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Bremmer up a third, up a third, down a fifth

  • 1.  Bremmer up a third, up a third, down a fifth

    Posted 08-05-2021 09:19
    Can anyone point me to Bill Bremmer's article "Up a Third, Up a Third, Down a Fifth"?
    TIA!

    ------------------------------
    Eric Schell
    ericschellpiano@gmail.com
    Austin TX
    512-363-6236
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Bremmer up a third, up a third, down a fifth

    Posted 08-05-2021 18:21
    Never mind.  The article is in the April 2021 journal.  It was lying on my nightstand.  Wasn't really too hard to find...

    ------------------------------
    Eric Schell
    ericschellpiano@gmail.com
    Austin TX
    512-363-6236
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Bremmer up a third, up a third, down a fifth

    Posted 08-05-2021 18:38
    Curious...while I'm not sure about upping thirds, I have reason to
    understand that downing fifths can be exceptionally useful for creating
    harmonious outcomes.

    Cheers!

    Horace

    On 8/5/2021 3:20 PM, Eric Schell via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
    > Never mind.?? The article is in the April 2021 journal.?? It was lying on my nightstand.?? Wasn't really too hard to find...
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > Eric Schell
    > ericschellpiano@gmail.com
    > Austin TX
    > 512-363-6236
    > ------------------------------
    > -------------------------------------------
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 08-05-2021 09:18
    > From: Eric Schell
    > Subject: Bremmer up a third, up a third, down a fifth
    >
    > Can anyone point me to Bill Bremmer's article "Up a Third, Up a Third, Down a Fifth"?
    > TIA!
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > Eric Schell
    > ericschellpiano@gmail.com <ericschellpiano@gmail.com>
    > Austin TX
    > 512-363-6236
    > ------------------------------
    >
    >
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    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: Bremmer up a third, up a third, down a fifth

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-05-2021 20:30
    Or seriously strange outcomes...😉

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: Bremmer up a third, up a third, down a fifth

    Posted 08-05-2021 21:34
    Hee hee :)

    ------------------------------
    Eric Schell
    ericschellpiano@gmail.com
    Austin TX
    512-363-6236
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: Bremmer up a third, up a third, down a fifth

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-12-2021 13:26
    He's probably talking about a 3ds/6ths temperament, which recreates a series of ladders of 3 (evenly accelerating) 3ds (an augmented major triad, if you will), and making your way through the 4 ladders with a downwards jump of a 5th.


    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: Bremmer up a third, up a third, down a fifth

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-13-2021 09:31
    I began tuning using this sequence. Travis book was the second book I acquired on the subject. Then my first teacher introduced me to the Faust method (same pattern only in C). I used the Up3...Up3..Down5 for years. I now use U4...D3...U4...D3 as I hear 4ths better than I hear 5ths. 

    Interesting comment by Bill in the next to last paragraph of the article. I agree entirely which is why I refuse to relegate my decision-making to a battery.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: Bremmer up a third, up a third, down a fifth

    Posted 08-13-2021 12:11
      |   view attached
    Peter, yes - John Travis's "Let's Tune Up" book.  What he called the Grabau-Travis Tuning Theory.  Up a third, up a third, down a fifth, etc.  I took John's piano tuning course around 1977 at a local community college, and I still use his approach.  I'll attach here the most recent version of my charts that describe John's  tuning details, and I have other tuning articles posted on my Web site.  Of course we all supplement the basics with our own favorite interval tests, which I have included in the charts.  I certainly agree with you about using aural tuning -- but I must confess that I do use batteries in my hearing aids!  (For those not familiar with John, he was the first PTG co-president in 1957.) Regards, Norman

    ------------------------------
    Norman Brickman
    Potomac Piano Service
    Potomac, Maryland
    potomacpiano@verizon.net
    https://potomacpiano.com
    (301) 983.9321
    ------------------------------

    Attachment(s)

    pdf
    LearningAuralPianoTuning.pdf   696 KB 1 version
    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: Bremmer up a third, up a third, down a fifth

    Posted 08-13-2021 12:25
    Yes, I believe this is the method taught by John Travis for setting a temperament.

    ------------------------------
    Richard Adkins
    Piano Technician and
    Curator of Instruments
    Coe College
    Cedar Rapids, IA
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: Bremmer up a third, up a third, down a fifth

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-13-2021 13:28
    Though his "secret sauce" was to do it from F#3-F#4 rather than F3-F4. Theory being that since many pianists "feel" that playing in the sharps sounds somehow better than playing in the naturals, he could transfer that "sound" to the naturals by tuning the pattern starting on a sharp key. Something about slight errors inherent in any bearing setting pattern that when shifted up changed the whole perception of the natural keys. I think this was where Grabeau came into the picture. I may have some details wrong but that's the gist of what I remember.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: Bremmer up a third, up a third, down a fifth

    Posted 08-13-2021 15:17
    Peter, yes, it looks like Dr. Martin Grabau, physics at Harvard, put John on to F#3 to F#4 for the kinds of reasons you gave.  I use the other option John gave, C#3 to C#4.  But if I ever lose my C# tuning fork I don't know that they are still available.  There was also discussion by John in his book of the tempered fifth versus just fifth and the related diatonic comma.  Still a topic of current conversation among tuners.  But the math still says that "if the octave ratio is to be maintained" the fifth must be contracted.  Equal Temperament (i.e., 12-TET based on the octave) cannot have pure fifths.  Bringing in inharmonicity (the Railsback Curve) reinforces this - or just use your ears!  Norman

    ------------------------------
    Norman Brickman
    Potomac Piano Service
    Potomac, Maryland
    potomacpiano@verizon.net
    https://potomacpiano.com
    (301) 983.9321
    ------------------------------

    Original Message