PianoTech Archive

Expand all | Collapse all

Bluthner Tuning

  • 1.  Bluthner Tuning

    Posted 07-30-2005 11:05
    From "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>
    
    I just booked a first-time tuning for a Bluthner grand (first time for me to tune it). It is said to be about 55 years old. Is this piano likely to have the 4th string aliquot system up in the high treble? If so, is there any special tuning techniques for it? I've never tuned one of these. Just pluck it and tune it beatless with the other three strings of each note?
    
    Terry Farrell


  • 2.  Bluthner Tuning

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-30-2005 13:52
    From Phil Bondi <phil@philbondi.com>
    
    Terry, that's what I've done. I have a grand total of 1-time experience.
    
    If there's another way, I can't wait to hear what it is.
    
    -Phil Bondi(Fl)
    


  • 3.  Bluthner Tuning

    Posted 07-30-2005 14:26
    From Susan Kline <skline@peak.org>
    
    At 01:05 PM 7/30/2005 -0400, you wrote:
    >I just booked a first-time tuning for a Bluthner grand (first time for me 
    >to tune it). It is said to be about 55 years old. Is this piano likely to 
    >have the 4th string aliquot system up in the high treble? If so, is there 
    >any special tuning techniques for it? I've never tuned one of these. Just 
    >pluck it and tune it beatless with the other three strings of each note?
    >
    >Terry Farrell
    
    Hi, Terry.
    
    Not sure how much of the piano would have the fourth string, but probably a 
    lot of the treble. I've only tuned newer ones, which don't start the fourth 
    string till the high treble. After a pretty short time, tuning the fourth 
    string feels natural enough.
    
    It takes two wedges. Keep the fourth string muted, and tune the other three 
    to as clear a unison as you can, like usual. I found that the three-string 
    unisons on Bl?thners are very, very clear, almost colorless-clear. Then, 
    remove the last mute, and you'll probably hear the unison get angry, more 
    in timbre than in beats. I tune the fourth string without plucking it, but 
    barely moving the wire, and try to calm the unison again. It usually will 
    get better, but with a more complex tone than the three main strings alone. 
    Then I pluck the fourth string to be sure it isn't some screwy place, like 
    on a different note. If I can't get the unison to clear after I've added in 
    the fourth string, I'll pluck the fourth string to find out which way to 
    move it, and then tinker a little when it's very close to the other three, 
    tuning for tone quality.
    
    I found that once you get the section settled down, and the unisons tuned 
    for timbre like this, that the fourth string actually seems to add some 
    tuning stability.
    
    Have fun -- it's kind of a neat system, really. I don't think that the 
    fourth string is for volume. I think that the more complex, less 
    crystalline sound sustains better.
    
    Susan Kline 


  • 4.  Bluthner Tuning

    Posted 07-30-2005 16:18
    From "Michael Gamble" <michael@gambles.fsnet.co.uk>
    
    The "Aliquot" string is not struck and is therefore not at the fore of the sound you hear when playing a note. It is damped - by a little damper felt stuck on the side of the damper head. It is above (in height) its companion strings. It does not share the bridge but has its own indivual "bridge" of a slender upright with a hole through which the Aliquot string passes. It starts in the middle and goes right to the top - BUT the top break is the only area where they are "tuned" at the same pitch as their partner strings. he main body of Aliquot strings are tuned an octave high. I only use one rubber wedge and, so long as the Aliquots are not wildly out, leave them alone. I do, however, check them using a guitar plectrum and correct as required.
    Regards from a pouring wet rainy dark night in Sussex.
    Michael G.(UK)
      


  • 5.  Bluthner Tuning

    Posted 07-30-2005 16:45
    From Overs Pianos <sec@overspianos.com.au>
    
    Terry and all,
    
    >I just booked a first-time tuning for a Bluthner 
    >grand (first time for me to tune it). It is said 
    >to be about 55 years old. Is this piano likely 
    >to have the 4th string aliquot system up in the 
    >high treble? If so, is there any special tuning 
    >techniques for it? I've never tuned one of 
    >these. Just pluck it and tune it beatless with 
    >the other three strings of each note?
    >
    >Terry Farrell
    
    
    I have tuned numerous aliquot Bl?thners 
    (Australia was the second biggest export market 
    for German pianos, after the UK, from 1880 to 
    1914). They also made models without the aliquots 
    for the domestic market. I use a felt wedge, 
    placing it between the centre and right unisons, 
    with it leaning over to the right so that it also 
    wedges off the aliquot length. As you suggest, 
    plucking the aliquots is the go, in order of 
    proceedings after the unisons are sorted (the 
    aliquots are mostly false - I'm not a big fan of 
    these).
    
    You'll find Bl?thners to be very interesting 
    pianos from a design perspective. The earlier 
    versions had a large and curved bass side corner 
    cut-off (the most common models are the 5'6" and 
    the 6'2"). The sound board was compression 
    crowned and clearly under-engineered for 
    durability. The rib heights are rather shallower 
    in relation to their width. These boards almost 
    always collapse right along the line of the long 
    bridge. The bridge layout and scaling isn't up 
    there with contemporary thinking, but there is a 
    range of other worthwhile design ideas in these 
    instruments.
    
    In recent years we had a very early Bl?thner 
    (from around 1860) come in for transit damage 
    repairs. The workmanship was very ordinary on 
    this example. This was to me most surprising 
    since they were being very-well made by around 
    1885.
    
    When I was a student at high school (during the 
    early 70's), the local returned-soldiers club in 
    the town (now city) of Griffith had a Bl?thner 
    concert grand from around 1880. This fascinating 
    instrument had an 85 note compass with an overall 
    length of 10'4.75". The sound board was like a 
    venetian blind, with daylight showing through 
    cracks everywhere. During the rebuilding phase of 
    my career, I harboured a desire to acquire the 
    Bl?thner some day and rebuild it. But alas, the 
    club had a major fire and the piano was 
    incinerated.
    
    Take your trouble light Terry. You'll find 
    Bl?thners very interesting, with a dark tone that 
    is quite unique. For the less experienced fork 
    bashers, these instruments provide a challenge 
    when setting the temperament. The fullness of 
    tone can lead you to make the fifths and fourths 
    too pure.
    
    Ron O.
    --
    OVERS PIANOS - SYDNEY
        Grand Piano Manufacturers
    _______________________
    
    Web http://overspianos.com.au
    mailto:ron@overspianos.com.au
    _______________________


  • 6.  Bluthner Tuning

    Posted 07-30-2005 16:53
    From Horace Greeley <hgreeley@stanford.edu>
    
    Hi, Ron,
    
    At 03:45 PM 7/30/2005, you wrote:
      For the less experienced fork bashers, these instruments provide a 
    challenge when setting the temperament. The fullness of tone can lead you 
    to make the fifths and fourths too pure.
    
    Very well said.  Bravo!
    
    Best.
    
    Horace
    


  • 7.  Bluthner Tuning

    Posted 08-01-2005 12:28
    From "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>
    
    Re: Bluthner TuningI had someone reply to me privately on this subject. He suggested something that no one else had mentioned.
    
    "...there are two sections with the extra string. in the lower section you tune the fourth string an octave higher than the notes to which they correspond and in the upper section you tune the extra strings in unison to the strings below."
    
    This information reportedly came from a Bluthner dealer. I'd sure hate to be wrong and start breaking strings. Anyone else ever hear of this? Is there any possibility that there were different scales that were tuned differently?
    
    Terry Farrell
    
    
      I just booked a first-time tuning for a Bluthner grand (first time for me to tune it). It is said to be about 55 years old. Is this piano likely to have the 4th string aliquot system up in the high treble? If so, is there any special tuning techniques for it? I've never tuned one of these. Just pluck it and tune it beatless with the other three strings of each note?
    
      Terry Farrell


  • 8.  Bluthner Tuning

    Posted 08-01-2005 12:32
    From "Cy Shuster" <741662027@theshusters.org>
    
    Re: Bluthner TuningMichael Gamble posted the same thing.  I wondered that no one else picked up on this...  (Duplex Dan Franklin, we miss you!).
    
    --Cy--
      


  • 9.  Bluthner Tuning

    Posted 08-01-2005 12:46
    From "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>
    
    Re: Bluthner TuningThanks for pointing that out Cy. I did read Michael's post, but somehow I missed that. Michael Gamble, what is the source for your information? 
    
    Anyone else? Thanks.
    
    Terry Farrell
    
      Michael Gamble posted the same thing.  I wondered that no one else picked up on this...  (Duplex Dan Franklin, we miss you!).
    
      --Cy--
    
    
        I had someone reply to me privately on this subject. He suggested something that no one else had mentioned.
    
        "...there are two sections with the extra string. in the lower section you tune the fourth string an octave higher than the notes to which they correspond and in the upper section you tune the extra strings in unison to the strings below."
    
        This information reportedly came from a Bluthner dealer. I'd sure hate to be wrong and start breaking strings. Anyone else ever hear of this? Is there any possibility that there were different scales that were tuned differently?
    
        Terry Farrell


  • 10.  Bluthner Tuning

    Posted 08-01-2005 15:20
    From Avery Todd <avery1@houston.rr.com>
    
    Cy,
    
    Maybe I'm wrong, but as far as I understand, Dan's postings about the 
    duplex thing
    has nothing to do with the Bluthner! Am I wrong?
    
    Avery
    
    At 01:31 PM 8/1/05, you wrote:
    >Michael Gamble posted the same thing.  I wondered that no one else 
    >picked up on this...  (Duplex Dan Franklin, we miss you!).
    >
    >--Cy--
    >


  • 11.  Bluthner Tuning

    Posted 08-01-2005 16:03
    From Horace Greeley <hgreeley@stanford.edu>
    
    At 02:20 PM 8/1/2005, you wrote:
    >Cy,
    >
    >Maybe I'm wrong, but as far as I understand, Dan's postings about the 
    >duplex thing
    >has nothing to do with the Bluthner! Am I wrong?
    
    No.
    
    HG
    
    
    
    >Avery
    >
    >At 01:31 PM 8/1/05, you wrote:
    >>Michael Gamble posted the same thing.  I wondered that no one else picked 
    >>up on this...  (Duplex Dan Franklin, we miss you!).
    >>
    >>--Cy--
    >>


  • 12.  Bluthner Tuning

    Posted 08-01-2005 16:19
    From "Cy Shuster" <741662027@theshusters.org>
    
    Avery, you're right, of course; the word "aliquot" just triggered his memory.
    
    --Cy--
      


  • 13.  Bluthner Tuning

    Posted 08-01-2005 12:43
    From Conrad Hoffsommer <hoffsoco@luther.edu>
    
    At 02:27 PM 8/1/2005 -0400, you wrote:
    >I had someone reply to me privately on this subject. He suggested 
    >something that no one else had mentioned.
    >
    >"...there are two sections with the extra string. in the lower section you 
    >tune the fourth string an octave higher than the notes to which they 
    >correspond and in the upper section you tune the extra strings in unison 
    >to the strings below."
    >
    >This information reportedly came from a Bluthner dealer. I'd sure hate to 
    >be wrong and start breaking strings. Anyone else ever hear of this? Is 
    >there any possibility that there were different scales that were tuned 
    >differently?
    >
    >Terry Farrell
    
    
    It's easy to tell octave/unison.  The octave tuned section has a separate 
    bridge for the fourth string/agraffe.
    
    
    Conrad Hoffsommer - Keyboard Technician
    Luther College, 700 College Dr., Decorah, Iowa 52101-1045
    1-(563)-387-1204 // Fax 1-(563)-387-1076
    
    - Right now, I'm hoping to live until my age matches my golf score,
    - Until then, I'll have to be content to have my IQ match my handicap.
    


  • 14.  Bluthner Tuning

    Posted 08-01-2005 13:49
      |   view attached
    From "Calin Tantareanu" <calin.tantareanu@gmx.net>
    
    Re: Bluthner TuningTerry, it should be easy to decide this. Where the aliquot strings are the same length as the other 3 strings of the unison, tune them to the same pitch. In the lower part of the scale the aliquots are shorter, bearing on a separate bridge on the soundboard. Those should probably be tuned an octave high. Look at the attached picture.
    I don't think all Bluthners have this separate bridge for aliquots (ans some Bluthners have no aliquots at all, just 3 string unisons like most other pianos). Anyway, if the aliquot length is the same as the length of the 3 strings then it should be tuned to the same pitch.
    
    
     Calin Tantareanu
    ----------------------------------------------------
     http://calin.1L.com
    ----------------------------------------------------
      


  • 15.  Bluthner Tuning

    Posted 08-01-2005 18:44
    From "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>
    
    Re: Bluthner Tuning"I see" said the blind man. Indeed, pretty obvious. Just had never seen one before (or bothered to look - or remembered). Thanks for the picture.
    
    Terry Farrell
    
      Terry, it should be easy to decide this. Where the aliquot strings are the same length as the other 3 strings of the unison, tune them to the same pitch. In the lower part of the scale the aliquots are shorter, bearing on a separate bridge on the soundboard. Those should probably be tuned an octave high. Look at the attached picture.
      I don't think all Bluthners have this separate bridge for aliquots (ans some Bluthners have no aliquots at all, just 3 string unisons like most other pianos). Anyway, if the aliquot length is the same as the length of the 3 strings then it should be tuned to the same pitch.
    
    
       Calin Tantareanu


  • 16.  Bluthner Tuning

    Posted 08-01-2005 15:18
    From Avery Todd <avery1@houston.rr.com>
    
    Terry,
    
    I'd suggest contacting Jim Reeder. He's a Bluthner dealer and also a 
    rebuilder.
    He helped me once on one I had to tune (my first one).
    
    http://www.reederpianos.com/
    
    Avery
    
    At 01:27 PM 8/1/05, you wrote:
    >I had someone reply to me privately on this subject. He suggested 
    >something that no one else had mentioned.
    >
    >"...there are two sections with the extra string. in the lower 
    >section you tune the fourth string an octave higher than the notes 
    >to which they correspond and in the upper section you tune the extra 
    >strings in unison to the strings below."
    >
    >This information reportedly came from a Bluthner dealer. I'd sure 
    >hate to be wrong and start breaking strings. Anyone else ever hear 
    >of this? Is there any possibility that there were different scales 
    >that were tuned differently?
    >
    >Terry Farrell
    >
    >I just booked a first-time tuning for a Bluthner grand (first time 
    >for me to tune it). It is said to be about 55 years old. Is this 
    >piano likely to have the 4th string aliquot system up in the high 
    >treble? If so, is there any special tuning techniques for it? I've 
    >never tuned one of these. Just pluck it and tune it beatless with 
    >the other three strings of each note?
    >
    >Terry Farrell
    


  • 17.  Bluthner Tuning

    Posted 08-01-2005 15:41
    From "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>
    
    Hi Avery - I called up there about an hour ago and he said some 60 year old Bluthners will have the 4th string and some won't. If it does, some of the 4th strings in the lower treble will terminate at half the speaking length on some sort of rod that sticks up - those are the ones that get tuned an octave sharp (sounded to me like it will be pretty obvious when I see it). The 4th strings that are the same speaking length as the other unisons are tuned the same as the other three strings.
    
    Terry Farrell
      I'd suggest contacting Jim Reeder. He's a Bluthner dealer and also a rebuilder. 
      He helped me once on one I had to tune (my first one). 
    
      http://www.reederpianos.com/
    
      Avery 
    
      At 01:27 PM 8/1/05, you wrote:
    
        I had someone reply to me privately on this subject. He suggested something that no one else had mentioned.
         
        "...there are two sections with the extra string. in the lower section you tune the fourth string an octave higher than the notes to which they correspond and in the upper section you tune the extra strings in unison to the strings below."
         
        This information reportedly came from a Bluthner dealer. I'd sure hate to be wrong and start breaking strings. Anyone else ever hear of this? Is there any possibility that there were different scales that were tuned differently?
         
        Terry Farrell
    
    
          I just booked a first-time tuning for a Bluthner grand (first time for me to tune it). It is said to be about 55 years old. Is this piano likely to have the 4th string aliquot system up in the high treble? If so, is there any special tuning techniques for it? I've never tuned one of these. Just pluck it and tune it beatless with the other three strings of each note?
    
    
    
          Terry Farrell
    


  • 18.  Bluthner Tuning

    Posted 08-01-2005 15:42
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>
    
    > /"...there are two sections with the extra string. in the lower section 
    > you tune the fourth string an octave higher than the notes to which they 
    > correspond and in the upper section you tune the extra strings in unison 
    > to the strings below."/
    > // 
    > This information reportedly came from a Bluthner dealer. I'd sure hate 
    > to be wrong and start breaking strings. Anyone else ever hear of this? 
    > Is there any possibility that there were different scales that were 
    > tuned differently?
    >  
    > Terry Farrell
    
    
    Terry,
    Speaking lengths........
    Ron N
    


  • 19.  Bluthner Tuning

    Posted 08-01-2005 16:43
    From "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>
    
    Well, speaking lengths were the reason I was having a fair bit of trouble 
    imagining how in the world I was going to tune a low treble string an octave 
    higher! Not having ever tuned a Bluthner before, and only seeing one a 
    couple times at conferences, I was not aware that the 4th string in the low 
    treble terminate at a shorter speaking length as their respective regular 
    unisons. But now that I understand it a little better (or at least I have 
    this weird picture in my head), I think it will be pretty obvious when I get 
    up close and personal with this thing.
    
    Terry Farrell
    
    >> /"...there are two sections with the extra string. in the lower section 
    >> you tune the fourth string an octave higher than the notes to which they 
    >> correspond and in the upper section you tune the extra strings in unison 
    >> to the strings below."/
    >> // This information reportedly came from a Bluthner dealer. I'd sure hate 
    >> to be wrong and start breaking strings. Anyone else ever hear of this? Is 
    >> there any possibility that there were different scales that were tuned 
    >> differently?
    >>  Terry Farrell
    >
    >
    > Terry,
    > Speaking lengths........
    > Ron N 
    


  • 20.  Bluthner Tuning

    Posted 08-01-2005 16:06
    From "Michael Gamble" <michael@gambles.fsnet.co.uk>
    
    Re: Bluthner TuningI did
    Michael G.(UK)
      


  • 21.  Bluthner Tuning

    Posted 07-30-2005 17:07
    From Ric Brekne <ricbrek@broadpark.no>
    
    Hi Susan, Terry and whomever.
    
    I dont believe you get any real volume boost either, tho I've never 
    measured to be sure.  You certainly can notice beats when the 3 string 
    unison is clean as a whistle but the raised 4th string is not at the 
    same pitch tho.  You can actually create some rather kinky effects by 
    offseting the 4th string either sharp or flat depending on what you are 
    after.... or you can just set it clean to the others.
    
    All that aside... I really wonder sometimes if this extra set of strings 
    was really meant as a way of attempting to supply some extra support for 
    the soundboard. I have two of these that I service. One an older model 
    with the extra string in both the top two sections, and the other a 
    newer one with extra strings only in the top section. In both cases 
    there is lift on their respective bridges. 
    
    Just musing in Bergen
    
    Cheers
    RicB
    
    ----------
    Have fun -- it's kind of a neat system, really. I don't think that 
    thefourth string is for volume. I think that the more complex, less 
    crystalline sound sustains better.
    
    Susan Kline
    


  • 22.  Bluthner Tuning

    Posted 07-30-2005 20:28
    From "Joe Garrett" <joegarrett@earthlink.net>
    
    Phil asked: "Terry, that's what I've done. I have a grand total of 1-time experience.
    
    If there's another way, I can't wait to hear what it is."
    
    -Phil,
    Well now, there, then, - - there is an alternative to "plucking".<G> For those who use ETDs, you should know that a struck string will give a different "reading" then a "plucked" string. THEREFORE, it would work to use a hammer on a shank to "boink" that sucker. This would give you a clearer tone also.<G>
    Regards, 
    
    Joe Garrett, R.P.T.
    Captain, Tool Police
    Squares R I


  • 23.  Bluthner Tuning

    Posted 08-01-2005 12:39
    From Ric Brekne <ricbrek@broadpark.no>
    
    This is correct Terry.  You COULD tune the lower section to another note 
    really... for example a 5th above... might be interesting :)  But the 
    Bluthner plan is an octave above for the lower section (same size string 
    with half the singing length) and the higher section tuned to the 
    corresponding unisons.
    
    Have fun with it Terry.  Its a rather neat sounding arrangement if you 
    ask me
    
    Cheers
    RicB
    
    ---------
    
    /Re: Bluthner Tuning I had someone reply to me privately on this subject. 
    He suggested something that no one else had mentioned.
    
    "...there are two sections with the extra string. in the lower section 
    you tune the fourth string an octave higher than the notes to which they 
    correspond and in the upper section you tune the extra strings in unison 
    to the strings below."
    
    This information reportedly came from a Bluthner dealer. I'd sure hate 
    to be wrong and start breaking strings. Anyone else ever hear of this? 
    Is there any possibility that there were different scales that were 
    tuned differently?
    
    Terry Farrell/
    


  • 24.  Bluthner Tuning

    Posted 08-01-2005 17:43
    From "Kerry Cooper" <brispiano@optushome.com.au>
    
    Terry,
    
     
    
    Ron O, said the same thing in his reply. I did not reply as Ron O had
    already supplied you with the correct information. With a bit of thinking
    and observation, you should be able to work out that with the bridge of the
    'forth' string half way between the main bridge and the capo bar, it would
    have to be of a higher pitch. When the bridges are the same for both the
    tri-cord and the forth string, then the pitch is the same. When tuned
    correctly, it does bring out a singing quality of the piano.
    
     
    
    Kerry Cooper
    
     
    
    Kerry Cooper 
    
    Australasian Registered Piano Technician (ARPT)
    
    Brisbane Piano Centre
    
    (07)3809-0652
    
    0412-033-379
    
    brispiano@optushome.com.au
    
      _____  
    
    From: Farrell [mailto:mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com] 
    Sent: Tuesday, 2 August 2005 4:28 AM
    To: Pianotech
    Subject: Re: Bluthner Tuning
    
     
    
    I had someone reply to me privately on this subject. He suggested something
    that no one else had mentioned.
    
     
    
    "...there are two sections with the extra string. in the lower section you
    tune the fourth string an octave higher than the notes to which they
    correspond and in the upper section you tune the extra strings in unison to
    the strings below."
    
     
    
    This information reportedly came from a Bluthner dealer. I'd sure hate to be
    wrong and start breaking strings. Anyone else ever hear of this? Is there
    any possibility that there were different scales that were tuned
    differently?
    
     
    
    Terry Farrell
    
     
    
    I just booked a first-time tuning for a Bluthner grand (first time for me to
    tune it). It is said to be about 55 years old. Is this piano likely to have
    the 4th string aliquot system up in the high treble? If so, is there any
    special tuning techniques for it? I've never tuned one of these. Just pluck
    it and tune it beatless with the other three strings of each note?
    
     
    
    Terry Farrell