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Action Rail Hole Spacing

  • 1.  Action Rail Hole Spacing

    Posted 04-19-2004 06:44 
    From "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>

Anyone have any great ideas for how to accurately space screw holes in an action rail? I need to make a new let-off rail for an old M&H upright and the only way I can figure to do it is to use the old one as a guide and mark the new wooden rail. Is there a better way to space?

Terry Farrell


  • 2.  Action Rail Hole Spacing

    Posted 04-19-2004 09:23 
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>

>Anyone have any great ideas for how to accurately space screw holes in an 
>action rail? I need to make a new let-off rail for an old M&H upright and 
>the only way I can figure to do it is to use the old one as a guide and 
>mark the new wooden rail. Is there a better way to space?
>
>Terry Farrell

Why a new rail? Screws rusty and won't turn? If the spacing on the original 
is acceptable, I'd drive the old screws out (screws willing), tape the old 
rail on top of the new, and use the old as a drill guide in the drill 
press. Or mark the new rail from the old, or from the wippen screw centers 
(eyeball), and drill from that. Precision isn't awfully critical here, but 
even spacing looks better.

Ron N


  • 3.  Action Rail Hole Spacing

    Posted 04-19-2004 09:53 
    From John Ross <jrpiano@win.eastlink.ca>

Hi Terry,
I can't think of any reason, not to use the old one as a guide.
Well one reason, might be, if the old one was noticeably uneven.
Regards,
John M. Ross
Windsor, Nova Scotia, Canada
jrpiano@win.eastlink.ca
  
    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
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  • 4.  Action Rail Hole Spacing

    Posted 04-19-2004 10:54 
    From Jon Page <jonpage@comcast.net>

Use a drafting divider to index on a center line.

Measure overall action length and each section's width by measuring from 
the left edge of the first
wippen to the left edge of the last wippen. Between sections, measure 
between the last and the first.

Map it out in pencil, correct if needed.  If you have the original rail, 
and the screws won't come out;
clamp the new rail alongside and with a small square index the new holes 
off the side of the old screws.

ot really too complicated.

Regards,

Jon Page, piano technician
Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Mass.
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


  • 5.  Action Rail Hole Spacing

    Posted 04-19-2004 10:57 
    From "Delwin D Fandrich" <fandrich@pianobuilders.com>

Let-off rails are usually square or rectangular. Tape the old one over the
new one and drill through if you can.

If the original screws are frozen and can't be moved -- you have tried
heat? -- then clip them off with side cutters just above the surface and
make a paper or Mylar pattern by rubbing. Clean up the side-to-side spacing
as necessary.

Del
  
    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
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  • 6.  Action Rail Hole Spacing

    Posted 04-19-2004 11:47 
    From Richard Brekne <Richard.Brekne@grieg.uib.no>

Farrell wrote:

> Anyone have any great ideas for how to accurately space screw holes in 
> an action rail? I need to make a new let-off rail for an old M&H 
> upright and the only way I can figure to do it is to use the old one 
> as a guide and mark the new wooden rail. Is there a better way to space?
>  
> Terry Farrell 

It would strike me as a good idea to use the old rail as a guide, unless 
you know it was full of problems.  Otherwise its jig making time. 
Shouldnt be too hard to contrive some kind of a hole spacing jig.  
Perhaps a retractable dowel swing mounted so that for each new hole to 
be drilled the rail is held in place by the dowel inserted into the 
previoiusly drilled hole ??

You're pretty clever at this kind of thing Terry, so I just know you are 
able to come up with something better !  I have faith in you... grin.

Cheers
RicB


  • 7.  Action Rail Hole Spacing

    Posted 04-19-2004 22:22 
    From "Sarah Fox" <sarah@gendernet.org>

Hi Ric, Terry,

> It would strike me as a good idea to use the old rail as a guide, unless
> you know it was full of problems.  Otherwise its jig making time.
> Shouldnt be too hard to contrive some kind of a hole spacing jig.
> Perhaps a retractable dowel swing mounted so that for each new hole to
> be drilled the rail is held in place by the dowel inserted into the
> previoiusly drilled hole ??

The problem with such a jig would be cumulative error.  If you're off by 0.2
mm per hole, you'll be off by 4 mm by the time you've done a series of 20
holes.

A better way that would create no cumulative error would be to use a long
threaded rod, preferably with an even number of threads per distance between
rail holes.  For instance, if your holes needed to be 1/2" apart, that would
be 10 turns (i.e. 10 threads) of a 1/4-20 threaded rod.  Mount a couple of
nuts perhaps 6" apart at the end of a track (which you clamp to the platform
of a drill press), and use the threaded rod as a stop for the rail (which
slides along the track).  Advance the rod x number of turns, drill, advance
x more turns, drill, etc.  If you aren't lucky enough to find a rod with an
even number of threads per hole, just do a quickie spreadsheet to calculate
the number of turns required for each hole in the entire series.  To count
turns, you will of course need to fashion a crank handle for the end of the
threaded rod, and the drill bit should be shortened as much as possible to
minimize runout.

If you want to get fancy, use a third, unmounted nut, with a spring between
it and one of the mounted nuts (pushing the threaded rod away from the rail,
not towards it).  You'll need something to keep the nut from turning.
Perhaps you could mount it in a free-floating block of wood?  The spring
will preload the mechanism and minimize backlash.  Alternatively, you can
have an adjustment mechanism that moves the two main nuts together or apart.
It should be adjusted tightly enough to remove play, but loosely enough not
to bind.

Don't forget to grind the end of the threaded rod smooth.  ;-)

Peace,
Sarah


Peace,
Sarah


  • 8.  Action Rail Hole Spacing

    Posted 04-19-2004 16:27 
    From "Delwin D Fandrich" <fandrich@pianobuilders.com>

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  • 9.  Action Rail Hole Spacing

    Posted 04-19-2004 19:28 
    From Jon Page <jonpage@comcast.net>

> Use a drafting divider to index on a center line.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





    * If you're implying that the spacing can be taken by measuring the 
centerline


    * width of the section and dividing by the number of unisons (minus one),


    * don't. Most, if not all, traditional upright pianos use greatly 
progressive


    * action center spreads. That is, the action center spacing at the bass 
end of


    * the section will be some wider than the action center spacing at the 
treble


    * end of the section. This is especially so through the bass and tenor


    * sections.



    * Del

If that be the case, then index the holes for the letoff rail by copying 
the spacing of the wippens.
Much the same duplication procedure described in the Renner USA Damper 
Underlever Kit instructions.

If you are unfamiliar with this then cut a strip of Mylar or paper and 
secure to the wippens near
the flanges. Draw a mark on the paper (pin-prick the Mylar) at the left or 
right edges of each wippen.
This will best represent the hole pattern.

You might want to consider waiting until the buttons are installed and 
aligned to the jacks before
drilling for the bracket screws into the rail.

Regards,

Jon Page, piano technician
Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Mass.
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


  • 10.  Action Rail Hole Spacing

    Posted 04-19-2004 21:42 
    From Erwinspiano@aol.com

In a message dated 4/19/2004 10:47:58 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
Richard.Brekne@grieg.uib.no writes:
Farrell wrote:

> Anyone have any great ideas for how to accurately space screw holes in 
> an action rail? I need to make a new let-off rail for an old M&H 
> upright and the only way I can figure to do it is to use the old one 
> as a guide and mark the new wooden rail. Is there a better way to space?
>  
> Terry Farrell
          Terry
   Does there need to be?
    Dale Erwin


  • 11.  Action Rail Hole Spacing

    Posted 04-21-2004 00:39 
    From "Dave Nereson" <davner@kaosol.net>


    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
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  • 12.  Action Rail Hole Spacing

    Posted 04-21-2004 04:21 
    From "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>

Well, I'm sure there is nothing so terribly wrong with using the old one.
Left unguided, that is indeed how I was doing it.

With such a method however, some accuracy is lost with each replacement
(heaven forbid, what will this rail look like 800 years from now?). I was
also asking the question from a broader perspective as I have run across
rails that were not set up well originally. This also may come up when
converting a rail from brass rails to wooden flanges, or building a rail
from scratch.

I'm sure there is some efficient techniques for drilling a series of holes
at either equal spacing or a steadily variable spacing that helps to
increase accuracy. I think Sarah Fox came up with the best approach for a
general hole spacing when an adequate original is not available - the
treaded rod (thanks Sarah - although in this case I think I will use the
original as a guide - but when I make that new piano from scratch......)

I guess I was targeting the question to go beyond the immediate action rail.

Terry Farrell

> > Anyone have any great ideas for how to accurately space screw holes in
an
> action rail? I need to make a new let-off rail for an old M&H upright and
> the only way I can figure to do it is to use the old one as a guide and
mark
> the new wooden rail. Is there a better way to space?
> >
> > Terry Farrell
>
>     Whassamatta with using the old one?  Just put 'em side by side and use
a
> little machinist's or hobbyist's square, or make a little jig and just go
> down the line and mark 'em all.  By the time you could make a scale stick
or
> come up with some formula, you'd be done.

> --David Nereson, RPT


  • 13.  Action Rail Hole Spacing

    Posted 04-21-2004 07:20 
    From gordon stelter <lclgcnp@yahoo.com>

Excuse me, please, but it seems that we'ere getting a
little fanatical here. What is wrong with making a
scale stick out of some stable stuff, like plexiglas,
marking the hole positions by placing it against the
current flange screw holes for the wippen, then
marking across your new wood with a  little
tri-square. Then just clamp a block across your drill
press table so that the drilled holes line up with the
centerline of your new wood and drill away?
What would be wrong with that?
     Thump


--- Farrell <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> Well, I'm sure there is nothing so terribly wrong
> with using the old one.
> Left unguided, that is indeed how I was doing it.
> 
> With such a method however, some accuracy is lost
> with each replacement
> (heaven forbid, what will this rail look like 800
> years from now?). I was
> also asking the question from a broader perspective
> as I have run across
> rails that were not set up well originally. This
> also may come up when
> converting a rail from brass rails to wooden
> flanges, or building a rail
> from scratch.
> 
> I'm sure there is some efficient techniques for
> drilling a series of holes
> at either equal spacing or a steadily variable
> spacing that helps to
> increase accuracy. I think Sarah Fox came up with
> the best approach for a
> general hole spacing when an adequate original is
> not available - the
> treaded rod (thanks Sarah - although in this case I
> think I will use the
> original as a guide - but when I make that new piano
> from scratch......)
> 
> I guess I was targeting the question to go beyond
> the immediate action rail.
> 
> Terry Farrell
> 
> > > Anyone have any great ideas for how to
> accurately space screw holes in
> an
> > action rail? I need to make a new let-off rail for
> an old M&H upright and
> > the only way I can figure to do it is to use the
> old one as a guide and
> mark
> > the new wooden rail. Is there a better way to
> space?
> > >
> > > Terry Farrell
> >
> >     Whassamatta with using the old one?  Just put
> 'em side by side and use
> a
> > little machinist's or hobbyist's square, or make a
> little jig and just go
> > down the line and mark 'em all.  By the time you
> could make a scale stick
> or
> > come up with some formula, you'd be done.
> 
> > --David Nereson, RPT
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> pianotech list info:
http://www.ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/pianotech



	
		
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  • 14.  Action Rail Hole Spacing

    Posted 04-21-2004 21:31 
    From "Sarah Fox" <sarah@gendernet.org>

Hi Thump,

> Excuse me, please, but it seems that we'ere getting a
> little fanatical here. What is wrong with making a
> scale stick out of some stable stuff, like plexiglas,
> marking the hole positions by placing it against the
> current flange screw holes for the wippen, then
> marking across your new wood with a  little
> tri-square. Then just clamp a block across your drill
> press table so that the drilled holes line up with the
> centerline of your new wood and drill away?
> What would be wrong with that?

Not that I posed the original question, but...

Nothing would be wrong with that.  I suppose it's more a matter of the
precision with which one is to do the work and/or the speed of higher
precision production.  If you want to turn out beautiful action work, you
should maximize use of jigs and minimize the use of measuring sticks and
pencil marks, IMO.  Although I'm not a professional piano tech, I've done a
fair amount of machine work, and in my experience, the human eyeball and the
human hand just don't cut it.  But then again, I'm used to measuring
distances in microns (1/1000 mm), so I might be the wrong person to comment
on this.  ;-)  Still, it seems whenever I resort to pencil marks, my eye
tells me the end product could have been done more accurately.

Peace,
Sarah


  • 15.  Action Rail Hole Spacing

    Posted 04-21-2004 18:35 
    From Erwinspiano@aol.com

In a message dated 4/21/2004 6:20:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
lclgcnp@yahoo.com writes:
Excuse me, please, but it seems that we'ere getting a
little fanatical here. What is wrong with making a
scale stick out of some stable stuff, like plexiglas,
marking the hole positions by placing it against the
current flange screw holes for the wippen, then
marking across your new wood with a  little
tri-square. Then just clamp a block across your drill
press table so that the drilled holes line up with the
centerline of your new wood and drill away?
What would be wrong with that?
     Thump
     Exactly....Nothing. This work doesn't require microscpoes...yet
      Dale


Erwins Pianos Restorations 
4721 Parker Rd.
Modesto, Ca 95357
209-577-8397
Rebuilt Steinway , Mason &Hamlin Sales
www.Erwinspiano.com


  • 16.  Action Rail Hole Spacing

    Posted 04-21-2004 23:02 
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>

>Anyone have any great ideas for how to accurately space screw holes in an 
>action rail? I need to make a new let-off rail for an old M&H upright and 
>the only way I can figure to do it is to use the old one as a guide and 
>mark the new wooden rail. Is there a better way to space?
>
>Terry Farrell

Yes. It's not my idea, but I happen to think it's pretty great. You start 
with two parallel lines with a line drawn perpendicular to, and 
intersecting both. Then, a similar series of lines is drawn in a fan, 
indexed from the original perpendicular, with one set of line ends at a 
chosen regular spacing, and the other ends at another chosen regular 
spacing bigger or smaller than the first. That's your template. If your 
proposed scale spacing progression is regular, rather than progressive, you 
keep the scale stick parallel to the original parallel lines, and line it 
up where the number of points needed coincides with the number of lines in 
the fan, at the overall length needed, and mark the intersections of the 
fanned lines with the stick on the stick. If you want a progressive 
spacing, you do the same, only you slant the stick off parallel with the 
original parallel lines, The more the slant, the greater the progression 
rate. If you have a measurement between two end points, the number of 
centers required, and a measurement from one end point to any point between 
the two ends (the closer to the center the better), you can reproduce any 
regular progressive scale spacing.

Ron N


  • 17.  Action Rail Hole Spacing

    Posted 04-22-2004 15:23
      |   view attached 
    From "Delwin D Fandrich" <fandrich@pianobuilders.com>

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  • 18.  Action Rail Hole Spacing

    Posted 04-22-2004 15:46 
    From "Dean May" <deanmay@pianorebuilders.com>

I recently had to lay out something, don't remember now what it was, where I
had to have x number of holes within so many inches. By doing the math the
spacing came out at something like 25/64ths of an inch. I used a spreadsheet
to determine the decimal coordinate of each spot, then converted the decimal
to 32nds of an inch in the neighbor cell, which is about the smallest I can
approximate with a pencil on a rule. With my spreadsheet giving me the
distance from zero for each hole I just made a pencil mark on my rule. No
cumulative error this way, and the precision for each individual location
was probably +/- .030.

Dean

Dean May             cell 812.239.3359
PianoRebuilders.com   812.235.5272
Terre Haute IN  47802


  • 19.  Action Rail Hole Spacing

    Posted 04-22-2004 15:59 
    From "Delwin D Fandrich" <fandrich@pianobuilders.com>

Sarah, et al.,

I should have added that this is how it would have been done if the piano had
actually been designed in-house. Only a very few were. As is still common today
most "new" designs were actually just loose copies of older existing designs,
modified just enough to disguise their origins and, perhaps, to add a favored
"feature" or two.

Del

Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Designer & Builder
512 Hanna Avenue
Aberdeen, Washington 98520
USA
Phone  360.532-2563
Fax  360.537-1262
<mailto:fandrich@pianobuilders.com>
<http://www.pianobuilders.com>


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