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Best Glue for hanging hammers

  • 1.  Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Posted 07-30-2015 11:48

    I'm a recently new hire at Southern Illinois University and have been enjoying being a CAUT 'stalker' just reading and learning from all of your great posts. But, now I have a question for all your brilliant brains....

    This morning I was having a glue discussion with a woodworker and was learning the differences in the brittleness/flexibility of the various titebond wood glues. This caused me to wonder what the community consensus is on the best glue for hanging hammers. My gut says hide glue, but prehung come with various wood glues or even PVC-E. Please educate me. Thank you.

    ------------------------------
    Cheryl Marting

    Southern Illinois Univeristy, Edwardsville
    ------------------------------



  • 2.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-30-2015 11:57

    Welcome to CAUT-ville!  I think hide is probably the best, but I don't like working with it. I use TiteBond Moulding glue for hammer hanging. I don't know what the glue is that Steinway uses. Looks sort of like PVC-e, but not sure. I'm sure you'll get 10 different thoughts. That's what makes this group so cool.  Always learning something!

    Paul


    ------------------------------
    Paul T. Williams RPT
    Director of Piano Services
    School of Music
    813 Assembly St
    University of South Carolina
    Columbia, SC 29208
    pwilliams@mozart.sc.edu
    ------------------------------




  • 3.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-30-2015 12:26

    Greetings Cheryl,

    Aways good to hear a new voice with a pertinent question!

    As I have posted before, at my school the relative humidity ranges from 10% to 70% (the driest time time being during the heart of the school year). I have pianos under my care that have hide glue, WhatEverTheHeck Steinway uses and WETH Yamaha uses. Of the various hammer-hanging glues in play here, the ONLY one that has NEVER had a joint failure (hammerhead loose on shank, evidenced by a wood-to-wood sounding "click", most prominent on a soft to moderate blow) is the TiteBond Wood Trim and Moulding glue that Paul referenced. (If memory serves, that is also what PianoTek uses for their hammer hanging service.)

    This glue may not dry as hard as hide glue, but many of us have not found that difference to be musically significant, and not having loose hammers is definitely a good thing.

    Your Milage May Vary. Please keep us informed of your own findings!

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------




  • 4.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-30-2015 12:43

    I prefer hot hide, myself, and don't get a significant number of loose heads. It does depend on technique of applying (how hot and thin/thick, how close your bore diameter is to the shank diameter, how you apply, etc.)

    I would definitely not consider PVC-E. That is a rubbery glue, with cushioning effect. You want something hard. Titebond molding glue has lots and lots of fans. I prefer hot hide partly because of its faster set, but that is also partly a matter of what I have become used to, and my technique in hanging (I don't use any jigs to hold the hammers in place, just a straightedge for in/out, top/bottom, and a jig to establish that it is square on the shank. So when I move on to the next hammer, I don't want to have to worry about sag and shift - with hot hide it stays put).

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------




  • 5.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-30-2015 13:32

    I have had consistent outstanding results with Bolduc Acoustic Glue. It cures very hard and brittle. Be sure the dry fit is a bit loose to avoid glue squeeze out and to allow perfect positioning of the hammer head. A tapered reamer is the best way to achieve the right fit for grand hammers. Ream from the shank side of the hammer head so it is almost tight at the "top" or distal side of the hammer but a bit loose at the bottom. For uprights it is easiest to reduce the diameter of the shank just enough to make the fit a bit loose.

    ------------------------------
    Ted Kidwell, RPT
    California State University, Sacramento
    Capistrano Hall, rm. 153
    6000 J Street
    Sacramento, CA 95819-6015
    916.278.6737

    ------------------------------




  • 6.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Posted 07-30-2015 18:32

    I concur about the tapered reamer (mine is in a T-handle). The tapered reamer is great for getting the fit exactly how you like before reaching for glue. I hadn't done hammer replacements for awhile, and then started again, and I was struggling. Doug Wood recommended both the tapered reamer and the Titebond trim and molding glue. What a relief! It NEVER drips, it sets up in just the right amount of time, and when I wanted to pull and redo a couple, they came off without a big fight. He also recommended Jurgen Goering's German grand hammer head removal pliers. Those things are magic! (Piano Forte Supply, Nanaimo, BC in the PTG directory.) Unsolicited plug. Not a cheap tool, but worth every penny. At one point, when I had replaced a set of hammers, shanks, and flanges, I discovered that although the hammers had been basket cases, the knuckles and center pins in the old set weren't all that bad, and could certainly be saved for spares. I sat down with the pliers and removed every hammer, in about a half hour. Nothing broke at all, neither hammers nor shanks. Better living through geometry, I guess.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon

    ------------------------------




  • 7.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-31-2015 12:32

    Totally agree with this.  I repair a lot of loose hammers glued with hide glue, regular titebond, etc.  The Titebond Wood Trim and Molding glue has a high viscosity (no drips, nice collar), good gap filling properties when needed.

    While it's true that hide glue properly mixed and at the right viscosity with precise fitting hammer heads and shanks will certainly work well it does require monitoring, paying attention and working at the right speed.  The Titebond Trim glue removes those variables, gives you more leeway, is easier to work with and therefore gives more consistent results with fewer problems.  To remove, warm the joint with a heat gun and the head comes off easily.  

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------




  • 8.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Posted 07-31-2015 13:19
    Just for the record. In spite of the general attitude that hot hide is
    difficult to use or touchy, it's not, as anyone who actually uses it
    will tell you. Hammer heads don't need to be fitted any more precisely
    with hide glue than with Titebond Trim and Molding, and it doesn't
    require any special or difficult working speed. Someone standing for ten
    minutes with a glued hammer in their hand will produce a failed job with
    either glue. I don't understand the need to malign a fine glue just from
    personal preference.

    Yes, the Trim glue is quite nice, but not because of any deficiency of
    hide glue.
    Ron N




  • 9.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-31-2015 14:25

    Hi Ron,

    I don't read any of these posts, including my own, as maligning hide glue. It has been a fantastically effective glue for, oh, something like 4000 years now. You could say it has stood the test of time.

    I think this is the question: Given the occasional failure of hammer head glue joints, what is the overwhelming advantage of using hide glue? My success rate has risen to 100% since I switched from hide to Bolduc. I certainly can't discern any tonal difference. It is just as easy to remove a head glued with Bolduc using the Jorgen pliers that Susan mentioned.

    If I felt I could do better work with hide glue I would switch right back. Can you tell me in what way hide glue is superior?

    ------------------------------
    Ted Kidwell, RPT
    California State University, Sacramento
    Capistrano Hall, rm. 153
    6000 J Street
    Sacramento, CA 95819-6015
    916.278.6737

    ------------------------------




  • 10.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Posted 07-31-2015 15:08

    I thought of one drawback of the Titebond trim and molding glue versus hide glue --- only one company manufactures it. If anything happens to Titebond (hopefully a very distant possibility) we couldn't get their trim and molding glue. Even now, some stores don't carry it, so we have to order it online or figure out which stores do have it.

    Hide glue can come from many sources, has been around since the year dot, will never be unavailable, will never be "improved" so it isn't as good anymore, like happened to Elmer's not so long ago. In return for this total security of supply we can put up with learning the skillset needed to use it, and the way it rots if one isn't careful.

    I don't know how well the two kinds of glue joints hold up over decades. I think of hide glue in extreme humidity getting weakened by bacteria, for instance --though an awful lot of very old pianos don't seem to be coming apart.


    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon

    ------------------------------




  • 11.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Posted 07-31-2015 16:04
    Hi Ted
    If negatives that aren't, in practice, isn't maligning, I apologize.

    It's my impression that the dire tonal consequences of not using (x)
    glue are hallucinatory Nd even marketing based, but there's a lot of
    that in the business. So I don't have any claims at all in that direction.

    I like hot hide for felt and leather work and have found nothing better,
    or even as good. I use it for some wood work too, with similarly good
    results. Spread thin quickly, which you can't do with a squeeze bottle
    of any cold glue unless you're using it out of an open container with a
    brush, it gels fast, doesn't wick up into the felt, and can be handled
    nearly immediately. You can really make time refelting or leathering
    anything. Bushing too, for trapwork and such. Damper installation, and
    of course hammers, it's quick and sure. With hot hide I find I'm sitting
    around much less waiting for glue to set up before I can move or
    assemble it. Sure, there are situations where it's not appropriate, so I
    use something else for those situations. There are so many instances in
    a shop where hot hide is both appropriate and desirable, I hate to see
    it dismissed wholesale because someone used it badly and consequently
    wrote it off. As many times as I've seen "rebuild in a bottle" (CA) used
    badly, it has become the first glue reached for in way too many cases,
    while a fine glue like hot hide remains largely misrepresented and not
    even considered as a result. There is no universal glue, but I'd much
    sooner totally abandon CA than I would hot hide. I was once given a new
    expensive Hold Heat glue pot and the pound of glue crystals that had
    convinced the tech that hide glue was junk. I tried to get him to keep
    it, and had offered to help set him up to use it, but he had a bad
    experience and wanted nothing more to do with it ever again. I found he
    had bought the glue from one of the supply houses, and I tried a test
    batch and also found the stuff to be utterly unusable. Truly hideous
    glop, totally unmanageable. So I called the supply house to ask what it
    was. I was told it was Milligan and Higgins (a good name), with a gram
    strength of 370-399 grams. WOW! I'd never seen anything like this first
    hand, and couldn't imagine why they were selling it to unsuspecting
    techs without any technical information at all. They obviously don't
    know what they're selling. There is nothing I know of that can be done
    to that glue to make it usable for anything I'll ever try to do, and
    that was his only problem. Had he bought the 251 gram stuff from
    Pianotek, or 192 gram (my choice) from Highland or any of the other many
    sellers of Milligan and Higgins, Bjorn, J.E Mosers, Behlen, and some I'm
    not familiar with like L.D. Davis, he would have been fine and very
    possibly would still be happily using his glue pot. The glue went out in
    the yard for the ants. They probably now have indestructible tunnels.
    It's like learning on and playing a piano that has never been tuned. It
    isn't obvious what's missing without experiencing it.

    So no, it's not a handy field repair glue, but it's a first rate shop
    choice in addition to, say Titebond original (my choice), Boldoc's,
    Instrument Maker's Glue, Assembly 65 (from M&H), or Trim and Molding.
    All good glues. It just deserves to be on the list with these others
    instead of being unilaterally dismissed as it is more than any other glue.
    Ron N




  • 12.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-31-2015 18:49

    Amen, brother Ron!

    I would just add that I can't imagine using anything else for such routine things as damper felts, key bushings, back check leather, and so forth. So much more efficient in time spent, and so much better in reversibility. So since I have the glue and the pot, why not use it for hammers? And, as I mentioned before, loose heads is essentially a non-issue. I get them occasionally, both on sets I hung with hide glue and on original equipment new pianos from all the manufacturers, who use something else. I doubt there is any glue that won't fail occasionally on a joint like that, where end grain is a major component, and where the expansion/contraction directions are misaligned.

    I don't have a fancy glue pot. I took Bill Spurlock's advice: I have a couple percolators from a thrift store, that I adjusted the temperature control on (opened the bottom and bent the bimetal coil) so that it holds the right temperature (measured with a candy thermometer).

    I hang a holder for my glue jar by three stainless steel wires, run through holes I drilled in the side (I used to use brass wires, but they only last a few years. I figure the stainless is lifetime). The holder is a large plastic pill bottle with the lid end down, lid gone, bottle cut in half: water goes up the lid hole and fills the area, and the glue jar sits nicely in the middle. I put a jar of the size for the job, usually a tiny baby food or sample jelly jar, in that holder. Fill the percolator with water, plug it in, put the glue in. That quantity of water means I don't need to keep it plugged in if it is more convenient to carry somewhere else - it will hold the temperature for 15 minutes or more. The percolator lid (with the glass insert removed) is a nice dome for keeping moisture in (keeping the top of the glue from skinning), and giving access for a brush or a dowel.

    One of the simple things in life. No worries about shelf life. If I'm in a hurry, I'll use something else (fish glue, if appropriate), but it is better to plan ahead, and do it right.

    Which is not a dig against those who prefer molding glue, Bolduc's or whatever. Just a positive report on hot hide. It has worked well in pianos for 300 years now. It will probably continue to do so, as long as people keep making it.


    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------




  • 13.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-31-2015 20:52

    I have never experimented with cold hide glue, have you? I wonder if it would be a good glue for bushings when you are away from the shop.

    ------------------------------
    Ted Kidwell, RPT
    California State University, Sacramento
    Capistrano Hall, rm. 153
    6000 J Street
    Sacramento, CA 95819-6015
    916.278.6737

    ------------------------------




  • 14.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Posted 07-31-2015 21:01
    One of the major benefits of hot hide for bushings is that it doesn't
    tend to wick into the cloth. Cold hide most definitely does. If you use
    it, do it vary sparingly. Molding and Trim is a better choice than cold
    hide for that.
    Ron N




  • 15.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Posted 08-01-2015 03:05

    Cold hide works as efficiently as hot hide but takes much, much longer to set. BTW for damper felts and key bushings, might I recommend Tacky glue that you'll find in fine art and supply stores. It doesn't wick into the felts and the tackiness makes it easier to install. Anyone else has experience with this glue?



    ------------------------------
    Andrew Saderman
    Forest Hills NY
    718-263-6508
    ------------------------------




  • 16.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-01-2015 05:34

    In my humble opinion, cold Hyde is not good for key bushings or really any other application for fine piano work that I can think of.  I tried it for some different things many years ago, and came to the conclusion that it's pretty much worthless for most piano work. I'm not saying there are not some appropriate applications out there, but I could never find anything. 

    I have used Tacky glue for many small uses such as gluing thin layers of felt to the hammer rail to adjust blow on uprights. I would not recommend this AT ALL for key bushings. It seems to be of the similar family as PVC-E. It dries sort of "rubbery" and would be quite problematic to reverse or when bushings are replaced in the future. 

    In a pinch, like field repairs, I have used wood glue or similar water soluable glue and would recommend this (or the fish glue option) over anything such as Aleene's or other "tacky glue". 

    ------------------------------
    Kevin Fortenberry
    Registered Piano Technician
    Lubbock TX
    806-778-3962
    ------------------------------




  • 17.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-02-2015 00:28

    No one was maligning hot hide glue, not me anyway. I used it for decades but I haven't used a hot glue put in years and don't miss it. I use cold hide when appropriate for dampers and bushings, things I know I'll want to undo at some point, or where strength is not such an issue, but haven't had any saturation problems. Maybe people are using too much. Perhaps I would use it if I did player work but I don't.  If I worked on early instruments, harpsichords and things like that I'd probably use it more as well.  

    My own experience is that I notice more failure with hide glue on hammer heads than titebond trim, enough to convince me to switch. I also just don't like taking the time to heat glue pots, monitor viscosity, set up double boilers, mix urea, clean up, etc. and I think it stinks. My personal preference but I certainly don't have any objection to people using whatever they want.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------




  • 18.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Posted 08-02-2015 05:47

    In a high humidity areas like here, cold hide glue is ineffective. Damper felts fall off eventually. The only place I'd use it is to stick felt to the plate prior to stringing, after it got tacky. I'd never use it on hammers, it never really sets....
    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page



  • 19.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Posted 08-02-2015 10:56
    > In a high humidity areas like here, cold hide glue is ineffective.
    > Damper felts fall off eventually. The only place I'd use it is to
    > stick felt to the plate prior to stringing, after it got tacky. I'd
    > never use it on hammers, it never really sets....


    And burnt shellack, an almost entirely forgotten once common adhesive
    and sealer, is a far better choice for gluing felt on the plate.
    Ron N




  • 20.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-02-2015 11:20

    I too live in a high humidity area, albeit a cooler one, and don't have problems that way.  Liquid hide glue does have an expiration date and it's good to pay attention to that as one of the characteristics of liquid hide glue once it's past the expiration date is that it doesn't harden.  As Ron N's article link points out (and it's a good article) the purpose of liquid hide is to give a longer open time--30 - 60 minutes versus 1-5 minutes with hot hide glue.  This is done with the addition of urea and adding urea does weaken the glue slightly depending on the amount of urea used because the glue compound is being replaced by whatever percentage of urea, a non-glue compound.  It might also be noted that the author of that article sells a liquid hide glue product.

    One of the issues with hot hide glue failure may be due in part to the short working time.  Once the working time has elapsed and the glue gels, then moving the hammer head will effectively break the joint.  If you use hot hide then once you set the hammer head you need to leave it there.  If you find after a few minutes (or after gluing the next hammer) that it's leaning a bit more to one side than you like, for example, you can't just go back in and move it without potentially weakening the joint. Adding some urea (as I used to do) will extend the working time but, as the article suggests, not more than 15% by weight or you start weakening the strength of the mixture itself.  Also, too thin a mixture (i.e. too much water) means that when the glue dries it shrinks more and any gaps in the joint may be exposed.  So monitoring the viscosity is also important.  Ron's suggestion about using a countersink to open up the leading edge on the hole in the hammer head is a good one and I do that as well, in addition to applying glue to both parts, shank and hammer head.  I've just found that the TB Trim glue works without all that trouble, or the hour or more it takes to prepare the glue in the first place.

    I never used liquid hide glue on hammers mostly because it's so runny (it drips) and sets up too slowly for that application.  I continue to use it on dampers and bushings without problems of failure or saturation.  As in all bushing work, you have to use the right amount of glue on the cloth and thinner cloth is more susceptible to saturation problems than thicker cloth.

    BTW I have found that the TB Trim Glue is also works well for gluing stringing underfelt to plates.  It grabs quickly and is easy to clean up with a damp cloth.  


    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------




  • 21.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Posted 08-02-2015 12:02
    > Ron's suggestion about using a countersink to open up the leading
    > edge on the hole in the hammer head is a good one and I do that as
    > well, in addition to applying glue to both parts, shank and hammer
    > head. I've just found that the TB Trim glue works without all that
    > trouble, or the hour or more it takes to prepare the glue in the
    > first place.

    An hour or more? No wonder you quit using it.

    Sorry, I don't have any vaguely not really accurate, negative but non
    maligning things to say about trim glue. It's a fine glue.
    Ron N




  • 22.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Posted 08-02-2015 12:49


    > or the hour or more it takes to prepare the glue in the
    > first place.

    >>An hour or more? No wonder you quit using it.

    I use different glues for various processes, but prefer hot hide glue for damper, key bushings, etc. I'm certainly no expert in the use of this glue. When I was learning to use this glue, I think the supplier recommended that it not be used it until has soaked for a couple of hours, or even overnight. This is a pain, in the poor planning department, so I'm curious if there are quicker ways to get up and running with a new batch of glue.

    The other thing I find is that batches of glue, go fuzzy in between uses, so I chuck the remainders, almost always, and start a new batch, which then has to soak, etc.

    That said, for dampers and bushings after trying other glues I'm sticking with hot hide. But can anyone address the two points above: soaking before use, and batches going off in between uses. My batches, by the way, are as small as I can make them for a given process...maybe 1/2" in a baby food jar.

       
    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-02-2015 13:13

    If starting from scratch it does take an hour or more to soak, then heat, get all the crystals dissolved, etc.  If you preplan using if effectively then you can begin that process before you anticipate needing to use it.  

    Or, you can presoak it and once it turns into a gel put it in a tightly sealed jar (or set of small jars) and keep it in the refrigerator.  Pull it out when you need it.  Heating and reheating hide glue over time tends to diminish it's strength.  Hide glue tends to grow mold and bacteria if left out after it's been constituted.  Refrigeration will prevent that from happening and you hope no one mistakes it for an ice cream topping.  

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------




  • 24.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Posted 08-02-2015 13:38
    > Refrigeration will prevent that from happening and you hope no one
    > mistakes it for an ice cream topping.


    It does jiggle in the plate, and is the same stuff, though less refined
    (prenatal) as Jell-o.

    Terry Farrell's dog liked it!

    Ron N




  • 25.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-02-2015 15:07

    Or a substitute for beef bullion in a pinch.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------




  • 26.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Posted 08-02-2015 13:30
    Starting a batch, I add the water to the crystals, cover it, and plug it
    in. While I'm fitting hammers, it heats. When I'm ready, so is the glue.
    For bushings, same thing. By the time I get set up and ready to install
    them, the glue is ready. Sitting and watching the crystals swell might
    be fascinating once, but I've learned that they will hydrate just fine
    and melt into glue while under heat and unobserved and unattended. A
    quick stir a few minutes before use, and it's glue. It doesn't seem to
    need my help. Definitely a video that's guaranteed to not go viral.

    Mold does like hide glue. Cap your jar and put it in the fridge. It'll
    keep well and be good for at least a couple of cycles, by which time
    you've used it up anyway. The loss of strength from reheating cited by
    the luthiers and furniture people is real, but nowhere near approaching
    a detrimental level for our uses. I've kept a pot going for over a week,
    unplugging it at night, leaving it on the bench, and adding crystals
    periodically to maintain enough ready glue for the day's jobs.

    I've even reconstituted glue that was left in an open pot for a couple
    of months and dried brittle hard. Blew out the dust, added water,
    plugged in, came back later, stirred in more crystals, back later, and
    go. If it's gotten brown and nasty, pitch it. If it's still clear and
    not moldy, it's likely usable. The glue is cheap enough to pitch without
    regret, so it's not a matter of hoarding precious materials beyond
    reason. It's more an unnecessary waste thing for me as long as it meets
    high performance standards. I don't tolerate poor glue of any sort. But
    some are more anal than I are. I've read recommendations of microwaving
    individual glue cubes made in an ice cube tray in the freezer, for small
    jobs and field work, but that seems a tad unnatural and chancy even for
    me, so I can't say either way. It's reported to work well.

    That's all I think of at the moment.
    Ron N




  • 27.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Posted 08-02-2015 13:46
    > That's all I think of at the moment.

    NO, it isn't.

    Years ago, I watched a PBS segment "The Harpsichord Maker". As one point
    he was telling about how he had taken the bottom off an old instrument
    and was delighted to find the maker had spilled a glue pot inside and
    just boxed it in. He chipped it out and dumped it in his own pot and was
    thrilled that he was using not only authentic glue, but the very same
    ACTUAL glue in the repairs to the instrument. Now THAT'S using authentic
    factory parts.

    Ron N




  • 28.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-02-2015 14:47

    You can also speed things along a bit by adding fairly hot water to the dry glue initially, if you are in a hurry.

    I can usually start using it in about 15 minutes I guess (haven't timed it, just do things like Ron described: set up the glue pot, then go about prep work like numbering the hammers, fitting them to shanks, or removal of whatever felt or leather I am replacing, etc. The glue is certainly ready when I am ready to use it. Not true if all I am doing is re-gluing one hammer head or re-bushing one key, in which case I'll choose something different.

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------




  • 29.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Posted 08-02-2015 15:05

    It sounds like you and Ron have devolved to not soaking any more than it takes to warm the goo up. To tell the truth, I don't seem to notice any difference soaking for a couple of hours, overnight,  or just adding water and warming the thing up.

    I was on a campaign to get nasty glues out of the fridge, but this stuff is edible, so I guess it doesn't qualify as nasty...nothing like CA. The CA lasts way better in the fridge, but my wife and I decided having those solvents in the fridge was not something we wanted on our toast. Running a small fridge in the shop for 3- 1/2oz bottles of CA seems like a poor economy.


    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------






  • 30.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-02-2015 15:48

    I have not found just getting it to the point of warmed up adequate to fully dissolve the crystals.  Where there are crystals that are not dissolved the glue won't be as strong.  You can certainly use it after that brief a period but I wouldn't.  The consistency of fully dissolved glue is different and I wouldn't stop short of that.  An hour or so is usually fine but it depends on how much water you put in to start and then you have to get it to the right consistency.  If you've used too much water you'll have to allow it to thicken.  Not enough then you'll have to thin it and allow the water you add to warm up to the temperature of the pot.   

    I always found it was best to use cold water to start the hydration process and once the glue gelled to then turn on the heat. I'm sure other methods work too but I do think it should be *fully* dissolved.  If you're in a hurry, use something else.

    Once you've dissolved the glue and are done with it you have to seal the jar and refrigerate if you don't want to start a petri dish.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------




  • 31.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Posted 08-02-2015 16:26
    > I always found it was best to use cold water to start the hydration
    > process and once the glue gelled to then turn on the heat. I'm sure
    > other methods work too but I do think it should be *fully* dissolved.
    > If you're in a hurry, use something else.

    It does fully dissolve in a short time, and most people are smart and
    competent enough to not use the stuff if there are still crystals
    floating in it. Sprinkling the crystals on the wood and wetting them
    down with boiling water probably won't work either, but this has to
    become sensible at some point.

    Just imagine what we'd be reading if you were actually maligning hot
    hide glue.
    Ron N




  • 32.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-02-2015 17:15




    I use a fair amount of liquid hide glue though not for hanging hammers. I found myself needing to use some over a weekend this summer and only had a year and a half old bottle in the shop. Having no way to get a new bottle before Monday I went looking for advice on the google machine and came up with this blog post by Stephen Shepherd who literally wrote the book on hide glue. http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=4942  I tried the two tests and found my expired glue to be still good. In future I'll take the expiration dates on my bottles of liquid hide to be more guidelines than gospel. I really like Bolduc glue for hammers because it's quite similar to the Woodlok glue that Steinway uses but seems to have a little longer shelf life. The reason I like it better than Molding and Trim glue is that it is much easier to remove with a little heat.  The Bolduc glue comes off cleanly with 30 seconds of heat from a hair iron.  The M&T glue is kind of rubbery after heating and takes a lot more effort to remove without wood damage.

    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL



  • 33.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-03-2015 17:49

    I did not know Buldoc glue joints can be released with heat.  Is that even after setting overnight?  Thanks.

    ------------------------------
    Tim Coates
    Sioux Falls SD
    ------------------------------




  • 34.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-04-2015 08:36

    I have released Bolduc and also Woodlok and titebond using heat years after glue up. In the past I used the same heat gun I use for casting hammers but it's tricky and time consuming.  I've found that a couple of cheap hair irons let me remove a whole set cleanly without scorching  the wood in about an hour. I'll try to post a photo later this week

    Karl Roeder

    Pompano Beach



  • 35.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-02-2015 21:21

    You know, life is just too short for snark as far as I'm concerned.  Suffice it to say that when I want to glue a set of hammers I prefer to reach for a bottle of glue rather than a glue pot, glue crystals, urea, water and an outlet.  But your mileage may vary and I have no objection.  

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------




  • 36.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Posted 08-02-2015 21:28
    Why thank you.
    Ron N




  • 37.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Posted 08-02-2015 16:17
    > It sounds like you and Ron have devolved to not soaking any more than
    > it takes to warm the goo up. To tell the truth, I don't seem to
    > notice any difference soaking for a couple of hours, overnight, or
    > just adding water and warming the thing up.

    See, if you cross your eyes, they really won't stick like that.

    The Easter Bunny




  • 38.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Posted 08-02-2015 11:39
    > Perhaps I would use it if I did player work but I don't.

    Hot hide isn't player specific. I've done one player rebuild in the last
    20 years and have managed to use a fair quantity of glue crystals in
    spite of it.

    No, you don't directly malign it, but you hint that special fitting of
    hammer joints is required, and that it's a player thing.

    Part of what has gone into my glue choices, besides my own immediate
    convenience and the glue's effectiveness, is stripping off what was used
    last. With damper heads, replacing hammers on existing shanks (which I
    haven't done for a very long time, but isn't uncommon or unreasonable in
    institutional employment settings), and replacing action back rail
    cloth, I'm always happy when it's hot hide I'm removing. A sharp Red
    Devil scraper typically shatters the old glue off beautifully and
    quickly. No liquid necessary, and typically no heat. I have wasted far
    more time and incurred much more damage trying to remove the myriad
    unidentified modern glues than has been the case with hot hide.

    Key bushings and recovering back checks are the exception, moisture, and
    in my case, heat as well. Again, having experienced and observed the
    difficulty and damage done getting mystery glue out of key bushings, and
    finding so many key bushings that squeaked and clicked from being wicked
    full of glue, I find it incredible that hot hide is not the chicken in
    everyone's pot in the shop.

    People will use what they will use for their own reasons. Personal
    preference is universal and necessary, but I think the reasons for a
    preference should be based on what real information is available.
    Ron N




  • 39.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Posted 07-31-2015 16:04
    http://www.liquidhideglue.com/technical-side-animal-hide-glue/

    Should anyone actually be interested, this is good basic information.
    Ron N




  • 40.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Posted 07-30-2015 12:18

    After many hot glue failures, I use Bolduc Wood Glue.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page



  • 41.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Posted 07-30-2015 16:30
    I hear hide glue blamed way too often when the problem is user
    ignorance. Use a 192 gram weight glue, and you have the right stuff.
    Break the edge of the hole you drill in the hammers with a countersink
    and you won't scrape all the glue off with a sharp edge when you put the
    hammer on. That works quite well with Titebond Molding Glue too, if you
    chose to use that.

    I've used hot hide for many years with no failures since I learned to
    break the edge of the bore hole. Use whatever you like, but don't
    badmouth hide glue until you learn to use it.

    Ron N




  • 42.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Posted 07-30-2015 18:45

    Such Great Information! So glad I was courageous enough to ask. Thank you all!

    ------------------------------
    Cheryl Marting
    Southern Illinois University, Edwardsville
    ------------------------------




  • 43.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-04-2015 22:20

    Great tip about breaking the edge of the whole. Makes perfect sense. Why hadn't I ever heard that before??

    ------------------------------
    Ryan Sowers
    Olympia WA
    360-705-4160
    ------------------------------




  • 44.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Posted 08-04-2015 22:26
    Probably because nobody famous has taught it in a convention class. I've
    mentioned it a number of times.
    Ron N




  • 45.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Posted 08-07-2015 00:15

    A number of different glues have been mentioned here- Hot hide glue, cold hyde, Titebond, even Bolduc Acoustic wood glue. Of particular interest is that some people have mentioned that they use the glue they do because they have reduced the amount of hammer heads coming loose. And it seems that it makes a difference to some who have written here the type of glue they use based on whether said glue requires a certain fit- that they would prefer to have a glue that will hold the hammer indefinitely, regardless of the type of fit up of the hammer to shank.  I would like to say that even if the hammers stay tight on the shanks, if you do not put a priority on having a reasonably tight and consistent dry fit up, you've done a bad job. The pitch and the angles should have been established at the supply house where you got them, so there is no reason for the hammer not to be tight- enough to where there is almost no up and down or side to side movement, yet free enough to glide up and down the shanks without forcing them. It does not take long nor is it difficult to get an exact fit, and it should be your number one priority in hanging hammers, above and beyond the type of glue you use. The purpose of the glue should be only to solidify an already tight joint, not to fill in big spaces and hold the pieces together in a certain position. Under no circumstances should a stronger glue be used as a substitute for a careful fit. It DOES affect the tone and the voicing. One technician here mentioned that since he switched from using hide glue to Bolduc Acoustic wood glue, he hasn't had any joint failures. Well, I would certainly hope he wouldn't. Bolduc glue is many, many times stronger than either hide glue or Titebond, as it was never even meant for hanging hammers. It was intended for soundboard installation, bridges and pinblocks!   If you have a solid, tight dry fit, you'll never have to use anything but hot hide glue; you will have done a better job, the piano will have a better tone, and you'll never have hammers that come loose.

    ------------------------------
    Alex Doss

    Complete Piano Service
    Spring Hill, FL. 352-686-6451
    ------------------------------




  • 46.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-07-2015 08:12

    I agree with much of what you are saying.  But living in a climate that changes from 15% to 80% humidity causes problems.  I see you live in FL, which is much different.  I've seen very nicely fit/glued hammer heads come loose after repeated seasonal changes.  Many of these pianos have no hope of being put into a climate controlled situation (that's just the way it is).  So, a better choice of glue is necessary.  I'm not sure I'd use some of the glues suggested, but to each his own. 

    ------------------------------
    Tim Coates
    Sioux Falls SD
    ------------------------------




  • 47.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-07-2015 11:28
    I agree about the need to assure good fit, so the hammer can slide easily on the shank but with no wobble. Most hammer suppliers do a great job of boring for that fit (given the shank diameter spec you provide) - and of course you can get that fit boring your own by selecting the bit size carefully. One of the worst situations is too small a bore, where the tapered reamer is over used, among other things changing angles, as well as giving some likelihood of enlarging too much.

    I wonder what people today think of knurling. It crushes the wood a bit, weakening the wood fiber layer, but OTOH that weakened layer of fiber will swell with the application of glue, filling in the gap, and will be stiffened by the glue it absorbs. That would seem to make a tighter final wood to wood fit as the glue cures, and make it possible to have the bore diameter and the shank diameter closer in size while allowing for easy movement of the hammer on the shank. I have never done it myself, wonder if others do. Staff still sells a nice adjustable knurler, $250.
    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    "Since everything is in our heads, we had better not lose them." Coco Chanel






  • 48.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Posted 08-07-2015 12:02
    I don't remember the year, but late 1970s, or early 80s I did the week
    at Steinway seminar. One of the stops was the hammer hanging station. We
    were assured the glue was hot hide glue, and it was indeed dipped out of
    a heated pot. It was mixed with something that colored it very close to
    matching the maple of the molding. Watching the process, the hammers
    were fitted very loose. Lots of fore and aft slop, and twist (angle to
    shank). An ice pick was dipped in the pot, jammed into the hammer bore,
    swabbed around the shank, and the hammer was spun on and dropped into a
    gang jig that indexed everything automatically for each individual
    hammer. There was no glue collar, as glue was glopped all over the
    molding, but being the color of the maple, it wasn't obvious or
    objectionable. Without the alignment jig, the hammer would have spun and
    hung upside down, or slumped in any random direction. This went very
    fast, since there was no fitting or stopping to straighten anything out
    (the jig did that) and produced a functional job. I asked what the glue
    was colored with, and was told it was just hide glue. Well, no. It had
    something in it even if it was a dash of whiting or something similar.

    I fit my hammers closer than that, but I still leave slight adjustment
    room, which means the fit is loose. Not sloppy, but not tight either. A
    tight fit gives up any adjustment capacity. The moisture hits the shank,
    and the joint seizes up. Since I hang one or two and double check
    alignment on the previous two as I progress, I want some minimal
    adjustment capacity for a few seconds. No loose joints that I know of
    from this procedure.

    There is a huge range of what works, and a lot more than one right way
    to do it. For all those many hundreds of thousands of hammer joints we
    abuse in tuning, the percentage of glue (actually joint) failures is
    very low.
    Ron N




  • 49.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-07-2015 14:22

    I enjoy this forum so much because it give me a window into other technician's practices and experience. I am often fascinated to learn how different they can be from mine.

    When I first started hanging hammers I bored nice, tight little holes thinking I was doing a very craftsmanlike job. My hammer line tended to come out very close but no cigar. I could not achieve that "factory" perfection because I had no wiggle room.  The parts would swell when the moisture of the glue hit and would set the way it pleased them to set. Being a bit of an over-achiever, this broke my heart.

    It was when I started boring the holes relatively tight, then reaming them so there was some wiggle all around, that I got a hammer line that looked like the one big hammer it originally was. I am a Spurlock jig guy, by the way.

    Equally important is the problem of glue squeeze out. I have closely inspected lots of loose hammer head joints (including some from the factory). I can often see clear evidence that the glue was scraped out of the joint when the parts were assembled. You see the same problem in failed furniture joints. sometimes you can pull a dowel back out of a hole because there is just no glue there. Glue does take up some space in the real world. If there is no space the glue will squeeze out or force the joint apart. So for furniture repair I make sure those dowels are nice and loose or use fluted dowels. For hammer heads I make sure there is a tiny bit of room inside the joint for the glue to live. If there has to be an error, I would much rather the dry fit be too loose than too tight.

    I do like working with the Bolduc glue for this job. It goes on thinner than the Titebond molding glue but gels up fairly quickly. I can go back a minute or so later and move a hammer around if I want to and it stays where I put it. And, as Mr. Doss mentioned, it is strong as hell, but the hammer can still be removed easily with the magic pliers. And, yes, Bolduc is also an awesome glue for soundboards, pinblocks, bridges, (chairs, picture frames, skateboards.....)



    ------------------------------
    Ted Kidwell, RPT
    California State University, Sacramento
    Capistrano Hall, rm. 153
    6000 J Street
    Sacramento, CA 95819-6015
    916.278.6737

    ------------------------------




  • 50.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Posted 08-09-2015 20:11

    For clarification: When I said "tight" fit, I did not mean tight to where all the glue squeezes out. I mean about a .003" difference in diameter between the holes and the shanks, or to where the hammer glides up and down freely on the shank, but there is minimum up and down or twist motion of the hammer. It is not hard to achieve this fit; when ordering the hammers, you specify that you're going to be using new shanks, and usually the fit will be great when you get them back, and certainly good enough to where hot hide glue will work and last! But if the shanks are too tight, such as what happens sometimes with upright actions, you take care of this problem using the shank reducer, using a test shank to determine how the reducer ought to be set to achieve the proper fit, then going over each of the shanks you're going to use with the reducer set in a high speed electric drill.  The joints will be "tight", consistent, and yes, there will room for the glue, yet there will be some squeeze-out to where there is a nice, neat glue collar.

    By the way, when I said that if you're not careful in obtaining a "tight" or snug, consistent joint between the hammer and the shank, you've done a bad job, I was referring to those technicians who tend to pay scant attention to the fit up of their shanks, thinking it ought not to matter much, who then choose a glue based on whether it will hold their hammer assemblies together even if the fit up is sloppy/careless. I was not referring to long-standing factories such as Steinway or veteran technicians who do what they do deliberately, for certain, specific reasons and have the equipment to do things that way and make it work. There are always exceptions to the rule, and Steinway especially seems to pride themselves in being the exception to the rule in many facets of piano building, including the way they hang their hammers. Perhaps this is what they think it means to be "exceptional". 

    I understand that Steinway does things differently. Even with Steinway, I don't agree with that way of hanging (or perhaps I should say "hung") their hammers, just as I don't agree with their doweling their pinblocks to the case, or their use of teflon bushings during the late 60's-early to mid seventies.  Different is not always better, and if you don't have Steinway equipment for hanging hammers, don't hang the hammers loosely and expect Steinway results.   ..I'd like to ask, Is it alright to disagree with Steinway on this thread?

    With regards to using Bolduc glue on hammers, do what you wish with Bolduc glue with picture frames, furniture or skateboards (sounds like you have some kids or grandkids that are a little rough on their toys!) but I don't believe a technician should use a glue in an aspect of the piano that it was not intended for. Bolduc glue, specifically, was made for pinblocks, soundboards, bridges and other major parts of the piano that a person would not want to pull apart unless he was willing to destroy them in the process.  In any aspect of the piano where the parts might want to be separated but reused, including hammers, I believe it to be best policy to use a glue that is strong enough to do the job, yet will release without having to use methods that stress, fracture, or in any other way damage the part. Hot hide glue fits this criteria perfectly. Bolduc glue and pliers do not.

    ------------------------------
    Alex Doss

    Complete Piano Service
    Spring Hill, FL. 352-683-6915
    ------------------------------




  • 51.  RE: Best Glue for hanging hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-13-2015 09:40

    In an earlier post I said I'd post pictures of my procedure for removing hammers glued on with Bolduc, Woodlok etc..  I use two hair irons ( the small one came for free with the big one ) hammer removing pliers, a shank reducer and sometimes a heat gun.  I use small clamps to keep the irons on the hammer.  I leave the iron on the hammer for about thirty seconds for the first one and then alternate between the two irons as I move down the line.  The time it takes to remove one hammer and glue collar is enough time  to soften the glue for the next one.  The object is to remove the hammer and glue collar without removing or damaging any wood on the shank.  The shank reducer is used as it is pictured without the collar so as to remove only glue and not wood.  On occasion if the glue collars are difficult I remove all the hammers first and the come back with the heat gun and shank reducer for a second pass. Care must be taken not to scorch the wood around the collar. Keep the heat gun moving at all times.  Ten to fifteen seconds is all the time it takes to soften the glue.  If I'm doing it right the pliers require minimal pressure to remove the hammer.  If I have to really squeeze, then something isn't right.  Likewise with the shank reducer if the glue doesn't come of cleanly and easily something's wrong.  If the hammers were glued on with molding and trim glue expect to double the heating time and to work much harder removing the collars.  After the hammers are off it's easy to check the shank bushing and repair as necessary.  When it's time to glue up the new set I find that having the shank at it's original diameter makes for easy installation with very little if any reaming required assuming good hammer boring with the right size bit.  I'm sure there are better methods out there but hope that someone out there finds this helpful.

    ------------------------------
    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL