PianoTech Archive

  • 1.  The basics of tuning

    Posted 05-27-2003 03:34
    From Nicholas Asplund <pianotech@gressus.se>
    
    Hello,
    
    I joined the list a few weeks ago. I'm not a professional tuner or 
    technician, but a hobby pianist with a desire to learn the basics of 
    tuning. I have a Steinway Hamburg O and I have also found a wonderful 
    tuner/technician in my area. However, since I have realised over the 
    years that the state of the instrument (tuning, intonation, action) 
    affects my playing deeply, I would like to learn more about these 
    matters. This way, I would also know more about what to ask for from 
    my technician.
    
    Here are my questions:
    
    1) Do you have any suggestions for books discussing piano tuning from 
    the bottom up? I'm sort of looking for a "tuning for dummies", as 
    well as a more advanced book discussing tuning, intonation and 
    mechanical action. Right now, I am able to count beat waves, tune 
    unisons and to correct individual tones in between regular tunings by 
    my technician, but I would like to know a lot more about tuning 
    technique and tuning schemes. (Don't worry - I would not expose my 
    Steinway to my far-from-perfect tuning skills, I have other 
    instruments available.)
    
    2) What digital devices are available for computer-assisted tuning? 
    (I read your discussion of the Verituner - it looks really 
    interesting.) Do you think that such a device would be useful when 
    learning tuning?
    
    3) A friend of mine suggested that with a digital tuning device it 
    would be possible to "save" the state of the piano (all the 
    frequencies, or string states) to the device and then restore it 
    almost exactly as it were months later. Is this really possible? I 
    guess there must be something more to it, otherwise there would  be a 
    lot more digital tuning devices around.
    
    Thanks in advance for your suggestions!
    
    Best greetings,
    
    Nicholas Asplund.
    nicholas@gressus.se
    -- 
    


  • 2.  The basics of tuning

    Posted 05-27-2003 04:42
    From "Simon Bedak" <SBB@masseybailey.com.au>
    
    Hello there Nicholas
    
     
    
    >I joined the list a few weeks ago. I'm not a professional tuner or 
    
    >technician, but a hobby pianist with a desire to learn the basics of 
    
    > tuning.
    
     
    
    I joined the list today myself and should really leave it to my betters
    to offer you their invaluable advice. 
    
     
    
    > Do you have any suggestions for books discussing piano tuning from 
    
    > the bottom up? I'm sort of looking for a "tuning for dummies", as 
    
    > well as a more advanced book discussing tuning, intonation and 
    
    > mechanical action.
    
     
    
    That said I'll jump in at the deep end....  I too am a hobbyist. My
    interest stems from fairly recently being given as a gift a lovely
    looking 1875 Ernst Kaps built grand piano from Dresden, Germany, which
    has been sitting in an old farm house ballroom in Australia for the last
    80 years. My local big city piano store, from whom I'd rented and bought
    pianos since I was 7 years old, suggested that tuning the Kaps would be
    "far too difficult for the lay person to contemplate and not even bother
    getting started." I took exception to that, raided the library in
    Canberra and discovered a wonderful 1906 publication written by an
    American who's name was J.Cree Fisher. I seem to recall that this has
    the imaginative title of "Piano Tuning" (followed by a sub-heading which
    I've forgotten), however, despite its age I found it easy enough to
    follow. Perhaps it's thorough, self-conscious, quasi-scientific manner
    leant it an old world charm that kept in harmony with the ugly beast
    providence had sought me out to tame. Another helpful tome was by
    another American named Arthur Reblitz entitled "Piano Servicing, Tuning
    & Rebuilding" issued by The Vestal Press, New York USA in c.1976. There
    are no doubt other views and more books than are available in Australian
    regional centres and this forum is the most likely place to learn what
    those books written since 1906 and 1976 respectively might be. 
    
     
    
    > What digital devices are available for computer-assisted tuning? 
    
    > (I read your discussion of the Verituner - it looks really 
    
    > interesting.) Do you think that such a device would be useful when 
    
    > learning tuning?
    
     
    
    I found those two books, together with the Korg OT12 to confirm pitch
    (and to set it just a notch higher than perfect) gave me the chance to
    transform what was an awful sounding, humourless machine into something
    which has a richness in its bass strings approximating the sounds
    encountered, to borrow from modern music, the 2nd to 3rd minute of "Sit
    down, stand up" on Radiohead's new album "Hail to the thief" (track
    two). [Not a bad album if you like that sorta thing like]. For those not
    in the know, this is an agreeable thing to the author's ear.  
    
     
    
    Yet machines such as the Verituner and the Korg OT12 to confirm pitch
    are probably useful to get you quickly from A to B, but it won't teach
    you to tune. Reckon one still needs to follow the path evenly to spread
    the tension as the plate-maker and scale-draughter intended over a few
    drunken nights when they created the piano you'll probably end up
    wrecking. And, although being a mere jack-of-all-trades I'm very easily
    satisfied with the confirmation of the results, the digitiser's not
    taught me any more than being able to accurately read a gauge and adjust
    tensions accordingly. All depends on what you what to know "how" to tune
    for. This is a matter entirely for you. 
    
    If you wish to tune your own instruments in a hurry, and, you're your
    only client, go for it. It's great fun. There's probably hundreds of
    machines and programs to investigate. Go and break some strings and
    enjoy. There's nothing more invigorating than seeing a healthy F-string
    from the fourth octave flying across two rooms unexpectedly into your
    wife's tulips as she's placing their vase on the table as lunch is about
    to be served. We got married a mere 173 days ago and the arc of that
    string as it left the hitch pin and headed north is the closest thing
    that's brought us even near an argument. 
    
     
    
    > A friend of mine suggested that with a digital tuning device it 
    
    > would be possible to "save" the state of the piano (all the 
    
    > frequencies, or string states) to the device and then restore it 
    
    > almost exactly as it were months later. Is this really possible? I 
    
    > guess there must be something more to it, otherwise there would  be a 
    
    > lot more digital tuning devices around.
    
     
    
    Hmmm... sounds very much out of my league but entirely possible. I'd
    love to know too. My garden variety tuner (photo attached on
    aforementioned c. 1875 Kaps - ser.#4496) just doesn't have that that
    capability. Wish it did. It'd be like a "before and after" photo.
    
     
    
     
    
     
    
    All the best of luck with it Nicholas. 
    
     
    
    Hope there's plenty of others on this list more sensible than I am to
    steer you in the right direction.
    
     
    
    Cheers 
    
     
    
    Simon Bedak
    
    Level 12
    
    20-26 O'Connell Street
    
    Sydney NSW Australia 
    
    Ph  : (02) 9221 9500
    
    Fax: (02) 9221 5277
    
    Mo : 0407 408 092
    
     
    
     
    
     
    


  • 3.  The basics of tuning

    Posted 05-27-2003 05:09
    From Phil Bondi <tito@philbondi.com>
    
    > 1) Do you have any suggestions for books discussing piano tuning from
    > the bottom up? I'm sort of looking for a "tuning for dummies", as
    > well as a more advanced book discussing tuning, intonation and
    > mechanical action.
    
    Hello. May I suggest Arthur Reblitz's Piano Servicing, Tuning, And
    Rebuilding?  It's a very thourough introduction to the ins and outs of the
    instrument. It's a 'desk reference' for some of us still.
    
    > 2) What digital devices are available for computer-assisted tuning?
    > (I read your discussion of the Verituner - it looks really
    > interesting.) Do you think that such a device would be useful when
    > learning tuning?
    
    Any visual aide will get you in the ballpark, and can remember the tuning
    for future reference. However, it is my opinion, especially you coming from
    a playing background, that you give serious consideration to learning to
    tune aurally. Not only will your tunings be more 'in tune', but it will also
    help greatly with voicing down the road.
    
    The machines are great. Most of us own one, or more..but the bottom line of
    what we do is "how does it sound"? Only your ears know that for sure.
    
    Stick around for awhile. Most of us don't bite!
    
    -Phil Bondi (Fl.)
    phil@philbondi.com
    


  • 4.  The basics of tuning

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-27-2003 07:56
    From Don <pianotuna@accesscomm.ca>
    
    Hi Nicolas and Simon,
    
    I would recommend you look seriously at the new breed of electronic tuning
    aides.
    
    If you go to this site you will find directions for one of the very best
    temperament "plans". Follow it and you will learn to tune quite nicely.
    
    http://www.accu-tuner.com/SATIIImanual/sat3manual.html
    
    If you do not wish to "put out the money" for a decent tuning device (korg
    is simply not accurate enough to do a wonderful job) then consider trying
    Tunelab Pro. It is shareware. Go here:
    
    http://www.tunelab-world.com/tlp.html
    
    At 11:34 AM 5/27/2003 +0200, you wrote:
    >Hello,
    >
    >I joined the list a few weeks ago. I'm not a professional tuner or 
    >technician, but a hobby pianist with a desire to learn the basics of 
    >tuning. 
    >
    
    Regards,
    Don Rose, B.Mus., A.M.U.S., A.MUS., R.P.T.
    
    mailto:pianotuna@accesscomm.ca
    http://us.geocities.com/drpt1948/
    
    3004 Grant Rd.
    REGINA, SK
    S4S 5G7
    306-352-3620 or 1-888-29t-uner
    


  • 5.  The basics of tuning

    Posted 05-27-2003 08:05
    From Piannaman@aol.com
    
    Here are my questions:
    
    1) Do you have any suggestions for books discussing piano tuning from 
    the bottom up? I'm sort of looking for a "tuning for dummies", as 
    well as a more advanced book discussing tuning, intonation and 
    mechanical action. Right now, I am able to count beat waves, tune 
    unisons and to correct individual tones in between regular tunings by 
    my technician, but I would like to know a lot more about tuning 
    technique and tuning schemes. (Don't worry - I would not expose my 
    Steinway to my far-from-perfect tuning skills, I have other 
    instruments available.)
    
    
    I would suggest Reblitz's book(see Phil Bondi's e-mail).  It touches on many 
    phases of piano technology.  If you want to get in a little deeper, the Randy 
    Potter School of Piano Technology has a fairly comprehensive course with lots 
    of step-by-step instruction.  It isn't cheap, so it may not be ideal for a 
    hobbyist.
    
    > 
    > 2) What digital devices are available for computer-assisted tuning? 
    > (I read your discussion of the Verituner - it looks really 
    > interesting.) Do you think that such a device would be useful when 
    > learning tuning?
    
    
    I like Tunelab Pocket quite a bit.  It is a program that is installed into a 
    Pocket PC.  It contains many interesting features, including the ability to 
    customize a tuning to a particular piano.  I don't use it all the time except to 
    get my initial A440.  I am first and foremost an aural tuner, but if I have 
    to tune a funky old spinet in a hurry, it really helps hasten the process.  
    
    If you are a musician and are able to hear beats clearly, I think you should 
    work on your aural skills.  Having an electronic aid can help you learn to 
    tune better by ear.  The bottom line:  if it doesn't sound good, it doesn't 
    matter what the screen says,  The ear is the final judge.  
    
    It's an interesting avocation, and one where you never stop learning.  
    
    Dave Stahl
    
    > 
    > 
    > 
    > Best greetings,
    > 
    > Nicholas Asplund.
    


  • 6.  The basics of tuning

    Posted 05-27-2003 08:29
      |   view attached
    From <tune4u@earthlink.net>
    
    Bedak_snap(61).jpg
    
     
    
    This picture prompts a comment: If it's made by Korg and/or has a swinging
    needle or a little arc of LED's and/or costs less than several hundreds of
    dollars, it is not for the piano. The piano must be tuned to relative pitch
    intervals based on upper partials (harmonics) of the strings, not just
    fundamental pitches. If A (49th key from the bottom) is accurately set at
    440 Hrz, then middle C is not exactly the same "C" that the guitar-type
    tuner calls "middle C" Even setting that first A440 can actually be done by
    ear (beat matching, NOT pitch matching) more accurately than by matching a
    swinging needle. You can invest in a Verituner, Accu-Tuner, or a computer
    with TuneLab or Cybertuner Software, etc., and-yes-they will compute and
    store a good tuning for your instrument. But that's a lot of bucks for
    something that is not a money-making business investment!
    
     
    
    All you really need, besides instruction and much practice, is one tuning
    fork (A440 unless you are reading an old book calling for a C fork), your
    wedge mutes, your tuning hammer (should be called a wrench but isn't, just
    to confuse the public), and maybe your felt strip (optional, helpful in
    learning). I'd put the tuner back in the guitar case. By the way, your
    hammer will not be as easy to use as one that is less flexible (more
    expensive).  By the way, it looks like your piano needs some dental
    work--ask your tuner about some replacement ivories or a whole new set of
    shiny keytops. BTW, sunlight bleaches ivory; it gets yellow in the dark. So
    leave your fallboard open for a few decades to get that like-new look back.
    Just kidding. They can be bleached with Peroxide-not the kind in your
    bathroom, the kind that hairdressers use (careful, it's dangerous).
    
     
    
    Have fun. 
    
     
    
    Alan Barnard
    
    Salem, MO
    


  • 7.  The basics of tuning

    Posted 05-27-2003 17:03
    From Avery Todd <avery@ev1.net>
    
    Hi Phil,
    
    Well, I'm glad you said "most" us! :-) Lord knows, I've been bitten
    a few times!
    
    Avery
    
    >Stick around for awhile. Most of us don't bite!
    >
    >-Phil Bondi (Fl.)
    >phil@philbondi.com