From "David Love" <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>
Ed:
Unfortunately, I used your post for springboard to address other comments.
I am using sonority and consonance interchangeably in that I think the
appeal of the WT on smaller pianos (which was more the issue I was
addressing), and the comments about greater sonority, are based on greater
consonance of the keys most people happen to find themselves playing in.
The difference between keys in WT is another matter on which reasonable
people might agree or not and we've hashed out that discussion in the past.
Let it be said that the appeal of WT on lesser pianos, for me, is the
consonance (using your definitions) which tends to give them a more pleasing
sound in certain keys. I don't think it improves the sound of the piano in
the outer keys and for those who find themselves (or their customers)
venturing frequently into the outer keys I'm not sure that the WT, then,
would have the same appeal or effect. In that respect, I would argue for
the use of very mild WTs. Personally, I don't like the sound of the Prinz
for Beethoven in that section. A 21-cent-wide third is too severe for my
ear. While it does create a "novel" sound which is intriguing at first, the
novelty wears off quickly, at least for me. YEMV (Your ears may vary).
David Love
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
www.davidlovepianos.com
Original Message-----
From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
Of A440A@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 5:04 PM
To: pianotech@ptg.org
Subject: Re: Temperament selection
Greetings,
I wrote:
>the question is how much tempering can a third take
>before it becomes a liability rather than an asset. Few musicians or
>listeners register a faster third as "out of tune" until it exceeds some
limit. That
>limit is, in some degree, dependant on the listener's expectation.
David writes:
<< The only problem with that argument is that on one hand you are arguing
that
a WT piano will seem to have greater sonority than an ET one which I would
attribute to the impact of the keys in which the 3rds are more pure. Then
you are arguing that listeners will not register a faster third as "out of
tune" until it reaches a certain limit. While I agree that there is a
window, you can't have it both ways. <<
I am a little hazy on why My post was seen as an argument. I posed
an
observation on one of the factors that affects people's response to non-ET
tuning and I do not make any mention of sonority. I consider the primary
temperament characteristics to be ones of consonance but I don't consider
consonance and sonority to be the same thing.
Even consonance bears some discussion, since it may be judged by
very
widely disparate scales, (to pun). A just third is certainly consonant, but
in a 12 note octave, payment for that justness is made in bigger thirds
elsewhere. Some people consider only this perfection to be "consonant" and
everything else is simply a matter of dissonance. Others consider
consonance to be a
variable quality, only becoming dissonant at some personal level. I
consider
consonance to be relative, (but I digress.)
Listeners rarely register a faster than ET third as out of tune, they
are not listening like piano techs. The version of the Pathetique on
"Beethoven in the Temperaments" is a prime example. The Ab section, on a
Prinz, has
an unrelenting 21 cent third in the harmony. Tuners have often told me how
out
of tune that sounds, and music lovers have often told me that it was the
most
expressive recording of that piece they had heard. This is why I mentioned
the reception being dependent on expectations. As tuners, we rarely can be
objective about what we hear, since many of us, by training, compare what we
hear
to what we expect.
>> If you argue that WTs sound more
sonorous than ET and that people respond to that difference then it is the
slower beating thirds which are responsible for that, even if they are only
slightly more slowly beating. <<
A WT has keys that are more consonant, yes, but that is not the
attraction. It is the musical texture that arises that gives the music a
more
engaging quality. If composed skillfully, when a passage moves into more
dissonant
territory, then comes back, the listener feels a resolution without being
consciously aware of why. I think that people respond to this on a
subliminal
level,(techs are excluded, since we are usually listening to the tuning as
opposed
to the music), and the attraction comes from the texture, not the simple
fact
that there are more consonant intervals in some keys. A friend that played
a
1/4 comma meantone told me that after about 10 minutes, he was bored. He
said that everything sounded the same, except the wolf keys, which he
couldn't
use.
I think the biggest shortcoming of ET and MT is their quality of
"sameness" to the keys.
>>By the same token it would then stand to
reason that if you played in keys on the backside of the circle of
fifths--those keys with 4 or more sharps and flats--that those keys would
sound less sonorous, which is what I hear. <<
It depends on how those keys are used. Consonance is not the be-all
and
end-all of music, and it is not the only benefit to be found in a WT.
Composers often write 10ths or 17ths in the remote keys that create
beating at speeds found in vocal music's vibrato. Used in this way,
tempering
becomes a coloring agent without providing dissonance.
>>While the contrast may create a
more unpredictable and therefore interesting palette, I think it can be
misleading to use the sonority argument as there is both greater and lesser
sonority depending on the key. >>
The contrast is not exactly unpredictable. The rise and fall of the
tempering in the passages as one goes through a sonata almost always seems
to
be intended, Composers, it appears, took advantage of the various levels of
consonance to strengthen the emotional power of their music. In classical
music,
we never find a light-hearted, happy melody in F# or B nor do we usually
find
sad dreary music in Am, etc.
The manner in which Beethoven used the keys demonstrates his ability
to use the temperament to create coherently increasing tension leading up to
resolutions. In this, the contrast is very predictable. It is also possibly
the
reason he was so adamant about people not transposing his keyboard works.
They simply do not hold together if played in a key other than that which he
composed them in. If transposed, on a WT, instead of three or four chords
becoming increasingly tempered as he composes up to a climax, then resolving
to a
place of lower tension,(ie, tempering), in a transposed key, the same
passage
produces an odd hodgepodge of tempering and often has a passage resolving
into a
much more highly tempered key, which just sounds and feels awful.
On ET, none of these questions or considerations matters, but on a
WT, pieces written during the WT era really only work the way the composer
intended in the key that it was written. As I write that, it occurs to me
that
that must be true for all music. Pitch *has* gone up a half step during the
piano's lifetime, but the relative values of tempering have been extremely
consistant from Werckmeister through the Ellis documented factory workers
200 years
later.
>>Also, I find it somewhat contradictory to
say that people can both hear the difference and respond to it but don't
really register the difference at the same time.<<
This is exactly what happens, in my experience. The effects of
temperament on the non-technician are usually subliminal. The autonomous
nervous
system registers the differing levels of tempering, as evidenced by
indicators of
emotional states. I think it would be more accurate to say that people feel
the difference, but even so, it seems to me that music written before 1900
has much more effect when played on a tuning that supports that harmonic
architecture. Some of the later composers don't seem to be as sensitive to
temperament, and some of the earlier ones demand it to be properly
presented. I am
thinking about the meantone era, mainly. Baroque keyboard music on ET is
something I no longer care to listen to,
My personal opinion is that as far as consonance goes, there is none in
ET and too much in meantone. Only in a WT environment can I decide what
level
of contrast is appropriate, and actually place true consonance under the
hands
of a pianist. The effect can be dramatic, (or totally invisible, some people
don't hear a difference)!
Ed Foote RPT
http://www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/index.html
www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html
**************************************
See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.