PianoTech Archive

From "David Boyce" <David@piano.plus.com>

Yesterday evening I fitted two of JD's lovely bass strings to a customer's 
piano.  Handily, they live five minutes' walk away in the next street and 
are the sort of customer who presses a glass of red wine in your hand as 
soon as you arrive - would that more were like that!

The two broken bass strings had broken in playing, not in tuning, at the 
V-bar, which was a little rusty.

I applied a tiny amount of WD40 to each bass string at its bearing point 
over the V-bar. To do this I used a watch oiler, which is just a very tiny 
spatula.  My hope was to prevent any further rust at the bearing points, and 
possibly break and prevent rust bonds.  Do you think WD40 was OK to use for 
that?

When I had fitted the strings and the son of the family, whose piano it is 
and who was home from Uni, sat down to play with the front still off, he 
noticed that the windings on the old strings were the other way from on the 
new ones. I thought it was just an optical illusion of the bright copper, 
but on close looking, sure enough, the old strings are wound 
anti-cloackwise.  A thing to watch, if they had to be unhitched and 
re-hitched for any reason - very easy to put the turn on the wrong way!  But 
I wonder how many customers would have spotted a thing like that!

In the pics you can see the WD40 dark smudges on the V-bar at each string 
(incidentally, the pic makes it look as if the coils are not tight against 
the becket, but they are).

Best regards,

David.

From "tom" <tomtuner@verizon.net>

Subject: Lubricating V-bar

 

<Snip>

 

I applied a tiny amount of WD40 to each bass string at its bearing point 

over the V-bar. To do this I used a watch oiler, which is just a very tiny 

spatula.  My hope was to prevent any further rust at the bearing points, and


possibly break and prevent rust bonds.  Do you think WD40 was OK to use for 

that?

 

      Lose the WD 40 and go to protek (IMO).Just don't let any lube of any
kind migrate to the windings.

     Actually I would clean off the plate contact point with a brass brush
and forget the lube .By the time rust becomes a factor on a new string I'll
be dead anyway.

  I regularly use protek on the plain wire plate bearing points especially
during pitch raises but you can kill a wound string with any contamination.

Best wishes,

      Tom Driscoll

From "paul bruesch" <paul@bruesch.net>

The other day, after having a wound bi-chord string break during a 25c pitch
raise, I touched the V-bar with some Protek for other strings that looked a
little rusty.  I did my best to prevent creep into the windings, but hey,
who knows what might happen, microscopically and/or over time.

I'm thinking maybe it's a good idea to carry a brass brush (another
~50grams!?!?) with me for these pianos. Would it be ideal or necessary to
lower tension on the string before brushing the V-bar?  If so, should they
be so loose as to move freely side-to-side? (I'm thinking primarily bass
strings.) Loosen a half-dozen at a time, brush, PR, lather, rinse, repeat??
Brush parallel to the strings, or parallel to the V-bar? Take precautions to
keep rusty dust from contaminating the windings??

Thanks,
Paul Bruesch
Stillwater, MN

On Feb 17, 2008 8:29 AM, tom <tomtuner@verizon.net> wrote:

>        Lose the WD 40 and go to protek (IMO).Just don't let any lube of
> any kind migrate to the windings.
>
>      Actually I would clean off the plate contact point with a brass brush
> and forget the lube .By the time rust becomes a factor on a new string I'll
> be dead anyway.
>
>   I regularly use protek on the plain wire plate bearing points especially
> during pitch raises but you can kill a wound string with any contamination.
>
> Best wishes,
>
>       Tom Driscoll
>

From John Ross <jrpiano@win.eastlink.ca>

I think it was Roger Jolly, that suggested to me, that rubbing the ridge on the plate of a grand that the strings pass over, with paraffin wax worked to lubricate.
Now where did I put that book of Merle Mason's, (is that his name) that tells me what the parts of the piano are called?
So that should work on the V-bar of an upright too.
  

                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                 Original Message ----- 
  From: paul bruesch 
  To: Pianotech List 
  Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 1:49 PM
  Subject: Re: Lubricating V-bar


  The other day, after having a wound bi-chord string break during a 25c pitch raise, I touched the V-bar with some Protek for other strings that looked a little rusty.  I did my best to prevent creep into the windings, but hey, who knows what might happen, microscopically and/or over time.  

  I'm thinking maybe it's a good idea to carry a brass brush (another ~50grams!?!?) with me for these pianos. Would it be ideal or necessary to lower tension on the string before brushing the V-bar?  If so, should they be so loose as to move freely side-to-side? (I'm thinking primarily bass strings.) Loosen a half-dozen at a time, brush, PR, lather, rinse, repeat?? Brush parallel to the strings, or parallel to the V-bar? Take precautions to keep rusty dust from contaminating the windings??

  Thanks,
  Paul Bruesch
  Stillwater, MN


  On Feb 17, 2008 8:29 AM, tom <tomtuner@verizon.net> wrote:

          Lose the WD 40 and go to protek (IMO).Just don't let any lube of any kind migrate to the windings.

         Actually I would clean off the plate contact point with a brass brush and forget the lube .By the time rust becomes a factor on a new string I'll be dead anyway.

      I regularly use protek on the plain wire plate bearing points especially during pitch raises but you can kill a wound string with any contamination.

    Best wishes,

          Tom Driscoll

From Scott Jackson <scottwaynejackson@hotmail.com>

Paul, don't do it mate.
Unwinding strings that much will just about guarantee at least one WILL break at the tuning pin. Not to mention the amount of time that it will take - you may as well restring it by the time you do all that! If you're worried, just a drop of CLP or Pro-Lube and get on with it. If they're gonna go, they're gonna go..........

Scott Jackson

Would it be ideal or necessary to lower tension on the string before brushing the V-bar?  If so, should they be so loose as to move freely side-to-side? (I'm thinking primarily bass strings.) Loosen a half-dozen at a time, brush, PR, lather, rinse, repeat?? Brush parallel to the strings, or parallel to the V-bar? Take precautions to keep rusty dust from contaminating the windings??


Thanks,
Paul Bruesch
Stillwater, MN


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From "Don Mannino" <donmannino@ca.rr.com>

David,

I would not use WD-40 there.  It creeps, and even with very light
application there is a good chance it will settled down into the windings
and make dead strings.  It might take a few years.

No lubrication is needed.

Don Mannino 

From "Greg Newell" <gnewell@ameritech.net>

David,
I have no real problem with WD-40 in small amounts but my choice of poison
is 3 in 1 oil. It does make strings render quite a bit better and remove a
great deal of frustration in tuning older pianos. I've never run into a
problem with its usage.

Greg Newell
Greg's Piano Fort?
www.gregspianoforte.com
216-226-3791 (office)
216-470-8634 (mobile)



                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                Original Message-----
From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
Of David Boyce
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 9:07 AM
To: Pianotech List
Subject: Lubricating V-bar

Yesterday evening I fitted two of JD's lovely bass strings to a customer's
piano.  Handily, they live five minutes' walk away in the next street and
are the sort of customer who presses a glass of red wine in your hand as
soon as you arrive - would that more were like that!

The two broken bass strings had broken in playing, not in tuning, at the
V-bar, which was a little rusty.

I applied a tiny amount of WD40 to each bass string at its bearing point
over the V-bar. To do this I used a watch oiler, which is just a very tiny
spatula.  My hope was to prevent any further rust at the bearing points, and
possibly break and prevent rust bonds.  Do you think WD40 was OK to use for
that?

When I had fitted the strings and the son of the family, whose piano it is
and who was home from Uni, sat down to play with the front still off, he
noticed that the windings on the old strings were the other way from on the
new ones. I thought it was just an optical illusion of the bright copper,
but on close looking, sure enough, the old strings are wound
anti-cloackwise.  A thing to watch, if they had to be unhitched and
re-hitched for any reason - very easy to put the turn on the wrong way!  But
I wonder how many customers would have spotted a thing like that!

In the pics you can see the WD40 dark smudges on the V-bar at each string
(incidentally, the pic makes it look as if the coils are not tight against
the becket, but they are).

Best regards,

David.

From Jon Page <jonpage@comcast.net>

>  Would it be ideal or necessary to lower tension on the string 
>before brushing the V-bar

It would have to be pretty corroded to need that kind of attention. 
Simply treat all
bearing surfaces with Goose Juice or Protek. Lower the tension on each string
until you hear the release (a few cents lower) and pull to pitch.

What usually causes strings to break is trying to pull the wire to pitch and
the friction at the v-bar or agraffe restricts rendering and the string segment
at the tuning pin becomes too high...POW.  Lowering the tension breaks that
tension and allows the string to pull right through. If there is 
ratchetting and
jumping while trying to nail pitch, sometime another application of CLP works;
most times the only remedy is string replacement.
-- 

Regards,

Jon Page

From "David Boyce" <David@piano.plus.com>

"David,
You misunderstood my comment.
Brush the schmutz off the v-bar-pin where the new string will occupy. NOT
the entire set.
Best wishes,
Tom Driscoll"

Ahh, sorry Tom!  I did in fact clean off the two bits with a rough cloth 
before fitting the two new strings.  But my concern was less for the new 
string then for the old ones, and the idea of the WD40 "spot lubrication" 
applied to all the bass strings at the V-bar was to try and help prevent any 
more of the old ones breaking.

Best,

David.

From Ted Simmons <tsimmons4@cfl.rr.com>

I started tuning in 1972, part time while working another job full  
time.  I did about 10 tunings per week because I was the tuner for 2  
piano stores.  Anyhow, an elderly tuner died and I and other tuners  
were getting calls from his customers.  On every visit I found the  
piano in deplorable condition in that all of the tuning pins were  
loose and the bass strings were thunky.  I?m talking about Steinway  
and Chickering grands, as well as all other kinds of uprights and  
grands.  I had no idea why this was happening until one day I went to  
tune a piano at a retirement club.  When I  found the same problem I  
mentioned this situation to the club president and he said that he  
was present when the elderly tuner started tuning the piano.  Much to  
his chagrin he noticed that the tuner was spraying WD-40 over the V- 
bars and bass string stagger pins.  He tried to stop him but it was  
too late.  What I found was that the piano (an upright) had loose  
tuning pins and thunky bass strings.  When I pulled up on one tuning  
pin and released the tuning hammer the hammer moved back, having no  
friction at all.  My lesson from this is to stay away from using
WD-40 on pianos.  From past messages on this listserver I found that  
others have had the same experience.  I don?t even keep WD-40 in my  
car anymore.

On Feb 17, 2008, at 3:14 PM, David Boyce wrote:

> "David,
> You misunderstood my comment.
> Brush the schmutz off the v-bar-pin where the new string will  
> occupy. NOT
> the entire set.
> Best wishes,
> Tom Driscoll"
>
> Ahh, sorry Tom!  I did in fact clean off the two bits with a rough  
> cloth before fitting the two new strings.  But my concern was less  
> for the new string then for the old ones, and the idea of the WD40  
> "spot lubrication" applied to all the bass strings at the V-bar was  
> to try and help prevent any more of the old ones breaking.
>
> Best,
>
> David.
>
>
>

From "Greg Newell" <gnewell@ameritech.net>

Ted & List,

                This is quite a stretch. You cite an example of horribly
improper use of any chemical and then condemn the use of one specific
chemical. This makes no sense to me. In your story you state that the WD-40
was sprayed. Well, no control of application there, right? Second you state
that the elderly toner put the lubricant on the bridge itself. I should
think even the most common of sense should tell anyone that a liquid does
not belong there much less a lubricant. Of course you would find loose
tuning pins and problematic bridges. I should think you would with most
chemicals that were haphazardly sprayed on and on improper surfaces to boot.
Seems to me it was not the problem of a bad chemical but rather an
uninformed choice of how and where to use it.

 

Greg Newell

Greg's Piano Fort?

www.gregspianoforte.com

216-226-3791 (office)

216-470-8634 (mobile)

 

From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
Of Ted Simmons
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 4:37 PM
To: Pianotech List
Subject: Re: Lubricating V-bar

 

I started tuning in 1972, part time while working another job full time.  I
did about 10 tunings per week because I was the tuner for 2 piano stores.
Anyhow, an elderly tuner died and I and other tuners were getting calls from
his customers.  On every visit I found the piano in deplorable condition in
that all of the tuning pins were loose and the bass strings were thunky.
I?m talking about Steinway and Chickering grands, as well as all other kinds
of uprights and grands.  I had no idea why this was happening until one day
I went to tune a piano at a retirement club.  When I  found the same problem
I mentioned this situation to the club president and he said that he was
present when the elderly tuner started tuning the piano.  Much to his
chagrin he noticed that the tuner was spraying WD-40 over the V-bars and
bass string stagger pins.  He tried to stop him but it was too late.  What I
found was that the piano (an upright) had loose tuning pins and thunky bass
strings.  When I pulled up on one tuning pin and released the tuning hammer
the hammer moved back, having no friction at all.  My lesson from this is to
stay away from using 

WD-40 on pianos.  From past messages on this listserver I found that others
have had the same experience.  I don?t even keep WD-40 in my car anymore.

 

On Feb 17, 2008, at 3:14 PM, David Boyce wrote:





"David,

You misunderstood my comment.

Brush the schmutz off the v-bar-pin where the new string will occupy. NOT

the entire set.

Best wishes,

Tom Driscoll"

 

Ahh, sorry Tom!  I did in fact clean off the two bits with a rough cloth
before fitting the two new strings.  But my concern was less for the new
string then for the old ones, and the idea of the WD40 "spot lubrication"
applied to all the bass strings at the V-bar was to try and help prevent any
more of the old ones breaking.

 

Best,

 

David.

 

 

 

 

From david@piano.plus.com

"Much to his chagrin he noticed that the tuner was spraying WD-40 over the
V-bars and bass string stagger pin........From past messages on this
listserver I found that others have had the same experience.  I don?t even
keep WD-40 in my car anymore".

Isn't it  awful how little technical "savvy" some supposedly technical
people seem to have.  I mean had this tuner simply NO idea of the
properties of materials?  I wonder what his work would be like if he had
to replace a string - or maybe such things would be beyond him!

The idea of SPRAYING WD40 anywhere near strings fills me with horror.  For
what I did two days ago, I sprayed a tiny amount (via the thin tube) into
the cap of the WD40 can, and used my watch oiler to apply one tiny spot to
each string at its bearing.  If you've never used a watch oiler (watch
repair used to be a hobby of mine) you maybe don't realise what a minute
amout of liquid it holds.  There are simply not enough total molecules
present to really creep anywhere, and capillary action is likely to keep
what minuscule amount there is, between string and V-bar.

I do think that not having WD40 in the car at all is a bit extreme! 
Sometimes one might come across a tatty old upright with a creaky/squeaky
rusty pedal, and a pedal mechanism of very difficult access.  The proper
procedure would be dismantling, cleaning, apropriately lubricating and
re-assembling. But the cost of doing that might exceed the value of the
piano.  In that circumstance a very tiny spray of WD40 through the thin
flexible tube, strategically aimed, can offer an effective and economical
solution.

The fact that an idiot egregiously misused the stuff  doesn't mean that it
can't have a valid sensible use.  That would be like saying because
someone once ruined his car engine by pouring oil all over it, you won't
have oil anywhere near the engine......

Your experience does though open up the question of just how bad some
tuner/technicians might be...... but that's another topic!

Scott, you say, regarding lowering  string tension to cleanand/or
lubricate the V-bar,
"Paul, don't do it mate.
Unwinding strings that much will just about guarantee at least one WILL
break at the tuning pin. Not to mention the amount of time that it will
take - you may as well restring it by the time you do all that! If you're
worried, just a drop of CLP or Pro-Lube and get on with it. If they're
gonna go, they're gonna go.........."

Yes, that was my feeling.  The use of the tiny spot of WD40 for each
string was my "minimal interventionist" approach - I figured that even if
it didn't do anything to help stop strings breaking, it wouldn't do any
harm - and it MIGHT help to stop breakages in further playing/tuning (the
two strings broke in playing).

Best regards,

David

From "David Ilvedson" <ilvey@sbcglobal.net>

WD stands for water displacement...it is a degreaser for rust prevention.   It's not a lubricant... 

David Ilvedson, RPT
Pacifica, CA  94044



                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                 Original message ----------------------------------------
From: david@piano.plus.com
To: pianotech@ptg.org
Received: 2/18/2008 1:53:25 AM
Subject: Re: Lubricating V-bar



>"Much to his chagrin he noticed that the tuner was spraying WD-40 over the
>V-bars and bass string stagger pin........From past messages on this
>listserver I found that others have had the same experience.  I don?t even
>keep WD-40 in my car anymore".

>Isn't it  awful how little technical "savvy" some supposedly technical
>people seem to have.  I mean had this tuner simply NO idea of the
>properties of materials?  I wonder what his work would be like if he had
>to replace a string - or maybe such things would be beyond him!

>The idea of SPRAYING WD40 anywhere near strings fills me with horror.  For
>what I did two days ago, I sprayed a tiny amount (via the thin tube) into
>the cap of the WD40 can, and used my watch oiler to apply one tiny spot to
>each string at its bearing.  If you've never used a watch oiler (watch
>repair used to be a hobby of mine) you maybe don't realise what a minute
>amout of liquid it holds.  There are simply not enough total molecules
>present to really creep anywhere, and capillary action is likely to keep
>what minuscule amount there is, between string and V-bar.

>I do think that not having WD40 in the car at all is a bit extreme! 
>Sometimes one might come across a tatty old upright with a creaky/squeaky
>rusty pedal, and a pedal mechanism of very difficult access.  The proper
>procedure would be dismantling, cleaning, apropriately lubricating and
>re-assembling. But the cost of doing that might exceed the value of the
>piano.  In that circumstance a very tiny spray of WD40 through the thin
>flexible tube, strategically aimed, can offer an effective and economical
>solution.

>The fact that an idiot egregiously misused the stuff  doesn't mean that it
>can't have a valid sensible use.  That would be like saying because
>someone once ruined his car engine by pouring oil all over it, you won't
>have oil anywhere near the engine......

>Your experience does though open up the question of just how bad some
>tuner/technicians might be...... but that's another topic!

>Scott, you say, regarding lowering  string tension to cleanand/or
>lubricate the V-bar,
>"Paul, don't do it mate.
>Unwinding strings that much will just about guarantee at least one WILL
>break at the tuning pin. Not to mention the amount of time that it will
>take - you may as well restring it by the time you do all that! If you're
>worried, just a drop of CLP or Pro-Lube and get on with it. If they're
>gonna go, they're gonna go.........."

>Yes, that was my feeling.  The use of the tiny spot of WD40 for each
>string was my "minimal interventionist" approach - I figured that even if
>it didn't do anything to help stop strings breaking, it wouldn't do any
>harm - and it MIGHT help to stop breakages in further playing/tuning (the
>two strings broke in playing).

>Best regards,

>David

From "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>

WD-40 is a degreaser for rust prevention? I though it was common practice to 
put petroleum projects (such as grease) on tools and other metals to prevent 
rust. Rather than WD-40 being a degreaser, I think a better description 
would be that it is a dewaterer (my word, not from Planet Earth)!

Actually, WD-40 does work as a degreaser, but only because it is made of 
more volatile and less viscous petroleum products. But I think any 
degreasing properties it may posses are not the cause of it preventing rust, 
i.e. both WD-40 and grease help prevent rust.

Terry Farrell

PS: Gee whizz. Ya don't hear from me for weeks on end and then one day I 
wake up and decide I know everything about everything. And apparently I feel 
the need to let everyone know! Maybe tomorrow I'll wake up to reality!  ;-)



                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                 Original Message ----- 
> WD stands for water displacement...it is a degreaser for rust prevention. 
> It's not a lubricant...
>
> David Ilvedson, RPT 

From "paul bruesch" <paul@bruesch.net>

Yeah, I wuz wunderin' if someone got an automatic dictation translator for
Valentine's Day or sumthin'
anonanon

On Feb 18, 2008 11:55 AM, Farrell <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

>
> PS: Gee whizz. Ya don't hear from me for weeks on end and then one day I
> wake up and decide I know everything about everything. And apparently I
> feel
> the need to let everyone know! Maybe tomorrow I'll wake up to reality!
>  ;-)
>

From "David Boyce" <David@piano.plus.com>

"WD stands for water displacement...it is a degreaser for rust prevention. 
It's not a lubricant...

David Ilvedson, RPT
Pacifica, CA  94044"

Haha, but it seemed to lubricate the tuning pins OK on the piano that guy 
sprayed with it!

But yes, my idea in using it instead of high quality watch oil was the 
anti-rust property.

Best regards,

David.