David Porritt's reply on the Key Pin Size thread begs the old question of leather vs. cloth for key bushings. I experimented with leather for some practice room grands at IC. There was no doubt that the leather lasted longer by at least a year or two. The practice room grands are heavily used thus the need to replace the bushings with more frequency. We were lucky to get 3 years with cloth. The leather lasted 4-5 years.That may not seem significant to some but in an institution with heavily used pianos it makes a difference in time and money.

I have seen leather bushings in pianos that lasted many years and even for decades. Around the time I experimented at IC I also installed leather in pianos belonging to a couple of customers. They are still holding up. The problem was getting quality leather for this purpose after the good leather was used up. Has anyone experimented with leather recently and did you find a good source?
------------------------------
[Don] [McKechnie,] [RPT]
[Piano Technician]
[dmckech@ithaca.edu]
[Home 607.277.7112]
------------------------------

Don -

Thanks for the reminder -  Pianotek has Ecsaine in two thickness - one for backchecks; the other that could be used for keybushing or knuckles - .050".  I'm about to do a set of balance rail bushings.  I'll see if the thickness would work... I could try (Spurlock's?) method of reducing thickness with a drillpress drum sander.  I can send you some pieces if you want to try it

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2015 10:53
From: Donald McKechnie
Subject: leather vs. cloth key bushing

David Porritt's reply on the Key Pin Size thread begs the old question of leather vs. cloth for key bushings. I experimented with leather for some practice room grands at IC. There was no doubt that the leather lasted longer by at least a year or two. The practice room grands are heavily used thus the need to replace the bushings with more frequency. We were lucky to get 3 years with cloth. The leather lasted 4-5 years.That may not seem significant to some but in an institution with heavily used pianos it makes a difference in time and money.

I have seen leather bushings in pianos that lasted many years and even for decades. Around the time I experimented at IC I also installed leather in pianos belonging to a couple of customers. They are still holding up. The problem was getting quality leather for this purpose after the good leather was used up. Has anyone experimented with leather recently and did you find a good source?
------------------------------
[Don] [McKechnie,] [RPT]
[Piano Technician]
[dmckech@ithaca.edu]
[Home 607.277.7112]
------------------------------

David Porritt's reply on the Key Pin Size thread begs the old question of leather vs. cloth for key bushings. I experimented with leather for some practice room grands at IC. There was no doubt that the leather lasted longer by at least a year or two. The practice room grands are heavily used thus the need to replace the bushings with more frequency. We were lucky to get 3 years with cloth. The leather lasted 4-5 years.That may not seem significant to some but in an institution with heavily used pianos it makes a difference in time and money.

I have seen leather bushings in pianos that lasted many years and even for decades. Around the time I experimented at IC I also installed leather in pianos belonging to a couple of customers. They are still holding up. The problem was getting quality leather for this purpose after the good leather was used up. Has anyone experimented with leather recently and did you find a good source?
------------------------------
[Don] [McKechnie,] [RPT]
[Piano Technician]
[dmckech@ithaca.edu]
[Home 607.277.7112]
------------------------------

Leather could be a possibility .....  but has anyone had time to observe how much better longevity the new super slick WN& Gross anodized front rail pins make? I only have one piano that I'm aware of that has these pins, and she's a retired piano professor who doesn't play enough to even begin to use as an example. I want to begin installing some of these in pianos here at Tech, but other pressures and deadlines... well, you know...    Kevin

------------------------------
Kevin Fortenberry
Registered Piano Technician
Lubbock TX
806-778-3962
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2015 10:53
From: Donald McKechnie
Subject: leather vs. cloth key bushing

David Porritt's reply on the Key Pin Size thread begs the old question of leather vs. cloth for key bushings. I experimented with leather for some practice room grands at IC. There was no doubt that the leather lasted longer by at least a year or two. The practice room grands are heavily used thus the need to replace the bushings with more frequency. We were lucky to get 3 years with cloth. The leather lasted 4-5 years.That may not seem significant to some but in an institution with heavily used pianos it makes a difference in time and money.

I have seen leather bushings in pianos that lasted many years and even for decades. Around the time I experimented at IC I also installed leather in pianos belonging to a couple of customers. They are still holding up. The problem was getting quality leather for this purpose after the good leather was used up. Has anyone experimented with leather recently and did you find a good source?
------------------------------
[Don] [McKechnie,] [RPT]
[Piano Technician]
[dmckech@ithaca.edu]
[Home 607.277.7112]
------------------------------

But in case anyone is interested, and because the question was asked, my business Piano Forte Supply carries key bushing leather in eight thicknesses.  Forget your drum on the drill press.  The strips are conveniently 9 mm wide. The leather is fairly firm calf skin, which is the classic leather used back when.

------------------------------
Jurgen Goering
------------------------------

I prefer felted wool cloth (to be precise about describing it <G>) for a few reasons.

First, I have found that since I started doing serious lubrication, it holds up very well, indeed. By that I mean that when I re-bush, I brush a liberal amount of powdered teflon on one surface and rub it in with my finger. I also check all key pins for anything not perfectly smooth (replace what needs replacement) and then coat the surfaces the bushings will touch with McLube.

After five years or so, the keys are beginning to get a little clattery, but it is mostly compression. So a quick application of steam followed by a heated caul brings them back to original dimension. At the same time, I again apply teflon and Mclube (I use a folded pipe cleaner). I have 90+ pianos, some of which get very heavy use. I do very little re-bushing at this point. I'd say the worst cases need new felt in 10 - 15 years. Granted, our piano students aren't all trying to wow the world with Rach III and breaking strings right and left, but they practice hard and practice a lot.

BTW, I also do this protocol to all new pianos, within a few months of purchase, i.e. apply teflon and McLube and iron the bushings to size them. I also apply teflon powder to the wippen cushion felt and the damper lever felts. Raw wool tends to be pretty abrasive, whether it is the fibers themselves or some foreign substance. And if it is lubricated, it doesn't seem to compress as fast.

So while I have read about use of leather, with interest, I haven't seen the need to experiment. 

------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
http://www.artoftuning.com
"We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2015 14:22
From: Kevin Fortenberry
Subject: leather vs. cloth key bushing

Leather could be a possibility .....  but has anyone had time to observe how much better longevity the new super slick WN& Gross anodized front rail pins make? I only have one piano that I'm aware of that has these pins, and she's a retired piano professor who doesn't play enough to even begin to use as an example. I want to begin installing some of these in pianos here at Tech, but other pressures and deadlines... well, you know...    Kevin

------------------------------
Kevin Fortenberry
Registered Piano Technician
Lubbock TX
806-778-3962
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2015 10:53
From: Donald McKechnie
Subject: leather vs. cloth key bushing

David Porritt's reply on the Key Pin Size thread begs the old question of leather vs. cloth for key bushings. I experimented with leather for some practice room grands at IC. There was no doubt that the leather lasted longer by at least a year or two. The practice room grands are heavily used thus the need to replace the bushings with more frequency. We were lucky to get 3 years with cloth. The leather lasted 4-5 years.That may not seem significant to some but in an institution with heavily used pianos it makes a difference in time and money.

I have seen leather bushings in pianos that lasted many years and even for decades. Around the time I experimented at IC I also installed leather in pianos belonging to a couple of customers. They are still holding up. The problem was getting quality leather for this purpose after the good leather was used up. Has anyone experimented with leather recently and did you find a good source?
------------------------------
[Don] [McKechnie,] [RPT]
[Piano Technician]
[dmckech@ithaca.edu]
[Home 607.277.7112]
------------------------------

I have been following Fred's protocol for cloth bushings in recent years and have been pleased with the results. However, I still believe that leather is a viable alternative to cloth if the right quality can be found. It's like my quest to find the perfect leather for harpsichord quills. Dammed near impossible!

It has been too long since my leather key bushing trials and I cannot remember where I purchased the good leather. It may have been Pianotek or Renner. It already was the proper thickness for most pianos I worked on so I did not need to size. I tried some leather from a company here in New York State but it needed to be sized. (I don't remember the name but it was the company that used to supply Steinway.) Maybe someone out there has a good method for drum sanding leather. I tired but never succeeded in getting good results. The strips always were inconsistent in thickness. Slicing seems to be a better way to go but I could come up with a method I liked. Same problem with inconsistencies in thickness. It was time to cut my losses and go back to cloth!

------------------------------
[Don] [McKechnie,] [RPT]
[Piano Technician]
[dmckech@ithaca.edu]
[Home 607.277.7112]
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2015 14:57
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: leather vs. cloth key bushing

I prefer felted wool cloth (to be precise about describing it <G>) for a few reasons.

First, I have found that since I started doing serious lubrication, it holds up very well, indeed. By that I mean that when I re-bush, I brush a liberal amount of powdered teflon on one surface and rub it in with my finger. I also check all key pins for anything not perfectly smooth (replace what needs replacement) and then coat the surfaces the bushings will touch with McLube.

After five years or so, the keys are beginning to get a little clattery, but it is mostly compression. So a quick application of steam followed by a heated caul brings them back to original dimension. At the same time, I again apply teflon and Mclube (I use a folded pipe cleaner). I have 90+ pianos, some of which get very heavy use. I do very little re-bushing at this point. I'd say the worst cases need new felt in 10 - 15 years. Granted, our piano students aren't all trying to wow the world with Rach III and breaking strings right and left, but they practice hard and practice a lot.

BTW, I also do this protocol to all new pianos, within a few months of purchase, i.e. apply teflon and McLube and iron the bushings to size them. I also apply teflon powder to the wippen cushion felt and the damper lever felts. Raw wool tends to be pretty abrasive, whether it is the fibers themselves or some foreign substance. And if it is lubricated, it doesn't seem to compress as fast.

So while I have read about use of leather, with interest, I haven't seen the need to experiment. 

------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
http://www.artoftuning.com
"We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2015 14:22
From: Kevin Fortenberry
Subject: leather vs. cloth key bushing

Leather could be a possibility .....  but has anyone had time to observe how much better longevity the new super slick WN& Gross anodized front rail pins make? I only have one piano that I'm aware of that has these pins, and she's a retired piano professor who doesn't play enough to even begin to use as an example. I want to begin installing some of these in pianos here at Tech, but other pressures and deadlines... well, you know...    Kevin

------------------------------
Kevin Fortenberry
Registered Piano Technician
Lubbock TX
806-778-3962
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2015 10:53
From: Donald McKechnie
Subject: leather vs. cloth key bushing

David Porritt's reply on the Key Pin Size thread begs the old question of leather vs. cloth for key bushings. I experimented with leather for some practice room grands at IC. There was no doubt that the leather lasted longer by at least a year or two. The practice room grands are heavily used thus the need to replace the bushings with more frequency. We were lucky to get 3 years with cloth. The leather lasted 4-5 years.That may not seem significant to some but in an institution with heavily used pianos it makes a difference in time and money.

I have seen leather bushings in pianos that lasted many years and even for decades. Around the time I experimented at IC I also installed leather in pianos belonging to a couple of customers. They are still holding up. The problem was getting quality leather for this purpose after the good leather was used up. Has anyone experimented with leather recently and did you find a good source?
------------------------------
[Don] [McKechnie,] [RPT]
[Piano Technician]
[dmckech@ithaca.edu]
[Home 607.277.7112]
------------------------------

I have been following Fred's protocol for cloth bushings in recent years and have been pleased with the results. However, I still believe that leather is a viable alternative to cloth if the right quality can be found. It's like my quest to find the perfect leather for harpsichord quills. Dammed near impossible!

It has been too long since my leather key bushing trials and I cannot remember where I purchased the good leather. It may have been Pianotek or Renner. It already was the proper thickness for most pianos I worked on so I did not need to size. I tried some leather from a company here in New York State but it needed to be sized. (I don't remember the name but it was the company that used to supply Steinway.) Maybe someone out there has a good method for drum sanding leather. I tired but never succeeded in getting good results. The strips always were inconsistent in thickness. Slicing seems to be a better way to go but I could come up with a method I liked. Same problem with inconsistencies in thickness. It was time to cut my losses and go back to cloth!

------------------------------
[Don] [McKechnie,] [RPT]
[Piano Technician]
[dmckech@ithaca.edu]
[Home 607.277.7112]
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2015 14:57
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: leather vs. cloth key bushing

I prefer felted wool cloth (to be precise about describing it <G>) for a few reasons.

First, I have found that since I started doing serious lubrication, it holds up very well, indeed. By that I mean that when I re-bush, I brush a liberal amount of powdered teflon on one surface and rub it in with my finger. I also check all key pins for anything not perfectly smooth (replace what needs replacement) and then coat the surfaces the bushings will touch with McLube.

After five years or so, the keys are beginning to get a little clattery, but it is mostly compression. So a quick application of steam followed by a heated caul brings them back to original dimension. At the same time, I again apply teflon and Mclube (I use a folded pipe cleaner). I have 90+ pianos, some of which get very heavy use. I do very little re-bushing at this point. I'd say the worst cases need new felt in 10 - 15 years. Granted, our piano students aren't all trying to wow the world with Rach III and breaking strings right and left, but they practice hard and practice a lot.

BTW, I also do this protocol to all new pianos, within a few months of purchase, i.e. apply teflon and McLube and iron the bushings to size them. I also apply teflon powder to the wippen cushion felt and the damper lever felts. Raw wool tends to be pretty abrasive, whether it is the fibers themselves or some foreign substance. And if it is lubricated, it doesn't seem to compress as fast.

So while I have read about use of leather, with interest, I haven't seen the need to experiment. 

------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
http://www.artoftuning.com
"We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2015 14:22
From: Kevin Fortenberry
Subject: leather vs. cloth key bushing

Leather could be a possibility .....  but has anyone had time to observe how much better longevity the new super slick WN& Gross anodized front rail pins make? I only have one piano that I'm aware of that has these pins, and she's a retired piano professor who doesn't play enough to even begin to use as an example. I want to begin installing some of these in pianos here at Tech, but other pressures and deadlines... well, you know...    Kevin

------------------------------
Kevin Fortenberry
Registered Piano Technician
Lubbock TX
806-778-3962
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2015 10:53
From: Donald McKechnie
Subject: leather vs. cloth key bushing

David Porritt's reply on the Key Pin Size thread begs the old question of leather vs. cloth for key bushings. I experimented with leather for some practice room grands at IC. There was no doubt that the leather lasted longer by at least a year or two. The practice room grands are heavily used thus the need to replace the bushings with more frequency. We were lucky to get 3 years with cloth. The leather lasted 4-5 years.That may not seem significant to some but in an institution with heavily used pianos it makes a difference in time and money.

I have seen leather bushings in pianos that lasted many years and even for decades. Around the time I experimented at IC I also installed leather in pianos belonging to a couple of customers. They are still holding up. The problem was getting quality leather for this purpose after the good leather was used up. Has anyone experimented with leather recently and did you find a good source?
------------------------------
[Don] [McKechnie,] [RPT]
[Piano Technician]
[dmckech@ithaca.edu]
[Home 607.277.7112]
------------------------------

Ron,

Wow, certainly a lot of interesting devices available! Now that I know Jurgen sells a number of thicknesses I will give his product a try first.

Thanks,

Don

------------------------------
[Don] [McKechnie,] [RPT]
[Piano Technician]
[dmckech@ithaca.edu]
[Home 607.277.7112]
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2015 11:17
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: leather vs. cloth key bushing

Don,
Google leather splitter. That's how the whip makers thickness their
stock accurately.
Ron N

Only $300? I dunno, I like the one from Weaver better, retail $2900, but what a machine! Hard to beat it just for the joy of playing with toys. They have a great video of their machine, that weighs in at 150 lbs. 

I guess one could make friends with a serious leather worker ;-)

------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
http://www.artoftuning.com
"We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2015 16:14
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: leather vs. cloth key bushing

That's the smart way to go. You have to expect to use a whole lot of
leather to buy a $300 splitter. But then, what a great toy!
Ron N

I was hoping to find someone who had the top of the line model of leather splitter, so I could go over to his house (shop) and play. Not sure what toys I have that would have the same cachet. I do have a planer/joiner, not really as cool, but maybe to someone who works with leather and not wood. ;-)

The difference between that and the cheap Tandy model is a bit noticeable, though. It is always interesting to see the cheap knock offs compared with the real thing. So that's how come Jurgen can get those precise, incremental sizes. He has a friend who has a friend who has the right machine. 

I don't think a splitter would work very well with ecsaine.

------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
http://www.artoftuning.com
"We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2015 18:50
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: leather vs. cloth key bushing

Well, gee, I was being conservative. But when that refrigerator sized
platinum meteorite soft lands in the back yard, I'll buy one with the
chrome and big fins. Hydraulic suspension, all the bling, with a built
in recliner seat. Yes, you may touch it.
Ron N

I have one very similar to the Tandy model.  I think I paid $200 for it on ebay.  It works just fine.  I also have an antique one that looks similar, but better made and the adjustment mechanism is nicer and more precise....just haven't got around to tuning it up yet. You don't need to spend thousands to get extremely accurate results.  Traditional bark tanned leather skives and cuts very nice and clean.

------------------------------
Jason Leininger
Pittsburgh PA
412-874-6992
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2015 19:26
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: leather vs. cloth key bushing

I was hoping to find someone who had the top of the line model of leather splitter, so I could go over to his house (shop) and play. Not sure what toys I have that would have the same cachet. I do have a planer/joiner, not really as cool, but maybe to someone who works with leather and not wood. ;-)

The difference between that and the cheap Tandy model is a bit noticeable, though. It is always interesting to see the cheap knock offs compared with the real thing. So that's how come Jurgen can get those precise, incremental sizes. He has a friend who has a friend who has the right machine. 

I don't think a splitter would work very well with ecsaine.

------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
http://www.artoftuning.com
"We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2015 18:50
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: leather vs. cloth key bushing

Well, gee, I was being conservative. But when that refrigerator sized
platinum meteorite soft lands in the back yard, I'll buy one with the
chrome and big fins. Hydraulic suspension, all the bling, with a built
in recliner seat. Yes, you may touch it.
Ron N

How often does it get used, and what for?  if it's not rude to ask.

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2015 21:37
From: Jason Leininger
Subject: leather vs. cloth key bushing

I have one very similar to the Tandy model.  I think I paid $200 for it on ebay.  It works just fine.  I also have an antique one that looks similar, but better made and the adjustment mechanism is nicer and more precise....just haven't got around to tuning it up yet. You don't need to spend thousands to get extremely accurate results.  Traditional bark tanned leather skives and cuts very nice and clean.

------------------------------
Jason Leininger
Pittsburgh PA
412-874-6992
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2015 19:26
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: leather vs. cloth key bushing

I was hoping to find someone who had the top of the line model of leather splitter, so I could go over to his house (shop) and play. Not sure what toys I have that would have the same cachet. I do have a planer/joiner, not really as cool, but maybe to someone who works with leather and not wood. ;-)

The difference between that and the cheap Tandy model is a bit noticeable, though. It is always interesting to see the cheap knock offs compared with the real thing. So that's how come Jurgen can get those precise, incremental sizes. He has a friend who has a friend who has the right machine. 

I don't think a splitter would work very well with ecsaine.

------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
http://www.artoftuning.com
"We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2015 18:50
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: leather vs. cloth key bushing

Well, gee, I was being conservative. But when that refrigerator sized
platinum meteorite soft lands in the back yard, I'll buy one with the
chrome and big fins. Hydraulic suspension, all the bling, with a built
in recliner seat. Yes, you may touch it.
Ron N

I use it for restoration work on antique pianos. It's excellent for making hammer hinges, check leathers, skiving the ends of hammer coverings etc... Also I do a fair amount of leather work.  

------------------------------
Jason Leininger
Pittsburgh PA
412-874-6992
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 08-23-2015 00:47
From: David Skolnik
Subject: leather vs. cloth key bushing

How often does it get used, and what for?  if it's not rude to ask.

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2015 21:37
From: Jason Leininger
Subject: leather vs. cloth key bushing

I have one very similar to the Tandy model.  I think I paid $200 for it on ebay.  It works just fine.  I also have an antique one that looks similar, but better made and the adjustment mechanism is nicer and more precise....just haven't got around to tuning it up yet. You don't need to spend thousands to get extremely accurate results.  Traditional bark tanned leather skives and cuts very nice and clean.

------------------------------
Jason Leininger
Pittsburgh PA
412-874-6992
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2015 19:26
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: leather vs. cloth key bushing

I was hoping to find someone who had the top of the line model of leather splitter, so I could go over to his house (shop) and play. Not sure what toys I have that would have the same cachet. I do have a planer/joiner, not really as cool, but maybe to someone who works with leather and not wood. ;-)

The difference between that and the cheap Tandy model is a bit noticeable, though. It is always interesting to see the cheap knock offs compared with the real thing. So that's how come Jurgen can get those precise, incremental sizes. He has a friend who has a friend who has the right machine. 

I don't think a splitter would work very well with ecsaine.

------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
http://www.artoftuning.com
"We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2015 18:50
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: leather vs. cloth key bushing

Well, gee, I was being conservative. But when that refrigerator sized
platinum meteorite soft lands in the back yard, I'll buy one with the
chrome and big fins. Hydraulic suspension, all the bling, with a built
in recliner seat. Yes, you may touch it.
Ron N

Leather could be a possibility .....  but has anyone had time to observe how much better longevity the new super slick WN& Gross anodized front rail pins make? I only have one piano that I'm aware of that has these pins, and she's a retired piano professor who doesn't play enough to even begin to use as an example. I want to begin installing some of these in pianos here at Tech, but other pressures and deadlines... well, you know...    Kevin

------------------------------
Kevin Fortenberry
Registered Piano Technician
Lubbock TX
806-778-3962
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2015 10:53
From: Donald McKechnie
Subject: leather vs. cloth key bushing

David Porritt's reply on the Key Pin Size thread begs the old question of leather vs. cloth for key bushings. I experimented with leather for some practice room grands at IC. There was no doubt that the leather lasted longer by at least a year or two. The practice room grands are heavily used thus the need to replace the bushings with more frequency. We were lucky to get 3 years with cloth. The leather lasted 4-5 years.That may not seem significant to some but in an institution with heavily used pianos it makes a difference in time and money.

I have seen leather bushings in pianos that lasted many years and even for decades. Around the time I experimented at IC I also installed leather in pianos belonging to a couple of customers. They are still holding up. The problem was getting quality leather for this purpose after the good leather was used up. Has anyone experimented with leather recently and did you find a good source?
------------------------------
[Don] [McKechnie,] [RPT]
[Piano Technician]
[dmckech@ithaca.edu]
[Home 607.277.7112]
------------------------------

Kevin Fortenberry wrote:

but has anyone had time to observe how much better longevity the new super slick WN& Gross anodized front rail pins make?

Hi Kevin,

Yes. I put a set of the W, N & G front rail pins on a Steinway B in our piano teaching studio (which, like it or not, is THE favorite practice room for piano majors). While I normally ease front rail key bushings for a slight but positive knock, in this case I tried easing them just enough so that the keys were free (when moved up and down), but without any "knock" what so ever. This piano gets played quite heavily, and by a tag-team of serious players. Five years later, the bushings are still quite serviceable. The life span of front rail bushings on pianos withOUT the WNG key pins (including this one prior the the upgrade) is not nearly so good. Since the key pins were the only material variable I changed--and I guessed that I could get away with tighter tolerances to begin with because of them--I am convinced of their efficacy.

I also heartily recommend their capstans for the same reason (plus, they are lighter) if you are moving or replacing capstans anyway. And even if you aren't.

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2015 14:22
From: Kevin Fortenberry
Subject: leather vs. cloth key bushing

Leather could be a possibility .....  but has anyone had time to observe how much better longevity the new super slick WN& Gross anodized front rail pins make? I only have one piano that I'm aware of that has these pins, and she's a retired piano professor who doesn't play enough to even begin to use as an example. I want to begin installing some of these in pianos here at Tech, but other pressures and deadlines... well, you know...    Kevin

------------------------------
Kevin Fortenberry
Registered Piano Technician
Lubbock TX
806-778-3962
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2015 10:53
From: Donald McKechnie
Subject: leather vs. cloth key bushing

David Porritt's reply on the Key Pin Size thread begs the old question of leather vs. cloth for key bushings. I experimented with leather for some practice room grands at IC. There was no doubt that the leather lasted longer by at least a year or two. The practice room grands are heavily used thus the need to replace the bushings with more frequency. We were lucky to get 3 years with cloth. The leather lasted 4-5 years.That may not seem significant to some but in an institution with heavily used pianos it makes a difference in time and money.

I have seen leather bushings in pianos that lasted many years and even for decades. Around the time I experimented at IC I also installed leather in pianos belonging to a couple of customers. They are still holding up. The problem was getting quality leather for this purpose after the good leather was used up. Has anyone experimented with leather recently and did you find a good source?
------------------------------
[Don] [McKechnie,] [RPT]
[Piano Technician]
[dmckech@ithaca.edu]
[Home 607.277.7112]
------------------------------

David Porritt's reply on the Key Pin Size thread begs the old question of leather vs. cloth for key bushings. I experimented with leather for some practice room grands at IC. There was no doubt that the leather lasted longer by at least a year or two. The practice room grands are heavily used thus the need to replace the bushings with more frequency. We were lucky to get 3 years with cloth. The leather lasted 4-5 years.That may not seem significant to some but in an institution with heavily used pianos it makes a difference in time and money.

I have seen leather bushings in pianos that lasted many years and even for decades. Around the time I experimented at IC I also installed leather in pianos belonging to a couple of customers. They are still holding up. The problem was getting quality leather for this purpose after the good leather was used up. Has anyone experimented with leather recently and did you find a good source?
------------------------------
[Don] [McKechnie,] [RPT]
[Piano Technician]
[dmckech@ithaca.edu]
[Home 607.277.7112]
------------------------------

David Porritt's reply on the Key Pin Size thread begs the old question of leather vs. cloth for key bushings. I experimented with leather for some practice room grands at IC. There was no doubt that the leather lasted longer by at least a year or two. The practice room grands are heavily used thus the need to replace the bushings with more frequency. We were lucky to get 3 years with cloth. The leather lasted 4-5 years.That may not seem significant to some but in an institution with heavily used pianos it makes a difference in time and money.

I have seen leather bushings in pianos that lasted many years and even for decades. Around the time I experimented at IC I also installed leather in pianos belonging to a couple of customers. They are still holding up. The problem was getting quality leather for this purpose after the good leather was used up. Has anyone experimented with leather recently and did you find a good source?
------------------------------
[Don] [McKechnie,] [RPT]
[Piano Technician]
[dmckech@ithaca.edu]
[Home 607.277.7112]
------------------------------

Today leather is a very misunderstood topic, mainly because the leather used by piano makers in the 18th and 19th century is no longer avaialable.  Leather for use in pianos can not be mass produced and uniformity of density and thickness is all over the place even on the same skin. It takes skilled workers to do the job, and excellent leather is necessary to get good results. Skiving capabilites are also a must. For key bushing vegetable tanned calf or deer skin would likely be the best choice.  I would choose deer because it has a fine and tight fiber weave and is extremely resilient, tough, and long lasting......which is why it was used for many years for hammer coverings.  Unfortunately finding good leather today is next to impossible...unless you make it yourself. 

------------------------------
Jason Leininger
Pittsburgh PA
412-874-6992
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2015 10:53
From: Donald McKechnie
Subject: leather vs. cloth key bushing

David Porritt's reply on the Key Pin Size thread begs the old question of leather vs. cloth for key bushings. I experimented with leather for some practice room grands at IC. There was no doubt that the leather lasted longer by at least a year or two. The practice room grands are heavily used thus the need to replace the bushings with more frequency. We were lucky to get 3 years with cloth. The leather lasted 4-5 years.That may not seem significant to some but in an institution with heavily used pianos it makes a difference in time and money.

I have seen leather bushings in pianos that lasted many years and even for decades. Around the time I experimented at IC I also installed leather in pianos belonging to a couple of customers. They are still holding up. The problem was getting quality leather for this purpose after the good leather was used up. Has anyone experimented with leather recently and did you find a good source?
------------------------------
[Don] [McKechnie,] [RPT]
[Piano Technician]
[dmckech@ithaca.edu]
[Home 607.277.7112]
------------------------------

David Porritt's reply on the Key Pin Size thread begs the old question of leather vs. cloth for key bushings. I experimented with leather for some practice room grands at IC. There was no doubt that the leather lasted longer by at least a year or two. The practice room grands are heavily used thus the need to replace the bushings with more frequency. We were lucky to get 3 years with cloth. The leather lasted 4-5 years.That may not seem significant to some but in an institution with heavily used pianos it makes a difference in time and money.

I have seen leather bushings in pianos that lasted many years and even for decades. Around the time I experimented at IC I also installed leather in pianos belonging to a couple of customers. They are still holding up. The problem was getting quality leather for this purpose after the good leather was used up. Has anyone experimented with leather recently and did you find a good source?
------------------------------
[Don] [McKechnie,] [RPT]
[Piano Technician]
[dmckech@ithaca.edu]
[Home 607.277.7112]
------------------------------

Shouldn't we discover the difference between leather and felt from an artist?

David Porritt's reply on the Key Pin Size thread begs the old question of leather vs. cloth for key bushings. I experimented with leather for some practice room grands at IC. There was no doubt that the leather lasted longer by at least a year or two. The practice room grands are heavily used thus the need to replace the bushings with more frequency. We were lucky to get 3 years with cloth. The leather lasted 4-5 years.That may not seem significant to some but in an institution with heavily used pianos it makes a difference in time and money.

I have seen leather bushings in pianos that lasted many years and even for decades. Around the time I experimented at IC I also installed leather in pianos belonging to a couple of customers. They are still holding up. The problem was getting quality leather for this purpose after the good leather was used up. Has anyone experimented with leather recently and did you find a good source?
------------------------------
[Don] [McKechnie,] [RPT]
[Piano Technician]
[dmckech@ithaca.edu]
[Home 607.277.7112]
------------------------------

Wow! A 10 year old thread, back from the dead!

I used to like the idea of leather until I tried it. It does not feel as slick as felt, and I like the feel of very low friction front rail bushings. That being said, I have done a few sets with leather in the balance rail and felt on the front rail - an idea I learned from Roger Jolly. The friction is not as noticeable on the balance pin and the extra firm support of the leather is thought to extend the life of the front bushings. So perhaps this is the best of both worlds?

In regards to keybushings, I did a couple of dozen sets for a school district about 18 years ago. It's been interesting to see how some of them have held up. What I've noticed is there's a significant difference in how long they last relative to how much easing you do. 

I was taught the Spurlock method and I strived to have the free play come out perfect with minimal easing by carefully choosing the right sized cloth. However, I've found that the bushings last a lot longer if each one requires a firm squeeze to get them to their right tightness. When you are easing, you definitely get the most loosening with the first squeeze and then there are diminishing returns. 

Now, for longevity purposes I prefer to bush them on the tight side and then give each key a good squeeze with the easing pliers. Of course, you don't want to crush the wood, but you don't want to leave it "fluffed up" either. Also, ever since I watched Fred Sturm's videos on the education hub demonstrating his steaming and sizing technique - I've become a fan of the brass easing cauls that go in the soldering iron. 

Shouldn't we discover the difference between leather and felt from an artist?

David Porritt's reply on the Key Pin Size thread begs the old question of leather vs. cloth for key bushings. I experimented with leather for some practice room grands at IC. There was no doubt that the leather lasted longer by at least a year or two. The practice room grands are heavily used thus the need to replace the bushings with more frequency. We were lucky to get 3 years with cloth. The leather lasted 4-5 years.That may not seem significant to some but in an institution with heavily used pianos it makes a difference in time and money.

I have seen leather bushings in pianos that lasted many years and even for decades. Around the time I experimented at IC I also installed leather in pianos belonging to a couple of customers. They are still holding up. The problem was getting quality leather for this purpose after the good leather was used up. Has anyone experimented with leather recently and did you find a good source?
------------------------------
[Don] [McKechnie,] [RPT]
[Piano Technician]
[dmckech@ithaca.edu]
[Home 607.277.7112]
------------------------------

Wow! A 10 year old thread, back from the dead!

I used to like the idea of leather until I tried it. It does not feel as slick as felt, and I like the feel of very low friction front rail bushings. That being said, I have done a few sets with leather in the balance rail and felt on the front rail - an idea I learned from Roger Jolly. The friction is not as noticeable on the balance pin and the extra firm support of the leather is thought to extend the life of the front bushings. So perhaps this is the best of both worlds?

In regards to keybushings, I did a couple of dozen sets for a school district about 18 years ago. It's been interesting to see how some of them have held up. What I've noticed is there's a significant difference in how long they last relative to how much easing you do. 

I was taught the Spurlock method and I strived to have the free play come out perfect with minimal easing by carefully choosing the right sized cloth. However, I've found that the bushings last a lot longer if each one requires a firm squeeze to get them to their right tightness. When you are easing, you definitely get the most loosening with the first squeeze and then there are diminishing returns. 

Now, for longevity purposes I prefer to bush them on the tight side and then give each key a good squeeze with the easing pliers. Of course, you don't want to crush the wood, but you don't want to leave it "fluffed up" either. Also, ever since I watched Fred Sturm's videos on the education hub demonstrating his steaming and sizing technique - I've become a fan of the brass easing cauls that go in the soldering iron. 

Shouldn't we discover the difference between leather and felt from an artist?

David Porritt's reply on the Key Pin Size thread begs the old question of leather vs. cloth for key bushings. I experimented with leather for some practice room grands at IC. There was no doubt that the leather lasted longer by at least a year or two. The practice room grands are heavily used thus the need to replace the bushings with more frequency. We were lucky to get 3 years with cloth. The leather lasted 4-5 years.That may not seem significant to some but in an institution with heavily used pianos it makes a difference in time and money.

I have seen leather bushings in pianos that lasted many years and even for decades. Around the time I experimented at IC I also installed leather in pianos belonging to a couple of customers. They are still holding up. The problem was getting quality leather for this purpose after the good leather was used up. Has anyone experimented with leather recently and did you find a good source?
------------------------------
[Don] [McKechnie,] [RPT]
[Piano Technician]
[dmckech@ithaca.edu]
[Home 607.277.7112]
------------------------------

Wow! A 10 year old thread, back from the dead!

I used to like the idea of leather until I tried it. It does not feel as slick as felt, and I like the feel of very low friction front rail bushings. That being said, I have done a few sets with leather in the balance rail and felt on the front rail - an idea I learned from Roger Jolly. The friction is not as noticeable on the balance pin and the extra firm support of the leather is thought to extend the life of the front bushings. So perhaps this is the best of both worlds?

In regards to keybushings, I did a couple of dozen sets for a school district about 18 years ago. It's been interesting to see how some of them have held up. What I've noticed is there's a significant difference in how long they last relative to how much easing you do. 

I was taught the Spurlock method and I strived to have the free play come out perfect with minimal easing by carefully choosing the right sized cloth. However, I've found that the bushings last a lot longer if each one requires a firm squeeze to get them to their right tightness. When you are easing, you definitely get the most loosening with the first squeeze and then there are diminishing returns. 

Now, for longevity purposes I prefer to bush them on the tight side and then give each key a good squeeze with the easing pliers. Of course, you don't want to crush the wood, but you don't want to leave it "fluffed up" either. Also, ever since I watched Fred Sturm's videos on the education hub demonstrating his steaming and sizing technique - I've become a fan of the brass easing cauls that go in the soldering iron. 

Shouldn't we discover the difference between leather and felt from an artist?

David Porritt's reply on the Key Pin Size thread begs the old question of leather vs. cloth for key bushings. I experimented with leather for some practice room grands at IC. There was no doubt that the leather lasted longer by at least a year or two. The practice room grands are heavily used thus the need to replace the bushings with more frequency. We were lucky to get 3 years with cloth. The leather lasted 4-5 years.That may not seem significant to some but in an institution with heavily used pianos it makes a difference in time and money.

I have seen leather bushings in pianos that lasted many years and even for decades. Around the time I experimented at IC I also installed leather in pianos belonging to a couple of customers. They are still holding up. The problem was getting quality leather for this purpose after the good leather was used up. Has anyone experimented with leather recently and did you find a good source?
------------------------------
[Don] [McKechnie,] [RPT]
[Piano Technician]
[dmckech@ithaca.edu]
[Home 607.277.7112]
------------------------------

One of the counter-intuitive aspects to always remember with leather is that the rough side should be the surface that contacts the pin not the smooth side. I learned that from one of Roger Jolly's posts. The rough side will accept Teflon powder to keep the squeaks away. 

Fred makes a good point about the felt being somewhat renewable. I've had some success just putting a drop of profelt on each balance bushing with the keys still in the piano. I put the drop right on the divot in the cloth - not the entire bushing, as it may cause it to loosen and fall out. 

Something I've also considered is using thick bushing cloth on the side of the balance mortice that takes the most wear. If you look at very worn balance bushings they are almost always mostly worn on one side. What about putting extra thick on that side, and using thin on the opposite side that doesn't get as much wear. 

Wow! A 10 year old thread, back from the dead!

I used to like the idea of leather until I tried it. It does not feel as slick as felt, and I like the feel of very low friction front rail bushings. That being said, I have done a few sets with leather in the balance rail and felt on the front rail - an idea I learned from Roger Jolly. The friction is not as noticeable on the balance pin and the extra firm support of the leather is thought to extend the life of the front bushings. So perhaps this is the best of both worlds?

In regards to keybushings, I did a couple of dozen sets for a school district about 18 years ago. It's been interesting to see how some of them have held up. What I've noticed is there's a significant difference in how long they last relative to how much easing you do. 

I was taught the Spurlock method and I strived to have the free play come out perfect with minimal easing by carefully choosing the right sized cloth. However, I've found that the bushings last a lot longer if each one requires a firm squeeze to get them to their right tightness. When you are easing, you definitely get the most loosening with the first squeeze and then there are diminishing returns. 

Now, for longevity purposes I prefer to bush them on the tight side and then give each key a good squeeze with the easing pliers. Of course, you don't want to crush the wood, but you don't want to leave it "fluffed up" either. Also, ever since I watched Fred Sturm's videos on the education hub demonstrating his steaming and sizing technique - I've become a fan of the brass easing cauls that go in the soldering iron. 

Shouldn't we discover the difference between leather and felt from an artist?

David Porritt's reply on the Key Pin Size thread begs the old question of leather vs. cloth for key bushings. I experimented with leather for some practice room grands at IC. There was no doubt that the leather lasted longer by at least a year or two. The practice room grands are heavily used thus the need to replace the bushings with more frequency. We were lucky to get 3 years with cloth. The leather lasted 4-5 years.That may not seem significant to some but in an institution with heavily used pianos it makes a difference in time and money.

I have seen leather bushings in pianos that lasted many years and even for decades. Around the time I experimented at IC I also installed leather in pianos belonging to a couple of customers. They are still holding up. The problem was getting quality leather for this purpose after the good leather was used up. Has anyone experimented with leather recently and did you find a good source?
------------------------------
[Don] [McKechnie,] [RPT]
[Piano Technician]
[dmckech@ithaca.edu]
[Home 607.277.7112]
------------------------------

I've never installed leather bushings myself, but I have one piano that I service with leather bushings.  I find the feel to be a bit strange as they are hard and almost have a knock to them.  Has anyone ever used a product to soften the leather?  I know leather softeners and conditioners exist, but I've never tried them.

One of the counter-intuitive aspects to always remember with leather is that the rough side should be the surface that contacts the pin not the smooth side. I learned that from one of Roger Jolly's posts. The rough side will accept Teflon powder to keep the squeaks away. 

Fred makes a good point about the felt being somewhat renewable. I've had some success just putting a drop of profelt on each balance bushing with the keys still in the piano. I put the drop right on the divot in the cloth - not the entire bushing, as it may cause it to loosen and fall out. 

Something I've also considered is using thick bushing cloth on the side of the balance mortice that takes the most wear. If you look at very worn balance bushings they are almost always mostly worn on one side. What about putting extra thick on that side, and using thin on the opposite side that doesn't get as much wear. 

Wow! A 10 year old thread, back from the dead!

I used to like the idea of leather until I tried it. It does not feel as slick as felt, and I like the feel of very low friction front rail bushings. That being said, I have done a few sets with leather in the balance rail and felt on the front rail - an idea I learned from Roger Jolly. The friction is not as noticeable on the balance pin and the extra firm support of the leather is thought to extend the life of the front bushings. So perhaps this is the best of both worlds?

In regards to keybushings, I did a couple of dozen sets for a school district about 18 years ago. It's been interesting to see how some of them have held up. What I've noticed is there's a significant difference in how long they last relative to how much easing you do. 

I was taught the Spurlock method and I strived to have the free play come out perfect with minimal easing by carefully choosing the right sized cloth. However, I've found that the bushings last a lot longer if each one requires a firm squeeze to get them to their right tightness. When you are easing, you definitely get the most loosening with the first squeeze and then there are diminishing returns. 

Now, for longevity purposes I prefer to bush them on the tight side and then give each key a good squeeze with the easing pliers. Of course, you don't want to crush the wood, but you don't want to leave it "fluffed up" either. Also, ever since I watched Fred Sturm's videos on the education hub demonstrating his steaming and sizing technique - I've become a fan of the brass easing cauls that go in the soldering iron. 

Shouldn't we discover the difference between leather and felt from an artist?

David Porritt's reply on the Key Pin Size thread begs the old question of leather vs. cloth for key bushings. I experimented with leather for some practice room grands at IC. There was no doubt that the leather lasted longer by at least a year or two. The practice room grands are heavily used thus the need to replace the bushings with more frequency. We were lucky to get 3 years with cloth. The leather lasted 4-5 years.That may not seem significant to some but in an institution with heavily used pianos it makes a difference in time and money.

I have seen leather bushings in pianos that lasted many years and even for decades. Around the time I experimented at IC I also installed leather in pianos belonging to a couple of customers. They are still holding up. The problem was getting quality leather for this purpose after the good leather was used up. Has anyone experimented with leather recently and did you find a good source?
------------------------------
[Don] [McKechnie,] [RPT]
[Piano Technician]
[dmckech@ithaca.edu]
[Home 607.277.7112]
------------------------------