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38-Watt Vertical Dampp-Chaser systems

  • 1.  38-Watt Vertical Dampp-Chaser systems

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-03-2017 23:32
    Hello all,

    Has anyone had enough experience with the new 38-watt vertical systems to notice how it compares with the 50-watt vertical systems? We don't have a very humid climate up in northern BC, but some households are in the 60%s RH for a couple months.

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    Peter Stevenson RPT
    P.S. Piano Service
    Prince George BC
    250-562-5358
    ps@pspianos.com
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  • 2.  RE: 38-Watt Vertical Dampp-Chaser systems

    Posted 08-04-2017 08:09
    The entire rest of the world gets only the 38W dehumidifiers in vertical Systems. We get exactly zero requests for higher powered dehumidifiers. Keep in mind that the 38W and the 50W both reach the same temperature. Since one is longer, which gives it more surface area, it will simply raise the temperature more quickly. Depending on the climate, that may or may not be important.

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    Charles Rempel
    Dampp-Chaser Corporation
    Hendersonville NC
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  • 3.  RE: 38-Watt Vertical Dampp-Chaser systems

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-04-2017 08:22
    Charles, your thermodynamic analysis is flawed; you might want to check with your engineers on this.  Briefly, the important number is not the temperature of the dehumidifier, it's the amount of heat transferred from the dehumidifier to the piano.  The 38W dehumidifier, at the same temperature as the 50W but 24% shorter, will transfer 24% less heat.  The performance difference is real, and Peter's question is legitimate and deserving of a real answer.

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    Michael Spalding RPT
    Fredonia WI
    262-692-3943
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  • 4.  RE: 38-Watt Vertical Dampp-Chaser systems

    Posted 08-04-2017 08:45
    I don't think my nonreal answer is flawed in the slightest. Don't forget that the entire operation is overseen by a Humidistat. It is not operating in the vacuum of space. Dehumidifier rods of any wattage are (hopefully) all controlled by a Humidstat which turns them off when the set point is reached. As long as the Dehumidifier is capable of raising the temperature/lowering the RH enough to achieve the set point the result will be the same. The only difference will be the time it takes to get there.


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    Charles Rempel
    Dampp-Chaser Corporation
    Hendersonville NC
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  • 5.  RE: 38-Watt Vertical Dampp-Chaser systems

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-04-2017 09:32
    So Peter's original question was whether the 38W dehumidifier would be adequate in a 60% RH ambient.  In other words (actually, your words), would it have enough power to reach the humidistat setpoint?  Valid question.  Or, put another way, would it take so long to reach the setpoint as to degrade the system's ability to control the humidity?  Compared in this way, the 50W would outperform the 38W.  Peter wants to know if this would be a concern at 60% RH.  Can you answer his question?

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    Michael Spalding RPT
    Fredonia WI
    262-692-3943
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  • 6.  RE: 38-Watt Vertical Dampp-Chaser systems

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-04-2017 09:45
    I'd like to ask the question slightly differently.
    With a 38 watt rod installed, how high can the room ambient RH be and still bring the RH inside the piano to the desired point?
    Same question for the 50 watt rod.
    Thanks Charle

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    Jerry Cohen, RPT
    NJ Chapter
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  • 7.  RE: 38-Watt Vertical Dampp-Chaser systems

    Posted 08-04-2017 10:27
    I would suggest to let experience be your guide. In certral NC I prefer to have close to give or take 100 watts of heat distributed under 6' pianos. Adapt according to size and environmental influences.
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    Garret Traylor
    Trinity NC
    336-887-4266


  • 8.  RE: 38-Watt Vertical Dampp-Chaser systems

    Posted 08-04-2017 10:32
    Michael, I am just trying to help with a real world answer to Peter's question. I am sorry if I said something to upset you. I am not trying to be confrontational, just trying to help.
    Lowering the RH in a piano by 15% (60-45) requires a specific increase in temperature using the principle of raising temperature lowers relative humidity. Assuming a temperature of 70° F (21C) and 60% RH, we have a dew point of 55°F. If the dew point stays the same (no major weather shift) you would need to raise the temperature 9°F to lower the RH to 45%. Since both the 38W and 50W reach about 140°F, yes, both rods can achieve this. Will the 50W rod get there faster as Michael suggests? Absolutely. But they will both be able to accomplish the same goal. The questions then becomes, will the 38W be struggling so much that it allow the piano to be outside of the optimal zone for long enough periods of time that is will affect the tuning stability among other things? I don't think so, but there are enough variables that I can't possible know that I wouldn't want to say for sure. If it were me, I would probably think it was worth my time to experiment. Anecdotal advice from technicians in other areas of the continent is fine and of some use, but knowing your own market is paramount.

    We have 2 different vertical pianos in our test lab right now. They are about the same height, but the interior volume in one of them is much smaller than the other, as well as the smaller one has a lid that has much smaller gaps around it. Both pianos are controlled nicely by the PLSS, but the smaller one has much shorter cycle times. The high to low range is the same, it's just the cycle time that is different. 20 minutes or so for the skinny piano and about 35-40 for the fat one. 55-60% RH ambient.

    Jerry's question is "With a 38 watt rod installed, how high can the room ambient RH be and still bring the RH inside the piano to the desired point?"    Not that simple to answer I'm afraid. Dew point has a lot to do with it as well, never mind the specific piano as well. I would rather we looked at the 50W rods as being faster. Ultimately, would a 38W Dehumidifier fall short of the performance capabilities of a 50? Yes, of course. Sometimes, even 50W in a vertical isn't enough.

    I suggest doing a little experimenting in your own market so that you have first hand knowledge. Become the expert. All the theory in the world doesn't count for anything. How is the piano doing/


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    Charles Rempel
    Dampp-Chaser Corporation
    Hendersonville NC
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  • 9.  RE: 38-Watt Vertical Dampp-Chaser systems

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-04-2017 11:44
    Charles, I'm not upset, nor am I trying to be confrontational.  I apologize if I gave that impression. 

    But in reading Peter's question and your replies, I felt that his need was not being addressed, perhaps because you did not understand what he wanted to know, or because you and DamppChaser have not developed the data to be able to answer.  I attempted to act as an intermediary to clarify Peter's question and steer you towards a useful answer.  Perhaps I was a little heavy-handed - again, I apologize.

    The second and third paragraphs of your most recent post provide the answer that I think Peter was looking for, and one that will be useful to many others on the list.  Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

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    Michael Spalding RPT
    Fredonia WI
    262-692-3943
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  • 10.  RE: 38-Watt Vertical Dampp-Chaser systems

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-04-2017 12:31
    There are many factors involved, including the presence or absence of a grand undercover or a floor length piano cover, the patterns of air movement in the room and through the piano, the range of relative humidity in the room, and the switch point in the humidistat, which can vary from unit to unit.  I have been deploying data loggers, mounted with the sensor at the top of the DC humidistat, and have found that even with the enclosed case of a vertical piano, a 48 inch rod is sometimes not enough to get the humidistat cycling during our summer period of high indoor humidity, even with no water in the tank.  It will certainly bring the relative humidity low enough that I am not worried about damage to the piano, though if I was committed to keeping pitch levels rock solid over the summer, I might be inclined to add a second rod.

    I haven't done a study of pitch variation between two identical pianos in the same part of the building, one with one rod and one with two.  That would be an interesting experiment.

    In summary, I seriously doubt the integrity of the piano is in question with a 38 inch rod.  If I want to know more than that, I can monitor the pitch of the piano, and can use a data logger to find out exactly what is happening.  I know for certain that a grand piano in one of the churches I service had a system with only one dehumidifier bar, and the seasonal pitch change was dramatic.  Adding the 24 inch bar at the tail made a significant difference.

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    Floyd Gadd
    Regina SK
    306-502-9103
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  • 11.  RE: 38-Watt Vertical Dampp-Chaser systems

    Member
    Posted 08-04-2017 19:16
    this is an interesting discussion and I agree that there is no easy answer. I have seen some very underpowered systems in grands that should have had more wattage and even additional dehumidifier rods due to the size of the piano and environment they are in.     in many cases the client is a church that does not like high electric bills so they shut down the ac from sunday to Saturday and ramp up the ac. that deep cycling is not so good for the piano or anything else. the temp and rh goes sky high and the dew point increases as well. alter I placed a data logger in a local church with a c7 they became believers when they saw the data logger graphs. I also like using the undercover on grand installs. if you have short periods of high humidity in a vertical a 38 is probably fine.  I have to check my records but I think I have gone with higher watts in verticals given the extreme conditions we have most of the year. I have put full systems in a Baldwin Hamilton used in a choir practice room and a Kimball console in a small chapel that was the original church. until the full systems where installed both pianos had major key sticking, slow hammers and needed key easing.     the              Yamaha in the main sanctuary had constant problems until a humidistat and dehumidifier was put in.            I also installed many systems with wet-humidistats (no longer sold) which had a different set/trigger point. there are many pianos here  that have the heater bars with no humidistat. I discourage the owner and explain it is like leaving an iron or lamp on 24 x 7 . we then talk about doing an upgrade. if the cord is frayed I cut it and tell the client it is dangerous to plug in. some of the full systems are in sad condition. I removed one off an S & S and it was full of mold and had black stuff in the fill tube as well as pads so stiff they snapped









    i

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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  • 12.  RE: 38-Watt Vertical Dampp-Chaser systems

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-08-2017 09:30
    Peter,

    My experience has been that it is actually more important in the entire scheme of things to make sure that you are able to keep the humidity level up in the target zone in the dry season.

    It would actually be more beneficial for the rod to operate LONGER at slightly less power in most cases, and I would consider 60% max to be easily managed by the 38w unit (in most cases).

    The exception to that would be an EXTREMELY unstable instrument (by design) such as a small Wurlitzer spinet or something similar. I would probably add another unit (24") to augment the primary (after a period of observation though).

    If you were talking 75%-85% or thereabouts then you would be upping the power as needed. 

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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