Dean,

I don't understand what you mean by this statement:

>I explain to the music minister as I am giving the
>DampChaser pitch that this will keep the piano closer to pitch most of the
>time.

DamppChaser pitch? with no DamppChaser? 

At 09:35 AM 1/28/2006 -0500, you wrote:


Regards,
Don Rose, B.Mus., A.M.U.S., A.MUS., R.P.T.
Non calor sed umor est qui nobis incommodat

mailto:pianotuna@yahoo.com	http://us.geocities.com/drpt1948/

3004 Grant Rd. REGINA, SK, S4S 5G7
306-539-0716 or 1-888-29t-uner

From Don <pianotuna@yahoo.com>

Hi Marshall,

The "way to do this" is to use a "self correcting" temperament and skip the
step where A4 is tuned to the fork.

At 09:35 AM 1/28/2006 -0500, you wrote:
> So how do I just tune for the sake of tuning and gaining experience
without the >necessity to match it to a440?  
>Marshall

Regards,
Don Rose, B.Mus., A.M.U.S., A.MUS., R.P.T.
Non calor sed umor est qui nobis incommodat

mailto:pianotuna@yahoo.com	http://us.geocities.com/drpt1948/

3004 Grant Rd. REGINA, SK, S4S 5G7
306-539-0716 or 1-888-29t-uner

From "Dean May" <deanmay@pianorebuilders.com>

I ditto what John has said here mostly. 
 
Sometimes even in a church where it is playing with other instruments I
will float the pitch. If I am seeing summer/winter swings of +/- 20
cents I will tune it to +/- 10 cents accordingly. I explain to the music
minister as I am giving the DampChaser pitch that this will keep the
piano closer to pitch most of the time. I show them my record of the
wild pitch fluctuations their piano is experiencing (obviously this only
works if you have been tuning it for a couple years and have a record)
and explain that it makes no sense to bring it up from -20 cents to 440
when that will mean it will go that much sharper in the Summer. If he
wants the piano closer to pitch we either have to go to monthly tunings
or install a full DampChaser system. 
 
But it the piano is in an environment where 440 is not critical, and if
it is a piano I have a history with so I have hard data on how it
responds to our seasons around here, I will float the pitch all the
time. I don't ask, I just do it. I may give a little explanation after
tuning as to what and why I did it along with a soft sell DampChaser
brochure. 
 
Dean
Dean May             cell 812.239.3359
PianoRebuilders.com   812.235.5272
Terre Haute IN  47802
 


                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                Original Message-----
From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On
Behalf Of John Formsma
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 8:17 AM
To: 'Pianotech List'
Subject: RE: frequent tuning - floating pitch? was tuning
 
Jason,
 
I float the pitch all the time. Stability is my goal rather than having
the piano "dead-on" A440 all the time.
 
Here's the typical scenario.it's winter now and the piano is 4-5 cents
flat in the bass, -12 in the tenor, and -5 in the treble. So, I do a
one-pass tuning to A439. This way, in the summer, things will be a bit
sharp of A440. If you pitch correct all the time, the piano is not as
stable. In the summer, when the piano is sharp, I'll tune to A440 or
A441, whichever will give the best stability.
 
Now, if the piano is in a church that uses other instruments, it gets
tuned to A440. However, in certain less "critical" situations, I'll get
within 2 cents of A440 depending on the season. Most people don't ever
notice that difference. Again, the goal is stability rather than being
at A440 all the time.
 
>From the perspective of most customers, they want a piano in tune with
itself, and don't really care if it's at A439 or A441. They do care
about paying extra for pitch corrections every season to have it right
at A440. If I see other instruments like a guitar or violin near the
piano, I'll ask the customer's preference first. Yes, I do offer DC
systems.
 
John Formsma
 
  _____  

From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On
Behalf Of Jason Kanter
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 1:22 AM
To: 'Pianotech List'
Subject: frequent tuning - floating pitch? was tuning
 
I imagine that if you "recently" tuned the piano (last week or last
month or two months ago) and now it's still "in tune" but a couple of
cents sharp, you tune it where it lies? That makes it a half-hour tuning
instead of an hour and a half, and the following week (or month or
couple of months) you again tune it where it lies, and within six
months, when you have the couple of hours, you bring it all to 440
again. Yes? Or do you keep adjusting it to 440 every time? Or sell
Dampp-chasers?
 
|| ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || 
Jason Kanter . jkanter@rollingball.com
Piano tuning, regulation, repair
Serving Seattle and the San Juans
425.830.1561  
 
  _____  

From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On
Behalf Of PJR
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:16 PM
To: Pianotech List
Subject: Re: tuning
I tune cruise ship pianos once a week.  On them you have the problem of
rocking, vibrations, salt air, hard players and continuous playing
(mechanisms).  Comes down to the fact that you tune a whenever it needs
it.

Phil Ryan
Miami Beach

pianotune05 wrote: 
Hi everyone,
How often is too often to tune a piano?  I typically see twice a year,
or even every three months.  Is anything less than that necessary such
as once a month or even once a week which I 've heard of?
Marshall
 

From "Porritt, David" <dporritt@mail.smu.edu>

Jason:
 
I do float between 440 - 442 except on the recital pianos.  Since those are often played with other instruments that are stuck at 440 I keep them there.  The rest can float but within that 2 Hz range.  I go with the pitch of A4.  If A4 is sharp the tenor will undoubtedly be even sharper but gathering the piano together where A4 is now seems to work well.
 
dp
 
__________________________
David M. Porritt, RPT
Meadows School of the Arts
Southern Methodist University
Dallas, TX 75275
dporritt@smu.edu

________________________________

From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org on behalf of Jason Kanter
Sent: Sat 1/28/2006 1:22 AM
To: 'Pianotech List'
Subject: frequent tuning - floating pitch? was tuning


I imagine that if you "recently" tuned the piano (last week or last month or two months ago) and now it's still "in tune" but a couple of cents sharp, you tune it where it lies? That makes it a half-hour tuning instead of an hour and a half, and the following week (or month or couple of months) you again tune it where it lies, and within six months, when you have the couple of hours, you bring it all to 440 again. Yes? Or do you keep adjusting it to 440 every time? Or sell Dampp-chasers?
 

|| ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || 
Jason Kanter . jkanter@rollingball.com
Piano tuning, regulation, repair
Serving Seattle and the San Juans
425.830.1561  


________________________________

From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of PJR
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:16 PM
To: Pianotech List
Subject: Re: tuning


I tune cruise ship pianos once a week.  On them you have the problem of rocking, vibrations, salt air, hard players and continuous playing (mechanisms).  Comes down to the fact that you tune a whenever it needs it.

Phil Ryan
Miami Beach

pianotune05 wrote: 

	Hi everyone,
	How often is too often to tune a piano?  I typically see twice a year, or even every three months.  Is anything less than that necessary such as once a month or even once a week which I 've heard of?
	Marshall

Attachment(s)

winmail78.dat   5 KB 1 version

From "James Grebe" <pianoman@accessus.net>

I tune at A-440 every time, regardless of how soon the last tuning was on 
frequently tuned pianos.  That is the idea of so frequent tuning that they 
be right on everytime and all the time.
James
James Grebe   Piano Tuning & Repair   Member of M.P.T.
R.P.T. of the P.T.G. for over 30 years.   "Member of the Year" in 1989
   Creator of Handsome Hardwood Caster Cups, Piano Benches, Writing 
Instruments
(314) 845-8282   1526 Raspberry Lane   Arnold, MO 63010
BECOME WHAT YOU BELIEVE!
pianoman@accessus.net


                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                 Original Message ----- 
From: "Jason Kanter" <jkanter@rollingball.com>
To: "'Pianotech List'" <pianotech@ptg.org>
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 1:22 AM
Subject: frequent tuning - floating pitch? was tuning


>I imagine that if you "recently" tuned the piano (last week or last month 
>or
> two months ago) and now it's still "in tune" but a couple of cents sharp,
> you tune it where it lies? That makes it a half-hour tuning instead of an
> hour and a half, and the following week (or month or couple of months) you
> again tune it where it lies, and within six months, when you have the 
> couple
> of hours, you bring it all to 440 again. Yes? Or do you keep adjusting it 
> to
> 440 every time? Or sell Dampp-chasers?
>
>
> || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| ||
> Jason Kanter . jkanter@rollingball.com
> Piano tuning, regulation, repair
> Serving Seattle and the San Juans
> 425.830.1561
>
>
>  _____
>
> From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On 
> Behalf
> Of PJR
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:16 PM
> To: Pianotech List
> Subject: Re: tuning
>
>
> I tune cruise ship pianos once a week.  On them you have the problem of
> rocking, vibrations, salt air, hard players and continuous playing
> (mechanisms).  Comes down to the fact that you tune a whenever it needs 
> it.
>
> Phil Ryan
> Miami Beach
>
> pianotune05 wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
> How often is too often to tune a piano?  I typically see twice a year, or
> even every three months.  Is anything less than that necessary such as 
> once
> a month or even once a week which I 've heard of?
> Marshall
>
>
> 

From timothy ehlen <tehlen@uiuc.edu>

List,

I agree with James about this.  Even though I don't 
currently tune professionally, I feel the urge to weigh in 
on this one, and I ask for your consideration of this 
point.  It seems to me that the public has a natural 
expectation (and rightly so) that a piano will be tuned at 
A440 after a professional tuning, and I question whether 
doing otherwise without explanation is even ethical.  Also, 
I question whether there isn't more interest in the 
convenience of "freebies" rather than "stability" in this 
case.  As an example, would someone pass the RPT tuning exam 
by tuning a whole piano at A339?  I doubt it.

On that point, it seems to me that this practice might be 
violating a regular customer's trust, as someone mentioned 
that "most people won't notice," or something to that 
effect.  It seems to me as a musician and teacher that there 
are essential reasons for students to hear a 440 tuning 
which go beyond the practical considerations of playing with 
other instruments.  As this is the current standard, it does 
have a bearing on pitch memory, some of which is 
psychological and intuitive in one's listening and playing.  

One further example from my own experience: when I free-
lancing in Los Angeles as a pianist/teacher/technician, I 
was fortunate enough to have a contract tuning the Steinway 
grands monthly for an upscale club.  In this case, I thought 
that it was my minimum responsibility to keep the pianos at 
440--actually, I didn't consider doing otherwise.  

Regarding the discussion about tuning frequency, it seems to 
me that there could be one argument for tuning less 
frequently, namely that the tuning pins will, over time, 
gradually lose their tightness in the pinblock.  Perhaps in 
cases of regular tunings, this is a consideration, although 
it still seems to me that any mitigating circumstances or 
considerations should be discussed with the client before 
leaving a piano at something other than A440. 

Thank you in advance for your reactions to this concern,

Tim 







                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                 Original message ----
>Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 09:06:09 -0600
>From: "James Grebe" <pianoman@accessus.net>  
>Subject: Re: frequent tuning - floating pitch? was tuning  
>To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech@ptg.org>
>
>I tune at A-440 every time, regardless of how soon the last 
tuning was on 
>frequently tuned pianos.  That is the idea of so frequent 
tuning that they 
>be right on everytime and all the time.
>James
>James Grebe   Piano Tuning & Repair   Member of M.P.T.
>R.P.T. of the P.T.G. for over 30 years.   "Member of the 
Year" in 1989
>   Creator of Handsome Hardwood Caster Cups, Piano Benches, 
Writing 
>Instruments
>(314) 845-8282   1526 Raspberry Lane   Arnold, MO 63010
>BECOME WHAT YOU BELIEVE!
>pianoman@accessus.net
>
                                            

From John Formsma <john@formsmapiano.com>

   Tim,



   In my area, if you pitch correct a piano each time it's tuned, it will
   be out of tune much more when the season changes than if you pitch
   float. Relative humidity here ranges from 20% in winter to 70% in
   summer. For me, it is about stability. I've watched this with the
   pianos I tune regularly. When I first began to tune, I was very picky
   about A440. So, when a piano was 10 cents flat in the winter, it got a
   pitch raise. Then, in the summer, it was 12 cents sharp and sounding
   awful! I eventually figured out why. :-)  In my opinion, ethics has
   little to do with it. If so, you could not "ethically" tune to A442
   when asked. And, you could never leave the piano even a tenth of a cent
   off. That's hardly practical, especially when you consider that A4
   often wanders once you've finished the tuning (unless you do 2 or more
   passes).
   If my customers want A440 every time, then they must be willing to pay
   every time for a pitch correction, or they need to get a Dampp-Chaser
   system. But, if they aren't willing to do either, then I'm going to
   pitch float because the tuning will last longer. I mark on the invoice
   what pitch it's tuned to. I've had one person ask -- and I told her
   why. It's a question of value for the customer: does the customer get
   more value with a pitch float tuning, or by a pitch correction with a
   tuning? I think the former for my area. It may be different out on the
   "left coast" -- what's the humidity like out there?



   John Formsma





     

                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                 Original Message --------
     Subject: Re: frequent tuning - floating pitch? was tuning
     From: timothy ehlen <tehlen@uiuc.edu>
     Date: Sat, January 28, 2006 1:09 pm
     To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org>
     List,
     I agree with James about this.  Even though I don't
     currently tune professionally, I feel the urge to weigh in
     on this one, and I ask for your consideration of this
     point.  It seems to me that the public has a natural
     expectation (and rightly so) that a piano will be tuned at
     A440 after a professional tuning, and I question whether
     doing otherwise without explanation is even ethical.  Also,
     I question whether there isn't more interest in the
     convenience of "freebies" rather than "stability" in this
     case.  As an example, would someone pass the RPT tuning exam
     by tuning a whole piano at A339?  I doubt it.
     On that point, it seems to me that this practice might be
     violating a regular customer's trust, as someone mentioned
     that "most people won't notice," or something to that
     effect.  It seems to me as a musician and teacher that there
     are essential reasons for students to hear a 440 tuning
     which go beyond the practical considerations of playing with
     other instruments.  As this is the current standard, it does
     have a bearing on pitch memory, some of which is
     psychological and intuitive in one's listening and playing.
     One further example from my own experience: when I free-
     lancing in Los Angeles as a pianist/teacher/technician, I
     was fortunate enough to have a contract tuning the Steinway
     grands monthly for an upscale club.  In this case, I thought
     that it was my minimum responsibility to keep the pianos at
     440--actually, I didn't consider doing otherwise.
     Regarding the discussion about tuning frequency, it seems to
     me that there could be one argument for tuning less
     frequently, namely that the tuning pins will, over time,
     gradually lose their tightness in the pinblock.  Perhaps in
     cases of regular tunings, this is a consideration, although
     it still seems to me that any mitigating circumstances or
     considerations should be discussed with the client before
     leaving a piano at something other than A440.
     Thank you in advance for your reactions to this concern,
     Tim

From "Dean May" <deanmay@pianorebuilders.com>

What he said.
 
Early in my career I was called in to tune a university piano- the first
time ever. The piano had just been moved from the basement to the third
floor and it was out something like 75 cents. I was really sweating it.
Nobody was around to authorize additional expense for a pitch correction
and I did not know what was reasonable and customary. I did not know
what the university expected from me or what their regular guy would do.
I don't really remember what I ended up doing but it was a no win for
me. The piano did not hold the tuning well and word quickly spread among
the faculty that my tunings didn't hold. Since that time stability has
become the paramount concern for me. It seems to me that is the primary
concern of most pianists. 
 
Like John, and anybody else who has tuned the same pianos twice a year
for 20 years can attest, I run across pianos that consistently go 20 or
more cents flat in the winter to 20 or more sharp in the summer. If you
put those on 440 every time the swings are huge. If you split the
difference they aren't. Anybody who has been tuning the same pianos long
enough can attest to this. 
 
For me it is a matter of professionalism, but I define it a little
differently than Tim. Most of my clients have no clue what 440 is let
alone having some kind of expectation that is where the piano will be.
They want the piano to sound good most of the time and that is what I
try to provide them within the constraints of their budgets. If they
can't spring for a DampChaser then I'll do my best to keep it as stable
as possible. 
 
Even if 440 is what they want my method keeps it closer to 440 for most
of the year. After I explain it to them in those terms they are content
with the results. 
 
Dean
Dean May             cell 812.239.3359
PianoRebuilders.com   812.235.5272
Terre Haute IN  47802
 


                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                Original Message-----
From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On
Behalf Of John Formsma
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 2:36 PM
To: Pianotech List
Subject: RE: frequent tuning - floating pitch? was tuning
 
Tim,
 
In my area, if you pitch correct a piano each time it's tuned, it will
be out of tune much more when the season changes than if you pitch
float. Relative humidity here ranges from 20% in winter to 70% in
summer. For me, it is about stability. I've watched this with the pianos
I tune regularly. When I first began to tune, I was very picky about
A440. So, when a piano was 10 cents flat in the winter, it got a pitch
raise. Then, in the summer, it was 12 cents sharp and sounding awful! I
eventually figured out why. :-)  In my opinion, ethics has little to do
with it. If so, you could not "ethically" tune to A442 when asked. And,
you could never leave the piano even a tenth of a cent off. That's
hardly practical, especially when you consider that A4 often wanders
once you've finished the tuning (unless you do 2 or more passes).

If my customers want A440 every time, then they must be willing to pay
every time for a pitch correction, or they need to get a Dampp-Chaser
system. But, if they aren't willing to do either, then I'm going to
pitch float because the tuning will last longer. I mark on the invoice
what pitch it's tuned to. I've had one person ask -- and I told her why.
It's a question of value for the customer: does the customer get more
value with a pitch float tuning, or by a pitch correction with a tuning?
I think the former for my area. It may be different out on the "left
coast" -- what's the humidity like out there?
 
John Formsma
 
 


                                            

From Don <pianotuna@yahoo.com>

Hi Tim,

The client must have full disclosure of what is happening. That's what is
ethical rather than A440. I agree that it is a standard to work towards.

The only reasonable way to keep a piano at A440 for any reasonable length
of time is to have exquisite control of humidity. 

I don't agree that frequent tunings cause unusual damage to the pin block.
There are studio pianos that are tuned daily and last for a long time. At
least where I live there is far more damage to the block due to variations
in humidity.

The old literature from Steinway recommended monthly tunings.


At 01:09 PM 1/28/2006 -0600, you wrote:
>List,
>
>It seems to me that the public has a natural 
>expectation (and rightly so) that a piano will be tuned at 
>A440 after a professional tuning, and I question whether 
>doing otherwise without explanation is even ethical.
>
>On that point, it seems to me that this practice might be 
>violating a regular customer's trust, as someone mentioned 
>that "most people won't notice," or something to that 
>effect.  It seems to me as a musician and teacher that there 
>are essential reasons for students to hear a 440 tuning 
>which go beyond the practical considerations of playing with 
>other instruments.  As this is the current standard, it does 
>have a bearing on pitch memory, some of which is 
>psychological and intuitive in one's listening and playing.  
>
>Regarding the discussion about tuning frequency, it seems to 
>me that there could be one argument for tuning less 
>frequently, namely that the tuning pins will, over time, 
>gradually lose their tightness in the pinblock.  Perhaps in 
>cases of regular tunings, this is a consideration, although 
>it still seems to me that any mitigating circumstances or 
>considerations should be discussed with the client before 
>leaving a piano at something other than A440. 
>
>Tim 


Regards,
Don Rose, B.Mus., A.M.U.S., A.MUS., R.P.T.
Non calor sed umor est qui nobis incommodat

mailto:pianotuna@yahoo.com	http://us.geocities.com/drpt1948/

3004 Grant Rd. REGINA, SK, S4S 5G7
306-539-0716 or 1-888-29t-uner

From Jon Page <jonpage@comcast.net>

I realize that some tuners prize the opportunity for pitch correction
and tuning then boast about the money making venture.

For the most part, I see that as a disservice to the customer.
I'm not referring to major pitch corrections of a quarter to half
tone flat but within 2 to 4 beats either side.

Unless there is a compelling reason to maintain 440 because of
playing with fixed-pitch instruments or a Pianomation or similar;
floating the pitch benefits the customer financially and reduces pin
wrenching on the piano. The tuning is more stable having not
subjected the piano to a tension change.

For those compelled to set the piano to 440 at a tuning consider
where the pitch will reside between tunings. I instruct the owners
that if I tune it to 438 now that it will traverse through 440 as the
humidity elevates and ending up sharp of 440. Then the tuning
during high humidity will be at 442 or 444 depending on the
fluctuation. Once I know the range, I can tune it seasonally to
maintain a 440 median, also taking into account the relative
position of the bass and treble; levelling off. I strive for the least
overall tension change.

Where there has been a financial concern but not a pitch concern,
I have pulled it up the maximum amount to be still left with an
appreciable tuning. Over a few years the piano is at pitch.
Or yanked it up for beginners' ear training sacrificing the extremes;
they'll be pulled-in with subsequent tunings as the students progress.

You can pull it up 4 bps (16 cents) and be left with an appreciable tuning.
-- 

Regards,

Jon Page

From "pianotune05" <pianotune05@comcast.net>

When I approach a practice piano or a paid tuning for that matter where the 
piano is way way way flat or sharp, it's best to leave it alone?  Do I just 
tune that piano to whatever pitch the a49 is, and forget matching it to the 
fork?
Marshall


                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                 Original Message ----- 
From: "Jon Page" <jonpage@comcast.net>
To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 8:45 PM
Subject: frequent tuning - floating pitch? was tuning


>I realize that some tuners prize the opportunity for pitch correction
> and tuning then boast about the money making venture.
>
> For the most part, I see that as a disservice to the customer.
> I'm not referring to major pitch corrections of a quarter to half
> tone flat but within 2 to 4 beats either side.
>
> Unless there is a compelling reason to maintain 440 because of
> playing with fixed-pitch instruments or a Pianomation or similar;
> floating the pitch benefits the customer financially and reduces pin
> wrenching on the piano. The tuning is more stable having not
> subjected the piano to a tension change.
>
> For those compelled to set the piano to 440 at a tuning consider
> where the pitch will reside between tunings. I instruct the owners
> that if I tune it to 438 now that it will traverse through 440 as the
> humidity elevates and ending up sharp of 440. Then the tuning
> during high humidity will be at 442 or 444 depending on the
> fluctuation. Once I know the range, I can tune it seasonally to
> maintain a 440 median, also taking into account the relative
> position of the bass and treble; levelling off. I strive for the least
> overall tension change.
>
> Where there has been a financial concern but not a pitch concern,
> I have pulled it up the maximum amount to be still left with an
> appreciable tuning. Over a few years the piano is at pitch.
> Or yanked it up for beginners' ear training sacrificing the extremes;
> they'll be pulled-in with subsequent tunings as the students progress.
>
> You can pull it up 4 bps (16 cents) and be left with an appreciable 
> tuning.
> -- 
>
> Regards,
>
> Jon Page
> _______________________________________________
> Pianotech list info: http://www.ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/pianotech 

From "James Grebe" <pianoman@accessus.net>

Hi Jon,
In my opinion, the problem with that scenario is that as the piano passes 
through A-440 not all of the piano moves the same.  In the mid west where 
humidity changes are great, the middle 2/3's moves the most so though the 
pitch changes through the season the middle moves more than the ends..  I 
have found the only time the piano is at whatever pitch you tune it is when 
you are finished, not several weeks after.
James
James Grebe   Piano Tuning & Repair   Member of M.P.T.
R.P.T. of the P.T.G. for over 30 years.   "Member of the Year" in 1989
   Creator of Handsome Hardwood Caster Cups, Piano Benches, Writing 
Instruments
(314) 845-8282   1526 Raspberry Lane   Arnold, MO 63010
BECOME WHAT YOU BELIEVE!
pianoman@accessus.net


                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                 Original Message ----- 
From: "Jon Page" <jonpage@comcast.net>
To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 7:45 PM
Subject: frequent tuning - floating pitch? was tuning


>I realize that some tuners prize the opportunity for pitch correction
> and tuning then boast about the money making venture.
>
> For the most part, I see that as a disservice to the customer.
> I'm not referring to major pitch corrections of a quarter to half
> tone flat but within 2 to 4 beats either side.
>
> Unless there is a compelling reason to maintain 440 because of
> playing with fixed-pitch instruments or a Pianomation or similar;
> floating the pitch benefits the customer financially and reduces pin
> wrenching on the piano. The tuning is more stable having not
> subjected the piano to a tension change.
>
> For those compelled to set the piano to 440 at a tuning consider
> where the pitch will reside between tunings. I instruct the owners
> that if I tune it to 438 now that it will traverse through 440 as the
> humidity elevates and ending up sharp of 440. Then the tuning
> during high humidity will be at 442 or 444 depending on the
> fluctuation. Once I know the range, I can tune it seasonally to
> maintain a 440 median, also taking into account the relative
> position of the bass and treble; levelling off. I strive for the least
> overall tension change.
>
> Where there has been a financial concern but not a pitch concern,
> I have pulled it up the maximum amount to be still left with an
> appreciable tuning. Over a few years the piano is at pitch.
> Or yanked it up for beginners' ear training sacrificing the extremes;
> they'll be pulled-in with subsequent tunings as the students progress.
>
> You can pull it up 4 bps (16 cents) and be left with an appreciable 
> tuning.
> -- 
>
> Regards,
>
> Jon Page
> _______________________________________________
> Pianotech list info: http://www.ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/pianotech
> 

From Nichols <nicho@zianet.com>

Jon, and other pitch-floater rationalizers,
    More power to you, and all your points are understood and well-taken. I 
would like to point out one observation, though, from tuning pianos to 
440....  I've found that in a lot of cases, a piano that is allowed to 
float is more likely to float. I do both, of course, to fit the situation. 
Many of my gigs require 440, and quite a few are allowed to float a little 
bit,(usually matching the bass). What I've noticed is that piano that 
always hits 440 will be more likely to stay near there, just as floaters 
float. I don't think that the extra "cranking" is excessive, unless there's 
a real pin tightness problem anyway. I have always believed that there's a 
stability factor at the pressure zones and rendering areas. When I tune a 
piano that had many tunings in it's initial years, it seems to know where 
it belongs, even after it's been allowed to go way flat. You can feel it. 
When I tune a piano that I displayed and used as a recital piano for six 
months or more, with lots of initial tunings, the dern things stay put forever.

Just an observation, as I said.

Guy

At 08:45 PM 1/28/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>I realize that some tuners prize the opportunity for pitch correction
>and tuning then boast about the money making venture.
>
>For the most part, I see that as a disservice to the customer.
>I'm not referring to major pitch corrections of a quarter to half
>tone flat but within 2 to 4 beats either side.
>
>Unless there is a compelling reason to maintain 440 because of
>playing with fixed-pitch instruments or a Pianomation or similar;
>floating the pitch benefits the customer financially and reduces pin
>wrenching on the piano. The tuning is more stable having not
>subjected the piano to a tension change.
>
>For those compelled to set the piano to 440 at a tuning consider
>where the pitch will reside between tunings. I instruct the owners
>that if I tune it to 438 now that it will traverse through 440 as the
>humidity elevates and ending up sharp of 440. Then the tuning
>during high humidity will be at 442 or 444 depending on the
>fluctuation. Once I know the range, I can tune it seasonally to
>maintain a 440 median, also taking into account the relative
>position of the bass and treble; levelling off. I strive for the least
>overall tension change.
>
>Where there has been a financial concern but not a pitch concern,
>I have pulled it up the maximum amount to be still left with an
>appreciable tuning. Over a few years the piano is at pitch.
>Or yanked it up for beginners' ear training sacrificing the extremes;
>they'll be pulled-in with subsequent tunings as the students progress.
>
>You can pull it up 4 bps (16 cents) and be left with an appreciable tuning.
>--
>
>Regards,
>
>Jon Page
>_______________________________________________
>Pianotech list info: http://www.ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/pianotech
>

From "David Love" <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>

I wish I could say I had a standard approach.  If the piano is uniformly
sharp or flat by a nominal amount, I am sometimes inclined to correct only
to the degree that I can without a preliminary pitch correction before fine
tuning.  On concert instruments that I'm tuning regularly, a one or two cent
shift is not uncommon especially in a churches where the environment is not
regulated well.  In such cases, I am more inclined to leave the piano where
it is rather than go through a pitch correction which can often be
destabilizing.  You have to make judgment calls in this business within and
between tunings.  Being inflexible, when it comes to pitch, more often than
not makes your life more difficult than it needs to be--within reason, of
course.   

David Love
davidlovepianos@comcast.net 



                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                Original Message-----
From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
Of pianotune05
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 7:09 PM
To: Pianotech List
Subject: Re: frequent tuning - floating pitch? was tuning

When I approach a practice piano or a paid tuning for that matter where the 
piano is way way way flat or sharp, it's best to leave it alone?  Do I just 
tune that piano to whatever pitch the a49 is, and forget matching it to the 
fork?
Marshall

                                            

From "jere fryett" <jerefryett@hotmail.com>

>From: "Dean May" <deanmay@pianorebuilders.com>
>Reply-To: deanmay@pianorebuilders.com, Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org>
>To: "'Pianotech List'" <pianotech@ptg.org>
>Subject: RE: frequent tuning - floating pitch? was tuning
>Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 16:07:22 -0500
.
>
>Like John, and anybody else who has tuned the same pianos twice a year
>for 20 years can attest, I run across pianos that consistently go 20 or
>more cents flat in the winter to 20 or more sharp in the summer. If you
>put those on 440 every time the swings are huge. If you split the
>difference they aren't. Anybody who has been tuning the same pianos long
>enough can attest to this.
>

Hi,

What do you University tuners do in cases like this?  Would you tune all 
pianos to 440 all the time, or would you be selective, i.e., float the 
practice rooms, 440 for the teachers studios, etc.

I have been tuning all the University pianos to 440 (three times a year) and 
find myself doing huge pitch raises or lowering, depending upon the time of 
year.

Jere

_________________________________________________________________
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From Conrad Hoffsommer <hoffsoco@luther.edu>

At 23:17 1/28/2006, you wrote:

>Hi,
>
>What do you University tuners do in cases like this?  Would you tune all 
>pianos to 440 all the time, or would you be selective, i.e., float the 
>practice rooms, 440 for the teachers studios, etc.
>
>I have been tuning all the University pianos to 440 (three times a year) 
>and find myself doing huge pitch raises or lowering, depending upon the 
>time of year.
>
>Jere


I tune 440 all the time.  With an ETD (I use RCT), I find I can do "pitch 
raise" and tune in the same amount of time that I used to do just a 
straight tuning.  In and out in a classroom hour. (Max time available in 
many situations...)





Conrad Hoffsommer
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, 
then used against you.

From timothy ehlen <tehlen@uiuc.edu>

Interesting ideas that I hadn't considered.  Although I have 
not encountered this kind of difficulty with pitch 
fluctuation on my own pianos, both new and re-built (despite 
living in Cleveland and now Illinois for quite a few years 
now), I can appreciate the perspective of technicians with 
more experienceand your experience dealing with fluctuating 
climates.  I agree that in cases where pitch tends to 
fluctuate in a problematic way, stability would be a higher 
priority than tuning to A440.  

I've never really considered this, however...I always 
thought a piano was "in tune" if it was at 440 and the 
notion of "pitch correction" seems to be another way of 
saying "tuning."  (I tend to think of the "pitch raise" as 
the result of years of failing to have the piano tuned, in 
which case an extra charge seems reasonable.  I know I won't 
get much support for this notion on this list though:)  

I would assume that pianos naturally fall a bit flat over 
time, but if they are really swinging this far sharp during 
the summers, then that's another matter altogether, I 
suppose.  Based on your responses, I would modify my 
previous view that it is not ethical to leave a piano at 
anything other than A440, although I still hope this is the 
norm in most cases.

About my suggestion of pinblock wear, this was the only 
possible problem that I could think of with very frequent 
tunings, based on the loosness of some pins on concert 
grands that I've encountered, including my own CD.  I would 
assume that a re-stringing would need to be done earlier on 
these instruments that have regularly been tuned weekly or 
even daily, comparing with the normal grand that gets 2-4 
tunings per year.

Tim 

From "Cy Shuster" <cy@shusterpiano.com>

We have a lot of experience here at the North Bennet Street School with 
pianos that are tuned daily!  It's really a torture test for tuning pins, 
pinblock, and action.  Grands have what looks like grey iron filings at the 
base of tuning pins, from pieces having come off them (as well as red dust 
bunnies on the soundboards from new temperament strips being inserted over 
and over!).

It's really a lot of wear, compared to playing (but perhaps more evenly 
distributed).  Every single key is played multiple times, with force. 
Action centers get loose; we can't repin everything, or we'd be up to size 
26 center pins in no time.  Action rails get worn out from hammers and 
wippens being removed and replaced.  Rep springs and backcheck wire get 
tortured, and of course key height rises inevitably until you can't see 
balance pins in the keybuttons any more... :-)  I don't know how often 
restringing is necessary (they don't let us touch wound strings for a couple 
of months :-), but I know it's done a lot, along with new hammers.

The school could actually charge manufacturers to torture-test their new 
action designs.  Kawai?  Stuart?  Anyone?  We're non-profit, you know...

--Cy Shuster--
N. Bennet St. School
www.nbss.org
Class of '06
(I don't speak officially for the school; I'm just a student)



                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                 Original Message ----- 
From: "timothy ehlen" <tehlen@uiuc.edu>
To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech@ptg.org>
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 12:32 PM
Subject: RE: frequent tuning - floating pitch? was tuning


> About my suggestion of pinblock wear, this was the only
> possible problem that I could think of with very frequent
> tunings, based on the loosness of some pins on concert
> grands that I've encountered, including my own CD.  I would
> assume that a re-stringing would need to be done earlier on
> these instruments that have regularly been tuned weekly or
> even daily, comparing with the normal grand that gets 2-4
> tunings per year.
>
> Tim

From "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>

Comments interspersed below:


> Interesting ideas that I hadn't considered.  Although I have 
> not encountered this kind of difficulty with pitch 
> fluctuation on my own pianos, both new and re-built (despite 
> living in Cleveland and now Illinois for quite a few years 
> now), I can appreciate the perspective of technicians with 
> more experienceand your experience dealing with fluctuating 
> climates.  I agree that in cases where pitch tends to 
> fluctuate in a problematic way, stability would be a higher 
> priority than tuning to A440.  
> 
> I've never really considered this, however...I always 
> thought a piano was "in tune" if it was at 440 and the 
> notion of "pitch correction" seems to be another way of 
> saying "tuning."  (I tend to think of the "pitch raise" as 
> the result of years of failing to have the piano tuned, in 
> which case an extra charge seems reasonable.  I know I won't 
> get much support for this notion on this list though:)
  
This gets back to the discussion on whether it is appropriate to "punish" a piano owner for not tuning their piano for years by charging for a pitch raise. I don't care if it has been 4 days or 40 years since the piano was last tuned to standard international pitch - if the client wants the piano at A440 and it is 15 cents flat, then they will be charged for a pitch raise if I am servicing their piano.
 
> I would assume that pianos naturally fall a bit flat over 
> time, but if they are really swinging this far sharp during 
> the summers, then that's another matter altogether, I 
> suppose.  Based on your responses, I would modify my 
> previous view that it is not ethical to leave a piano at 
> anything other than A440, although I still hope this is the 
> norm in most cases.

I don't agree with this exactly. IMHO, it is not ethical to be dishonest with the piano owner. They need to be educated about standard pitch, and how a piano's pitch can fluctuate. If the client does not need A440 exactly (as is most often the case), and floating the pitch will work for them, that can be a great way to go. That is not unethical if the client know what you are doing and approves of it. If they need A440 exactly, then of course, A440 it will be - but they will pay extra if a pitch adjustment is needed.

My original post was about tuning pianos on a cruise ship. I only have three or four hours to service eight pianos. My client is well aware that he isn't going to get eight full tunings in that time and for the fee we have agreed upon. He is aware that I float pitch between A440 and A442. Of course, being that these pianos see a tuning lever every other week, and the climate onboard the ship is quite stable, a typical tuning is much closer to "some touchup" as opposed to a piano that sees a technician once per year.

 
> About my suggestion of pinblock wear, this was the only 
> possible problem that I could think of with very frequent 
> tunings, based on the loosness of some pins on concert 
> grands that I've encountered, including my own CD.  I would 
> assume that a re-stringing would need to be done earlier on 
> these instruments that have regularly been tuned weekly or 
> even daily, comparing with the normal grand that gets 2-4 
> tunings per year.
> 
> Tim 

Gee, I don't know that I have much expertise on all this, but when I tune a piano once per year, some of the pins get turned some significant amount by me. However, when tuning pianos every other week, it is difficult to describe the infinitesimal amount that a typical tuning pin gets turned - it is very, very small. Seems to me that a tuning pin/pinblock see about the same amount of total pin movement whether the piano is tuned once per year or every other week. No science here, just my observation and guessing.

Terry Farrell

From "Dean May" <deanmay@pianorebuilders.com>

Well I appreciate having the charge of being unethical withdrawn. ;-)

On the subject of pins loosening with frequent tuning. I think the problem
is poor wood selection in the pinblock. Some pinblocks stand up very well to
repeated tunings. Others do not. I've noticed for example that Story and
Clark studio pianos seem to quickly turn to mush. Repinning with oversize
will work for about 5-8 years then they start getting loose again. Now I use
CA glue which seems to work better. 

Extremely hard blocks also seem to not hold up well to frequent tunings.
When the wood is so hard the pin cannot be fitted with as much interference
as with on a softer block. Less interference (i.e., larger hole
drilled)means there is less tolerance for variation of hole sizes in
drilling, and less tolerance of variations of tuning pin sizes. This adds up
to less tolerance for wearing of the wood with frequent tunings. Just my
intuitive analysis. 

I've done experiments with cabinet makers plywood, very strong and lots of
laminations. But it is entirely unsuitable for a pin block. Just a few turns
of a tuning pin and the torque quickly evaporates. Anyway it just affirmed
to me that the quality of the block is critical for frequent tuning. Others
on the list are eminently more qualified than I to judge what varieties and
grain selections constitute a quality and long wearing block. 

Dean
Dean May             cell 812.239.3359
PianoRebuilders.com   812.235.5272
Terre Haute IN  47802




                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                Original Message-----
From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
Of timothy ehlen
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 12:33 PM
To: Pianotech List
Subject: RE: frequent tuning - floating pitch? was tuning

Interesting ideas that I hadn't considered.  Although I have 
not encountered this kind of difficulty with pitch 
fluctuation on my own pianos, both new and re-built (despite 
living in Cleveland and now Illinois for quite a few years 
now), I can appreciate the perspective of technicians with 
more experienceand your experience dealing with fluctuating 
climates.  I agree that in cases where pitch tends to 
fluctuate in a problematic way, stability would be a higher 
priority than tuning to A440.  

I've never really considered this, however...I always 
thought a piano was "in tune" if it was at 440 and the 
notion of "pitch correction" seems to be another way of 
saying "tuning."  (I tend to think of the "pitch raise" as 
the result of years of failing to have the piano tuned, in 
which case an extra charge seems reasonable.  I know I won't 
get much support for this notion on this list though:)  

I would assume that pianos naturally fall a bit flat over 
time, but if they are really swinging this far sharp during 
the summers, then that's another matter altogether, I 
suppose.  Based on your responses, I would modify my 
previous view that it is not ethical to leave a piano at 
anything other than A440, although I still hope this is the 
norm in most cases.

About my suggestion of pinblock wear, this was the only 
possible problem that I could think of with very frequent 
tunings, based on the loosness of some pins on concert 
grands that I've encountered, including my own CD.  I would 
assume that a re-stringing would need to be done earlier on 
these instruments that have regularly been tuned weekly or 
even daily, comparing with the normal grand that gets 2-4 
tunings per year.

Tim 



_______________________________________________
Pianotech list info: http://www.ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/pianotech

From Avery <avery1@houston.rr.com>

Falconwood

At 12:28 PM 1/29/2006, you wrote:
>Well I appreciate having the charge of being unethical withdrawn. ;-)
>
>On the subject of pins loosening with frequent tuning. I think the problem
>is poor wood selection in the pinblock. Some pinblocks stand up very well to
>repeated tunings. Others do not. I've noticed for example that Story and
>Clark studio pianos seem to quickly turn to mush. Repinning with oversize
>will work for about 5-8 years then they start getting loose again. Now I use
>CA glue which seems to work better.
>
>Extremely hard blocks also seem to not hold up well to frequent tunings.
>When the wood is so hard the pin cannot be fitted with as much interference
>as with on a softer block. Less interference (i.e., larger hole
>drilled)means there is less tolerance for variation of hole sizes in
>drilling, and less tolerance of variations of tuning pin sizes. This adds up
>to less tolerance for wearing of the wood with frequent tunings. Just my
>intuitive analysis.

I'm starting to notice this with one or our 3 D's that have been 
rebuilt using a
Falconwood pinblock. I now have several pins on one of them that are getting
very loose/jumpy, whatever. Primarily in the bass. But it shouldn't 
be happening
after only 10+ yrs.! IMO. The humidity doesn't vary all that much but they are
tuned (or at least touched up) several times a week. Usually!

Avery

>I've done experiments with cabinet makers plywood, very strong and lots of
>laminations. But it is entirely unsuitable for a pin block. Just a few turns
>of a tuning pin and the torque quickly evaporates. Anyway it just affirmed
>to me that the quality of the block is critical for frequent tuning. Others
>on the list are eminently more qualified than I to judge what varieties and
>grain selections constitute a quality and long wearing block.
>
>Dean
>Dean May             cell 812.239.3359
>PianoRebuilders.com   812.235.5272
>Terre Haute IN  47802
>
>
>

                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                Original Message-----
>From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
>Of timothy ehlen
>Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 12:33 PM
>To: Pianotech List
>Subject: RE: frequent tuning - floating pitch? was tuning
>
>Interesting ideas that I hadn't considered.  Although I have
>not encountered this kind of difficulty with pitch
>fluctuation on my own pianos, both new and re-built (despite
>living in Cleveland and now Illinois for quite a few years
>now), I can appreciate the perspective of technicians with
>more experienceand your experience dealing with fluctuating
>climates.  I agree that in cases where pitch tends to
>fluctuate in a problematic way, stability would be a higher
>priority than tuning to A440.
>
>I've never really considered this, however...I always
>thought a piano was "in tune" if it was at 440 and the
>notion of "pitch correction" seems to be another way of
>saying "tuning."  (I tend to think of the "pitch raise" as
>the result of years of failing to have the piano tuned, in
>which case an extra charge seems reasonable.  I know I won't
>get much support for this notion on this list though:)
>
>I would assume that pianos naturally fall a bit flat over
>time, but if they are really swinging this far sharp during
>the summers, then that's another matter altogether, I
>suppose.  Based on your responses, I would modify my
>previous view that it is not ethical to leave a piano at
>anything other than A440, although I still hope this is the
>norm in most cases.
>
>About my suggestion of pinblock wear, this was the only
>possible problem that I could think of with very frequent
>tunings, based on the loosness of some pins on concert
>grands that I've encountered, including my own CD.  I would
>assume that a re-stringing would need to be done earlier on
>these instruments that have regularly been tuned weekly or
>even daily, comparing with the normal grand that gets 2-4
>tunings per year.
>
>Tim
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Pianotech list info: http://www.ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/pianotech
>
>_______________________________________________
>Pianotech list info: http://www.ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/pianotech

From "David Ilvedson" <ilvey@sbcglobal.net>

I agree if the pitch in the middle has gone up or down it makes to sense to lower or raise the bass out of A440 to match the problem area.   Lower or raise the middle of the piano...

David Ilvedson, RPT
Pacifica, California





                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                 Original message ----------------------------------------
From: "James Grebe" <pianoman@accessus.net>
To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech@ptg.org>
Received: 1/29/2006 7:09:22 AM
Subject: Re: frequent tuning - floating pitch? was tuning


>Hi Jon,
>In my opinion, the problem with that scenario is that as the piano passes 
>through A-440 not all of the piano moves the same.  In the mid west where 
>humidity changes are great, the middle 2/3's moves the most so though the 
>pitch changes through the season the middle moves more than the ends..  I 
>have found the only time the piano is at whatever pitch you tune it is when 
>you are finished, not several weeks after.
>James
>James Grebe   Piano Tuning & Repair   Member of M.P.T.
>R.P.T. of the P.T.G. for over 30 years.   "Member of the Year" in 1989
>   Creator of Handsome Hardwood Caster Cups, Piano Benches, Writing 
>Instruments
>(314) 845-8282   1526 Raspberry Lane   Arnold, MO 63010
>BECOME WHAT YOU BELIEVE!
>pianoman@accessus.net
>
                                            

From "David Ilvedson" <ilvey@sbcglobal.net>

THAT SHOULD BE:  "it makes NO sense to lower or raise..."

David Ilvedson, RPT
Pacifica, California





                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                 Original message ----------------------------------------
From: "David Ilvedson" <ilvey@sbcglobal.net>
To: pianotech@ptg.org
Received: 1/29/2006 12:20:21 PM
Subject: Re: frequent tuning - floating pitch? was tuning


>I agree if the pitch in the middle has gone up or down it makes to sense to lower or raise 
>the bass out of A440 to match the problem area.   Lower or raise the middle of the 
>piano...

>David Ilvedson, RPT
>Pacifica, California



>