Pianotech

Does anyone have any experience with the Heintzman grand piano made in China?  I have a customer who recently purchased one (used, one owner) ; the original owner said they bought it in China from the factory in 1999.
My question is about quality and authenticity.  Everything I have read indicates this is a quality brand, but this piano is a mess!  Noisy strings full of beats, hammers misaligned badly, and the regulation is a complete mess.  I could hardly tune it because the notes functioned so poorly, and I am planning to go back and do a full regulation.
Would going from China to New Mexico cause such a dramatic change?  Obviously when I do the regulation I will check for warped parts, loose bridge pins, etc.
I guess I would just like to know if this is a common occurrence in this brand, and if it is indeed an actual Heintzman.  The serial number stamped on the plate is 98040, which doesn't match up with the Pierce Atlas, or the serial numbers on the Heintzman web site.  The customer has lots of questions naturally, and I would like to be armed with more information!
Thanks!


------------------------------
Laura Wright, RPT
Ivory Keys Piano Service
Durango CO
------------------------------

Taper and graduate the hammer weight. Install lead for a smooth BW. I've improved at least 16 of these.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-26-2018 12:20
From: Laura Wright
Subject: Heintzman piano

Does anyone have any experience with the Heintzman grand piano made in China?  I have a customer who recently purchased one (used, one owner) ; the original owner said they bought it in China from the factory in 1999.
My question is about quality and authenticity.  Everything I have read indicates this is a quality brand, but this piano is a mess!  Noisy strings full of beats, hammers misaligned badly, and the regulation is a complete mess.  I could hardly tune it because the notes functioned so poorly, and I am planning to go back and do a full regulation.
Would going from China to New Mexico cause such a dramatic change?  Obviously when I do the regulation I will check for warped parts, loose bridge pins, etc.
I guess I would just like to know if this is a common occurrence in this brand, and if it is indeed an actual Heintzman.  The serial number stamped on the plate is 98040, which doesn't match up with the Pierce Atlas, or the serial numbers on the Heintzman web site.  The customer has lots of questions naturally, and I would like to be armed with more information!
Thanks!


------------------------------
Laura Wright, RPT
Ivory Keys Piano Service
Durango CO
------------------------------

Unfortunately, when the Chinese bought the Heintzman name, they didn't copy any of the Heintzman virtues. Ted Sambell, who worked at the Toronto Heintzman factory for a little while, said:

<<We visited the Xing Hai piano factory in Beijing. They told us they had recently bought a Canadian company named Heintzman. They were also a subsidiary of Pearl River. When I later saw their Heintzman pianos, the only feature remaining from Heintzman was a model with a sliding fallboard, one of Heintzman's poorest features.>>

This is in Chapter 25 (of 26) in his memoirs. He talked about a number of IAPBT tours he took, including staying in a hotel next to Tianenman Square during the riots, and how the IAPBT group managed to fly to Tokyo getting a Chinese man out of Beijing so he could get back to his family in the U.S.

I got to tune and work on real Heintzmans when I lived in Canada. First rate pianos, though the quality of the later ones was starting to tail off some.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-26-2018 12:20
From: Laura Wright
Subject: Heintzman piano

Does anyone have any experience with the Heintzman grand piano made in China?  I have a customer who recently purchased one (used, one owner) ; the original owner said they bought it in China from the factory in 1999.
My question is about quality and authenticity.  Everything I have read indicates this is a quality brand, but this piano is a mess!  Noisy strings full of beats, hammers misaligned badly, and the regulation is a complete mess.  I could hardly tune it because the notes functioned so poorly, and I am planning to go back and do a full regulation.
Would going from China to New Mexico cause such a dramatic change?  Obviously when I do the regulation I will check for warped parts, loose bridge pins, etc.
I guess I would just like to know if this is a common occurrence in this brand, and if it is indeed an actual Heintzman.  The serial number stamped on the plate is 98040, which doesn't match up with the Pierce Atlas, or the serial numbers on the Heintzman web site.  The customer has lots of questions naturally, and I would like to be armed with more information!
Thanks!


------------------------------
Laura Wright, RPT
Ivory Keys Piano Service
Durango CO
------------------------------

Hi Laura.

Sounds like warped hammer shanks and so what about the keys?

Warpage on everything is probably a product of not drying the wood used prior to installing the parts in the piano.  Another thing to consider is whether or not the piano was in a flood.  You'd expect the strings to be rusty as ever is this were true and hammers have a tendency to bloom.

From the sounds of things, the Chinese factory in question cut labor costs and assembly time where ever they could.  If green wood was used the piano would continue to change for years after it was made  ....  I'd expect.  It's been twenty years or so since the piano was born according to one account.  Durango is a dry place typically.   Let's hope the piano is done changing and your efforts to regulate these "green wood" parts holds for a while.  Perhaps have the customer sign a waiver indicating the possibility that the piano may require repeated service for the same things more so than any other piano.

Go about your services on this piano with caution.  We're used to working on viable instruments in our trade.  This one may be that bag of worms that could ruin your day/week/month/career.

------------------------------
Larry Fisher
Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
Vancouver WA
360-256-2999
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-26-2018 12:20
From: Laura Wright
Subject: Heintzman piano

Does anyone have any experience with the Heintzman grand piano made in China?  I have a customer who recently purchased one (used, one owner) ; the original owner said they bought it in China from the factory in 1999.
My question is about quality and authenticity.  Everything I have read indicates this is a quality brand, but this piano is a mess!  Noisy strings full of beats, hammers misaligned badly, and the regulation is a complete mess.  I could hardly tune it because the notes functioned so poorly, and I am planning to go back and do a full regulation.
Would going from China to New Mexico cause such a dramatic change?  Obviously when I do the regulation I will check for warped parts, loose bridge pins, etc.
I guess I would just like to know if this is a common occurrence in this brand, and if it is indeed an actual Heintzman.  The serial number stamped on the plate is 98040, which doesn't match up with the Pierce Atlas, or the serial numbers on the Heintzman web site.  The customer has lots of questions naturally, and I would like to be armed with more information!
Thanks!


------------------------------
Laura Wright, RPT
Ivory Keys Piano Service
Durango CO
------------------------------

You asked about quality and authenticity. Regarding quality, Heintzman pianos, like many other pianos made in China, started out very bad and have been improving pretty consistently. I don't have a lot of experience of Heintzman pianos of that vintage, but I have been a Heintzman dealer for the last couple of years. New Heintzmans have their particular problems but they are probably on par with most other pianos coming out of China at this point. Green wood is still sometimes an issue, however.

Regarding authenticity, the history of Heintzman is somewhat complex. Heintzman is not a stencil piano, in that they own their own factory and make their own pianos. Like most old companies that have experienced bankruptcy, some parts of the heritage have stayed on and other parts have not. But certainly do not expect the same kind of quality that you would see in a Heintzman old upright or grand. If you are wanting more details about my experience or about their history I am happy to share more, either on- or off-list.

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-27-2018 10:42
From: Larry Fisher
Subject: Heintzman piano

Hi Laura.

Sounds like warped hammer shanks and so what about the keys?

Warpage on everything is probably a product of not drying the wood used prior to installing the parts in the piano.  Another thing to consider is whether or not the piano was in a flood.  You'd expect the strings to be rusty as ever is this were true and hammers have a tendency to bloom.

From the sounds of things, the Chinese factory in question cut labor costs and assembly time where ever they could.  If green wood was used the piano would continue to change for years after it was made  ....  I'd expect.  It's been twenty years or so since the piano was born according to one account.  Durango is a dry place typically.   Let's hope the piano is done changing and your efforts to regulate these "green wood" parts holds for a while.  Perhaps have the customer sign a waiver indicating the possibility that the piano may require repeated service for the same things more so than any other piano.

Go about your services on this piano with caution.  We're used to working on viable instruments in our trade.  This one may be that bag of worms that could ruin your day/week/month/career.

------------------------------
Larry Fisher
Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
Vancouver WA
360-256-2999

Original Message:
Sent: 01-26-2018 12:20
From: Laura Wright
Subject: Heintzman piano

Does anyone have any experience with the Heintzman grand piano made in China?  I have a customer who recently purchased one (used, one owner) ; the original owner said they bought it in China from the factory in 1999.
My question is about quality and authenticity.  Everything I have read indicates this is a quality brand, but this piano is a mess!  Noisy strings full of beats, hammers misaligned badly, and the regulation is a complete mess.  I could hardly tune it because the notes functioned so poorly, and I am planning to go back and do a full regulation.
Would going from China to New Mexico cause such a dramatic change?  Obviously when I do the regulation I will check for warped parts, loose bridge pins, etc.
I guess I would just like to know if this is a common occurrence in this brand, and if it is indeed an actual Heintzman.  The serial number stamped on the plate is 98040, which doesn't match up with the Pierce Atlas, or the serial numbers on the Heintzman web site.  The customer has lots of questions naturally, and I would like to be armed with more information!
Thanks!


------------------------------
Laura Wright, RPT
Ivory Keys Piano Service
Durango CO
------------------------------

If someone in the U.S. wants a real Heintzman from their best years, a trip to Canada is almost certainly required. I've sometimes been tempted to go there and bring home a really good Bell upright, too, but it does seem a somewhat quiixotic thing to do.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-28-2018 21:58
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Heintzman piano

You asked about quality and authenticity. Regarding quality, Heintzman pianos, like many other pianos made in China, started out very bad and have been improving pretty consistently. I don't have a lot of experience of Heintzman pianos of that vintage, but I have been a Heintzman dealer for the last couple of years. New Heintzmans have their particular problems but they are probably on par with most other pianos coming out of China at this point. Green wood is still sometimes an issue, however.

Regarding authenticity, the history of Heintzman is somewhat complex. Heintzman is not a stencil piano, in that they own their own factory and make their own pianos. Like most old companies that have experienced bankruptcy, some parts of the heritage have stayed on and other parts have not. But certainly do not expect the same kind of quality that you would see in a Heintzman old upright or grand. If you are wanting more details about my experience or about their history I am happy to share more, either on- or off-list.

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com

Original Message:
Sent: 01-27-2018 10:42
From: Larry Fisher
Subject: Heintzman piano

Hi Laura.

Sounds like warped hammer shanks and so what about the keys?

Warpage on everything is probably a product of not drying the wood used prior to installing the parts in the piano.  Another thing to consider is whether or not the piano was in a flood.  You'd expect the strings to be rusty as ever is this were true and hammers have a tendency to bloom.

From the sounds of things, the Chinese factory in question cut labor costs and assembly time where ever they could.  If green wood was used the piano would continue to change for years after it was made  ....  I'd expect.  It's been twenty years or so since the piano was born according to one account.  Durango is a dry place typically.   Let's hope the piano is done changing and your efforts to regulate these "green wood" parts holds for a while.  Perhaps have the customer sign a waiver indicating the possibility that the piano may require repeated service for the same things more so than any other piano.

Go about your services on this piano with caution.  We're used to working on viable instruments in our trade.  This one may be that bag of worms that could ruin your day/week/month/career.

------------------------------
Larry Fisher
Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
Vancouver WA
360-256-2999

Original Message:
Sent: 01-26-2018 12:20
From: Laura Wright
Subject: Heintzman piano

Does anyone have any experience with the Heintzman grand piano made in China?  I have a customer who recently purchased one (used, one owner) ; the original owner said they bought it in China from the factory in 1999.
My question is about quality and authenticity.  Everything I have read indicates this is a quality brand, but this piano is a mess!  Noisy strings full of beats, hammers misaligned badly, and the regulation is a complete mess.  I could hardly tune it because the notes functioned so poorly, and I am planning to go back and do a full regulation.
Would going from China to New Mexico cause such a dramatic change?  Obviously when I do the regulation I will check for warped parts, loose bridge pins, etc.
I guess I would just like to know if this is a common occurrence in this brand, and if it is indeed an actual Heintzman.  The serial number stamped on the plate is 98040, which doesn't match up with the Pierce Atlas, or the serial numbers on the Heintzman web site.  The customer has lots of questions naturally, and I would like to be armed with more information!
Thanks!


------------------------------
Laura Wright, RPT
Ivory Keys Piano Service
Durango CO
------------------------------

Hi...

Many of the Canadian pianos, including the old Heintzmans, were great pianos! Susan mentioned the "Bell" piano. Art Gieck, RPT just finished rebuilding and refinishing an old 4-pedal Bell including rebuilding the "celeste" system as well as replacing all the silk cords on the Illimitable Repeating Action. With the soundboard repair, new bridges and a set of Abel hammers this piano played like a dream and had that beautiful Bell tone quality in the high treble. I have a few other pictures, but this one (attached) is Art with the finished piano.

------------------------------
John Musselwhite, RPT
Calgary, AB Canada
www.musselwhite.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-28-2018 23:04
From: Susan Kline
Subject: Heintzman piano

If someone in the U.S. wants a real Heintzman from their best years, a trip to Canada is almost certainly required. I've sometimes been tempted to go there and bring home a really good Bell upright, too, but it does seem a somewhat quiixotic thing to do.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon

Original Message:
Sent: 01-28-2018 21:58
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Heintzman piano

You asked about quality and authenticity. Regarding quality, Heintzman pianos, like many other pianos made in China, started out very bad and have been improving pretty consistently. I don't have a lot of experience of Heintzman pianos of that vintage, but I have been a Heintzman dealer for the last couple of years. New Heintzmans have their particular problems but they are probably on par with most other pianos coming out of China at this point. Green wood is still sometimes an issue, however.

Regarding authenticity, the history of Heintzman is somewhat complex. Heintzman is not a stencil piano, in that they own their own factory and make their own pianos. Like most old companies that have experienced bankruptcy, some parts of the heritage have stayed on and other parts have not. But certainly do not expect the same kind of quality that you would see in a Heintzman old upright or grand. If you are wanting more details about my experience or about their history I am happy to share more, either on- or off-list.

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com

Original Message:
Sent: 01-27-2018 10:42
From: Larry Fisher
Subject: Heintzman piano

Hi Laura.

Sounds like warped hammer shanks and so what about the keys?

Warpage on everything is probably a product of not drying the wood used prior to installing the parts in the piano.  Another thing to consider is whether or not the piano was in a flood.  You'd expect the strings to be rusty as ever is this were true and hammers have a tendency to bloom.

From the sounds of things, the Chinese factory in question cut labor costs and assembly time where ever they could.  If green wood was used the piano would continue to change for years after it was made  ....  I'd expect.  It's been twenty years or so since the piano was born according to one account.  Durango is a dry place typically.   Let's hope the piano is done changing and your efforts to regulate these "green wood" parts holds for a while.  Perhaps have the customer sign a waiver indicating the possibility that the piano may require repeated service for the same things more so than any other piano.

Go about your services on this piano with caution.  We're used to working on viable instruments in our trade.  This one may be that bag of worms that could ruin your day/week/month/career.

------------------------------
Larry Fisher
Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
Vancouver WA
360-256-2999

Original Message:
Sent: 01-26-2018 12:20
From: Laura Wright
Subject: Heintzman piano

Does anyone have any experience with the Heintzman grand piano made in China?  I have a customer who recently purchased one (used, one owner) ; the original owner said they bought it in China from the factory in 1999.
My question is about quality and authenticity.  Everything I have read indicates this is a quality brand, but this piano is a mess!  Noisy strings full of beats, hammers misaligned badly, and the regulation is a complete mess.  I could hardly tune it because the notes functioned so poorly, and I am planning to go back and do a full regulation.
Would going from China to New Mexico cause such a dramatic change?  Obviously when I do the regulation I will check for warped parts, loose bridge pins, etc.
I guess I would just like to know if this is a common occurrence in this brand, and if it is indeed an actual Heintzman.  The serial number stamped on the plate is 98040, which doesn't match up with the Pierce Atlas, or the serial numbers on the Heintzman web site.  The customer has lots of questions naturally, and I would like to be armed with more information!
Thanks!


------------------------------
Laura Wright, RPT
Ivory Keys Piano Service
Durango CO
------------------------------

Thanks for posting that picture John! So far I've only heard Heintzmans, never tuned one yet. Thus my experience has been only good so far, but was reading something from about 30 years ago saying that Heintzmans had an issue which made them extremely difficult to tune. Anyone know what it is, or if it still happens on new ones?

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez
Professional Piano Services
(805)315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com
BenPianoPro@comcast.net
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-30-2018 15:01
From: John Musselwhite
Subject: Heintzman piano

Hi...

Many of the Canadian pianos, including the old Heintzmans, were great pianos! Susan mentioned the "Bell" piano. Art Gieck, RPT just finished rebuilding and refinishing an old 4-pedal Bell including rebuilding the "celeste" system as well as replacing all the silk cords on the Illimitable Repeating Action. With the soundboard repair, new bridges and a set of Abel hammers this piano played like a dream and had that beautiful Bell tone quality in the high treble. I have a few other pictures, but this one (attached) is Art with the finished piano.

------------------------------
John Musselwhite, RPT
Calgary, AB Canada
www.musselwhite.com

Original Message:
Sent: 01-28-2018 23:04
From: Susan Kline
Subject: Heintzman piano

If someone in the U.S. wants a real Heintzman from their best years, a trip to Canada is almost certainly required. I've sometimes been tempted to go there and bring home a really good Bell upright, too, but it does seem a somewhat quiixotic thing to do.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon

Original Message:
Sent: 01-28-2018 21:58
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Heintzman piano

You asked about quality and authenticity. Regarding quality, Heintzman pianos, like many other pianos made in China, started out very bad and have been improving pretty consistently. I don't have a lot of experience of Heintzman pianos of that vintage, but I have been a Heintzman dealer for the last couple of years. New Heintzmans have their particular problems but they are probably on par with most other pianos coming out of China at this point. Green wood is still sometimes an issue, however.

Regarding authenticity, the history of Heintzman is somewhat complex. Heintzman is not a stencil piano, in that they own their own factory and make their own pianos. Like most old companies that have experienced bankruptcy, some parts of the heritage have stayed on and other parts have not. But certainly do not expect the same kind of quality that you would see in a Heintzman old upright or grand. If you are wanting more details about my experience or about their history I am happy to share more, either on- or off-list.

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com

Original Message:
Sent: 01-27-2018 10:42
From: Larry Fisher
Subject: Heintzman piano

Hi Laura.

Sounds like warped hammer shanks and so what about the keys?

Warpage on everything is probably a product of not drying the wood used prior to installing the parts in the piano.  Another thing to consider is whether or not the piano was in a flood.  You'd expect the strings to be rusty as ever is this were true and hammers have a tendency to bloom.

From the sounds of things, the Chinese factory in question cut labor costs and assembly time where ever they could.  If green wood was used the piano would continue to change for years after it was made  ....  I'd expect.  It's been twenty years or so since the piano was born according to one account.  Durango is a dry place typically.   Let's hope the piano is done changing and your efforts to regulate these "green wood" parts holds for a while.  Perhaps have the customer sign a waiver indicating the possibility that the piano may require repeated service for the same things more so than any other piano.

Go about your services on this piano with caution.  We're used to working on viable instruments in our trade.  This one may be that bag of worms that could ruin your day/week/month/career.

------------------------------
Larry Fisher
Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
Vancouver WA
360-256-2999

Original Message:
Sent: 01-26-2018 12:20
From: Laura Wright
Subject: Heintzman piano

Does anyone have any experience with the Heintzman grand piano made in China?  I have a customer who recently purchased one (used, one owner) ; the original owner said they bought it in China from the factory in 1999.
My question is about quality and authenticity.  Everything I have read indicates this is a quality brand, but this piano is a mess!  Noisy strings full of beats, hammers misaligned badly, and the regulation is a complete mess.  I could hardly tune it because the notes functioned so poorly, and I am planning to go back and do a full regulation.
Would going from China to New Mexico cause such a dramatic change?  Obviously when I do the regulation I will check for warped parts, loose bridge pins, etc.
I guess I would just like to know if this is a common occurrence in this brand, and if it is indeed an actual Heintzman.  The serial number stamped on the plate is 98040, which doesn't match up with the Pierce Atlas, or the serial numbers on the Heintzman web site.  The customer has lots of questions naturally, and I would like to be armed with more information!
Thanks!


------------------------------
Laura Wright, RPT
Ivory Keys Piano Service
Durango CO
------------------------------

------------------------------------------
Original Message:
Sent: 01-30-2018 15:25
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: Heintzman piano

Thanks for posting that picture John! So far I've only heard Heintzmans, never tuned one yet. Thus my experience has been only good so far, but was reading something from about 30 years ago saying that Heintzmans had an issue which made them extremely difficult to tune. Anyone know what it is, or if it still happens on new ones?
-------------------------
Reply:

Almost all of the old Heintzman uprights (and grands) had the upper terminations made with a very substantial agraffe "bridge" cast into the plate with holes drilled in it through which the strings passed. This was supposed to solidly connect the upper terminations with the plate, increasing tone and sustain as well as keeping a note's three strings in a predictable pattern. This system made re-stringing rather difficult and tended to cause the strings to hang up a bit when tuning, which could be overcome by using a "tapping" style of tuning. When Heintzman resumed piano making towards the end of their life in Canada they returned to using either standard agraffes or pressure bars as, from what I heard, they had trouble with foundries attempting to cast the old style plates at a reasonable cost. The agraffe bridge was (to my knowledge) never used in the Chinese made pianos.

When the old Heintzman factory was sold, apparently everything in the factory from the paint out was sold with it, including all the scale designs and construction drawings along with whatever parts and wood were left. Many of the Chinese made Heintzman pianos even sport the original decals under the top lid which makes them appear to be Canadian. I believe the same factory also produces two other names that were owned by Heintzman, Gerhard Heintzman and Nordheimer. Both had been well-known brands on their own before being absorbed by Heintzman and turned into second-line instruments. When the Heintzman factory was sold, Nordheimer was the oldest brand name in use in the Canadian music industry, having been registered in 1840!

Incidentally, Art Gieck (pictured with the Bell piano) also owns one of the earliest Heintzman uprights ever made, with a serial number in three digits. IIRC it is #250.

For more information on the venerable Heintzman Pianos, see: https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/heintzman-co-ltd-emc/

John


​

------------------------------
John Musselwhite, RPT
Calgary, AB Canada
www.musselwhite.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-30-2018 15:25
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: Heintzman piano

Thanks for posting that picture John! So far I've only heard Heintzmans, never tuned one yet. Thus my experience has been only good so far, but was reading something from about 30 years ago saying that Heintzmans had an issue which made them extremely difficult to tune. Anyone know what it is, or if it still happens on new ones?

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez
Professional Piano Services
(805)315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com
BenPianoPro@comcast.net

Original Message:
Sent: 01-30-2018 15:01
From: John Musselwhite
Subject: Heintzman piano

Hi...

Many of the Canadian pianos, including the old Heintzmans, were great pianos! Susan mentioned the "Bell" piano. Art Gieck, RPT just finished rebuilding and refinishing an old 4-pedal Bell including rebuilding the "celeste" system as well as replacing all the silk cords on the Illimitable Repeating Action. With the soundboard repair, new bridges and a set of Abel hammers this piano played like a dream and had that beautiful Bell tone quality in the high treble. I have a few other pictures, but this one (attached) is Art with the finished piano.

------------------------------
John Musselwhite, RPT
Calgary, AB Canada
www.musselwhite.com

Original Message:
Sent: 01-28-2018 23:04
From: Susan Kline
Subject: Heintzman piano

If someone in the U.S. wants a real Heintzman from their best years, a trip to Canada is almost certainly required. I've sometimes been tempted to go there and bring home a really good Bell upright, too, but it does seem a somewhat quiixotic thing to do.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon

Original Message:
Sent: 01-28-2018 21:58
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Heintzman piano

You asked about quality and authenticity. Regarding quality, Heintzman pianos, like many other pianos made in China, started out very bad and have been improving pretty consistently. I don't have a lot of experience of Heintzman pianos of that vintage, but I have been a Heintzman dealer for the last couple of years. New Heintzmans have their particular problems but they are probably on par with most other pianos coming out of China at this point. Green wood is still sometimes an issue, however.

Regarding authenticity, the history of Heintzman is somewhat complex. Heintzman is not a stencil piano, in that they own their own factory and make their own pianos. Like most old companies that have experienced bankruptcy, some parts of the heritage have stayed on and other parts have not. But certainly do not expect the same kind of quality that you would see in a Heintzman old upright or grand. If you are wanting more details about my experience or about their history I am happy to share more, either on- or off-list.

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com

Original Message:
Sent: 01-27-2018 10:42
From: Larry Fisher
Subject: Heintzman piano

Hi Laura.

Sounds like warped hammer shanks and so what about the keys?

Warpage on everything is probably a product of not drying the wood used prior to installing the parts in the piano.  Another thing to consider is whether or not the piano was in a flood.  You'd expect the strings to be rusty as ever is this were true and hammers have a tendency to bloom.

From the sounds of things, the Chinese factory in question cut labor costs and assembly time where ever they could.  If green wood was used the piano would continue to change for years after it was made  ....  I'd expect.  It's been twenty years or so since the piano was born according to one account.  Durango is a dry place typically.   Let's hope the piano is done changing and your efforts to regulate these "green wood" parts holds for a while.  Perhaps have the customer sign a waiver indicating the possibility that the piano may require repeated service for the same things more so than any other piano.

Go about your services on this piano with caution.  We're used to working on viable instruments in our trade.  This one may be that bag of worms that could ruin your day/week/month/career.

------------------------------
Larry Fisher
Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
Vancouver WA
360-256-2999

Original Message:
Sent: 01-26-2018 12:20
From: Laura Wright
Subject: Heintzman piano

Does anyone have any experience with the Heintzman grand piano made in China?  I have a customer who recently purchased one (used, one owner) ; the original owner said they bought it in China from the factory in 1999.
My question is about quality and authenticity.  Everything I have read indicates this is a quality brand, but this piano is a mess!  Noisy strings full of beats, hammers misaligned badly, and the regulation is a complete mess.  I could hardly tune it because the notes functioned so poorly, and I am planning to go back and do a full regulation.
Would going from China to New Mexico cause such a dramatic change?  Obviously when I do the regulation I will check for warped parts, loose bridge pins, etc.
I guess I would just like to know if this is a common occurrence in this brand, and if it is indeed an actual Heintzman.  The serial number stamped on the plate is 98040, which doesn't match up with the Pierce Atlas, or the serial numbers on the Heintzman web site.  The customer has lots of questions naturally, and I would like to be armed with more information!
Thanks!


------------------------------
Laura Wright, RPT
Ivory Keys Piano Service
Durango CO
------------------------------

A Nordheimer upright (bought as scrap from the Hamilton public schools) was my project piano during the first year at George Brown College. It was a superb instrument, from well before the time Heintzman took Nordheimer over.

Luckily Ted Sambell found Heintzman's old bass string looper, dismantled and broken in a corner of the factory, bought it, and put it back together. I believe it ended up at Banff, where I last saw it. I doubt the Chinese would have realized what a 19th century gem it is.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-31-2018 20:13
From: John Musselwhite
Subject: Heintzman piano

------------------------------------------
Original Message:
Sent: 01-30-2018 15:25
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: Heintzman piano

Thanks for posting that picture John! So far I've only heard Heintzmans, never tuned one yet. Thus my experience has been only good so far, but was reading something from about 30 years ago saying that Heintzmans had an issue which made them extremely difficult to tune. Anyone know what it is, or if it still happens on new ones?
-------------------------
Reply:

Almost all of the old Heintzman uprights (and grands) had the upper terminations made with a very substantial agraffe "bridge" cast into the plate with holes drilled in it through which the strings passed. This was supposed to solidly connect the upper terminations with the plate, increasing tone and sustain as well as keeping a note's three strings in a predictable pattern. This system made re-stringing rather difficult and tended to cause the strings to hang up a bit when tuning, which could be overcome by using a "tapping" style of tuning. When Heintzman resumed piano making towards the end of their life in Canada they returned to using either standard agraffes or pressure bars as, from what I heard, they had trouble with foundries attempting to cast the old style plates at a reasonable cost. The agraffe bridge was (to my knowledge) never used in the Chinese made pianos.

When the old Heintzman factory was sold, apparently everything in the factory from the paint out was sold with it, including all the scale designs and construction drawings along with whatever parts and wood were left. Many of the Chinese made Heintzman pianos even sport the original decals under the top lid which makes them appear to be Canadian. I believe the same factory also produces two other names that were owned by Heintzman, Gerhard Heintzman and Nordheimer. Both had been well-known brands on their own before being absorbed by Heintzman and turned into second-line instruments. When the Heintzman factory was sold, Nordheimer was the oldest brand name in use in the Canadian music industry, having been registered in 1840!

Incidentally, Art Gieck (pictured with the Bell piano) also owns one of the earliest Heintzman uprights ever made, with a serial number in three digits. IIRC it is #250.

For more information on the venerable Heintzman Pianos, see: https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/heintzman-co-ltd-emc/

John


​

------------------------------
John Musselwhite, RPT
Calgary, AB Canada
www.musselwhite.com

Original Message:
Sent: 01-30-2018 15:25
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: Heintzman piano

Thanks for posting that picture John! So far I've only heard Heintzmans, never tuned one yet. Thus my experience has been only good so far, but was reading something from about 30 years ago saying that Heintzmans had an issue which made them extremely difficult to tune. Anyone know what it is, or if it still happens on new ones?

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez
Professional Piano Services
(805)315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com
BenPianoPro@comcast.net

Original Message:
Sent: 01-30-2018 15:01
From: John Musselwhite
Subject: Heintzman piano

Hi...

Many of the Canadian pianos, including the old Heintzmans, were great pianos! Susan mentioned the "Bell" piano. Art Gieck, RPT just finished rebuilding and refinishing an old 4-pedal Bell including rebuilding the "celeste" system as well as replacing all the silk cords on the Illimitable Repeating Action. With the soundboard repair, new bridges and a set of Abel hammers this piano played like a dream and had that beautiful Bell tone quality in the high treble. I have a few other pictures, but this one (attached) is Art with the finished piano.

------------------------------
John Musselwhite, RPT
Calgary, AB Canada
www.musselwhite.com

Original Message:
Sent: 01-28-2018 23:04
From: Susan Kline
Subject: Heintzman piano

If someone in the U.S. wants a real Heintzman from their best years, a trip to Canada is almost certainly required. I've sometimes been tempted to go there and bring home a really good Bell upright, too, but it does seem a somewhat quiixotic thing to do.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon

Original Message:
Sent: 01-28-2018 21:58
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Heintzman piano

You asked about quality and authenticity. Regarding quality, Heintzman pianos, like many other pianos made in China, started out very bad and have been improving pretty consistently. I don't have a lot of experience of Heintzman pianos of that vintage, but I have been a Heintzman dealer for the last couple of years. New Heintzmans have their particular problems but they are probably on par with most other pianos coming out of China at this point. Green wood is still sometimes an issue, however.

Regarding authenticity, the history of Heintzman is somewhat complex. Heintzman is not a stencil piano, in that they own their own factory and make their own pianos. Like most old companies that have experienced bankruptcy, some parts of the heritage have stayed on and other parts have not. But certainly do not expect the same kind of quality that you would see in a Heintzman old upright or grand. If you are wanting more details about my experience or about their history I am happy to share more, either on- or off-list.

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com

Original Message:
Sent: 01-27-2018 10:42
From: Larry Fisher
Subject: Heintzman piano

Hi Laura.

Sounds like warped hammer shanks and so what about the keys?

Warpage on everything is probably a product of not drying the wood used prior to installing the parts in the piano.  Another thing to consider is whether or not the piano was in a flood.  You'd expect the strings to be rusty as ever is this were true and hammers have a tendency to bloom.

From the sounds of things, the Chinese factory in question cut labor costs and assembly time where ever they could.  If green wood was used the piano would continue to change for years after it was made  ....  I'd expect.  It's been twenty years or so since the piano was born according to one account.  Durango is a dry place typically.   Let's hope the piano is done changing and your efforts to regulate these "green wood" parts holds for a while.  Perhaps have the customer sign a waiver indicating the possibility that the piano may require repeated service for the same things more so than any other piano.

Go about your services on this piano with caution.  We're used to working on viable instruments in our trade.  This one may be that bag of worms that could ruin your day/week/month/career.

------------------------------
Larry Fisher
Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
Vancouver WA
360-256-2999

Original Message:
Sent: 01-26-2018 12:20
From: Laura Wright
Subject: Heintzman piano

Does anyone have any experience with the Heintzman grand piano made in China?  I have a customer who recently purchased one (used, one owner) ; the original owner said they bought it in China from the factory in 1999.
My question is about quality and authenticity.  Everything I have read indicates this is a quality brand, but this piano is a mess!  Noisy strings full of beats, hammers misaligned badly, and the regulation is a complete mess.  I could hardly tune it because the notes functioned so poorly, and I am planning to go back and do a full regulation.
Would going from China to New Mexico cause such a dramatic change?  Obviously when I do the regulation I will check for warped parts, loose bridge pins, etc.
I guess I would just like to know if this is a common occurrence in this brand, and if it is indeed an actual Heintzman.  The serial number stamped on the plate is 98040, which doesn't match up with the Pierce Atlas, or the serial numbers on the Heintzman web site.  The customer has lots of questions naturally, and I would like to be armed with more information!
Thanks!


------------------------------
Laura Wright, RPT
Ivory Keys Piano Service
Durango CO
------------------------------

I recently rebuilt a 5'4" Heintzman Grand piano. It was built in 1929. It had the worst soundboard and rib scale i ever saw. 29 probably not a good year eh!

The Z Delta parameter of the rib scale was atrocious and ill conceived. Below is a graph of the Z delta before and after. The design of the heintzman was sound, but the craftsmanship was lacking.
I could only imagine it getting worse if it is carbon copied in asia.
Oh well.
-chris
#caveman 



​

------------------------------
A hunter's drumbeat steers the stampeding herd,
His belly growls in hunger to what he sees.
The mammoth aware blows his mighty trumpet,
But alas, the caveman tickles the ivories.

chernobieffpiano.com
865-986-7720
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 02-02-2018 15:43
From: Susan Kline
Subject: Heintzman piano

A Nordheimer upright (bought as scrap from the Hamilton public schools) was my project piano during the first year at George Brown College. It was a superb instrument, from well before the time Heintzman took Nordheimer over.

Luckily Ted Sambell found Heintzman's old bass string looper, dismantled and broken in a corner of the factory, bought it, and put it back together. I believe it ended up at Banff, where I last saw it. I doubt the Chinese would have realized what a 19th century gem it is.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon

Original Message:
Sent: 01-31-2018 20:13
From: John Musselwhite
Subject: Heintzman piano

------------------------------------------
Original Message:
Sent: 01-30-2018 15:25
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: Heintzman piano

Thanks for posting that picture John! So far I've only heard Heintzmans, never tuned one yet. Thus my experience has been only good so far, but was reading something from about 30 years ago saying that Heintzmans had an issue which made them extremely difficult to tune. Anyone know what it is, or if it still happens on new ones?
-------------------------
Reply:

Almost all of the old Heintzman uprights (and grands) had the upper terminations made with a very substantial agraffe "bridge" cast into the plate with holes drilled in it through which the strings passed. This was supposed to solidly connect the upper terminations with the plate, increasing tone and sustain as well as keeping a note's three strings in a predictable pattern. This system made re-stringing rather difficult and tended to cause the strings to hang up a bit when tuning, which could be overcome by using a "tapping" style of tuning. When Heintzman resumed piano making towards the end of their life in Canada they returned to using either standard agraffes or pressure bars as, from what I heard, they had trouble with foundries attempting to cast the old style plates at a reasonable cost. The agraffe bridge was (to my knowledge) never used in the Chinese made pianos.

When the old Heintzman factory was sold, apparently everything in the factory from the paint out was sold with it, including all the scale designs and construction drawings along with whatever parts and wood were left. Many of the Chinese made Heintzman pianos even sport the original decals under the top lid which makes them appear to be Canadian. I believe the same factory also produces two other names that were owned by Heintzman, Gerhard Heintzman and Nordheimer. Both had been well-known brands on their own before being absorbed by Heintzman and turned into second-line instruments. When the Heintzman factory was sold, Nordheimer was the oldest brand name in use in the Canadian music industry, having been registered in 1840!

Incidentally, Art Gieck (pictured with the Bell piano) also owns one of the earliest Heintzman uprights ever made, with a serial number in three digits. IIRC it is #250.

For more information on the venerable Heintzman Pianos, see: https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/heintzman-co-ltd-emc/

John


​

------------------------------
John Musselwhite, RPT
Calgary, AB Canada
www.musselwhite.com

Original Message:
Sent: 01-30-2018 15:25
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: Heintzman piano

Thanks for posting that picture John! So far I've only heard Heintzmans, never tuned one yet. Thus my experience has been only good so far, but was reading something from about 30 years ago saying that Heintzmans had an issue which made them extremely difficult to tune. Anyone know what it is, or if it still happens on new ones?

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez
Professional Piano Services
(805)315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com
BenPianoPro@comcast.net

Original Message:
Sent: 01-30-2018 15:01
From: John Musselwhite
Subject: Heintzman piano

Hi...

Many of the Canadian pianos, including the old Heintzmans, were great pianos! Susan mentioned the "Bell" piano. Art Gieck, RPT just finished rebuilding and refinishing an old 4-pedal Bell including rebuilding the "celeste" system as well as replacing all the silk cords on the Illimitable Repeating Action. With the soundboard repair, new bridges and a set of Abel hammers this piano played like a dream and had that beautiful Bell tone quality in the high treble. I have a few other pictures, but this one (attached) is Art with the finished piano.

------------------------------
John Musselwhite, RPT
Calgary, AB Canada
www.musselwhite.com

Original Message:
Sent: 01-28-2018 23:04
From: Susan Kline
Subject: Heintzman piano

If someone in the U.S. wants a real Heintzman from their best years, a trip to Canada is almost certainly required. I've sometimes been tempted to go there and bring home a really good Bell upright, too, but it does seem a somewhat quiixotic thing to do.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon

Original Message:
Sent: 01-28-2018 21:58
From: Peter Stevenson
Subject: Heintzman piano

You asked about quality and authenticity. Regarding quality, Heintzman pianos, like many other pianos made in China, started out very bad and have been improving pretty consistently. I don't have a lot of experience of Heintzman pianos of that vintage, but I have been a Heintzman dealer for the last couple of years. New Heintzmans have their particular problems but they are probably on par with most other pianos coming out of China at this point. Green wood is still sometimes an issue, however.

Regarding authenticity, the history of Heintzman is somewhat complex. Heintzman is not a stencil piano, in that they own their own factory and make their own pianos. Like most old companies that have experienced bankruptcy, some parts of the heritage have stayed on and other parts have not. But certainly do not expect the same kind of quality that you would see in a Heintzman old upright or grand. If you are wanting more details about my experience or about their history I am happy to share more, either on- or off-list.

------------------------------
Peter Stevenson RPT
P.S. Piano Service
Prince George BC
250-562-5358
ps@pspianos.com

Original Message:
Sent: 01-27-2018 10:42
From: Larry Fisher
Subject: Heintzman piano

Hi Laura.

Sounds like warped hammer shanks and so what about the keys?

Warpage on everything is probably a product of not drying the wood used prior to installing the parts in the piano.  Another thing to consider is whether or not the piano was in a flood.  You'd expect the strings to be rusty as ever is this were true and hammers have a tendency to bloom.

From the sounds of things, the Chinese factory in question cut labor costs and assembly time where ever they could.  If green wood was used the piano would continue to change for years after it was made  ....  I'd expect.  It's been twenty years or so since the piano was born according to one account.  Durango is a dry place typically.   Let's hope the piano is done changing and your efforts to regulate these "green wood" parts holds for a while.  Perhaps have the customer sign a waiver indicating the possibility that the piano may require repeated service for the same things more so than any other piano.

Go about your services on this piano with caution.  We're used to working on viable instruments in our trade.  This one may be that bag of worms that could ruin your day/week/month/career.

------------------------------
Larry Fisher
Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
Vancouver WA
360-256-2999

Original Message:
Sent: 01-26-2018 12:20
From: Laura Wright
Subject: Heintzman piano

Does anyone have any experience with the Heintzman grand piano made in China?  I have a customer who recently purchased one (used, one owner) ; the original owner said they bought it in China from the factory in 1999.
My question is about quality and authenticity.  Everything I have read indicates this is a quality brand, but this piano is a mess!  Noisy strings full of beats, hammers misaligned badly, and the regulation is a complete mess.  I could hardly tune it because the notes functioned so poorly, and I am planning to go back and do a full regulation.
Would going from China to New Mexico cause such a dramatic change?  Obviously when I do the regulation I will check for warped parts, loose bridge pins, etc.
I guess I would just like to know if this is a common occurrence in this brand, and if it is indeed an actual Heintzman.  The serial number stamped on the plate is 98040, which doesn't match up with the Pierce Atlas, or the serial numbers on the Heintzman web site.  The customer has lots of questions naturally, and I would like to be armed with more information!
Thanks!


------------------------------
Laura Wright, RPT
Ivory Keys Piano Service
Durango CO
------------------------------