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Pre-Purchase Inspection Liability

  • 1.  Pre-Purchase Inspection Liability

    Posted 04-25-2001 05:31
    From "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>
    
    I had a near collision with a pre-purchase inspection I did 2-1/2 years ago
    yesterday. I'm wondering what other's experience has been and whether you
    folks take any special precautions to reduce your liability.
    
    My client bought a 1920 George Steck 5' 6" grand in 1998 for $2500. The
    piano is all original except for the keytops and black lacquer finish.
    Everything functioned, but no better than any other non-maintained 80 year
    old piano. At the time I told him that nothing appeared broken on the piano,
    but that it needed (at a minimum) a full action refurbishing to make it work
    acceptably for a young student.
    
    They bought the piano and a week later I did a pitch raise and tuning. After
    2-1/2 years and four reminder cards, I guess they figured the piano should
    be tuned again. So I tuned it yesterday. While tuning, I noticed that the
    dip was way shallow (averaging about 5/16"), hammers were missing strings,
    dampers were leaking BIG time, etc. Mom mentioned that the daughter/student
    said that the piano did not play right - it did not play like the teacher's.
    No doubt. Then she told me that her daughter has been taking lessons for ten
    years, is very serious about the piano, and will likely continue for years
    to come! So then I immediately launched into my lecture about the
    performance one can expect from an non-maintained 80 year old piano (can you
    say zip?). And I talked about either sinking a few thousand into their piano
    and end up with something that is still not all that great, or look for a
    new/newer piano that will better meet their daughter's needs.
    
    What I did not realize at the time (but I sure did after DAD got home and
    joined in the conversation), was that I was telling them that they had a bad
    piano, even though two years ago "I told them it was a good piano". My
    recollection of the inspection day was that I told them it needed some work
    to function properly, there were no major problems with the piano (except
    for 80 years worth of wear), and that $2500 was a fair market value for the
    instrument. He indicated that he did not want to spend more than that
    amount. I'm not really sure what else I might have said at that time
    regarding how appropriate the instrument was for a student. I know that
    today, I would address that topic in detail.
    
    Anyway, I think the awkward situation is clear. In their mind I "recommended
    the piano", and in my mind I told them that $2500 was a fair market value
    for the instrument, that there were no major problems with the piano, and
    that they really need to spend around $1,500 to make the piano function at a
    minimally acceptable level. Take this situation just one step further and
    you could find somebody suing someone else.
    
    It seems to me that a written report would be required to minimize such
    situations from arising. I hate written reports. I would have to up my
    inspection fee. How do you'all address this potential danger?
    
    Terry Farrell
    Piano Tuning & Service
    Tampa, Florida
    mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com
    


  • 2.  Pre-Purchase Inspection Liability

    Posted 04-25-2001 06:50
    From "Z! Reinhardt" <diskladame@provide.net>
    
    A couple of things here, for the 2 cents they are worth ...
    
    When you hear "for my child to take lessons on ..." find out how long they
    have been studying piano, what kind of music they play or plan to play (pop
    tunes or Stravinsky).
    
    Written evidence does not necessarily mean an entire formal report.  Some
    notes about the piano scratched onto a 2-part form (many styles available
    from Office Max or Staples) has served me well.  Notes can include
    recommendations for future service, future repairs, whatever, so those
    points you talked about are in writing.  The customer gets one copy, you
    keep the other.  If the customer wants a formal report, add an hour or so to
    the evaluation charges to make it worth your while to do that report.
    
    Z! Reinhardt  RPT
    Ann Arbor  MI
    diskladame@provide.net
    
    
    


  • 3.  Pre-Purchase Inspection Liability

    Posted 04-25-2001 08:29
    From "Joseph Garrett" <joegarrett@earthlink.net>
    
    Terry,
    Write the details on PAPER! That's really a no-brainer. AND CHARGE MORE! For
    the most part, all technicians do not charge what they are worth! It's high
    time we all quit under-selling ourselves.
    Regards, Joe Garrett
    


  • 4.  Pre-Purchase Inspection Liability

    Posted 04-25-2001 08:59
    From Jon Page <jonpage@mediaone.net>
    
    You reported to them at the time of your inspection that the piano was 
    structurally sound.
    That was all they requested.  Had they asked your opinion as to whether it 
    was suitable for
    an advanced student is another matter.
    
    A few hours of top action regulation will bring the piano around to a more 
    playable state.
    
    The father is probably unwilling to pour money into the upkeep of the piano 
    but will not
    hesitate to get the newest ride around mower or superfluous equipment for 
    his boat.
    
    Don't feel you are responsible for their misplaced priorities.
    
    Regards,
    Jon Page,   piano technician
    Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Mass.
    mailto:jonpage@mediaone.net
    http://www.stanwoodpiano.com
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    


  • 5.  Pre-Purchase Inspection Liability

    Posted 04-25-2001 09:41
    From "Diane Hofstetter" <dianepianotuner@hotmail.com>
    
       Terry,
    
       All of our appraisals take us a lot of time to look the piano over very
       carefully and to discuss in detail with the client exactly what their
       wants are in connection with the piano they are inquiring about.  The
       written reports are detailed and with appropriate disclaimers.  The fee
       is the same as for a tuning because it takes the same amount of time
       and at least as much effort what with preparing the papers and all.
    
        Appraisals for insurance companies are even costlier as they
       frequently require a lot of interaction with the insurance company
       later. (ie. 7:00am. phone calls from adjusters  who want verbal
       justifications for what your report detailed.)
    
       I am currently working on making modules in  a word processor in my
       laptop to be able to assemble as the need arises.  Thus the process of
       writing the letter should be substantially shortened.  Estimates for
       repairs and rebuilding are already in my bookkeeping system in modular
       form.
    
       I remember once, years ago, when we were still new, a customer found a
       piano and wanted our opinion.  The deal he found was _so good_ that we
       didn't want to sound too enthusiastic and cause the seller to up the
       price or any such thing.  So, as we were leaving, letting the two
       parties alone to make their deal, our customer followed us out and said
       that he had told the seller he would think it over.
    
       I told him, "Andy, go back and buy it!"  Later he told us that the
       seller told him he could see what we were doing and wondered why he
       didn't buy it right off!  Probably if we had had papers in those days
       it might have helped him understand better.
    
       Diane
    
       >From: "Farrell"
    
       >Reply-To: pianotech@ptg.org
    
       >To:
    
       >Subject: Pre-Purchase Inspection Liability
    
       >Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 07:31:07 -0400
    
       >
    
       >I had a near collision with a pre-purchase inspection I did 2-1/2
       years ago
    
       >yesterday. I'm wondering what other's experience has been and whether
       you
    
       >folks take any special precautions to reduce your liability.
    
       >
    
       >My client bought a 1920 George Steck 5' 6" grand in 1998 for $2500.
       The
    
       >piano is all original except for the keytops and black lacquer finish.
    
       >Everything functioned, but no better than any other non-maintained 80
       year
    
       >old piano. At the time I told him that nothing appeared broken on the
       piano,
    
       >but that it needed (at a minimum) a full action refurbishing to make
       it work
    
       >acceptably for a young student.
    
       >
    
       >They bought the piano and a week later I did a pitch raise and tuning.
       After
    
       >2-1/2 years and four reminder cards, I guess they figured the piano
       should
    
       >be tuned again. So I tuned it yesterday. While tuning, I noticed that
       the
    
       >dip was way shallow (averaging about 5/16"), hammers were missing
       strings,
    
       >dampers were leaking BIG time, etc. Mom mentioned that the
       daughter/student
    
       >said that the piano did not play right - it did not play like the
       teacher's.
    
       >No doubt. Then she told me that her daughter has been taking lessons
       for ten
    
       >years, is very serious about the piano, and will likely continue for
       years
    
       >to come! So then I immediately launched into my lecture about the
    
       >performance one can expect from an non-maintained 80 year old piano
       (can you
    
       >say zip?). And I talked about either sinking a few thousand into their
       piano
    
       >and end up with something that is still not all that great, or look
       for a
    
       >new/newer piano that will better meet their daughter's needs.
    
       >
    
       >What I did not realize at the time (but I sure did after DAD got home
       and
    
       >joined in the conversation), was that I was telling them that they had
       a bad
    
       >piano, even though two years ago "I told them it was a good piano". My
    
       >recollection of the inspection day was that I told them it needed some
       work
    
       >to function properly, there were no major problems with the piano
       (except
    
       >for 80 years worth of wear), and that $2500 was a fair market value
       for the
    
       >instrument. He indicated that he did not want to spend more than that
    
       >amount. I'm not really sure what else I might have said at that time
    
       >regarding how appropriate the instrument was for a student. I know
       that
    
       >today, I would address that topic in detail.
    
       >
    
       >Anyway, I think the awkward situation is clear. In their mind I
       "recommended
    
       >the piano", and in my mind I told them that $2500 was a fair market
       value
    
       >for the instrument, that there were no major problems with the piano,
       and
    
       >that they really need to spend around $1,500 to make the piano
       function at a
    
       >minimally acceptable level. Take this situation just one step further
       and
    
       >you could find somebody suing someone else.
    
       >
    
       >It seems to me that a written report would be required to minimize
       such
    
       >situations from arising. I hate written reports. I would have to up my
    
       >inspection fee. How do you'all address this potential danger?
    
       >
    
       >Terry Farrell
    
       >Piano Tuning & Service
    
       >Tampa, Florida
    
       >mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com
    
       >
         __________________________________________________________________
    
       Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at [1]http://explorer.msn.com
    
    References
    
       1. http://explorer.msn.com/
    


  • 6.  Pre-Purchase Inspection Liability

    Posted 04-25-2001 10:06
    From Glenn Grafton <glenn@graftonpiano.com>
    
    snip
    >Anyway, I think the awkward situation is clear. In their mind I "recommended
    >the piano", and in my mind I told them that $2500 was a fair market value
    >for the instrument, that there were no major problems with the piano, and
    >that they really need to spend around $1,500 to make the piano function at a
    >minimally acceptable level. Take this situation just one step further and
    >you could find somebody suing someone else.
    >
    >It seems to me that a written report would be required to minimize such
    >situations from arising. I hate written reports. I would have to up my
    >inspection fee. How do you'all address this potential danger?
    
    They heard what they wanted to hear. The fact that they got a tuner 
    to look at the piano is a plus.
    
    On that note, we had a church that we were talking about purchasing a 
    Yamaha grand. Turned out they found a used Yamaha grand for a real 
    steal. Told the people they were going to go ahead and buy it. Turned 
    out that it's not a Yamaha, but a Weber, it's not a 6' grand but a 
    4'11." None of the musicians have played it yet even. We had a 
    lengthy conversation about what uses the piano would be used for etc. 
    and a strong recommendation by me that they really needed to get 
    their musicians to play the piano first.
    
    When I evaluate a piano I always ask what are they planning on using 
    the piano for and who will be playing it.
    -- 
    Glenn Grafton
    Grafton Piano & Organ Co.
    1081 County Line Rd.
    Souderton PA 18964
    http://www.graftonpiano.com/
    glenn@graftonpiano.com
    800-272-5980
    
    The box said "Requires Windows 95, or better." So I bought a Macintosh.
    


  • 7.  Pre-Purchase Inspection Liability

    Posted 04-25-2001 10:37
    From Yardarm103669107@AOL.COM
    
    Terry:
    Up your inspection fee, put it in writing, and add disclaimers based on 
    maintenance and followup on whatever you recommend. CYA.
    PR-J
    


  • 8.  Pre-Purchase Inspection Liability

    Posted 04-25-2001 11:15
    From MoodyPiano@AOL.COM
    
    In a message dated 04/25/2001 12:16:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
    dianepianotuner@hotmail.com writes:
    
    
    > I am currently working on making modules in  a word processor in my laptop 
    > to be able to assemble as the need arises.  Thus the process of writing the 
    > letter should be substantially shortened.  Estimates for repairs and 
    > rebuilding are already in my bookkeeping system in modular form.
    > 
    
    Terry & List:
    I definitely think that "writing it down" is the best way to go.  Even if you 
    told someone everything at the time of the appraisal sometimes they hear only 
    what they want to and not what you told them and with a verbal only appraisal 
    there's nothing to prove what you actually said.
    
    An idea for those out there that prefer not to type.  Use a 2-part form so 
    that you can write your information down about the individual parts of the 
    piano while appraising it, sort of like a checklist, and then both you and 
    the customer will have a record of what was said.  A custom-made form is 
    probably what would be needed.  Usually the cost of a custom-made form is not 
    too much more than the standard forms offered by most business product 
    companies.  You could build it into the cost of your appraisal.  In the long 
    run I think it would be worth it. 
    
    NEBS is a company that we use for our 2-part (carbonless) forms.  We have 
    also used them for custom 2-part forms and they have been great.  Phone: 
    800-225-6380  Web. www.nebs.com.
    
    Hope this helps!
    ~Lanie
    
    Moody Piano & Organ
    Marlborough, MA
    


  • 9.  Pre-Purchase Inspection Liability

    Posted 04-25-2001 11:32
    From Wimblees@AOL.COM
    
    In a message dated 4/25/01 6:51:08 AM Central Daylight Time, 
    mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com writes:
    
    
    > It seems to me that a written report would be required to minimize such
    > situations from arising. I hate written reports. I would have to up my
    > inspection fee. How do you'all address this potential danger?
    > 
    > Terry Farrell
    > Piano Tuning & Service
    > 
    
    Terry
    
    On the bottom of my appraisal form I have the following written. I got this 
    from Bob Russell Jr. 
    
    "I estimate the value as listed for insurance or other purposes at the 
    current replacement value, excluding Federal and other taxes.  In making this 
    appraisal, the Appraiser assumes no liability with respect to any action that 
    may be taken on the basis of this appraisal."
    
    It doesn't take you totally off the hook, in that you still have to do a good 
    job of appraising and evaluating the piano. But it does give you some 
    protection.
    
    I hope this helps.
    
    Willem 
    


  • 10.  Pre-Purchase Inspection Liability

    Posted 04-25-2001 13:38
    From J Patrick Draine <draine@mediaone.net>
    
    >
    >It seems to me that a written report would be required to minimize such
    >situations from arising. I hate written reports. I would have to up my
    >inspection fee. How do you'all address this potential danger?
    >
    
    As you wrote, up that inspection fee, to an amount that makes you 
    *happy* to write it up!
    I've "been there" too; it's important that we have enough 
    documentation (and talk with the customer long enough to understand 
    their needs and expectations).
    
    Patrick Draine
    


  • 11.  Pre-Purchase Inspection Liability

    Posted 04-25-2001 13:39
    From Richard Brekne <rbrekne@broadpark.no>
    
    Terry, you run into this kinda thing all the time... and what it really boils
    down to is that the customer doesnt reallllllllyyyyy want to "hear" anything
    except words like "inexpensive" and "good enough" or "no big problems".... They
    are not primarily concerned with the piano's quality, nor their daughters
    practice situation. They are primarilly interested in their pocketbooks.... to
    the degree that they simply refuse to make a concerted effort to confront this
    instrument and the investment it represents from an informed and to some degree
    educated standpoint...
    
    In short...they dont really give a flying tomato. But such folks often enough
    will try and shirk the blame if anything goes wrong with their little "we can
    buy the world for 9.95 plan".
    
    Dont worry about it. Blow them off and move on. The only thing you can do to
    avoid such people is to not give appraisals... or make them written and very
    specific.
    
    As for liability.... not... they cant touch you in this situation. You havent
    misled them, 2500 dollars is nothing for an instrument... nononononono... dont
    worry, be happy... and drop such customers like a lead brick.
    
    JMV
    
    Farrell wrote:
    
    > I had a near collision with a pre-purchase inspection I did 2-1/2 years ago
    > yesterday. I'm wondering what other's experience has been and whether you
    > folks take any special precautions to reduce your liability.
    >
    >
    > Terry Farrell
    > Piano Tuning & Service
    > Tampa, Florida
    > mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com
    
    --
    Richard Brekne
    RPT, N.P.T.F.
    Bergen, Norway
    mailto:rbrekne@broadpark.no
    


  • 12.  Pre-Purchase Inspection Liability

    Posted 04-25-2001 16:15
    From "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>
    
    Thanks Z! and all other others who responded. I think I will develope
    something along the line of what Z! has recommended (as well as others).
    That way I can leave a copy of the important points in writing, and make a
    formal report an extra charge. I think also, being as these things are often
    short notice and require their separate trips, add an hourly travel fee for
    anything more than 15 minutes away from my base.
    
    Terry Farrell
    Piano Tuning & Service
    Tampa, Florida
    mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com
    
    


  • 13.  Pre-Purchase Inspection Liability

    Posted 04-26-2001 06:59
    From Newton Hunt <nhunt@optonline.net>
    
    Z! is correct.
    
    I charge the same as a tuning for an appraisal and I use the following form that I
    fill out, one for me, one for them.  I check everything and make notes according to
    what is found.
    
    This tells me what I saw and said even years later.
    
    		Newton
    
    Owner                                           For
    
    Address                                         Address
    
    CSZ                                             CSZ
    
    Phone                                           Phone
    
                                   PIANO  APPRAISAL
    
    Make                                            Bass strings
    
    Model                                           Tuning pins
    
    Serial                              Age         Key tops
    
    Case Wood                                       Key bushings
    
    Finish                                          Key felts and Frame
    
    Lid or Top                                      Key pins
    
    Fall board                                      Action rails
    
    Music Desk                                      Hammers
    
    Legs                                            Shanks
    
    Casters                                         Knuckles / butts
    
    Lyre and Pedals                                 Rails
    
    Braces                                          Wippens
    
    Trap work                                       Flanges
    
    Ribs                                            Backchecks
    
    Rim                                             Dampers / Timing
    
    Crown                                           Damper guide bushings
    
    Soundboard                                      Key end felt
    
    Bridges                                         Regulation
    
    Bearomg                                         Pitch and Tuning
    
    Plate                                           Voicing
    
    Pinblock                                        Bench
    
    Treble strings                                  General
    
    Comments
    


  • 14.  Pre-Purchase Inspection Liability

    Posted 04-26-2001 17:46
    From "Z! Reinhardt" <diskladame@provide.net>
    
    Short notice requests for piano service of any kind?
    
    1]  Find out when the customer would like to have it completed by
    
    2]  Hit them with a short-notice fee (read: nuisance fee) in addition to the
    service fee if the service request involves less time than the normal
    interval between setting the appointment and performing the service.
    
    3]  Hit them with an off-turf fee if the piano is outside of your normal
    service area.
    
    Bottom line:  Make their convenience worth your while.
    
    Z! Reinhardt  RPT
    Ann Arbor  MI
    diskladame@provide.net
    
    


  • 15.  Pre-Purchase Inspection Liability

    Posted 04-26-2001 21:26
      |   view attached
    From Greg Newell <gnewell@ameritech.net>
    
    Newton,
        Thank you for this. I have made a nice looking paper out of it (attached) and I'd
    like to know if anyone knows how to turn this into a template where the blanks can be
    filled in and then printed. Any whizzes out there in Microsoft Word?
    
    Greg
    
    Newton Hunt wrote:
    
    > Z! is correct.
    >
    > I charge the same as a tuning for an appraisal and I use the following form that I
    > fill out, one for me, one for them.  I check everything and make notes according to
    > what is found.
    >
    > This tells me what I saw and said even years later.
    >
    >                 Newton
    >
    > Owner                                           For
    >
    > Address                                         Address
    >
    > CSZ                                             CSZ
    >
    > Phone                                           Phone
    >
    >                                PIANO  APPRAISAL
    >
    > Make                                            Bass strings
    >
    > Model                                           Tuning pins
    >
    > Serial                              Age         Key tops
    >
    > Case Wood                                       Key bushings
    >
    > Finish                                          Key felts and Frame
    >
    > Lid or Top                                      Key pins
    >
    > Fall board                                      Action rails
    >
    > Music Desk                                      Hammers
    >
    > Legs                                            Shanks
    >
    > Casters                                         Knuckles / butts
    >
    > Lyre and Pedals                                 Rails
    >
    > Braces                                          Wippens
    >
    > Trap work                                       Flanges
    >
    > Ribs                                            Backchecks
    >
    > Rim                                             Dampers / Timing
    >
    > Crown                                           Damper guide bushings
    >
    > Soundboard                                      Key end felt
    >
    > Bridges                                         Regulation
    >
    > Bearomg                                         Pitch and Tuning
    >
    > Plate                                           Voicing
    >
    > Pinblock                                        Bench
    >
    > Treble strings                                  General
    >
    > Comments
    
    --
    Greg Newell
    Greg's Piano Fort?
    12970 Harlon Ave.
    Lakewood, Ohio 44107
    216-226-3791
    mailto:gnewell@ameritech.net
    

    Attachment(s)

    doc
    Piano Appraisal.doc   22 KB 1 version


  • 16.  Pre-Purchase Inspection Liability

    Posted 04-26-2001 22:26
    From GBOLES@AOL.COM
    
    Greg,
         If you have Microsoft Access (Database), it will allow you to create the 
    various fields of your choice, and then link it directly into your Microsoft 
    Word document, where Access will fill in the blanks. I haven't done this in a 
    while, but after I figured it out the first time, it was not too difficult. 
    If you keep an Access database, you will be glad you learned this little 
    trick.
    
    Greg Boles
    Baton Rouge, LA
    


  • 17.  Pre-Purchase Inspection Liability

    Posted 04-27-2001 05:41
    From "John M. Formsma" <jformsma@dixie-net.com>
    
    Greg,
    
    Select "Save As..." from the "File" menu, and change the document type from
    a document to a template. You should have a directory for Templates, which
    is by default located somewhere like this:
    
    C:\Program Files\Microsoft Office\Templates.
    
    If you save your file in this directory, you will now have the ability to
    use this template by starting a "new" document from the "File" menu.
    
    John Formsma
    Blue Mountain, MS
    
    mailto:jformsma@dixie-net.com
    
    


  • 18.  Pre-Purchase Inspection Liability

    Posted 04-27-2001 06:36
    From Newton Hunt <nhunt@optonline.net>
    
    Hi Greg,
    
    You missed the point of my arrangement of the items.  The idea is to start from the
    outside top to bottom to the inside front to back and up and down in one continuous
    contiguous process.
    
    No backing and forthing, no overlooked items and no duplication of effort or motion. 
    I am very lazy so I want to do it once and once only.
    
    Have another look at my list.
    
    Your is very nicely done and will work also.
    
    Regards,
    
    		Newton