Pianotech

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Original Message------

Hi Tech String Looper (for Bosendorfer stringing in this case).  Wanted a new method after several different mounts over the years.  This proved very effective and kept my knuckles from dragging on the bench vise.  Not pictured, the small Visegrips used to grab the wire with my right hand and the wire spool (1/3 lb with brake) holding the wire taught with my left hand.  YMMV.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Original Message------

Timely! Just about to string an old Chickering - entire tenor section is single string.

Thanks, Nancy Salmon

            LaVale, MD

Virus-free. www.avg.com

Any suggestions on how to find the archives?

------------------------------
Terry Farrell
President
Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
Brandon, Florida
813-684-3505
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2017 14:37
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Wire looping jig

I really like the one that Nossman came up with. Its a hole going through a dowel length ways, with different  configurations on each end. One end for making a loop (no pliers needed), the other end for making the windings. The most precise jig I ever used. Makes doing the German loop easy too.

There's a picture, and better description of it, on this website in the archives.

Original Message------

Timely! Just about to string an old Chickering - entire tenor section is single string.

Thanks, Nancy Salmon

            LaVale, MD

Virus-free. www.avg.com

from the pianotech page of my.ptg.org type archive in the search box. When you get to the archive page select pianotech archives in the search categories on the lefthand side of the page. Type string looping tool in the search box and it's one of the first results. I've attached the pictures in case you don't want to read the thread.



If you give a person a fish, their microwave will smell bad for a day or so. If you teach a person to fish, They'll borrow your boat, drink all your whiskey and lie about the ones that got away.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2017 15:14
From: Terrence Farrell
Subject: Wire looping jig

Any suggestions on how to find the archives?

------------------------------
Terry Farrell
President
Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
Brandon, Florida
813-684-3505

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2017 14:37
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Wire looping jig

I really like the one that Nossman came up with. Its a hole going through a dowel length ways, with different  configurations on each end. One end for making a loop (no pliers needed), the other end for making the windings. The most precise jig I ever used. Makes doing the German loop easy too.

There's a picture, and better description of it, on this website in the archives.

Original Message------

Timely! Just about to string an old Chickering - entire tenor section is single string.

Thanks, Nancy Salmon

            LaVale, MD

Virus-free. www.avg.com

Original Message------

from the pianotech page of my.ptg.org type archive in the search box. When you get to the archive page select pianotech archives in the search categories on the lefthand side of the page. Type string looping tool in the search box and it's one of the first results. I've attached the pictures in case you don't want to read the thread.



If you give a person a fish, their microwave will smell bad for a day or so. If you teach a person to fish, They'll borrow your boat, drink all your whiskey and lie about the ones that got away.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL
------------------------------

Ron Overs makes a more elegant German Loop.




------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2017 17:11
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Wire looping jig

Here's a German loop.

Original Message------

from the pianotech page of my.ptg.org type archive in the search box. When you get to the archive page select pianotech archives in the search categories on the lefthand side of the page. Type string looping tool in the search box and it's one of the first results. I've attached the pictures in case you don't want to read the thread.



If you give a person a fish, their microwave will smell bad for a day or so. If you teach a person to fish, They'll borrow your boat, drink all your whiskey and lie about the ones that got away.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL
------------------------------

The double german loop may be more elegant but not necessary or practical for this. The double loop has the benefit of not cinching up against the hitch pin and can be nice if you want to remove the string, for some reason. They also raise the wire so if bearing is an issue then it will reduce it slightly. For the plain wire section of this and most pianos the double loop is unnecessary work and provides no benefit. For bass strings it does have the benefit of keeping the backscale more flexible when compared to more conventional bass string loops.  That can help pianos with short backscales. 

There are other jigs available as pictured in other posts. I have tried them all including the Nossaman jig.  Those jigs are fine for a single string replacement on site but I would not want to be handling a little dowel tool for some 200 strings. For on site single string replacements I simply use a round nose pliers and a small visegrips. For an entire piano I find this method easier, faster and produces a more consistent result with consistent loop size out of the jig requiring less tapping to cinch the loop. Less tapping leaves the tails in a more consistent position.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2017 20:48
From: Jon Page
Subject: Wire looping jig

Ron Overs makes a more elegant German Loop.




------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2017 17:11
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Wire looping jig

Here's a German loop.

Original Message------

from the pianotech page of my.ptg.org type archive in the search box. When you get to the archive page select pianotech archives in the search categories on the lefthand side of the page. Type string looping tool in the search box and it's one of the first results. I've attached the pictures in case you don't want to read the thread.



If you give a person a fish, their microwave will smell bad for a day or so. If you teach a person to fish, They'll borrow your boat, drink all your whiskey and lie about the ones that got away.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL
------------------------------

When I was taking the tuning course at George Brown College in Toronto, Ted Sambell had a lovely little jig for turning loops, somewhat similar to this one. It fit on a slat which was held by a wood vise. The difference is that he had the (slightly smaller) hook rotate. He used an old gramophone handle on the far side of the slat from the hook. If I remember right (it was almost 40 years ago), he mounted the hook in a ball-bearing set into the slat.

I used this jig a lot, as I restrung his 1920's Pleyel, which had single strings throughout, with both left-handed loops and right-handed loops. I got very adept.

He also showed me how to make a loop using two needle-nosed pliers, for field repairs. The main thing is to lay the coils very tightly next to each other. It's not too hard to do that by manipulating the angle of the short wire and taking your time.

Assuming all goes well with the Chickering rebuild, making loops will be easy for the rest of your life.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2017 12:57
From: Nancy Salmon
Subject: Wire looping jig

Timely! Just about to string an old Chickering - entire tenor section is single string.

Thanks, Nancy Salmon

            LaVale, MD

Virus-free. www.avg.com

Original Message------

Hi Tech String Looper (for Bosendorfer stringing in this case).  Wanted a new method after several different mounts over the years.  This proved very effective and kept my knuckles from dragging on the bench vise.  Not pictured, the small Visegrips used to grab the wire with my right hand and the wire spool (1/3 lb with brake) holding the wire taught with my left hand.  YMMV.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Now that I think back on it, Ted's jig didn't have a hook. It had a cylinder going through the ball bearing, with a short flat cut into it, and two pins (about the diameter of bridge pins) mounted in the flat. I would make the loop by pulling wire around a hitch pin (right-handed or left-handed depending on which piece of wire was on top), or sometimes around a balance rail pin mounted on a board, then I'd put the loop between the two pins in the jig, and the wire to make the coil would be right up against the end of the cylinder at right angles to the main wire. Then I'd turn the handle three or four rotations depending on how many I wanted to get, pull the rest of the short wire slightly toward to loop, and cut it off with the cutter almost touching the wide part of the loop so that the stub would be neat and uniform and angled slightly toward the loop. I have a photo of the Pleyel showing some of those loops. I'll try to scan it.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2017 23:09
From: Susan Kline
Subject: Wire looping jig

When I was taking the tuning course at George Brown College in Toronto, Ted Sambell had a lovely little jig for turning loops, somewhat similar to this one. It fit on a slat which was held by a wood vise. The difference is that he had the (slightly smaller) hook rotate. He used an old gramophone handle on the far side of the slat from the hook. If I remember right (it was almost 40 years ago), he mounted the hook in a ball-bearing set into the slat.

I used this jig a lot, as I restrung his 1920's Pleyel, which had single strings throughout, with both left-handed loops and right-handed loops. I got very adept.

He also showed me how to make a loop using two needle-nosed pliers, for field repairs. The main thing is to lay the coils very tightly next to each other. It's not too hard to do that by manipulating the angle of the short wire and taking your time.

Assuming all goes well with the Chickering rebuild, making loops will be easy for the rest of your life.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2017 12:57
From: Nancy Salmon
Subject: Wire looping jig

Timely! Just about to string an old Chickering - entire tenor section is single string.

Thanks, Nancy Salmon

            LaVale, MD

Virus-free. www.avg.com

Original Message------

Hi Tech String Looper (for Bosendorfer stringing in this case).  Wanted a new method after several different mounts over the years.  This proved very effective and kept my knuckles from dragging on the bench vise.  Not pictured, the small Visegrips used to grab the wire with my right hand and the wire spool (1/3 lb with brake) holding the wire taught with my left hand.  YMMV.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

David-
Considering that the Boesendorfer scale is closer than most to the breaking tension of the string, what would happen if the instrument had shared unisons bent around the hitchpin a la Steinway?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2017 19:46
From: David Love
Subject: Wire looping jig

Hi Tech String Looper (for Bosendorfer stringing in this case).  Wanted a new method after several different mounts over the years.  This proved very effective and kept my knuckles from dragging on the bench vise.  Not pictured, the small Visegrips used to grab the wire with my right hand and the wire spool (1/3 lb with brake) holding the wire taught with my left hand.  YMMV.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

I don't see that it would make a difference. BP% would not change by that nor by reducing the tension by dropping the wire gauge. The only way to reduce the BP% other than using a different type of wire perhaps, is to shorten the speaking length.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2017 21:17
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Wire looping jig

David-
Considering that the Boesendorfer scale is closer than most to the breaking tension of the string, what would happen if the instrument had shared unisons bent around the hitchpin a la Steinway?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2017 19:46
From: David Love
Subject: Wire looping jig

Hi Tech String Looper (for Bosendorfer stringing in this case).  Wanted a new method after several different mounts over the years.  This proved very effective and kept my knuckles from dragging on the bench vise.  Not pictured, the small Visegrips used to grab the wire with my right hand and the wire spool (1/3 lb with brake) holding the wire taught with my left hand.  YMMV.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

David-
I'm trying to understand the tension on the string at the back of the hitch pin.
With a single tie string, is  the tension about the same as the tension in the speaking length?
What about in a shared unison?
Clearly the force on the hitchpin itself is twice the tension in the single speakiing length.
But what is the tension on the string at the back of the hitchpin?
Is it also twice the tension of the speaking length, i.e. both sides added?
If so, is this the real reason for single tied strings in high tension scales, to reduce the chance of the strings breaking behind the hitchpins?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2017 22:57
From: David Love
Subject: Wire looping jig

I don't see that it would make a difference. BP% would not change by that nor by reducing the tension by dropping the wire gauge. The only way to reduce the BP% other than using a different type of wire perhaps, is to shorten the speaking length.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2017 21:17
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Wire looping jig

David-
Considering that the Boesendorfer scale is closer than most to the breaking tension of the string, what would happen if the instrument had shared unisons bent around the hitchpin a la Steinway?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2017 19:46
From: David Love
Subject: Wire looping jig

Hi Tech String Looper (for Bosendorfer stringing in this case).  Wanted a new method after several different mounts over the years.  This proved very effective and kept my knuckles from dragging on the bench vise.  Not pictured, the small Visegrips used to grab the wire with my right hand and the wire spool (1/3 lb with brake) holding the wire taught with my left hand.  YMMV.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Original Message------

David-
I'm trying to understand the tension on the string at the back of the hitch pin.
With a single tie string, is  the tension about the same as the tension in the speaking length?
What about in a shared unison?
Clearly the force on the hitchpin itself is twice the tension in the single speakiing length.
But what is the tension on the string at the back of the hitchpin?
Is it also twice the tension of the speaking length, i.e. both sides added?
If so, is this the real reason for single tied strings in high tension scales, to reduce the chance of the strings breaking behind the hitchpins?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

I see what you're asking.  If the string tension is 175 lbs, then the force acting on the plate will be twice the string tension, but the tension on the string is not the sum of both speaking lengths. It is still only 175 lbs. 

Imagine  that the coefficient of friction does not bind the string at the hitch pin. If you start increasing the tension on the string by turning one tuning pin, both sides will increase together until the full length of the string reaches 175 lbs. You will have two speaking lengths of 175 lbs but the overall string tension is still 175 lbs.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2017 08:21
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Wire looping jig

David-
I'm trying to understand the tension on the string at the back of the hitch pin.
With a single tie string, is  the tension about the same as the tension in the speaking length?
What about in a shared unison?
Clearly the force on the hitchpin itself is twice the tension in the single speakiing length.
But what is the tension on the string at the back of the hitchpin?
Is it also twice the tension of the speaking length, i.e. both sides added?
If so, is this the real reason for single tied strings in high tension scales, to reduce the chance of the strings breaking behind the hitchpins?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2017 22:57
From: David Love
Subject: Wire looping jig

I don't see that it would make a difference. BP% would not change by that nor by reducing the tension by dropping the wire gauge. The only way to reduce the BP% other than using a different type of wire perhaps, is to shorten the speaking length.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2017 21:17
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Wire looping jig

David-
Considering that the Boesendorfer scale is closer than most to the breaking tension of the string, what would happen if the instrument had shared unisons bent around the hitchpin a la Steinway?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2017 19:46
From: David Love
Subject: Wire looping jig

Hi Tech String Looper (for Bosendorfer stringing in this case).  Wanted a new method after several different mounts over the years.  This proved very effective and kept my knuckles from dragging on the bench vise.  Not pictured, the small Visegrips used to grab the wire with my right hand and the wire spool (1/3 lb with brake) holding the wire taught with my left hand.  YMMV.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Clear.
Thanks!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2017 18:08
From: David Love
Subject: Wire looping jig

I see what you're asking.  If the string tension is 175 lbs, then the force acting on the plate will be twice the string tension, but the tension on the string is not the sum of boh speaking lengths. It is still only 175 lbs.

Imagine  that the coefficient of friction does not bind the string at the hitch pin. If you start increasing the tension on the string by turning one tuning pin, both sides will increase together until the full length of the string reaches 175 lbs. You will have two speaking lengths of 175 lbs but the overall string tension is still 175 lbs.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2017 08:21
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Wire looping jig

David-
I'm trying to understand the tension on the string at the back of the hitch pin.
With a single tie string, is  the tension about the same as the tension in the speaking length?
What about in a shared unison?
Clearly the force on the hitchpin itself is twice the tension in the single speakiing length.
But what is the tension on the string at the back of the hitchpin?
Is it also twice the tension of the speaking length, i.e. both sides added?
If so, is this the real reason for single tied strings in high tension scales, to reduce the chance of the strings breaking behind the hitchpins?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2017 22:57
From: David Love
Subject: Wire looping jig

I don't see that it would make a difference. BP% would not change by that nor by reducing the tension by dropping the wire gauge. The only way to reduce the BP% other than using a different type of wire perhaps, is to shorten the speaking length.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2017 21:17
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Wire looping jig

David-
Considering that the Boesendorfer scale is closer than most to the breaking tension of the string, what would happen if the instrument had shared unisons bent around the hitchpin a la Steinway?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2017 19:46
From: David Love
Subject: Wire looping jig

Hi Tech String Looper (for Bosendorfer stringing in this case).  Wanted a new method after several different mounts over the years.  This proved very effective and kept my knuckles from dragging on the bench vise.  Not pictured, the small Visegrips used to grab the wire with my right hand and the wire spool (1/3 lb with brake) holding the wire taught with my left hand.  YMMV.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

BTW, nice loops, clean looking job.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2017 22:57
From: David Love
Subject: Wire looping jig

I don't see that it would make a difference. BP% would not change by that nor by reducing the tension by dropping the wire gauge. The only way to reduce the BP% other than using a different type of wire perhaps, is to shorten the speaking length.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2017 21:17
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Wire looping jig

David-
Considering that the Boesendorfer scale is closer than most to the breaking tension of the string, what would happen if the instrument had shared unisons bent around the hitchpin a la Steinway?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2017 19:46
From: David Love
Subject: Wire looping jig

Hi Tech String Looper (for Bosendorfer stringing in this case).  Wanted a new method after several different mounts over the years.  This proved very effective and kept my knuckles from dragging on the bench vise.  Not pictured, the small Visegrips used to grab the wire with my right hand and the wire spool (1/3 lb with brake) holding the wire taught with my left hand.  YMMV.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Original Message------

BTW, nice loops, clean looking job.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
------------------------------

Thanks, I was feeling hurt there for a minute.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2017 09:54
From: Jon Page
Subject: Wire looping jig

BTW, nice loops, clean looking job.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2017 22:57
From: David Love
Subject: Wire looping jig

I don't see that it would make a difference. BP% would not change by that nor by reducing the tension by dropping the wire gauge. The only way to reduce the BP% other than using a different type of wire perhaps, is to shorten the speaking length.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2017 21:17
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Wire looping jig

David-
Considering that the Boesendorfer scale is closer than most to the breaking tension of the string, what would happen if the instrument had shared unisons bent around the hitchpin a la Steinway?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2017 19:46
From: David Love
Subject: Wire looping jig

Hi Tech String Looper (for Bosendorfer stringing in this case).  Wanted a new method after several different mounts over the years.  This proved very effective and kept my knuckles from dragging on the bench vise.  Not pictured, the small Visegrips used to grab the wire with my right hand and the wire spool (1/3 lb with brake) holding the wire taught with my left hand.  YMMV.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------