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How weather affects pianos

  • 1.  How weather affects pianos

    Posted 02-18-2003 19:08
    From Clyde Hollinger <cedel@supernet.com>
    
    Paul,
    
    Most of the pianos I service that have been stable in previous Februarys are
    flat this time around, some severely.  Too cold too long, and it makes a
    difference.  If I tune them to A-440, they'll be sharp next February, if we have
    a normal winter, which explains why I float the pitch (in case someone wants to
    have a go-around on that subject again).  I leave them a little flat, but they
    won't be flat when the weather returns to normal.  (They won't be in tune,
    either.)
    
    Also, I have gotten requests for *extra* tunings from clients who normally have
    their pianos tuned in mid to late summer.  The change in the tuning between a
    humid season and an exceedingly cold and therefore dry piano climate becomes
    more than they can stand.
    
    Regards,
    Clyde
    
    "Paul Chick (EarthLink)" wrote:
    
    > Terry, Clyde, Others
    >
    > Tell us what you see these weather conditions doing to the pianos you just
    > tuned.  We experienced temps dropping from the mid 30's to -17 degrees, and
    > temps stayed 10 degrees or lower for about 3 weeks. Now they are moving up
    > to the low 30's again. Furnaces run almost constantly and the humidity
    > plunges.  There has been a rash of sticky keys, tight actions, knocks and
    > squeeks, tuning drifts-many needing pitch raises. It's like you haven't
    > tuned the piano for years.  You mention temp changes of  20-25 dgrees.  With
    > that would come some humidity changes.  I'm curious to know how this affects
    > the pianos in your area.
    >
    > Paul Chick
    > Southeastern Minnesota
    


  • 2.  How weather affects pianos

    Posted 02-18-2003 19:30
    From "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>
    
    And how do these people that request *extra* tunings feel about humidity control - whether it be whole house or installed on/in the piano?
    
    Terry Farrell
      
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: "Clyde Hollinger" <cedel@supernet.com>
    To: "Pianotech" <pianotech@ptg.org>
    Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 9:08 PM
    Subject: How weather affects pianos
    
    
    > Paul,
    > 
    > Most of the pianos I service that have been stable in previous Februarys are
    > flat this time around, some severely.  Too cold too long, and it makes a
    > difference.  If I tune them to A-440, they'll be sharp next February, if we have
    > a normal winter, which explains why I float the pitch (in case someone wants to
    > have a go-around on that subject again).  I leave them a little flat, but they
    > won't be flat when the weather returns to normal.  (They won't be in tune,
    > either.)
    > 
    > Also, I have gotten requests for *extra* tunings from clients who normally have
    > their pianos tuned in mid to late summer.  The change in the tuning between a
    > humid season and an exceedingly cold and therefore dry piano climate becomes
    > more than they can stand.
    > 
    > Regards,
    > Clyde
    > 
    > "Paul Chick (EarthLink)" wrote:
    > 
    > > Terry, Clyde, Others
    > >
    > > Tell us what you see these weather conditions doing to the pianos you just
    > > tuned.  We experienced temps dropping from the mid 30's to -17 degrees, and
    > > temps stayed 10 degrees or lower for about 3 weeks. Now they are moving up
    > > to the low 30's again. Furnaces run almost constantly and the humidity
    > > plunges.  There has been a rash of sticky keys, tight actions, knocks and
    > > squeeks, tuning drifts-many needing pitch raises. It's like you haven't
    > > tuned the piano for years.  You mention temp changes of  20-25 dgrees.  With
    > > that would come some humidity changes.  I'm curious to know how this affects
    > > the pianos in your area.
    > >
    > > Paul Chick
    > > Southeastern Minnesota
    > 
    > _______________________________________________
    > pianotech list info: http://www.ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/pianotech
    > 
    


  • 3.  How weather affects pianos

    Posted 02-19-2003 04:56
    From Clyde Hollinger <cedel@supernet.com>
    
    They don't seem interested, even though I think I mention it without fail, and leave them the information if they *do* seem interested.
    
    Clyde
    
    Farrell wrote:
    
    > And how do these people that request *extra* tunings feel about humidity control - whether it be whole house or installed on/in the piano?
    >
    > Terry Farrell
    >
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: "Clyde Hollinger" <cedel@supernet.com>
    > To: "Pianotech" <pianotech@ptg.org>
    > Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 9:08 PM
    > Subject: How weather affects pianos
    >
    > > Paul,
    > >
    > > Most of the pianos I service that have been stable in previous Februarys are
    > > flat this time around, some severely.  Too cold too long, and it makes a
    > > difference.  If I tune them to A-440, they'll be sharp next February, if we have
    > > a normal winter, which explains why I float the pitch (in case someone wants to
    > > have a go-around on that subject again).  I leave them a little flat, but they
    > > won't be flat when the weather returns to normal.  (They won't be in tune,
    > > either.)
    > >
    > > Also, I have gotten requests for *extra* tunings from clients who normally have
    > > their pianos tuned in mid to late summer.  The change in the tuning between a
    > > humid season and an exceedingly cold and therefore dry piano climate becomes
    > > more than they can stand.
    > >
    > > Regards,
    > > Clyde
    > >
    > > "Paul Chick (EarthLink)" wrote:
    > >
    > > > Terry, Clyde, Others
    > > >
    > > > Tell us what you see these weather conditions doing to the pianos you just
    > > > tuned.  We experienced temps dropping from the mid 30's to -17 degrees, and
    > > > temps stayed 10 degrees or lower for about 3 weeks. Now they are moving up
    > > > to the low 30's again. Furnaces run almost constantly and the humidity
    > > > plunges.  There has been a rash of sticky keys, tight actions, knocks and
    > > > squeeks, tuning drifts-many needing pitch raises. It's like you haven't
    > > > tuned the piano for years.  You mention temp changes of  20-25 dgrees.  With
    > > > that would come some humidity changes.  I'm curious to know how this affects
    > > > the pianos in your area.
    > > >
    > > > Paul Chick
    > > > Southeastern Minnesota
    > >
    > > _______________________________________________
    > > pianotech list info: http://www.ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/pianotech
    > >
    > _______________________________________________
    > pianotech list info: http://www.ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/pianotech
    


  • 4.  How weather affects pianos

    Posted 02-19-2003 05:30
    From "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>
    
    That's a shame, because a good DC installation can really benefit a piano that experiences RH extremes. Oh well. Cha-ching, cha-ching!
    
    Terry Farrell
      
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: "Clyde Hollinger" <cedel@supernet.com>
    To: "Pianotech" <pianotech@ptg.org>
    Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 6:55 AM
    Subject: Re: How weather affects pianos
    
    
    > They don't seem interested, even though I think I mention it without fail, and leave them the information if they *do* seem interested.
    > 
    > Clyde
    > 
    > Farrell wrote:
    > 
    > > And how do these people that request *extra* tunings feel about humidity control - whether it be whole house or installed on/in the piano?
    > >
    > > Terry Farrell
    > >
    > > ----- Original Message -----
    > > From: "Clyde Hollinger" <cedel@supernet.com>
    > > To: "Pianotech" <pianotech@ptg.org>
    > > Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 9:08 PM
    > > Subject: How weather affects pianos
    > >
    > > > Paul,
    > > >
    > > > Most of the pianos I service that have been stable in previous Februarys are
    > > > flat this time around, some severely.  Too cold too long, and it makes a
    > > > difference.  If I tune them to A-440, they'll be sharp next February, if we have
    > > > a normal winter, which explains why I float the pitch (in case someone wants to
    > > > have a go-around on that subject again).  I leave them a little flat, but they
    > > > won't be flat when the weather returns to normal.  (They won't be in tune,
    > > > either.)
    > > >
    > > > Also, I have gotten requests for *extra* tunings from clients who normally have
    > > > their pianos tuned in mid to late summer.  The change in the tuning between a
    > > > humid season and an exceedingly cold and therefore dry piano climate becomes
    > > > more than they can stand.
    > > >
    > > > Regards,
    > > > Clyde
    > > >
    > > > "Paul Chick (EarthLink)" wrote:
    > > >
    > > > > Terry, Clyde, Others
    > > > >
    > > > > Tell us what you see these weather conditions doing to the pianos you just
    > > > > tuned.  We experienced temps dropping from the mid 30's to -17 degrees, and
    > > > > temps stayed 10 degrees or lower for about 3 weeks. Now they are moving up
    > > > > to the low 30's again. Furnaces run almost constantly and the humidity
    > > > > plunges.  There has been a rash of sticky keys, tight actions, knocks and
    > > > > squeeks, tuning drifts-many needing pitch raises. It's like you haven't
    > > > > tuned the piano for years.  You mention temp changes of  20-25 dgrees.  With
    > > > > that would come some humidity changes.  I'm curious to know how this affects
    > > > > the pianos in your area.
    > > > >
    > > > > Paul Chick
    > > > > Southeastern Minnesota
    > > >
    > > > _______________________________________________
    > > > pianotech list info: http://www.ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/pianotech
    > > >
    > > _______________________________________________
    > > pianotech list info: http://www.ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/pianotech
    > 
    > _______________________________________________
    > pianotech list info: http://www.ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/pianotech
    


  • 5.  How weather affects pianos

    Posted 02-19-2003 08:41
    From "Cy Shuster" <cy.shuster@theshusters.org>
    
    My son asked an interesting question: how does RH affect the tone of wood?
    We're all familiar with the effects of dimensional changes, but say you just
    had a wooden xylophone, where each piece of wood was unconstrained at all
    edges.  Would the tone be different at 10%RH and 80%RH, and if so, how?
    
    --Cy Shuster--
    Rochester, MN (soon to be Bluefield, WV)
    
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>
    To: "Pianotech" <pianotech@ptg.org>
    Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 6:29 AM
    Subject: Re: How weather affects pianos
    
    
    > That's a shame, because a good DC installation can really benefit a piano
    that experiences RH extremes. Oh well. Cha-ching, cha-ching!
    >
    > Terry Farrell
    >
    


  • 6.  New DC question was RE: How weather affects pianos

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-19-2003 10:40
    From Don <pianotuna@accesscomm.ca>
    
    Hi Alan,
    
    Thats' why DC systems now have back/bottom covers. The humidity level will
    tend to be equal on both sides of the board at least in an upright. It
    improves the grand system by a factor of 3 to 5 times in my experience.
    
    At 10:24 AM 2/19/2003 -0600, you wrote:
    >Seems like the DC sets up an environment where the RH on one side of the
    >board can be substantially different than on the other side. Wonder if this
    >has any short or long-term consequences or does the wood absorb (or release)
    >moisture evenly, regardless?
    >
    >Inquiring minds want to know.*
    >
    >Alan Barnard
    >Salem, MO
    >
    >*Never kill a silent comedian: A mime is a terrible thing to waste.
    >
    >-----Original Message-----
    >From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org]On
    >Behalf Of Cy Shuster
    >Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 9:41 AM
    >To: Pianotech
    >Subject: Re: How weather affects pianos
    >
    >
    >My son asked an interesting question: how does RH affect the tone of wood?
    >We're all familiar with the effects of dimensional changes, but say you just
    >had a wooden xylophone, where each piece of wood was unconstrained at all
    >edges.  Would the tone be different at 10%RH and 80%RH, and if so, how?
    >
    >--Cy Shuster--
    >Rochester, MN (soon to be Bluefield, WV)
    >
    >----- Original Message -----
    >From: "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>
    >To: "Pianotech" <pianotech@ptg.org>
    >Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 6:29 AM
    >Subject: Re: How weather affects pianos
    >
    >
    >> That's a shame, because a good DC installation can really benefit a piano
    >that experiences RH extremes. Oh well. Cha-ching, cha-ching!
    >>
    >> Terry Farrell
    >>
    >
    >
    >_______________________________________________
    >pianotech list info: http://www.ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/pianotech
    >
    >_______________________________________________
    >pianotech list info: http://www.ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/pianotech
    >
    >
    
    Regards,
    Don Rose, B.Mus., A.M.U.S., A.MUS., R.M.T., R.P.T.
    
    mailto:pianotuna@accesscomm.ca
    http://us.geocities.com/drpt1948/
    
    3004 Grant Rd.
    REGINA, SK
    S4S 5G7
    306-352-3620 or 1-888-29t-uner
    


  • 7.  How weather affects pianos

    Posted 02-19-2003 10:22
    From Ron Nossaman <RNossaman@cox.net>
    
    >My son asked an interesting question: how does RH affect the tone of wood?
    >We're all familiar with the effects of dimensional changes, but say you just
    >had a wooden xylophone, where each piece of wood was unconstrained at all
    >edges.  Would the tone be different at 10%RH and 80%RH, and if so, how?
    >
    >--Cy Shuster--
    
    Hi Cy,
    Easy enough to try it and find out. Since the MC level of wood affects both 
    it's modulus of elasticity and mass, changes in MC should affect the 
    resonant frequency of wooden xylophone bars. Should be measurable with an 
    ETD. Trouble is, it won't tell you much that's applicable to pianos, since 
    there isn't anything made of wood in a piano that's supposed to resonate at 
    a specific frequency. The tone quality of pianos certainly changes with MC 
    swings, but for different reasons.
    
    Ron N
    


  • 8.  How weather affects pianos

    Posted 02-19-2003 09:51
    From Wimblees@aol.com
    
    We all have to deal with customers asking why pianos go out of tune. 
    Sometimes customers do not understand why a piano goes out of tune, or blames 
    you for doing a b ad jib, when there is a drastic change in the weather. That 
    is why I've written an article, that, I think, explains in layman's terms why 
    a piano goes out of tune. I've copied the article below. I hand a customer 
    the article when they ask questions. Comments are welcomed. (You're welcome 
    to copy the article and use it). 
    
    Wim 
    
    
    Why does a piano go out of tune?
    By Willem Blees RPT
    
    Have you ever noticed how a piano seemed to go out of tune, but then shortly 
    thereafter, it sounded better again? Blame it on the changes in the weather. 
    It's the changes in temperature and humidity that cause a piano to go out of 
    tune.  This article explains exactly what goes on inside a piano that causes 
    this to happen.
    
    A piano is made out of wood, steel and cast iron. On a grand piano, when you 
    lift up the lid, you can see the strings, which are made out of steel. The 
    strings are attached to the cast iron plate, which is that large gold "harp". 
    If you look through the strings, you will see wood.  That is called the 
    soundboard. This is the soundboard that everybody worries about cracking. 
    (That is a topic for discussion some other time).
    
    It is this soundboard that creates all the tuning problems. Although you 
    can't see it with the naked eye, the soundboard is crowned, which means it is 
    higher in the middle than at the edges.  To give you an idea of how much of a 
    crown there is, if the arc of the soundboard was part of a ball, that ball 
    would be about 65 feet in diameter.  It is this crown that produces the sound 
    of the piano. If there were no crown on a soundboard, the tone of the piano 
    would be very dull. 
    
    We all know that wood absorbs and releases moisture. During the moist summer 
    months, wood absorbs moisture and expands. This is very evident in the summer 
    when you have trouble opening windows and doors. When the soundboard absorbs 
    moisture, it also wants to expand. And, like a door, which expands against 
    the frame, which is also expanding, the soundboard expands against the sides 
    of the case. But because the soundboard cannot expand outwards, and because 
    it is crowned, the only way the soundboard can expand is for the middle to go 
    up.
    
    When you look inside the grand piano, you will see that the strings cross 
    over a long piece of wood with little pins sticking out of it. This long 
    piece of wood is called the bridge. The bridge transfers the vibrations of 
    the strings, which are set in motion by the hammers, to the soundboard, which 
    in turn amplifies the sound of the strings. (That is basically how a piano 
    creates sound).  What you cannot see, however, is that the strings actually 
    go up and over this bridge. In other words, if you were a flea, you would 
    need to go up hill to get to the bridge and down hill once you have crossed 
    over the bridge.
    
    Since the bridge is attached to the soundboard, and the strings cross over 
    the bridge, when the soundboard expands and the crown of the soundboard 
    increases, bridge will be pushed up. When the bridge is pushed up, the 
    tension of the strings is increased. And just as a rubber band will produce a 
    higher pitch when it is stretched tighter, the strings will increase in pitch 
    when they are stretched tighter by the pushed up bridge. And whenever the 
    tension of strings is changed, we perceive that a piano is out of tune. 
    
    This effect on the soundboard is reversed when the humidity is very low, as 
    in the winter.  Even though the outside humidity during the winter months is 
    about the same as during the summer, when moist cold air is heated, it looses 
    its moisture content. It is not unusual for a house to have a relative 
    humidity of less than 25% during the winter months. 
    
    The greater the change in temperature, or humidity, the greater the effect on 
    the soundboard. Since the temperature and humidity changes constantly, the 
    piano never really stays in tune. But since most homes now have air 
    conditioning, and the humidity and temperature are controlled more, the 
    changes are not as dramatic as they used to be. Still, every time the 
    temperature or the humidity changes, the piano goes out of tune.
    
    So the next time your piano goes out of tune shortly after the piano was 
    tuned, think back about the changes in temperature and humidity. Most likely 
    it was the fault of the weather. But when you do hear the piano out of tune, 
    the piano tuner should be called, because there is nothing worse than 
    listening to an out of tune piano. 
    


  • 9.  How weather affects pianos

    Posted 02-19-2003 10:33
    From Ron Nossaman <RNossaman@cox.net>
    
    >That's why I ALWAYS record temp/humidity at the time of the tuning.
    >
    >
    >Conrad Hoffsommer - Music Technician
    
    
    Exactly, and why I leave a the record in the piano, so the customer and I 
    can discover it TOGETHER if I have to go back. Actually, I leave two 
    records in the piano. A business card on the plate under the music desk in 
    a grand, or under the lid of a vertical, and a stealth record on a piece of 
    tape or sticker on either the underside of the music desk, or back side of 
    the front board where it won't be noticed should the card with the humidity 
    documentation mysteriously evaporate between the tuning and the complaint. 
    It's also on the invoice. This doesn't come up often, since I spend a lot 
    of time discussing humidity changes and their effects with customers. But 
    when it does, I'm covered.
    
    Ron N
    


  • 10.  How weather affects pianos

    Posted 02-19-2003 11:57
    From Conrad Hoffsommer <hoffsoco@martin.luther.edu>
    
    Ron,
    
    one more thing;
    
    At 11:32 2/19/2003 -0600, you wrote:
    >>That's why I ALWAYS record temp/humidity at the time of the tuning.
    >
    >Exactly, and why I leave a the record in the piano, so the customer and I 
    >can discover it TOGETHER if I have to go back. Actually, I leave two 
    >records in the piano. A business card on the plate under the music desk in 
    >a grand, or under the lid of a vertical, and a stealth record on a piece 
    >of tape or sticker on either the underside of the music desk, or back side 
    >of the front board where it won't be noticed should the card with the 
    >humidity documentation mysteriously evaporate between the tuning and the 
    >complaint. It's also on the invoice. This doesn't come up often, since I 
    >spend a lot of time discussing humidity changes and their effects with 
    >customers. But when it does, I'm covered.
    >
    >Ron N
    
    
    
    ...and.... if all paper has mysteriously disappeared - as an RCT user, I 
    have along my laptop containing their service records.
    
    I can show them not only past temperature and humidity readings, but what 
    pitch A4 was when I started the tuning.
    
    
    
    Conrad Hoffsommer PTG RPT, MPT, CCT
    Decorah, IA
    
    Certified Calibration Technician (CCT) for Bio-powered Digitally Activated 
    Lever Action Tone Generation Systems
    


  • 11.  How weather affects pianos

    Posted 02-19-2003 09:52
    From Wimblees@aol.com
    
    In a message dated 2/19/03 9:42:07 AM Central Standard Time, 
    cy.shuster@theshusters.org writes:
    
    > Cy Shuster--
    > Rochester, MN (soon to be Bluefield, WV)
    > 
    > 
    
    You mean Rochester, MN is changing it's name to Bluefield, WV? :)
    
    Wim 
    


  • 12.  How weather affects pianos

    Posted 02-19-2003 09:53
    From Conrad Hoffsommer <hoffsoco@martin.luther.edu>
    
    At 11:51 2/19/2003 -0500, you wrote:
    >We all have to deal with customers asking why pianos go out of tune. 
    >Sometimes customers do not understand why a piano goes out of tune, or 
    >blames you for doing a b ad jib,
    
    
    >Wim
    
    
    That's why I ALWAYS record temp/humidity at the time of the tuning.
    
    
    Conrad Hoffsommer - Music Technician
    Luther College, 700 College Dr., Decorah, Iowa 52101-1045
    Vox-(563)-387-1204 // Fax (563)-387-1076
    
    - People never grow up, they just learn how to act in public. -Bryan White
    


  • 13.  How weather affects pianos

    Posted 02-19-2003 09:58
    From Wimblees@aol.com
    
    In a message dated 2/19/03 10:55:18 AM Central Standard Time, 
    hoffsoco@martin.luther.edu writes:
    
    > That's why I ALWAYS record temp/humidity at the time of the tuning.
    > 
    > 
    > Conrad Hoffsommer - Music Technician
    > 
    
    But recording it, and knowing what is actually happening, are two different 
    things. Perhaps you should do both: Record, and hand them the paper. 
    
    Wim 
    


  • 14.  How weather affects pianos

    Posted 02-19-2003 09:59
    From Conrad Hoffsommer <hoffsoco@martin.luther.edu>
    
    At 11:58 2/19/2003 -0500, you wrote:
    >In a message dated 2/19/03 10:55:18 AM Central Standard Time, 
    >hoffsoco@martin.luther.edu writes:
    >
    >>That's why I ALWAYS record temp/humidity at the time of the tuning.
    >>
    >>
    >>Conrad Hoffsommer - Music Technician
    >
    >
    >But recording it, and knowing what is actually happening, are two 
    >different things. Perhaps you should do both: Record, and hand them the paper.
    >
    >Wim
    
    
    
    It's recorded on the invoice.
    
    
    Conrad Hoffsommer - Music Technician
    Luther College, 700 College Dr., Decorah, Iowa 52101-1045
    Vox-(563)-387-1204 // Fax (563)-387-1076
    
    - People never grow up, they just learn how to act in public. -Bryan White
    


  • 15.  How weather affects pianos

    Posted 02-19-2003 10:13
    From gordon stelter <lclgcnp@yahoo.com>
    
    I'm quite certain that, as humidity rises, wood
    creates a duller "thud" as opposed to a nice, clear
    knock. But in a piano this would be hard to quantify
    as the hammers also get softer with humidity, and the
    board gains crown, increasing bearing. 
         But I find that, overall, pianos sound better
    with lower humidity. Right about the recommended 42%.
    IMHO.
         Thump
    
    --- Cy Shuster <cy.shuster@theshusters.org> wrote:
    > My son asked an interesting question: how does RH
    > affect the tone of wood?
    > We're all familiar with the effects of dimensional
    > changes, but say you just
    > had a wooden xylophone, where each piece of wood was
    > unconstrained at all
    > edges.  Would the tone be different at 10%RH and
    > 80%RH, and if so, how?
    > 
    > --Cy Shuster--
    > Rochester, MN (soon to be Bluefield, WV)
    > 
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>
    > To: "Pianotech" <pianotech@ptg.org>
    > Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 6:29 AM
    > Subject: Re: How weather affects pianos
    > 
    > 
    > > That's a shame, because a good DC installation can
    > really benefit a piano
    > that experiences RH extremes. Oh well. Cha-ching,
    > cha-ching!
    > >
    > > Terry Farrell
    > >
    > 
    > 
    > _______________________________________________
    > pianotech list info:
    http://www.ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/pianotech
    
    
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