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Removing fire smoke smell from a piano

  • 1.  Removing fire smoke smell from a piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-31-2017 21:42

    Random Question.

    My customer has just acquired a piano that had been in a fire.  Apparently the fire was in the back of the house and the piano wasn't damaged, but still has a heavy smell of soot and smoke to it.  I guess his wife is non to pleased about this.  Any suggestions on how to help remove or cover that smell?

    Thanks!

    Sam



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    Sam Gilman
    617-267-8436
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  • 2.  RE: Removing fire smoke smell from a piano

    Posted 01-31-2017 22:17
    My experience, after a piano has been subjected to a fires soot/smoke the piano will likely be unuseable in the months and years to come. Soot/Smoke is acidic and invades and attacks all the felt, wood, and steel causing center pins to eventually seize and cause deterioration of the strings and metals. The smell of the smoke is the indicator. Over time humidity interacts with the induced pollution to eventually make the piano impractical to restore.

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    Garret Traylor
    Trinity NC
    336-887-4266
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  • 3.  RE: Removing fire smoke smell from a piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-31-2017 22:19
    Hello Sam,

    Cory Care Products (www.corycare.com) has a complete line of fire-cleanup products. Contact Dave Swartz directly and he will answer all your questions about dealing with smoke smell.

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    Peter Stevenson RPT
    P.S. Piano Service
    Prince George BC
    250-562-5358
    ps@pspianoservice.com
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  • 4.  RE: Removing fire smoke smell from a piano

    Posted 02-01-2017 07:45

    I had a similar case a couple years back. I had just delivered a nice Baldwin grand and they had an electrical fire with smoke everywhere. The piano had no fire or water damage, but smelled like a fireplace. I first cleaned off the entire finish using (don't laugh) "Totally Awesome", the spray cleaner sold at the Dollar Store (it didn't harm the lacquer finish). It's a dollar, but a great product. The cloth came up brown from the smoke tar.  I made tools to clean the soundboard, also. I have also sealed the keyframe and other bare wood parts with clear shellac from a rattle can (this also works with mouse & cat urine). I used the Cory smoke product on the action. The result was pretty good. You could still smell some smoke if you put your nose very close, but it wasn't obvious. 


    I also bought a used ozone generator off eBay, but I didn't use it. That might be a good option on a real stinker. Another trick is to use some cedar oil inside the action cavity. I put some on the wood strip that holds down the keys. You get a little whiff of cedar when you open the fallboard. 


    Phil






  • 5.  RE: Removing fire smoke smell from a piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-01-2017 07:59
    I had a Kawai GS-50 in my shop for 21 months. It sat airing out most of the time. The heat was so high that it melted the lacquer on the soundboard (top and bottom), so soot was embedded everywhere. The piano should have thrown away.

    When I finally finished, the customer played it for two hours and never smelled smoke. I will probably never do that again, but I learned a lot.

    If you want to have a detailed description of what I did, please call me. I'll be glad to share.

    -John Parham

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    John Parham, RPT
    Hickory, NC
    828-244-2487
    john440@me.com
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  • 6.  RE: Removing fire smoke smell from a piano

    Posted 01-31-2017 22:31
    Please call me tomorrow afternoon...so many discussions regarding this topic lately with bits and pieces of half truths.  952-469-5354.  I've created a protocol and detoxification techniques specifically for pianos.  Write ups and videos are on our website, once logged on.  





  • 7.  RE: Removing fire smoke smell from a piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-01-2017 02:14
    Years ago I did several fire restoration jobs that I though were disasters.  I never got the smell out and the pianos should have been total losses (but weren't).
    More recently I observed modern restoration procedures where the furniture was placed into a prepared room with an ozone generator and the odor was completely removed.
    I am not suggesting that the acidity or heat damage from the fire was removed or eliminated, but what I once would have called a complete loss was made usable.
    Spraying on Febreze (or any other odor reducing mixture) is probably less than useless, but if an experienced restoration company is involved you might let them have a go at it first.

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    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
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  • 8.  RE: Removing fire smoke smell from a piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-01-2017 08:15
    Sam,
    Do contact David Swartz.  I have used their smoke removal product many times.  I take the piano apart, clean out thoroughly, then while apart I lower a pvc pipe box which is wrapped in clear plastic down over the piano. Then I spray the fogging agent into the box with an electric thermal sprayer through a 4" opening that I can cap, let it sit for a couple hours then fog it again. I'm sure David can give you more detailed instructions.  While there are legitimate concerns as Garret suggests we've had good results with this technique.


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    Gary Bruce, RPT
    Bruce Piano Service
    Edmond, OK
    405-413-TUNE
    www.brucepiano.com
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  • 9.  RE: Removing fire smoke smell from a piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-01-2017 15:03
    Will these procedures work on a piano that has been subjected to decades of cigarette smoke?

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 10.  RE: Removing fire smoke smell from a piano

    Posted 02-01-2017 15:19
    I have several times put fire damaged pianos in an ozone tent for several days and was always happy with the result. It does work for cigarette smoke too.

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    Charles Rempel
    Sales & Marketing Director
    Dampp-Chaser Corp.
    HENDERSONVILLE NC
    828-692-8271
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  • 11.  RE: Removing fire smoke smell from a piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-01-2017 17:44
    I don't know what I can add to what has already been suggested here for remedy, but I can add one useful caveat -- include in your repair estimate the cost of a two-year follow-up visit to assess the long-term effects of the heat and smoke.  Glue joints are the most common fatality:  they become brittle more rapidly when subjected to intense heat.  Make sure the customer understands that the effects may not be completely apparent for several years.

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    Ron Bergeron, RPT
    Austin, Texas
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  • 12.  RE: Removing fire smoke smell from a piano

    Posted 02-01-2017 17:55
    Please log on to our website as a dealer (as the articles and videos are only available to industry professionals).  I've addressed the use of ozone, the reasons why and why not, how odor bearing particles are detoxified, atmospheric conditions, etc.  Much information being passed around would be better served if properly informed.  I've written numerous articles and taught classes on this subject since the 90's as pioneering the protocols (much much research and trial and error BTW). 


    Click on "dealers" in the upper navigation bar, register, we'll authenticate then log in using those credentials.  The smoke damage/odor control articles are located in "dealer resources" (upper navigation bar) when logging in.  Once reviewed and have further questions, please contact me.  The initial 18 hours is the most damaging...after that....NO, the piano does NOT continue to  deteriate.  Ozone works by oxidation (think rust)....this also is addressed in the articles.

    Thank you and hope this proves helpful.

    Dave

    --
    Dave Swartz, RPT
    Cory Products
    www.corycare.com
    dave@corycare.com







  • 13.  RE: Removing fire smoke smell from a piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-01-2017 21:35

    Thank you all for your input!  It's been very helpful.  I've run this all by my customer.  Honestly, it's a Kohler and Cambell Spinet that he got for free because of the fire, so I'm not recommending him investing a ton of money to remove the smell.  Could probably easily purchase another one for a similar amount.  Those types of pianos are very common around my area.  But all this information is good to know for any future issues when this comes up again, as i'm sure it will. 

    Thank you!

    Sam



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    Samuel Gilman
    Dedham MA
    617-267-8436
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  • 14.  RE: Removing fire smoke smell from a piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-02-2017 18:00
    "The initial 18 hours is the most damaging...after that....NO, the piano does NOT continue to  deteriate."  

    I don't understand how this can be true.  If we agree that a brittle glue joint will fail sooner than a fresh one and that intense heat will dry glue joints, doesn't it follow that the piano may deteriorate over a longer period of time than 18 hours if it is subjected to intense heat?  I'm curious if others have experienced this phenomenon:  a piano rescued from a house fire seems fine upon initial inspection, but several years later multiple glue joints fail?


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    Ron Bergeron, RPT
    Austin, Texas
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  • 15.  RE: Removing fire smoke smell from a piano

    Posted 02-02-2017 19:13
    Ron,

    Numerous factors must be taken in consideration when dealing with these pianos.  We must determine the type of fire, location of the fire in relation to the piano, type of heat, driven or free floating, etc.  Each is different.  To assume that every piano that is subject to odor bearing particles (incomplete combustion i.e. soot) has an effect on glue joints is not realistic.  Yes, there are those instruments that suffer from not only intense heat but also the extinguishing process, humidity levels (from very low to very high in a particular setting).  

    My point is that the corrossive particulates due the most damage in the first 18 hours.  A "puff back" for instance in a basement oil burner, with the piano upstairs may receive some "soot" but by no means is the piano at risk.  A thorough cleaning is all that is necessary and will have no future problems if done correctly.

    This is why in my initial article (as seen on the PTG website) I address those issues when assessing the instrument.  Those will help determine the types of residue, the placement of the fire, the method in which the fire was extinguished, and so on.

    Dave

    --
    Dave Swartz, RPT
    Cory Products
    www.corycare.com
    dave@corycare.com







  • 16.  RE: Removing fire smoke smell from a piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-03-2017 14:19
    Interesting thread.

    Just FYI, there are companies that can be hired to assess situations and hire professionals who assess situations like this, and their job is to make the insurance company pay out what they are actually required to pay out by their own contract. I met someone this year doing a house fire piano evaluation, and his company hires specialists, compiles actual cost to rebuild, repair or replace what's damaged. Then they go into settlement with the insurance company, in many cases settling for much much more than the insurance said it would pay out.

    In the case of fire, the heat and humidity fluctuation generated by the fire can have effects on the piano for years to come. With water, there is even more of an unknown, since elements like rust or mold can take time to appear. The possibilities are endless in these scenarios with thousands of moving parts, glue joints, veneer, felt, leather, thread, and plastic that can all dry out and become effected but only show it in time.
    That's my opinion anyhow, and in insurance matters I strive to be as honest as possible while looking for what could happen down the road. That said, people pay tens of thousands of dollars over the course of their lives for insurance to protect what they have worked hard to own and maintain. I would hate to see the damage or possible damage be underestimated, and it's better safe than sorry.

    Elizabeth Pearson RPT




  • 17.  RE: Removing fire smoke smell from a piano

    Posted 02-02-2017 06:51

    I've had several "smoker" pianos in my shop. A couple years ago, I got a gorgeous 1977 Bechstein M grand. The late owner babied the piano. It had a custom string cover and perfect glossy black finish. Only problem: she was a chain smoker (note that I said "late"). Anyway, I used the same spray cleaner as in my last post over the entire piano. Using a white cloth, I could see the brown tar removed from the surface. That is the smell source. I sealed the keyframe, keybed and even the individual keys with clear shellac. I sprayed the Cory product on the felts. The eventual buyer of the piano never noticed any odors.


    Phil






  • 18.  RE: Removing fire smoke smell from a piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-02-2017 10:08
    I'd like to cast a vote for the ozone here. I had Steinway M  in the shop last year with smoke damage.   Fire broke out downstairs and filled the lady's house with smoke.   She knew beforehand that the piano was going to need some work, so I ended up restringing and replacing action parts as well.  Her insurance claim paid for about half of it.  Naturally you want to clean off any surface that could accumulate soot, but the problematic part of getting rid of the odor in a piano is really the all the felt parts, and to a lesser degree the wood parts which are not finished.   In this case I was going to replace all the felt: action parts, dampers, keyed felt, etc., and I knew that before the piano came into the shop, however,  just as a test, I had the guy come and set up the ozone generator in the shop before I took everything out, just to see how effective it would be.   I was quite impressed with the result.  After having the ozone generator run for around 16 hours in the closed up shop, there was no noticeable odor left, and this was even before I started cleaning all the surfaces and pulling out parts.  As I recall the treatment (which was billed to the insurance company in this case) ran around $400.

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    Cecil Snyder
    Torrance CA
    310-542-7108
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