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Water damaged piano

Delwin Fandrich

Delwin Fandrich10-11-2011 17:08

From "Delwin D Fandrich"

  • 1.  Water damaged piano

    Posted 10-11-2011 14:02 
    From Rob McCall <rob@mccallpiano.com>

Greetings,

I received a call this morning from a flood and water damage company.  Apparently, someone has, what the owner of the flood company called, a very expensive piano in storage.  There was a leak in the roof of the storage facility and water rained down on the piano and it apparently sat in this mess for a while before it was discovered. He wants me to call him tomorrow morning to go over the details. I don't know any specifics yet; type of piano, manufacturer, age, etc. He seemed to think there was water inside the action of the piano, too. He couldn't talk today as he was busy.

My questions are based on having never done this type of evaluation before.  What are the things I need to look for?  Thoughts that come to my mind are repairing any case damage, replacing all felt components internally, possibly new hammers, letting everything dry out and reevaluating the keyframe, rails, etc.  Maybe restringing or new pins? New pin block?  Soundboard? Mold prevention? I'm not quite sure, so please let me know any ideas you may have for the items I should look at and evaluate.

All thoughts are welcome... I appreciate the help.

Regards,

Rob McCall

McCall Piano Service, LLC
www.mccallpiano.com
Murrieta, CA
951-698-1875


  • 2.  Water damaged piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-11-2011 17:08 
    From "Delwin D Fandrich"


  • 3.  Water damaged piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-11-2011 19:39 
    From David Doremus <algiers_piano@bellsouth.net>

This is absolutely spot on. Besides the obvious, like dampers stuck to 
strings with rust, the whole thing seems to come down to the glue 
choices used in manufacture. I can tell you from experience that 
Baldwins seem to come apart, while some cheaper pianos hold together. I 
have a customer who still has pictures of her piano floating in 3 ft of 
water after hurricane Betsy with her birthday presents piled on top. It 
still works, according to her it had some leg and lyre repair and that 
was it, and as far as I can tell she's right. Let it set and dry as long 
as possible before passing judgement, things will change. Swollen parts 
will shrink, other parts that looked ok will warp, veneer will peel off. 
Before you set it up make sure the legs are not coming apart, most of 
them are made from glued up blocks and the joints can fail after getting 
wet. Hopefully they have the proper insurance, and enough of it.

--Dave
New Orleans

On 10/11/11 6:07 PM, Delwin D Fandrich wrote:
>
> Start by insisting that the piano be up on its feet. But, before it 
> goes up inspect the bottom of the piano; check the soundboard to rim 
> joint, make sure the ribs are solidly glued. Usually you will be able 
> to see a ?waterline? which will tell you how high the water has been. 
> (Assuming it was in a flood-type situation.) Determine how old the 
> piano is. Is it old enough to worry about animal hide glue joints? If 
> it is a more modern piano?one using a thermal-setting water-proof 
> adhesive?you probably won?t have structural problems. Pull the action 
> and examine the action parts. Even if you don?t see evidence of direct 
> water damage make sure the centers are free (not rusted stiff) and not 
> loose. Listen to the piano?assuming it is playable?how are the 
> hammers? Check the pinblock to make sure there is no delaminating 
> going on. Tune through the bass (the piano was on its side, right?) 
> and see how the pins feel. How do the metal parts look? How much rust 
> can you see? How are the dampers? The damper levers? The damper guide 
> rail?
>
> After you?ve given your initial inspection, explain that before you 
> are willing to put anything about the pianos condition in writing 
> you?ll want to check the piano again after it has been dry for a 
> couple of months?when I check a piano that has actually been in a 
> flood I want it to be dried out for about four to six months before I 
> render any final decision on salvageability and the costs involved. It 
> doesn?t sound like this has actually been in a flood but you don?t yet 
> know how high the water might have gone. I?ve found decently built old 
> pianos falling apart after a flood that came only six inches up on the 
> walls and I?ve found other pianos that were literally floating in four 
> or five feet of water that cleaned up reasonably well with only 
> hammers and dampers and a few assorted bits and pieces.
>
> ddf
>
> Delwin D Fandrich
>
> Piano Design & Fabrication
>
> 6939 Foothill Court SW, Olympia, Washington 98512 USA
>
> Phone 360.515.0119 ? Cell 360.388.6525
>
> del@fandrichpiano.com <mailto:del@fandrichpiano.com>? 
> ddfandrich@gmail.com <mailto:ddfandrich@gmail.com>
>
>

--


  • 4.  Water damaged piano

    Posted 10-12-2011 05:57 
    From "Gerald Groot" <tunerboy3@comcast.net>

I've found that rust in particular, will not necessarily show up for a full
year afterward.  That can take quite a while to show its brutal head.  I
generally recommend not to settle with the insurance company for a good
year. You will know for sure by that time, the full extent of the damage
caused.

Jer Groot


    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
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  • 5.  Water damaged piano

    Posted 10-12-2011 09:57 
    From Tom Gorley <tomgorley88@sonic.net>

To extend Jer's comment a little further . . .I have found that when a piano has been thru a fire, the damper felt which seemed fine at first, develops a noisy crustiness after about a year, as the invisible oily smoke residue hardens. I concur with Jer.  Wait to see what develops. 

>    Tom Gorley
> Registered Piano Technician     
>       





On Oct 12, 2011, at 4:56 AM, Gerald Groot wrote:

> I've found that rust in particular, will not necessarily show up for a full
> year afterward.  That can take quite a while to show its brutal head.  I
> generally recommend not to settle with the insurance company for a good
> year. You will know for sure by that time, the full extent of the damage
> caused.
> 
> Jer Groot
> 
> 
    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
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  • 6.  Water damaged piano

    Posted 10-12-2011 10:21 
    From Rob McCall <rob@mccallpiano.com>

Thanks for all the great advice folks!

Quick update...

I just talked with the flood company.  He says he doesn't know anything about pianos but he thinks it's a Yamaha baby grand. He says it's electronic. Upon further investigation, I determined it has a player in it.  Possibly a Disklavier system.  He told me that the piano was set up in the home with the lid closed when a water pipe burst directly above the piano and approximately 100,000 gallons of water dumped on to the piano and filled up the house.  When they came in, RH was at 99% in the home.

A piano mover came and packed it up and it is now in storage on it's side at this company's warehouse. They are the insurance billers/ handlers.  I'm headed that way in about an hour to take a look at it. I'll know more in a while...

Regards,

Rob McCall

McCall Piano Service, LLC
www.mccallpiano.com
Murrieta, CA
951-698-1875


On Oct 12, 2011, at 04:56 , Gerald Groot wrote:

> I've found that rust in particular, will not necessarily show up for a full
> year afterward.  That can take quite a while to show its brutal head.  I
> generally recommend not to settle with the insurance company for a good
> year. You will know for sure by that time, the full extent of the damage
> caused.
> 
> Jer Groot


  • 7.  Water damaged piano

    Posted 10-12-2011 21:31 
    From Rob McCall <rob@mccallpiano.com>

Sorry for the lengthy duplication.  I just wanted to make sure everyone who has offered advice from both lists got the update.
---------------------------

Here's the update.  First of all, I did NOT plug in the Disklavier. I learned my lesson years ago about water and electricity. Don't ask... :-)

So it's a White 1990 G1R with the Disklavier and the DKW10 Control wagon. Water damage took place during the last week of August.

While the piano was on it's side, I inspected the glue joint around the rim/soundboard, as well as all the ribs. Everything actually looked pretty good on the underside. No separation, no watermarks or staining.  It looked very clean.  From the best I can tell from the water damage on the lid, the water hit the lid near the curved section and was flowing away from the action.  The only water marks I can see on the lid near the fallboard look like more of a sprinkle from water splattering nearby. Not a direct hit. I was told the piano was completely closed up before the water hit.

I Inspected the legs, and the casters are rusted and it looks like the wheels sat in about 1.5" of water.

We put the piano up and I worked my way around the strings and plate.  I couldn't find any indication that water had entered the entire area.  While there were instances of rust on a few screws on the outside of the case/legs, there was no visible indication of rust on any of the plain wire strings or the inside around the plate. All plate bolts where clean and dry and no sign of rust or water damage.

I played the piano and it felt like a normal Yamaha piano.  Every note played. They felt even and uniform.  Keys were level with each other, etc.

I pulled the action out and inspected everything I could.  The keybed looked completely dry and had no staining or indication of water entering the action cavity in any great quantities.  The back action, felt, etc. was clean and dry. The only moisture indication that I could find, were the pins on the keyslip had rusted and took some effort to get that part out of the piano, as well as the hinge hardware on the sides of the fallboard. 

Other than that, there was a slight bit of rust on the long hinge on the lid of the piano. After playing, I noticed a slight green color transfer from the bass strings to the hammer felt at the strike point. It appears like a small amount of water dripped through the long hinge on the lid. I'd replace the bass strings and probably the bass damper felt.

The key drive unit in the back of the action cavity was clean and dry.  No indication of any water getting down that far at all. I checked under a couple of nuts on the thumpers (?) for moisture around the threads and it was clean and dry with no rust. No stains, no water lines, nothing...

I also checked the pinblock for any delamination and there was none.  I used a mirror and a bright light to look up at the bottom of the tuning pins expecting to see some rust, and the underside of the tuning pins were shiny and clean without any staining.

My big concern has to do with the standalone control wagon of the disklavier.  The pressed fiberboard on the back was clean and dry and didn't show any signs of swelling around the edges, however there was rust around the screws of the power supply, as well a lot of rust on the wheels on the bottom. Along with a big sticker that said do not expose to rain or moisture!  :-)

I called Yamaha and they have a replacement power supply if everything else checks out. The also have a replacement key drive unit although that is pretty expensive. All the other parts for this Disklavier model aren't available anymore.

I took lots of photos and I'll post some of them here. If anyone wants to see anything in particular, just let me know, I probably took a picture of it.  :-)

So my thoughts are to replace the bass strings, bass damper felt, possibly rebush the keys, replace keyslip pins, replace all the wheel casters, pedals and pedal rods, and the power supply on the Disklavier. 

Oh, last but not least, the finish on the lid.  There are no cracks or delaminations anywhere and I couldn't find a nick in the finish anywhere for water to get in.  It looks like a good cleaning and polishing should take care of the finish.

I know this is incomplete and I'd welcome all thoughts and ideas.  :-)  

Funny thing, Yamaha said to make sure it was dry but then just plug it in and see if it works.  :-)

Thanks!

Rob McCall








On Oct 12, 2011, at 09:20 , Rob McCall wrote:

> Thanks for all the great advice folks!
> 
> Quick update...
> 
> I just talked with the flood company.  He says he doesn't know anything about pianos but he thinks it's a Yamaha baby grand. He says it's electronic. Upon further investigation, I determined it has a player in it.  Possibly a Disklavier system.  He told me that the piano was set up in the home with the lid closed when a water pipe burst directly above the piano and approximately 100,000 gallons of water dumped on to the piano and filled up the house.  When they came in, RH was at 99% in the home.
> 
> A piano mover came and packed it up and it is now in storage on it's side at this company's warehouse. They are the insurance billers/ handlers.  I'm headed that way in about an hour to take a look at it. I'll know more in a while...
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Rob McCall


  • 8.  Water damaged piano

    Posted 10-13-2011 06:05 
    From Mike Spalding <mike.spalding1@frontier.com>

Rob,

Now that you've made a thorough inspection, thoroughly documented with 
notes and photos, the thing to do is wait through the dry season ( or 
longer if the insurance company will allow it) then re-inspect the piano 
to see if any new damage shows up.

Mike

On 10/12/2011 10:30 PM, Rob McCall wrote:
> Sorry for the lengthy duplication.  I just wanted to make sure 
> everyone who has offered advice from both lists got the update.
> ---------------------------
>
> Here's the update.  First of all, I did NOT plug in the Disklavier. I 
> learned my lesson years ago about water and electricity. Don't ask... :-)
>
> So it's a White 1990 G1R with the Disklavier and the DKW10 Control 
> wagon. Water damage took place during the last week of August.
>
> While the piano was on it's side, I inspected the glue joint around 
> the rim/soundboard, as well as all the ribs. Everything actually 
> looked pretty good on the underside. No separation, no watermarks or 
> staining.  It looked very clean.  From the best I can tell from the 
> water damage on the lid, the water hit the lid near the curved section 
> and was flowing away from the action.  The only water marks I can see 
> on the lid near the fallboard look like more of a sprinkle from water 
> splattering nearby. Not a direct hit. I was told the piano 
> was completely closed up before the water hit.
>
> I Inspected the legs, and the casters are rusted and it looks like the 
> wheels sat in about 1.5" of water.
>
> We put the piano up and I worked my way around the strings and plate. 
>  I couldn't find any indication that water had entered the entire 
> area.  While there were instances of rust on a few screws on the 
> outside of the case/legs, there was no visible indication of rust on 
> any of the plain wire strings or the inside around the plate. All 
> plate bolts where clean and dry and no sign of rust or water damage.
>
> I played the piano and it felt like a normal Yamaha piano.  Every note 
> played. They felt even and uniform.  Keys were level with each other, etc.
>
> I pulled the action out and inspected everything I could.  The keybed 
> looked completely dry and had no staining or indication of water 
> entering the action cavity in any great quantities.  The back action, 
> felt, etc. was clean and dry. The only moisture indication that I 
> could find, were the pins on the keyslip had rusted and took some 
> effort to get that part out of the piano, as well as the hinge 
> hardware on the sides of the fallboard.
>
> Other than that, there was a slight bit of rust on the long hinge on 
> the lid of the piano. After playing, I noticed a slight green color 
> transfer from the bass strings to the hammer felt at the strike point. 
> It appears like a small amount of water dripped through the long hinge 
> on the lid. I'd replace the bass strings and probably the bass damper 
> felt.
>
> The key drive unit in the back of the action cavity was clean and dry. 
>  No indication of any water getting down that far at all. I checked 
> under a couple of nuts on the thumpers (?) for moisture around the 
> threads and it was clean and dry with no rust. No stains, no water 
> lines, nothing...
>
> I also checked the pinblock for any delamination and there was none. 
>  I used a mirror and a bright light to look up at the bottom of the 
> tuning pins expecting to see some rust, and the underside of the 
> tuning pins were shiny and clean without any staining.
>
> My big concern has to do with the standalone control wagon of the 
> disklavier.  The pressed fiberboard on the back was clean and dry and 
> didn't show any signs of swelling around the edges, however there was 
> rust around the screws of the power supply, as well a lot of rust on 
> the wheels on the bottom. Along with a big sticker that said do not 
> expose to rain or moisture!  :-)
>
> I called Yamaha and they have a replacement power supply if everything 
> else checks out. The also have a replacement key drive unit although 
> that is pretty expensive. All the other parts for this Disklavier 
> model aren't available anymore.
>
> I took lots of photos and I'll post some of them here. If anyone wants 
> to see anything in particular, just let me know, I probably took a 
> picture of it.  :-)
>
> So my thoughts are to replace the bass strings, bass damper felt, 
> possibly rebush the keys, replace keyslip pins, replace all the wheel 
> casters, pedals and pedal rods, and the power supply on the Disklavier.
>
> Oh, last but not least, the finish on the lid.  There are no cracks or 
> delaminations anywhere and I couldn't find a nick in the finish 
> anywhere for water to get in.  It looks like a good cleaning and 
> polishing should take care of the finish.
>
> I know this is incomplete and I'd welcome all thoughts and ideas.  :-)
>
> Funny thing, Yamaha said to make sure it was dry but then just plug it 
> in and see if it works.  :-)
>
> Thanks!
>
> Rob McCall
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 12, 2011, at 09:20 , Rob McCall wrote:
>
>> Thanks for all the great advice folks!
>>
>> Quick update...
>>
>> I just talked with the flood company.  He says he doesn't know 
>> anything about pianos but he thinks it's a Yamaha baby grand. He says 
>> it's electronic. Upon further investigation, I determined it has a 
>> player in it.  Possibly a Disklavier system.  He told me that the 
>> piano was set up in the home with the lid closed when a water pipe 
>> burst directly above the piano and approximately 100,000 gallons of 
>> water dumped on to the piano and filled up the house.  When they came 
>> in, RH was at 99% in the home.
>>
>> A piano mover came and packed it up and it is now in storage on it's 
>> side at this company's warehouse. They are the insurance billers/ 
>> handlers.  I'm headed that way in about an hour to take a look at it. 
>> I'll know more in a while...
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Rob McCall
>


  • 9.  Water damaged piano

    Posted 10-13-2011 13:48 
    From Rob McCall <rob@mccallpiano.com>

So, does anyone have any proven methods of dealing with the insurance and the flood mitigation company that want solutions yesterday? The insurance company wants to pay it out, the owner wants their piano back, and the flood company doesn't want to store it.

I have no problem telling them that it needs to sit for awhile to see what will come up in the next few months, but it would be nice to have some tried and true method, verbiage, or something to drive the point home. Or maybe I can send them an estimate for what I found, plus some sort of disclaimer or caveat to cover the issues (and my rear) that may (will) come up 4-6 months down the road?

Regards,

Rob

On Oct 13, 2011, at 05:05 , Mike Spalding wrote:

> Rob,
> 
> Now that you've made a thorough inspection, thoroughly documented with notes and photos, the thing to do is wait through the dry season ( or longer if the insurance company will allow it) then re-inspect the piano to see if any new damage shows up.
> 
> Mike


  • 10.  Water damaged piano

    Posted 10-13-2011 14:27 
    From "Gerald Groot" <tunerboy3@comcast.net>

I just simply tell them flat out that the piano has to set for a good year
before we will know the full extent of the damages.  

There is no reason why the piano cannot be placed back into the customers
home for use.  It would probably be better for it anyway to be used and it
would probably also be setting in a drier environment than the storage
facility.  (You did not plug it in and try the Disk unit?)  

100,000 gallons???  That's a LOT of water dude!  I suspect that when your
year is up, you'll find a lot more rust thoughout the piano than is visible
right now. You can plan on replacing the bass wires if the greenish
substance was not there before. (No way to tell unless you've been servicing
the piano in the past.)  Possibly the dampers as you already mentioned and
maybe even hammers as well as the year goes on....  Who knows, really, what
might happen in the next year.  The hammers could pop for all you know from
the excessive humidity from all of that water.  Or, not!...  It's a wait and
see period of time.  Stop by periodically to check on things so you can keep
a fresh memory of what was there NOW and what has changed or not changed, on
each visit thereafter. Take LOTS of notes!!!!!  

I would not send them any estimates yet.  As of yet, you do not know the
full extent of all damages. While what you see today, may, be it... There
could be other things too.  That's why I suggest waiting.  I've discovered
that it takes time for all of it to show up.  Besides, it looks better to
just hold off and send in your estimate all at once.  

It is up to the customer to tell the insurance company that they do NOT want
to settle on it for one full year.  The insurance companies that I've dealt
with are usually pretty understanding about such things as that.  

Jer Groot



    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
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  • 11.  Water damaged piano

    Posted 10-13-2011 14:50 
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>

On 10/13/2011 2:47 PM, Rob McCall wrote:
> So, does anyone have any proven methods of dealing with the insurance
> and the flood mitigation company that want solutions yesterday? The
> insurance company wants to pay it out, the owner wants their piano
> back, and the flood company doesn't want to store it.

This was my thought at the first mention of waiting the months for it to 
dry out before committing. No universe I've ever inhabited has contained 
an insurance company that would agree to such a thing. They want it 
wrapped up NOW. My approach is a letter explaining that, since I can't 
accurately anticipate the long term damage until some long term has 
passed, the only way I can expedite the process is to assume the worst, 
and presume total or near total destruction. I include the damage repair 
estimate based on that presumption, and approximate replacement cost as 
an alternative, and turn it in.

I find this to be more dramatically effective than caveats and 
contingencies relying on guesses as to what damage was actually done, 
and puts the responsibility and risk on them rather than on me. The 
piano owner loves it, since it doesn't leave them twisting in the wind 
at the mercy of "that claim has already been settled" when the fenders 
fall off (as it were) next year.

But then, this is possibly why I don't get repeat calls from insurance 
companies too...

Ron N


  • 12.  Water damaged piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-13-2011 14:56 
    From William Monroe <bill@a440piano.net>

Agree with Mr. Nossaman here.  You can't predict, and caveats will not be
considered after the claim is settled.  Tell them to either wait a year, or
settle for a total loss since you can't possibly predict the extent of the
damage.

William R. Monroe




On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 3:49 PM, Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net> wrote:

> On 10/13/2011 2:47 PM, Rob McCall wrote:
>
>> So, does anyone have any proven methods of dealing with the insurance
>> and the flood mitigation company that want solutions yesterday? The
>> insurance company wants to pay it out, the owner wants their piano
>> back, and the flood company doesn't want to store it.
>>
>
> This was my thought at the first mention of waiting the months for it to
> dry out before committing. No universe I've ever inhabited has contained an
> insurance company that would agree to such a thing. They want it wrapped up
> NOW. My approach is a letter explaining that, since I can't accurately
> anticipate the long term damage until some long term has passed, the only
> way I can expedite the process is to assume the worst, and presume total or
> near total destruction. I include the damage repair estimate based on that
> presumption, and approximate replacement cost as an alternative, and turn it
> in.
>
> I find this to be more dramatically effective than caveats and
> contingencies relying on guesses as to what damage was actually done, and
> puts the responsibility and risk on them rather than on me. The piano owner
> loves it, since it doesn't leave them twisting in the wind at the mercy of
> "that claim has already been settled" when the fenders fall off (as it were)
> next year.
>
> But then, this is possibly why I don't get repeat calls from insurance
> companies too...
>
> Ron N
>


  • 13.  Water damaged piano

    Posted 10-13-2011 16:39 
    From Rob McCall <rob@mccallpiano.com>

Thanks Ron and William,

I talked with my local Yamaha Dealer and I have a comparable replacement cost (they won't like it), I'm working up a "worst case" scenario since I can't predict the future (most likely they won't like it), and I'll lay out my wait and see option ( they probably won't like this one, either), and I'll put it on my letterhead and send it off. I really appreciate your insight, along with all those who commented earlier.

Without everyone's help, this could've easily been a fiasco for me a year from now. Now I'm armed with the experience of others! :-) That's why I love this forum...!

Thanks again,

Rob McCall

On Oct 13, 2011, at 13:55 , William Monroe wrote:

> Agree with Mr. Nossaman here.  You can't predict, and caveats will not be considered after the claim is settled.  Tell them to either wait a year, or settle for a total loss since you can't possibly predict the extent of the damage.
> 
> William R. Monroe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 3:49 PM, Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net> wrote:
> On 10/13/2011 2:47 PM, Rob McCall wrote:
> So, does anyone have any proven methods of dealing with the insurance
> and the flood mitigation company that want solutions yesterday? The
> insurance company wants to pay it out, the owner wants their piano
> back, and the flood company doesn't want to store it.
> 
> This was my thought at the first mention of waiting the months for it to dry out before committing. No universe I've ever inhabited has contained an insurance company that would agree to such a thing. They want it wrapped up NOW. My approach is a letter explaining that, since I can't accurately anticipate the long term damage until some long term has passed, the only way I can expedite the process is to assume the worst, and presume total or near total destruction. I include the damage repair estimate based on that presumption, and approximate replacement cost as an alternative, and turn it in.
> 
> I find this to be more dramatically effective than caveats and contingencies relying on guesses as to what damage was actually done, and puts the responsibility and risk on them rather than on me. The piano owner loves it, since it doesn't leave them twisting in the wind at the mercy of "that claim has already been settled" when the fenders fall off (as it were) next year.
> 
> But then, this is possibly why I don't get repeat calls from insurance companies too...
> 
> Ron N
>


  • 14.  Water damaged piano

    Posted 10-13-2011 19:19 
    From Mike Spalding <mike.spalding1@frontier.com>

Rob,

Here's an excerpt from an inspection report I wrote in Oct. 2010 for a 
U1 that was in a flooded basement. In this case, the insurance company 
was willing to wait 6 months to settle, and the piano remained in the 
owners' home. If you like it, feel free to lift the parts that work for you.

"The piano was partially submerged (approximately 4? above bottom of 
knee-board, 8? above floor) during a recent flood.The owner minimized 
the damage by 1) immediately lifting the piano up on wood blocks, 2) 
cleaning, drying, and dehumidifying the room and the piano with2 room 
dehumidifiers.At the time I inspected the piano, the internal relative 
humidity of the piano was 55%.

All damage from immersion will not manifest immediately; it generally 
will appear in 3 phases:

1Immediate damage from the saturation and swelling of the wood, such as 
rust, glue failure, finish failure.This is what my recent inspection 
looked at.

2Damage duringthe drying out process due to shrinkage of the wood, 
including cracks, glue failure, finish failure.It is too soon to see 
this damage, as the piano has not totally dried out yet.

3Damage during subsequent years, due to weakening of materials during 
the immersion and initial drying.In effect, this is a shortening of the 
life of the piano:repairs which might be normal during the latter years 
of a piano?s life simply come earlier.Fear in the market place of this 
type of damage will never go away ? a piano that has been in water 
suffers a permanent reduction in its market value.The likelihood of some 
structural failures can be reduced by reinforcing some glued joints with 
screws or other mechanical fasteners, and replacing critical metal 
parts, such as strings or casters, which have begun to corrode.

Because the piano still retains significant moisture, my recent 
inspection only covers phase 1 damage, which is minimal.The most 
significant findings are rusted strings and casters, and swollen 
wood.The detailed itemization is attached.My findings are completely 
consistent with the report by Xxxx Yyyyy RPT Dated 8-10-2010.At this 
time, no repairs are recommended.

I recommend that the piano be inspected again in January or February, at 
which time the humidity in the piano should be at it?s seasonal 
minimum.At that time we can put together a recommendation of repairs to 
phase 1 and phase 2 damage, and preventive action aimed at phase 
3.Alternatively, if the insurance company will allow, the piano can be 
observed for a longer period of time to see what additional damage might 
manifest."



On 10/13/2011 2:47 PM, Rob McCall wrote:
> So, does anyone have any proven methods of dealing with the insurance and the flood mitigation company that want solutions yesterday? The insurance company wants to pay it out, the owner wants their piano back, and the flood company doesn't want to store it.
>
> I have no problem telling them that it needs to sit for awhile to see what will come up in the next few months, but it would be nice to have some tried and true method, verbiage, or something to drive the point home. Or maybe I can send them an estimate for what I found, plus some sort of disclaimer or caveat to cover the issues (and my rear) that may (will) come up 4-6 months down the road?
>
> Regards,
>
> Rob
>
> On Oct 13, 2011, at 05:05 , Mike Spalding wrote:
>
>> Rob,
>>
>> Now that you've made a thorough inspection, thoroughly documented with notes and photos, the thing to do is wait through the dry season ( or longer if the insurance company will allow it) then re-inspect the piano to see if any new damage shows up.
>>
>> Mike


  • 15.  Water damaged piano

    Posted 10-14-2011 07:53 
    From J Patrick Draine <jpdraine@gmail.com>

Good posts from a number of folks, but I don't see why the piano owner
should be subject to months of waiting before they can be assured they have
a functioning musical instrument without a cloud hanging over it. I think
encouraging the insurance company to replace the instrument (or at least the
pre-claim value) is the most straightforward way to proceed. If the
technician sees potential value in the now problematic instrument, he could
suggest a "salvage value", and make an offer. If he's "lucky" he might come
out ahead (or a higher bidder might get "stuck" if he is overly optimistic
and things turn bad).
Patrick Draine

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 9:18 PM, Mike Spalding
<mike.spalding1@frontier.com>wrote:

> Rob,
>
> Here's an excerpt from an inspection report I wrote in Oct. 2010 for a U1
> that was in a flooded basement. In this case, the insurance company was
> willing to wait 6 months to settle, and the piano remained in the owners'
> home. If you like it, feel free to lift the parts that work for you.
>
> "The piano was partially submerged (approximately 4? above bottom of
> knee-board, 8? above floor) during a recent flood.The owner minimized the
> damage by 1) immediately lifting the piano up on wood blocks, 2) cleaning,
> drying, and dehumidifying the room and the piano with2 room dehumidifiers.At
> the time I inspected the piano, the internal relative humidity of the piano
> was 55%.
>
> All damage from immersion will not manifest immediately; it generally will
> appear in 3 phases:
>
> 1Immediate damage from the saturation and swelling of the wood, such as
> rust, glue failure, finish failure.This is what my recent inspection looked
> at.
>
> 2Damage duringthe drying out process due to shrinkage of the wood,
> including cracks, glue failure, finish failure.It is too soon to see this
> damage, as the piano has not totally dried out yet.
>
> 3Damage during subsequent years, due to weakening of materials during the
> immersion and initial drying.In effect, this is a shortening of the life of
> the piano:repairs which might be normal during the latter years of a piano?s
> life simply come earlier.Fear in the market place of this type of damage
> will never go away ? a piano that has been in water suffers a permanent
> reduction in its market value.The likelihood of some structural failures can
> be reduced by reinforcing some glued joints with screws or other mechanical
> fasteners, and replacing critical metal parts, such as strings or casters,
> which have begun to corrode.
>
> Because the piano still retains significant moisture, my recent inspection
> only covers phase 1 damage, which is minimal.The most significant findings
> are rusted strings and casters, and swollen wood.The detailed itemization is
> attached.My findings are completely consistent with the report by Xxxx Yyyyy
> RPT Dated 8-10-2010.At this time, no repairs are recommended.
>
> I recommend that the piano be inspected again in January or February, at
> which time the humidity in the piano should be at it?s seasonal minimum.At
> that time we can put together a recommendation of repairs to phase 1 and
> phase 2 damage, and preventive action aimed at phase 3.Alternatively, if the
> insurance company will allow, the piano can be observed for a longer period
> of time to see what additional damage might manifest."
>
>
>
>
> On 10/13/2011 2:47 PM, Rob McCall wrote:
>
>> So, does anyone have any proven methods of dealing with the insurance and
>> the flood mitigation company that want solutions yesterday? The insurance
>> company wants to pay it out, the owner wants their piano back, and the flood
>> company doesn't want to store it.
>>
>> I have no problem telling them that it needs to sit for awhile to see what
>> will come up in the next few months, but it would be nice to have some tried
>> and true method, verbiage, or something to drive the point home. Or maybe I
>> can send them an estimate for what I found, plus some sort of disclaimer or
>> caveat to cover the issues (and my rear) that may (will) come up 4-6 months
>> down the road?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Rob
>>
>> On Oct 13, 2011, at 05:05 , Mike Spalding wrote:
>>
>>  Rob,
>>>
>>> Now that you've made a thorough inspection, thoroughly documented with
>>> notes and photos, the thing to do is wait through the dry season ( or longer
>>> if the insurance company will allow it) then re-inspect the piano to see if
>>> any new damage shows up.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>
>


  • 16.  Water damaged piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-14-2011 09:35 
    From "David Love" <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>

They are subject to waiting because the technician is on the hook if they certify the piano healthy before the actual outcome is known. If it takes time for problems to manifest themselves then it's simply their job to disclose that. If the insurance company insists on an immediate assessment of potential long term problems or a certification that there won't be any then the tech would be wise to simply declare it a total loss and explain why an earlier and reliable assessment may not be possible. In no way should the tech put themselves at risk here.. 
David Love
www.davidlovepianos.com
(sent from bb)


    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message


  • 17.  Water damaged piano

    Posted 10-14-2011 15:16 
    From "Robin Stevens" <pianobee@bigpond.com>

I live in a small town that had a flood in 1934 (sea water) a lot of pianos
had a foot of sea water through them. I arrived in the town in 1975 and all
of these piano after fifty year had bass strings that would go pop in the
night  but were still tunable. Now all of those pianos have multiply popped
strings. It's not the six month time lag but further down the track!!

Robin


  • 18.  Water damaged piano

    Posted 10-12-2011 23:09 
    From Tom Gorley <tomgorley88@sonic.net>

My only comment here is about the packing.  Make sure it's breathable so as not to trap in the moisture(what little there seems to be).
>  

>   Tom Gorley
> Registered Piano Technician     
>       





On Oct 12, 2011, at 9:20 AM, Rob McCall wrote:

> Thanks for all the great advice folks!
> 
> Quick update...
> 
> I just talked with the flood company.  He says he doesn't know anything about pianos but he thinks it's a Yamaha baby grand. He says it's electronic. Upon further investigation, I determined it has a player in it.  Possibly a Disklavier system.  He told me that the piano was set up in the home with the lid closed when a water pipe burst directly above the piano and approximately 100,000 gallons of water dumped on to the piano and filled up the house.  When they came in, RH was at 99% in the home.
> 
> A piano mover came and packed it up and it is now in storage on it's side at this company's warehouse. They are the insurance billers/ handlers.  I'm headed that way in about an hour to take a look at it. I'll know more in a while...
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Rob McCall
> 
> McCall Piano Service, LLC
> www.mccallpiano.com
> Murrieta, CA
> 951-698-1875
> 
> 
> On Oct 12, 2011, at 04:56 , Gerald Groot wrote:
> 
>> I've found that rust in particular, will not necessarily show up for a full
>> year afterward.  That can take quite a while to show its brutal head.  I
>> generally recommend not to settle with the insurance company for a good
>> year. You will know for sure by that time, the full extent of the damage
>> caused.
>> 
>> Jer Groot
> 
> 
>


  • 19.  Water damaged piano

    Posted 10-11-2011 20:21 
    From Rob McCall <rob@mccallpiano.com>

Thanks, Del!  That's some great advice! This gives me a great game plan going into the process.  

I should know more tomorrow morning. All I was able to ascertain is that the water source came from above and rained down on the piano.  And it did this for a while, apparently...

Thanks again!

Rob

On Oct 11, 2011, at 16:07 , Delwin D Fandrich wrote:

> Start by insisting that the piano be up on its feet. But, before it goes up inspect the bottom of the piano; check the soundboard to rim joint, make sure the ribs are solidly glued. Usually you will be able to see a ?waterline? which will tell you how high the water has been. (Assuming it was in a flood-type situation.) Determine how old the piano is. Is it old enough to worry about animal hide glue joints? If it is a more modern piano?one using a thermal-setting water-proof adhesive?you probably won?t have structural problems. Pull the action and examine the action parts. Even if you don?t see evidence of direct water damage make sure the centers are free (not rusted stiff) and not loose. Listen to the piano?assuming it is playable?how are the hammers? Check the pinblock to make sure there is no delaminating going on. Tune through the bass (the piano was on its side, right?) and see how the pins feel. How do the metal parts look? How much rust can you see? How are the dampers? The damper levers? The damper guide rail?
>  
> After you?ve given your initial inspection, explain that before you are willing to put anything about the pianos condition in writing you?ll want to check the piano again after it has been dry for a couple of months?when I check a piano that has actually been in a flood I want it to be dried out for about four to six months before I render any final decision on salvageability and the costs involved. It doesn?t sound like this has actually been in a flood but you don?t yet know how high the water might have gone. I?ve found decently built old pianos falling apart after a flood that came only six inches up on the walls and I?ve found other pianos that were literally floating in four or five feet of water that cleaned up reasonably well with only hammers and dampers and a few assorted bits and pieces.
>  
> ddf
>  
> Delwin D Fandrich
> Piano Design & Fabrication
> 6939 Foothill Court SW, Olympia, Washington 98512 USA
> Phone  360.515.0119 ? Cell  360.388.6525
> del@fandrichpiano.com ? ddfandrich@gmail.com