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string termination

  • 1.  string termination

    Posted 08-13-2005 18:12
    From "Carl Meyer" <cmpiano@comcast.net>
    
    A lot of things about string terminations have bugged me for some time.
    
    Ron Overs (who I respect) promotes hardening of the capo bar, yet the 
    agraffe is a relatively soft material (brass).  The difference is that the 
    capo is straight and the agraffe is round.  Wouldn't the agraffe last longer 
    if it were heavily plated with chrome, nickel or??  Oh I forgot, piano techs 
    love brass, felt and wood.
    
    Now under normal circumstances, the piano string is terminated (pivoted) on 
    the top surface of the agraffe.  Let's call that North.  Let's call the 
    bottom of the agraffe South.  The other two surfaces would be called east 
    and west.
    
    At the bridge, the string is terminated at maybe SSE (south south east).
    
    Wapin claims that their vertical bridge pin encourages the string to vibrate 
    in the horizontal direction quicker before the energy has been dissipated in 
    the vertical mode and hence -longer sustain.
    
    Let's make it a given that the impact of the hammer is in a northern 
    direction.
    
    Stuart of Australia claims that their bridge termination increases the 
    vertical vibration of the string.   Hmmmm?  How does that effect the 
    sustain????
    
    My esteemed colleuge from one of the fly over states suggests that a string 
    starts out vibrating vertically, slowly starts to drift horizontally but 
    never gets to true horizontal.  He also suggests that a string tends to 
    vibrate at 90 degrees of its termination.  I want to find out if that is 
    true.
    
    I don't really know, but it has been my assumption (maybe in error) that the 
    string vibrated vertically, slowly drifts elliptically, approaches 
    horizontal, then elliptically in the other direction and then returns to 
    vertical at a much lower level.  This would then be a cyclical phenomenon. 
    Sorry for the flurry of five dollar words.
    
    I've been thinking of a new bridge termination scheme for rebuilding  but 
    I'm not going to proceed till I answer a basic question.
    
    Here's my question:  A vibrating string has two terminations.  It is excited 
    in the northern direction.  (Ignore the strike point)  What effect on tone 
    will be the termination of the two ends of the string????? Both north, one 
    north and the other south, east or west????   Or no big difference??
    
    I have recently found plans on the net to build an led stroboscope.  I will 
    build this and look at a string under vibration. I could stretch a wire 
    across my garage and look at it with different terminations.
    
    If some of you deep thinkers have an answer to my question that makes common 
    sense, I won't have to do this.  Give me your feedback.  Thanks
    


  • 2.  string termination

    Posted 08-13-2005 18:42
    From "Joe And Penny Goss" <imatunr@srvinet.com>
    
    Well Carl,
    If you wants common cents <G>
    When I's plucks my bass pulling the string in a up motion on my bass I gets
    a ping sound. If it is pulled to the side, more of a deep full bassey sound.
    But that is probibly not the kind of answer you are after. Also the same
    kind of results of a sort if the string is excited near the bridge, a thin
    sound. And away from the bridge a deeper fuller sound. Your search may raise
    more questions for you.
    Hope you can find your answer.
    Joe Goss RPT
    Mother Goose Tools
    imatunr@srvinet.com
    www.mothergoosetools.com
    


  • 3.  string termination

    Posted 08-14-2005 16:10
    From "Carl Meyer" <cmpiano@comcast.net>
    
    Thanks, Joe.  Common cents don't keep up with inflation these days.
    
    Yes, I've got lotsa response.
    
    Carl Meyer PTG assoc
    Santa Clara, Ca.
    
    
    


  • 4.  string termination

    Posted 08-14-2005 17:12
    From "Joe And Penny Goss" <imatunr@srvinet.com>
    
    Yeh I know. See what you started, The Quest for the Holy String Termination.
    <G>
    Like I said Good luck.
    Joe Goss RPT
    Mother Goose Tools
    imatunr@srvinet.com
    www.mothergoosetools.com
    


  • 5.  string termination

    Posted 08-13-2005 20:56
    From Overs Pianos <sec@overspianos.com.au>
    
    Hi Carl,
    
    >A lot of things about string terminations have bugged me for some time.
    
    Me too. This is a topic which raises the level of pianotech list interest.
    
    >Ron Overs promotes hardening of the capo bar, yet the agraffe is a 
    >relatively soft material (brass).  The difference is that the capo 
    >is straight and the agraffe is round.  Wouldn't the agraffe last 
    >longer if it were heavily plated with chrome, nickel or??
    
    It would last longer if it was plated with a hard or harden-able 
    material. I think brass is a very poor material for string 
    terminations. After re-profiling (both new and used agraffes) we have 
    been plating them with Electroless Nickel for some years (since about 
    1996). This plating is harden-able, and it plates with a uniform 
    thickness in the string holes. Normal electoplating won't result in a 
    uniform build-up of plating in the holes, which is why Chrome isn't a 
    viable alternative plating material. Electroless Nickel plating is a 
    process which, once started, is a purely chemical plating process. 
    This is why it results in a useful build of plating in the holes.
    
    For the most recently remanufactured piano we built, I decided to try 
    just shaping the brass agraffe holes without plating and hardening. 
    The results were very disappointing. The best results we have had to 
    date are when the agraffes are Electonickel plated. We've been 
    getting them plated with a thickness of 0.05 mm (2 thou). The next 
    set we do will be plated with 0.75 mm to increase the strength of the 
    plated surface. I have been suspicious that the plating is on 
    occasion collapsing and flaking off, due to collapse of the soft 
    brass substrate.
    
    >Now under normal circumstances, the piano string is terminated 
    >(pivoted) on the top surface of the agraffe.  Let's call that North. 
    >Let's call the bottom of the agraffe South.  The other two surfaces 
    >would be called east and west.
    >
    >At the bridge, the string is terminated at maybe SSE (south south east).
    >
    >Wapin claims that their vertical bridge pin encourages the string to 
    >vibrate in the horizontal direction quicker before the energy has 
    >been dissipated in the vertical mode and hence -longer sustain.
    >
    >Let's make it a given that the impact of the hammer is in a northern 
    >direction.
    >
    >Stuart of Australia claims that their bridge termination increases 
    >the vertical vibration of the string.   Hmmmm?  How does that effect 
    >the sustain????
    
    I've watched struck strings on the Stuart piano, and my observations 
    are that the strings in his instruments behave like any other 
    standard string termination. I have no reason to suspect the Wapin 
    termination will be any different either.
    
    >My esteemed colleuge from one of the fly over states suggests that a 
    >string starts out vibrating vertically, slowly starts to drift 
    >horizontally but never gets to true horizontal.  He also suggests 
    >that a string tends to vibrate at 90 degrees of its termination.  I 
    >want to find out if that is true.
    
    The string certainly starts out vibrating in the vertical plane, then 
    changes to an elliptical vibrating mode. It appears to degenerate 
    into an essentially circular mode at the final decay stage.
    
    >I don't really know, but it has been my assumption (maybe in error) 
    >that the string vibrated vertically, slowly drifts elliptically, 
    >approaches horizontal, then elliptically in the other direction and 
    >then returns to vertical at a much lower level.  This would then be 
    >a cyclical phenomenon. Sorry for the flurry of five dollar words.
    >
    >I've been thinking of a new bridge termination scheme for rebuilding 
    >but I'm not going to proceed till I answer a basic question.
    
    I suspect that you are about to join a few others, who are on this 
    Darwinian quest.
    
    >Here's my question:  A vibrating string has two terminations.  It is 
    >excited in the northern direction.  (Ignore the strike point)  What 
    >effect on tone will be the termination of the two ends of the 
    >string????? Both north, one north and the other south, east or 
    >west????   Or no big difference??
    >
    >I have recently found plans on the net to build an led stroboscope. 
    >I will build this and look at a string under vibration. I could 
    >stretch a wire across my garage and look at it with different 
    >terminations.
    >
    >If some of you deep thinkers have an answer to my question that 
    >makes common sense, I won't have to do this.  Give me your feedback.
    
    It is a worthy field of investigation Carl. Conventional bridge pins 
    suffer severe damage at the termination point. An intermediate 
    solution would be hardened bridge pins, but it will be a costly 
    exercise.
    
    Ron O.
    -- 
    OVERS PIANOS - SYDNEY
        Grand Piano Manufacturers
    _______________________
    
    Web http://overspianos.com.au
    mailto:ron@overspianos.com.au
    _______________________
    


  • 6.  string termination

    Posted 08-14-2005 04:46
    From "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>
    
    Comments interspersed below: 
    
    >> Carl Meyer wrote:
    > Ron O replied:
    
    >>A lot of things about string terminations have bugged me for some time.
    > 
    > Me too. This is a topic which raises the level of pianotech list interest.
    > 
    >>Ron Overs promotes hardening of the capo bar, yet the agraffe is a 
    >>relatively soft material (brass).  The difference is that the capo 
    >>is straight and the agraffe is round.  Wouldn't the agraffe last 
    >>longer if it were heavily plated with chrome, nickel or??
    > 
    > It would last longer if it was plated with a hard or harden-able 
    > material. I think brass is a very poor material for string 
    > terminations. After re-profiling (both new and used agraffes) we have 
    > been plating them with Electroless Nickel for some years (since about 
    > 1996). This plating is harden-able, and it plates with a uniform 
    > thickness in the string holes. Normal electoplating won't result in a 
    > uniform build-up of plating in the holes, which is why Chrome isn't a 
    > viable alternative plating material. Electroless Nickel plating is a 
    > process which, once started, is a purely chemical plating process. 
    > This is why it results in a useful build of plating in the holes.
    > 
    > For the most recently remanufactured piano we built, I decided to try 
    > just shaping the brass agraffe holes without plating and hardening. 
    > The results were very disappointing. The best results we have had to 
    > date are when the agraffes are Electonickel plated. We've been 
    > getting them plated with a thickness of 0.05 mm (2 thou). The next 
    > set we do will be plated with 0.75 mm to increase the strength of the 
    > plated surface. I have been suspicious that the plating is on 
    > occasion collapsing and flaking off, due to collapse of the soft 
    > brass substrate.
    
    Ron - a typo? Do you mean the new plating thickness will be 0.075 mm (3 thou)?
    
    Why then not make a agraffe out of steel or some other harder material? That may be difficult for the one-off small-shop piano builder, but if there were a demand to others..... Why would this be so difficult? Why would brass persist so long?
    
    Why not use other termination types like a capo-type bar in all string sections like you see on cheap old American microgrands? What about something more like an upright pressure bar arrangement?
     
    SNIP
     
    >>Here's my question:  A vibrating string has two terminations.  It is 
    >>excited in the northern direction.  (Ignore the strike point)  What 
    >>effect on tone will be the termination of the two ends of the 
    >>string????? Both north, one north and the other south, east or 
    >>west????   Or no big difference??
    >>
    >>I have recently found plans on the net to build an led stroboscope. 
    >>I will build this and look at a string under vibration. I could 
    >>stretch a wire across my garage and look at it with different 
    >>terminations.
    >>
    >>If some of you deep thinkers have an answer to my question that 
    >>makes common sense, I won't have to do this.  Give me your feedback.
    > 
    > It is a worthy field of investigation Carl. Conventional bridge pins 
    > suffer severe damage at the termination point. An intermediate 
    > solution would be hardened bridge pins, but it will be a costly 
    > exercise.
    
    Hardened bridge pins would be costly? I can see such an argument from a Chinese manufacturer, but from a famous American or European manufacturer who "spares no expense to create an uncompromised instrument?" I realize that if a pin costs a nickel or dime rather than two cents, times 500 pins, that would increase the cost of building the piano by $15 - $40....... or am I missing something? Or are the upper-end larger, uncompromising, manufacturers really that cheap?
    
    Terry Farrell


  • 7.  string termination

    Posted 08-14-2005 04:59
    From J Patrick Draine <draine@comcast.net>
    
    FYI, Mason & Hamlin is using stainless steel bridge pins.
    Patrick Draine
    
    On Aug 14, 2005, at 6:46 AM, Farrell wrote:
    
    > > Ron O replied:
    > >
    > > It is a worthy field of investigation Carl. Conventional bridge pins
    > > suffer severe damage at the termination point. An intermediate
    > > solution would be hardened bridge pins, but it will be a costly
    > > exercise.
    >
    > Hardened bridge pins would be costly? I can see such an argument  
    > from a Chinese manufacturer, but from a famous American or European  
    > manufacturer who "spares no expense to create an uncompromised  
    > instrument?" I realize that if a pin costs a nickel or dime rather  
    > than two cents, times 500 pins, that would increase the cost of  
    > building the piano by $15 - $40....... or am I missing something?  
    > Or are the upper-end larger, uncompromising, manufacturers really  
    > that cheap?
    >
    > Terry Farrell
    >
    


  • 8.  string termination

    Posted 08-14-2005 06:30
    From "Cy Shuster" <741662027@theshusters.org>
    
    Why bother with stainless bridge pins when the notch edge itself is still 
    wood?
    
    --Cy--
    
    


  • 9.  string termination

    Posted 08-14-2005 16:45
    From "Carl Meyer" <cmpiano@comcast.net>
    
    


  • 10.  string termination

    Posted 08-14-2005 07:02
    From Overs Pianos <sec@overspianos.com.au>
    
    Terry,
    
    >Ron - a typo? Do you mean the new plating thickness will be 0.075 mm (3 thou)?
    
    Yes that was a typo. The plating thickness is 0.075 mm, or 3 thou. A 
    zero went missing in haste.
    
    >  Why then not make a agraffe out of steel or some other harder material?
    
    I made a custom set of agraffes for a Steinway D we rebuilt for the 
    ABC in 1998. I made them from SAE 1040 steel, which is considerably 
    harder than free machining brass. We plated the 1040 agraffes with 2 
    thou of electroless nickel (and hardened the nickel plating to 60 
    Rockwell). These agraffes were without doubt the cleanest sounding 
    set of agraffes we've ever done. I haven't made any others since 
    then. Can you imagine how much effort it is to turn and machine up a 
    set of these things using a screw cutting lathe and a milling 
    attachment?
    
    >  That may be difficult for the one-off small-shop piano builder, but 
    >if there were a demand to others..... Why would this be so difficult?
    
    The cost in machining agraffes from something harder would probably 
    make manufacturers shy away from using the harder material. Mind you, 
    with today's ceramic cutting tools the task would be more do-able 
    than it was.
    
    >  Why would brass persist so long?
    
    It should be bypassed for the purpose of string terminations. Its a 
    very poor material for the purpose.
    
    >  \Why not use other termination types like a capo-type bar in all 
    >string sections like you see on cheap old American microgrands? What 
    >about something more like an upright pressure bar arrangement?
    
    These would certainly work, but it would give the high enders a bit 
    of an agricultural look wouldn't it? And after all, the piano 
    business is as much about perceived fashion than practically. I just 
    can't see the higher enders taking up full compass capo bars any time 
    soon. Mind you, Stuart has done just that with a full set of agraffes 
    mounted in the underside of the bar. Its is a workable solution.
    
    >Hardened bridge pins would be costly? I can see such an argument 
    >from a Chinese manufacturer, but from a famous American or European 
    >manufacturer who "spares no expense to create an uncompromised 
    >instrument?"
    
    That's just the thing Terry, the high enders claim that they don't 
    spare expense (the brochures tend to be full of cheap sales chat), 
    but its all over the instrument. They would be seem to be pretty 
    careful not to get into anything too difficult (which would put the 
    price of production up).
    
    >  I realize that if a pin costs a nickel or dime rather than two 
    >cents, times 500 pins, that would increase the cost of building the 
    >piano by $15 - $40....... or am I missing something? Or are the 
    >upper-end larger, uncompromising, manufacturers really that cheap?
    
    I suspect they just might be. But then again, the high enders who 
    remain are the ones who have actually survived the slings and arrows 
    of economic fortune. Its easy for us to criticise what we perceive to 
    be cost cutting, but those who didn't do it haven't survived.
    
    Ron O.
    -- 
    OVERS PIANOS - SYDNEY
        Grand Piano Manufacturers
    _______________________
    
    Web http://overspianos.com.au
    mailto:ron@overspianos.com.au
    _______________________
    


  • 11.  string termination

    Posted 08-14-2005 16:01
    From "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>
    
    Re: string terminationWhy not use other termination types like a capo-type bar in all string sections like you see on cheap old American microgrands? What about something more like an upright pressure bar arrangement?
    
    
    These would certainly work, but it would give the high enders a bit of an agricultural look wouldn't it? And after all, the piano business is as much about perceived fashion than practically. I just can't see the higher enders taking up full compass capo bars any time soon. 
    
    Yeah, but the small shop can do as they please - especially if they are building their own plate. Ron N has got me wondering about some major, but not too difficult to do, modifications to existing plates in the tenor and bass sections.
    
    Mind you, Stuart has done just that with a full set of agraffes mounted in the underside of the bar. Its is a workable solution.
    
    Or what material are the Stuart agraffes made? Brass? Same problem? Is he using these in the tenor and bass?


  • 12.  string termination

    Posted 08-14-2005 16:51
    From "Carl Meyer" <cmpiano@comcast.net>
    
    Re: string termination
      


  • 13.  string termination

    Posted 08-14-2005 09:54
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>
    
    > Why then not make a agraffe out of steel or some other harder material? 
    > That may be difficult for the one-off small-shop piano builder, but if 
    > there were a demand to others..... Why would this be so difficult? Why 
    > would brass persist so long?
    
    Cost? Ease of machining?
    
    
    > Why not use other termination types like a capo-type bar in all string 
    > sections like you see on cheap old American microgrands? What about 
    > something more like an upright pressure bar arrangement?
    
    Actually, it looks to me to be quite possible to retrofit an 
    agraffed piano with a termination bar of harder material than the 
    brass agraffe, along the agraffe line, with a pressure bar behind, 
    screwed into the plate. A cast stepped bar would be ideal for 
    matching speaking lengths within the unison, but I'm curious how 
    well a curved bar would work. Just how critical are slightly 
    mismatched speaking lengths within unisons at those string lengths? 
    I'd guess there is some tolerance.
    
    Ron N
    


  • 14.  string termination

    Posted 08-14-2005 16:16
    From "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>
    
    Terry wrote:
    >> Why not use other termination types like a capo-type bar in all string 
    >> sections like you see on cheap old American microgrands? What about 
    >> something more like an upright pressure bar arrangement?
    
    Ron N replied:
    > Actually, it looks to me to be quite possible to retrofit an agraffed 
    > piano with a termination bar of harder material than the brass agraffe, 
    > along the agraffe line, with a pressure bar behind, screwed into the 
    > plate. A cast stepped bar would be ideal for matching speaking lengths 
    > within the unison, but I'm curious how well a curved bar would work. Just 
    > how critical are slightly mismatched speaking lengths within unisons at 
    > those string lengths? I'd guess there is some tolerance.
    
    I guess so. Seems to me we have a lot of uprights around to give us a clue 
    how that would work.
    
    But if that is a concern (and I suspect it is) and we are retrofitting 
    something anyway, what about a stepped arrangement of small bars of hard 
    material. Think of that Baldwin R you remanufactured a little while ago. The 
    rear duplex arrangement. It was just little round loose bar sections laying 
    on the plate (talk about a tunable rear duplex!). You could do a similar 
    thing for the forward string termination in the tenor and bass. Maybe rather 
    than leaving the bar loose on top of the plate, they could be epoxied in 
    place in a little groove in some hard maple. Kinda like some of the 1890s 
    and some newer upright pianos that have a continuous rod set on top of a 
    strip of maple - do the same thing only use a stepped arrangement of short 
    rods - pressure bar between pins and rods. You could even put grooves in the 
    pressure bar to align strings. Or you could always come up with some sort of 
    bridge-pin-like setup to provide guides for string alignment in this area.
    
    Yeah, I know, or I could also! Well, I will.........some day.....
    
    Terry Farrell 
    


  • 15.  string termination

    Posted 08-14-2005 16:43
    From "Carl Meyer" <cmpiano@comcast.net>
    
    


  • 16.  string termination

    Posted 08-14-2005 09:39
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>
    
    >  Conventional bridge pins 
    > suffer severe damage at the termination point. An intermediate solution 
    > would be hardened bridge pins, but it will be a costly exercise.
    > 
    > Ron O.
    
    Hi Ron,
    It's true that speaking side bridge pins wear more than back side 
    pins, but back side pins wear as well. I think cyclic dimensional 
    changes of conventional bridge capping is responsible for at least 
    half the wear we see in these pins. Better capping material would, I 
    think, be the first step with tougher pins as the next if it still 
    seemed necessary.
    
    Ron N
    


  • 17.  string termination

    Posted 08-14-2005 14:53
    From Overs Pianos <sec@overspianos.com.au>
    
    Hi Ron,
    
    >>  Conventional bridge pins suffer severe damage at the termination 
    >>point. An intermediate solution would be hardened bridge pins, but 
    >>it will be a costly exercise.
    >>
    >>Ron O.
    >
    >Hi Ron,
    >It's true that speaking side bridge pins wear more than back side 
    >pins, but back side pins wear as well. I think cyclic dimensional 
    >changes of conventional bridge capping is responsible for at least 
    >half the wear we see in these pins. Better capping material would, I 
    >think, be the first step with tougher pins as the next if it still 
    >seemed necessary.
    >
    >Ron N
    
    Yes, I would have agreed with that also. But recently, a few days 
    after stringing the Overs-Kawai piano, I pulled some agraffes for a 
    second hole re-profile (this piano is the recently rebuilt one which 
    didn't get the agraffes electro-nickel plated). A couple of notes in 
    the C52 area were driving me nuts with agraffe string noise. I 
    examined the bridge pins while the strings were off and was shocked 
    at the marked deformation of the new bridge pins from the wire after 
    only a few days at tension.
    
    I photographed the bridge pin damage using extension bellows on the 
    SLR camera. The plan was to share these images with the Pianotech 
    community, but I haven't scanned them yet.
    
    So while I still share your view that we need the most stable and 
    strong bridge capping material, the side draft pressure on the pins 
    when combined with the string-drag on the pin when the piano is 
    pulled to pitch and rubbed down, would seem to be doing considerable 
    damage to the pins even before climate cycling issues do their thing.
    
    Ron O.
    -- 
    OVERS PIANOS - SYDNEY
        Grand Piano Manufacturers
    _______________________
    
    Web http://overspianos.com.au
    mailto:ron@overspianos.com.au
    _______________________
    


  • 18.  string termination

    Posted 08-14-2005 16:21
    From "Carl Meyer" <cmpiano@comcast.net>
    
    Thanks for you're thoughtful response.
    
    
    
    
    


  • 19.  string termination

    Posted 08-14-2005 20:40
    From Overs Pianos <sec@overspianos.com.au>
    
    >
    >That's interesting.  I'm familiar (a little) with electroless 
    >plating but I didn't know it was hardenable.  Can it be hardened 
    >over aluminum as well as brass or other metals?   I assume a plating 
    >shop would have the details.
    
    Yes they should.
    
    The as-plated hardness is just over 40 Rockwell from Memory. It can 
    be hardened over any substrate as long as it keys OK . We bake the 
    agraffes at 250 degrees C for five hours.
    
    Ron O.
    -- 
    
    OVERS PIANOS - SYDNEY
       Grand piano manufacturers
    ________________________
    
    Web:    http://www.overspianos.com.au
    Email: mailto:ron@overspianos.com.au
    ________________________
    


  • 20.  string termination

    Posted 08-13-2005 21:41
    From "Geoff Sykes" <ivories.52@earthlink.net>
    
    You've discovered nodes. And as I think about them, and how they relate to
    the fundamental, or first partial, I'm wondering if given the point at which
    the hammer actually strikes the string, (a point selected to create the
    highest number of partials actually related to the fundamental), if the
    fundamental is actually the loudest frequency we are hearing. Obviously it
    is, but in theory I would think that the further away you get from the
    center of the string, the weaker that fundamental "should" be. But maybe
    that only applies to plucking, (creating the phenomena Joe describes on his
    bass), and not striking. Just curious.
    
    Geoff Sykes
    Assoc. Los Angeles
    
    
    
    


  • 21.  string termination

    Posted 08-14-2005 03:58
    From Ric Brekne <ricbrek@broadpark.no>
    
    Hi Carl.
    
    I doubt seriously you will ever get a clear definitive answer to your 
    question. Dissagreement exists even concerning fundemental string 
    vibrational behaviours, and not just by pianotechs.
    
    One thing should be (I say should be) without doubt. Various end 
    conditions of strings most certainly do affect string vibrational 
    behaviour and in turn influence sustain, vibrational directions, energy 
    transfer to the bridge and soundboard, strengths of partials, and 
    others. Its easy enough to hear and measure more then significant change 
    when changes are made.
    
    Personally, I like what Ed McMorrow had to say on the subject. A short 
    bit in his book and I only mention it because you used the word "pivot" 
    in  your note.  It is part of his reasoning as to how the front duplex 
    functions. I have to also agree with his observation that the best capo 
    condition is a 0.5 mm V (not U) on non hardened surface. He has some 
    interesting points also as to how capo grooving can differ for different 
    capo solutions, and how these differences play out in terms of string 
    noises over time.
    
    Wapin has some hard science to back up his claims worth reading. Been a 
    while since I've heard from them so I am not sure what they have out for 
    public reading any more. Contact him for more info. He has always been 
    more then friendly and helpful in the past.
    
    You raise an interesting subject to be sure.
    
    Cheers
    RicB
    
    Carl Writes:
    
    Here's my question:  A vibrating string has two terminations.  It is excited 
    in the northern direction.  (Ignore the strike point)  What effect on tone 
    will be the termination of the two ends of the string????? Both north, one 
    north and the other south, east or west????   Or no big difference??
    


  • 22.  string termination

    Posted 08-14-2005 16:38
    From "Carl Meyer" <cmpiano@comcast.net>
    
    


  • 23.  string termination

    Posted 08-14-2005 23:23
    From Stephen Birkett <sbirkett@real.uwaterloo.ca>
    
    >I don't plan to hear or measure anything.  I only want to look and 
    >see what is happening to the string.
    
    A commendable objective Carl.
    
    To whet the appetite a bit take a look at the high speed images I 
    have on my website...some strings, dancing dampers, and bridge pins. 
    These were simply taken for interest and to test out the system, and 
    definitely not under controlled circumstances, so they won't answer 
    the detailed carousel (aka merry-go-round to those on the other 
    pond-side) of questions about strings and terminations. They do show 
    the complexity of the situation and the difficulty of making causal 
    generalizations. There is a plan to tackle this question as part of 
    our grand scheme of things here. First we have to learn how to be 
    creative with the equipment, so we can get multi-directional 
    synchronized images and see what's going on in 3-D with only one 
    camera. My plan is to isolate single variables that can affect string 
    motion (e.g. see Ron's long list), maintaining all bar one which gets 
    adjusted and the effect on the string monitored. Needless to say this 
    requires a precisely repeatable key actuation so comparisons at 
    successive times are meaningful, but that one we have licked already.
    
    The ftp server on my usual website is out of action at the moment, so 
    best go to the mirror site I have. The high-speed stuff is at 
    http://fortepianos.com/high%20speed%20imaging.htm Note carefully the 
    instructions given for getting your system set up to play these. The 
    compression is extreme (each video starts raw at 500MB and compressed 
    to about 5MB) to make them manageable files, so you'll need to get 
    the correct video codec installed if you don't already have it.
    
    Stephen
    -- 
    Dr Stephen Birkett
    Associate Professor
    Department of Systems Design Engineering
    University of Waterloo
    Waterloo, Ontario
    Canada N2L 3G1
    
    E3 Room 3158
    tel: 519-888-4567 Ext. 3792
    fax: 519-746-4791
    Piano Design Lab E3-3160 Ext. 7115
    mailto: sbirkett[at]real.uwaterloo.ca
    http://real.uwaterloo.ca/~sbirkett
    


  • 24.  string termination

    Posted 08-15-2005 15:40
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>
    
    Hi Stephen,
    
    Cool stuff, I WANT one! One thing - either my system is psychotic 
    (distinct possibility) or the C64 damper video brings up the D6 
    damper instead. Also, a question about that C64 bridge sequence. How 
    fast is that unison beating?
    
    Ron N
    


  • 25.  string termination

    Posted 08-15-2005 16:32
    From "Cy Shuster" <741662027@theshusters.org>
    
    Two of the links bring up the same video for me.  I think it's the bridge 
    link that gives the damper instead.
    
    --Cy--
    


  • 26.  string termination

    Posted 08-14-2005 09:31
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>
    
    > A lot of things about string terminations have bugged me for some time.
    
    Me too.
    
    
    > Stuart of Australia claims that their bridge termination increases the 
    > vertical vibration of the string.   Hmmmm?  How does that effect the 
    > sustain????
    
    I don't think the termination has anything to do with sustain in 
    this case. The kilo of brass mounted on the bridge in the form of 
    agraffes, however, will help sustain substantially.
    
    
    > My esteemed colleuge from one of the fly over states suggests that a 
    > string starts out vibrating vertically, slowly starts to drift 
    > horizontally but never gets to true horizontal.  He also suggests that a 
    > string tends to vibrate at 90 degrees of its termination.  I want to 
    > find out if that is true.
    
    "Flyover" sounds like I might qualify for comment here. I'd like to 
    find out if it's true too, but a string stretched across the garage 
    isn't going to be the real thing. I'd like to hear what you observe 
    anyway, as at least a beginning of understanding what cause and 
    effect relationships are at work. Part of the question here for me 
    is what affect the moving bridge has on string excursion direction. 
    In Stuart's setup, both terminations are horizontal so a vertically 
    cycling bridge shouldn't disturb much. Both the "standard" pin 
    configuration and Wapin have a horizontal termination at the agraffe 
    (etc), and a vertical or near vertical termination at the bridge. I 
    would expect a vertically cycling bridge to have a greater effect on 
    these. Then too, the bridges are all these systems are rocking fore 
    and aft, only the rocking motion won't be exactly along the string 
    line because the bridge isn't perpendicular to the string. The 
    motion will instead be left-forward, right-back in a grand.
    
    
    > Here's my question:  A vibrating string has two terminations.  It is 
    > excited in the northern direction.  (Ignore the strike point)  What 
    > effect on tone will be the termination of the two ends of the 
    > string????? Both north, one north and the other south, east or 
    > west????   Or no big difference??
    
    Too general. Define termination. Are you talking mass, rigidity, 
    hardness, shape, direction, or all of the above. There are a lot of 
    variables here.
    
    
      > If some of you deep thinkers have an answer to my question that 
    makes
    > common sense, I won't have to do this.  Give me your feedback.  Thanks
    
    Come on Carl, you know "common sense" is an oxymoron.
    
    Ron N
    


  • 27.  string termination

    Posted 08-14-2005 15:05
    From Overs Pianos <sec@overspianos.com.au>
    
    >>A lot of things about string terminations have bugged me for some time.
    >
    >Me too.
    >
    >>Stuart of Australia claims that their bridge termination increases 
    >>the vertical vibration of the string.   Hmmmm?  How does that 
    >>effect the sustain????
    >
    >I don't think the termination has anything to do with sustain in 
    >this case. The kilo of brass mounted on the bridge in the form of 
    >agraffes, however, will help sustain substantially.
    >(Ron N)
    
    
    I agree. The Stuart board is soo lightly built that if it had a 
    conventionally pinnned bridge, I would have expected it to have a 
    very short sustain. His bridge agraffe design results in the string 
    plane being 8 mm above the bridge cap. There must a good kilo or two 
    of brass distributed along the long bridge, which would certainly 
    contribute significantly to the sustaining qualities that the 
    instrument has.
    
    Ron O.
    -- 
    OVERS PIANOS - SYDNEY
        Grand Piano Manufacturers
    _______________________
    
    Web http://overspianos.com.au
    mailto:ron@overspianos.com.au
    _______________________
    


  • 28.  string termination

    Posted 08-14-2005 17:06
    From "Calin Tantareanu" <calin.tantareanu@gmx.net>
    
    Ron O. and Ron N.,
    
    You both think that the Stuart agraffe doesn't make a better termination? I 
    would think it does, because it is a harder surface than a conventional 
    bridgepin+wood termination, and would thus be somewhat less flexible, 
    causing less energy (high freq. especially) to be lost.
    No doubt that the agraffe's mass can also contribute.
    
     Calin Tantareanu
    ----------------------------------------------------
     http://calin.1L.com
    ----------------------------------------------------
    
    


  • 29.  string termination

    Posted 08-14-2005 18:56
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>
    
    > Ron O. and Ron N.,
    > 
    > You both think that the Stuart agraffe doesn't make a better 
    > termination? I would think it does, because it is a harder surface than 
    > a conventional bridgepin+wood termination, and would thus be somewhat 
    > less flexible, causing less energy (high freq. especially) to be lost.
    > No doubt that the agraffe's mass can also contribute.
    > 
    > Calin Tantareanu
    
    
    Did either of us say anything one way or another about the quality 
    of termination of Stuart's agraffe?
    
    Ron N
    


  • 30.  string termination

    Posted 08-15-2005 12:09
    From "Calin Tantareanu" <calin.tantareanu@gmx.net>
    
    Ron N.,
    
    You wrote: "I don't think the termination has anything to do with sustain in 
    this case. The kilo of brass mounted on the bridge in the form of agraffes, 
    however, will help sustain substantially."
    So I thought you mean that the agraffe doesn't provide a better termination 
    (and thus sustain) other than by means of its weight, which I think is not 
    the _only_ way it works.
    Perhaps I misunderstood your words, what exactly did you mean?
    
    Regards,
    
     Calin Tantareanu
    ----------------------------------------------------
     http://calin.1L.com
    ----------------------------------------------------
    
    
    


  • 31.  string termination

    Posted 08-15-2005 13:11
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>
    
    > You wrote: "I don't think the termination has anything to do with 
    > sustain in this case. The kilo of brass mounted on the bridge in the 
    > form of agraffes, however, will help sustain substantially."
    > So I thought you mean that the agraffe doesn't provide a better 
    > termination (and thus sustain) other than by means of its weight, which 
    > I think is not the _only_ way it works.
    
    I wasn't addressing termination, but impedance. Given a minimal 
    mechanical coupling between string and bridge, which I am assuming, 
    sustain is primarily an impedance thing. The mass of the bridge 
    agraffes raises the impedance at the bridge, slowing the assembly's 
    absorption of energy from the string, and increasing sustain. The 
    discussion was on how the agraffe termination steered string 
    excursion in a specific direction that increased sustain and I 
    disagreed, offering that the added mass of the agraffes was the 
    reason for the increased sustain.
    
    Ron N
    


  • 32.  string termination

    Posted 08-14-2005 23:37
    From <justpianos@our.net.au>
    
    List,
    I'm a complete novice on the science of this, whilst having originally 
    trained as an Engineer, but it strikes me that the bridge attached to the 
    soundboard does not constitute a termination, but rather a node, as it needs 
    to vibrate the soundboard to transmit the sound.
    Also I feel that an agraffe hole exactly the diameter of the string would be 
    the most efficient to act as both a termination and a node.
    Bruce Browning _ The Piano Tuner
    
    
    
    
    
    Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net> said:
    
    > 
    > > Ron O. and Ron N.,
    > > 
    > > You both think that the Stuart agraffe doesn't make a better 
    > > termination? I would think it does, because it is a harder surface than 
    > > a conventional bridgepin+wood termination, and would thus be somewhat 
    > > less flexible, causing less energy (high freq. especially) to be lost.
    > > No doubt that the agraffe's mass can also contribute.
    > > 
    > > Calin Tantareanu
    > 
    > 
    > Did either of us say anything one way or another about the quality 
    > of termination of Stuart's agraffe?
    > 
    > Ron N
    > _______________________________________________
    > pianotech list info: http://www.ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/pianotech
    > 
    
    
    
    -- 
    


  • 33.  string termination

    Posted 08-14-2005 17:27
    From "Carl Meyer" <cmpiano@comcast.net>
    
    


  • 34.  string termination

    Posted 08-14-2005 19:02
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>
    
    >> I don't think the termination has anything to do with sustain in this 
    >> case. The kilo of brass mounted on the bridge in the form of agraffes, 
    >> however, will help sustain substantially.
    > 
    > Thanks, Ron.  I had forgotten the impedance factor in all this.  Can't 
    > we make the whole bridge out of brass???? And really sustain?????
    
    Sure, and we could barely hear it for a VERY long time.
    
    > As a farm boy, would horse sense be more appropriate???  At least horses 
    > have it.
    
    No place for neigh sayers here...
    
    Ron N
    


  • 35.  string termination

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-14-2005 10:28
    From "David Love" <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>
    
    Seems like I have agraffes that have a metal rod insert.  A hole is drilled
    through the agraffe such that when the metal rod is inserted it is only
    slightly exposed at the top of each hole.  That puts the string termination
    in contact with the hardened metal rod rather than the brass.  
    
    David Love
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net 
    
    


  • 36.  string termination

    Posted 08-14-2005 12:34
    From "Pierre Gevaert" <pierre.gevaert@belgacom.net>
    
    Encountered this type of agraffes in pianos  as old as 1840
    
    Pierre Gevaert 
    


  • 37.  string termination

    Posted 08-14-2005 15:54
    From "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>
    
    What manufacture is that piano?
    
    My understanding of this agraffe design is that there is a tendency for the 
    string to migrate to one end or the other of the harder metal rod section 
    within the agraffe hole and end up buzzing on the brass anyway.
    
    Terry Farrell
    
    > Seems like I have agraffes that have a metal rod insert.  A hole is 
    > drilled
    > through the agraffe such that when the metal rod is inserted it is only
    > slightly exposed at the top of each hole.  That puts the string 
    > termination
    > in contact with the hardened metal rod rather than the brass.
    >
    > David Love
    > davidlovepianos@comcast.net 
    


  • 38.  string termination

    Posted 08-15-2005 10:29
    From Andrew and Rebeca  Anderson <anrebe@sbcglobal.net>
    
    I've seen these too.  It would be a low cost way to have a solid 
    termination point.  Who carries these.  I recall it was on a European 
    make.  Jurgen, do you have these?  Can they be ordered with standard 
    threading to retrofit to American makes?
    
    Andrew
    At 11:28 AM 8/14/2005, you wrote:
    >Seems like I have agraffes that have a metal rod insert.  A hole is drilled
    >through the agraffe such that when the metal rod is inserted it is only
    >slightly exposed at the top of each hole.  That puts the string termination
    >in contact with the hardened metal rod rather than the brass.
    >
    >David Love
    >davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    >
    >


  • 39.  string termination

    Posted 08-15-2005 23:08
    From Mark Schecter <schecter@pacbell.net>
    
    David Love wrote:
    > Seems like I have agraffes that have a metal rod insert.  A hole is drilled
    > through the agraffe such that when the metal rod is inserted it is only
    > slightly exposed at the top of each hole.  That puts the string termination
    > in contact with the hardened metal rod rather than the brass.  
    > 
    > David Love
    > davidlovepianos@comcast.net 
    
    I've seen these on a recent 7' Bechstein.
    
    -Mark Schecter
    


  • 40.  string termination

    Posted 08-14-2005 12:58
      |   view attached
    From "Porritt, David" <dporritt@mail.smu.edu>
    
    The capo through the whole piano is fine from a termination standpoint, but I'd want something in the capo to space the strings evenly.  When you get down to the point of tri-chord dampers string spacing gets very important.  
     
    Those half agraffes in the old Knabe capos, what were they made of?  Brass or something harder?
     
    dp
     
    __________________________
    David M. Porritt, RPT
    Meadows School of the Arts
    Southern Methodist University
    Dallas, TX 75275
    dporritt@smu.edu
    
    ________________________________
    
    From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org on behalf of Ron Nossaman
    Sent: Sun 8/14/2005 10:54 AM
    To: Pianotech
    Subject: Re: string termination
    
    
    
    > Why then not make a agraffe out of steel or some other harder material?
    > That may be difficult for the one-off small-shop piano builder, but if
    > there were a demand to others..... Why would this be so difficult? Why
    > would brass persist so long?
    
    Cost? Ease of machining?
    
    
    > Why not use other termination types like a capo-type bar in all string
    > sections like you see on cheap old American microgrands? What about
    > something more like an upright pressure bar arrangement?
    
    Actually, it looks to me to be quite possible to retrofit an
    agraffed piano with a termination bar of harder material than the
    brass agraffe, along the agraffe line, with a pressure bar behind,
    screwed into the plate. A cast stepped bar would be ideal for
    matching speaking lengths within the unison, but I'm curious how
    well a curved bar would work. Just how critical are slightly
    mismatched speaking lengths within unisons at those string lengths?
    I'd guess there is some tolerance.
    
    Ron N
    _______________________________________________
    pianotech list info: http://www.ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/pianotech
    

    Attachment(s)

    dat
    winmail531.dat   4 KB 1 version


  • 41.  string termination

    Posted 08-14-2005 13:36
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>
    
    > The capo through the whole piano is fine from a termination standpoint, but I'd want something in the capo to space the strings evenly.  When you get down to the point of tri-chord dampers string spacing gets very important.  
    
    Good point.
    
    
    > Those half agraffes in the old Knabe capos, what were they made of?  Brass or something harder?
    
    I thought it was brass.
    
    Ron N
    


  • 42.  string termination

    Posted 08-14-2005 16:22
      |   view attached
    From "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>
    
    >> The capo through the whole piano is fine from a termination standpoint, but I'd want something in the capo to space the strings evenly.  When you get down to the point of tri-chord dampers string spacing gets very important.  
    > 
    > Good point.
    
    Calin Tantareanu sent me this picture of his Schweighofe piano. Here is one solution to string alignment for the capo.
    
    Funny how pianos used to evolve.
    
    
    
    
    >> Those half agraffes in the old Knabe capos, what were they made of?  Brass or something harder?
    > 
    > I thought it was brass.
    
    In Knabes also? Or are we thinking of Chickerings?
    
    Terry Farrell


  • 43.  string termination

    Posted 08-14-2005 16:31
      |   view attached
    From John Ross <jrpiano@win.eastlink.ca>
    
    Heintzman in Canada used a similar system.
    They called it an agraffe bridge, patented, March 10th 1895.
    They used the system, right up till they closed, in the 70's I believe.
    I can take a picture if you want.
    John M. Ross
    Windsor, Nova Scotia, Canada
    jrpiano@win.eastlink.ca
      


  • 44.  string termination

    Posted 08-15-2005 10:10
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>
    
    > Funny how pianos used to evolve.
    
    Or was that Intelligent design?
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Ron N
    


  • 45.  string termination

    Posted 08-15-2005 16:43
    From Avery Todd <avery1@houston.rr.com>
    
    Or maybe they "evolved" from Kranich & Bach!!!!!! :-)
    
    Avery
    
    At 11:10 AM 8/15/05, you wrote:
    
    >>Funny how pianos used to evolve.
    >
    >Or was that Intelligent design?
    >
    >Ron N
    >_______________________________________________
    >pianotech list info: http://www.ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/pianotech
    


  • 46.  string termination

    Member
    Posted 08-14-2005 16:30
    From V T <pianovt@yahoo.com>
    
    Hi Geoff,
    
    You wrote:
    "... I'm wondering if given the point at which the
    hammer actually strikes the string, (a point selected
    to create the highest number of partials actually
    related to the fundamental), if the fundamental is
    actually the loudest frequency we are hearing.
    Obviously it is, but in theory I would think that the
    further away you get from the center of the string,
    the weaker that fundamental "should" be...."
    
    The problem with establishing the spectral content is
    that it changes as the note rings out.  The higher
    partials are present early on, but with the decaying
    tone their relative strength diminishes.  If one
    examines the tone in the "frequency domain"
    (spectrum analyzer), the data is somewhat incomplete
    unless the partials are also monitored with the
    passage of time.
    
    You are correct, the closer you strike the string to
    the termination, the more you will excite the higher
    partials at the expense of the fundamental.  By the
    end of the decay, the fundamental will be the only one
    left, regardless of where you strike.  The strike
    point is therefore mostly related to the attack tone.
    
    In the bass, you actually hear the higher partials and
    not much of the fundamental in the beginning.
    
    Vladan
    
    
    		
    ____________________________________________________
    Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
    http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
     
    


  • 47.  string termination

    Posted 08-15-2005 00:35
    From "Geoff Sykes" <ivories.52@earthlink.net>
    
    Very very amazing videos! But I notice two things. First, (referring back to
    my previous post), in the A#14 video I am not really aware of ever seeing a
    wave for the fundamental. Does one actually exist? Second, there is
    something funny going on in that you can actually see the waves on the two
    strings go out of sync (phase) with each other. String length differences?
    Slightly out unisons? Compare to the tri-chord video where the three strings
    are dead on in sync (phase) for the entire time. 
    
    In any case, very amazing video. Thanks Stephen.
    
    Geoff Sykes
    Assoc. Los Angeles
    
    
    
    


  • 48.  string termination--high speed video

    Posted 08-15-2005 11:08
    From Andrew and Rebeca  Anderson <anrebe@sbcglobal.net>
    
    Dr. Birkett,
    What I found really telling was the high speed video of the felt 
    punchings under the key.  I'm seeing several rebounds there.  Any 
    change we can get a high speed video of the action doing its 
    thing?  This is fascinating.
    
    Andrew
    


  • 49.  string termination/Bridge motion/Impedance

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-25-2005 02:25
    From Robin Hufford <hufford1@airmail.net>
    
    These are very interesting videos indeed.  Some tempered commentary about what
    is actually visible in these images.
         The wave one sees impacting and reflecting from the bridge is the traveling
    wave, induced in the string by the hammer's impact.  This, in fact, is not a
    disturbance directly responsible for the sound we hear, which should be easily
    obvious from comtemplation of its frequency which is not at that of the tuned
    string, a point I attempted to make three or four years ago.  It does, however,
    load the string with strain energy enabling its free vibration.
         The transverse or shear wave you see traveling here has an energy density
    that is a function of the transverse acceleration given to the wire by the
    hammer and the elastic and inertial characteristics of the string.  The sum
    total of energy contained in it is vastly less than that required to move the
    bridge/soundboard, even once, much less repeatedly and, particularly, at the
    tuned frequency of the string.
         Then where does the sound come from?  The traveling wave is rapidly
    distributing its energy into the string, overall, through reflection,
    superposition and dispersion with the result that the string begins to be
    energized in its free vibration modes.  That is what we tune and hear: these
    frequencies are different from those of the traveling wave.  Counting the period
    of the traveling in these images does not reveal the frequency of the audible
    vibration.   They could not possibly be identical with the traveling wave, by
    definition if for no other reason.   The wave you are looking for, along with
    the rest of the spectrum is not directly visible as flexion of the wire but
    exists as a very slight longitudinal strain of the wire which will require a
    different approach photographically, to be made visible.  For these to be
    visualized sections of the wire itself will have to be made to stand out against
    a defining background which will need to be used as a reference line.  When this
    is made visible one will see the vastly larger traveling wave passing, which is
    visible now,  for a while at least, along the modal section of the string.
         So far as motion at the bridge, any functional piano has been empirically
    designed to eliminate, regardless of new theories of the last 35 or so years,
    which have become very fashionable,  as much as possible, within certain limits,
    such motion
         However, stipulating for the moment that the traveling wave one sees, and I
    have seen other, similar videos, provides a flexural component that moves the
    bridge, an exceedingly popular concept, consider what must happen when an
    adjacent unison is also sounding:  Neither could possibly produce the frequency
    either produced when sounding singly, an elemental, simple, basic point
    misconstrued by the "modern" flexural/impedance model which is, in reality, more
    appropriate to vibration analysis of machinery and not of the acoustic function
    of a soundboard.
         Of course, as I have many times indicated, I believe this model, however
    widespread,  to be completely flawed, for many reasons.  One does not see a
    corresponding "yank" at the bridge, even for the traveling wave, which, of
    course, certainly exists and has, I believe, a far greater level of energy than
    any mode of the string, because the bridge/soundboard system is strong enough to
    withstand the impulse of the string without yielding significantly.  This does
    not mean there is not a reaction here, of course there is, and must be, however,
    it, for the most part, is on a molecular level.   The string is not still at its
    termination because it is a node: it is still because the immobility of the
    soundboard/bridge/string interaction is sufficient such that it forces a node.
    This does not mean complete rididity or lack of mobility: it is a matter of
    degree.
         A reaction to a force need not do work, that is experience displacement,
    or, in this case make itself evident as a flexural event, but does, still,
    nevertheless exist.  Its existence though, is as a wave disturbance traveling
    through the medium. The soundboard/bridge/string/pin system is a subtle machine
    which has been evolved to operate in just in this fashion: that is to acquire
    the strain energy imparted to it by the hammer as a shear wave, transform it to
    acoustical effect through allowing the string to vibrate in its free modes, set
    by the tuner.  It then pulses the sound out of the string into the soundboard,
    which through superposition concentrates it in the time domain and radiates it
    away at higher sound pressure levels than would otherwise be the case.  This
    requires a certain degree of stiffness such that the modal vibrations of the
    string are not disrupted by motion at the bridge, which is called loop
    stability, while at the same time taking care that stiffness at the bridge does
    not compromise the vibratory capability of the board in various aspects, by
    which this sound is, as mentioned,  then concentrated and radiated away.
         It is astonishing how widespread is the incorrect notion that the string
    lacks sound.  In fact, the system works to do just that: produce sound in the
    string which interacts with the bridge and bridge pins as a pressure
    excitation.   This pressure is the sound pressure in the string at its various
    components and not a change in the static, mechanical,  pressure of the string
    bearing on the bridge, or pulling up on a bridge agraffe.
        At some level of resolution, I am sure,  eventually some motion will be
    detectable:  this will be neither harmonic, of constant frequency, or linearly
    related to either the traveling wave or the frequencies pulsed into the bridge
    by the string.
         The driving-point, or transfer impedance model so widespread, is, in
    reality, more appropriate in vibration analysis, that is, in the analysis of
    machinery and incidental vibrations and, not particularly appropriate, in my
    opinion, for an acoustical approach to a piano soundboard where the critical
    need for loop stability has forced evolution of the system in just such a was as
    to negate many aspects, however legitimate, of this kind of analysis, in
    particular, the impedance mismatch of the wave energy on the string and the
    soundboard/bridge/pin effector, for lack of a better word.
         In point of fact, the impedance of a real soundboard system as a whole,
    once any functional panel has been built, cannot be substantially altered by the
    relatively slight changes in wire dimensions advocated by users of rescaling
    techniques, although there, I think, are other reasons to do so, by changing the
    rib profile, or by changing the bridge dimensions, as is routinely assumed to be
    the case.
          This is so because the impedance mismatch between the soundboard component
    and the acoustic activity on the wire, including also the traveling wave, has
    already been made so great that slight tweaks like these are, essentially,
    trying to empty a thousand gallon bathtub with a teaspoon:  It takes a great
    deal of change to make a difference, or be noticeable.
         Even though I believe the Five Lectures, are, in fact, merely a rudimentary
    beginning in the proper analysis of soundboard behavior, and have said so here,
    one should take to heart the implications of the testing which one of the
    articles reports:  measurements taken of the soundboard output with ribs on the
    board taken as a measure of the transfer impedance of the system.  These ribs
    are then thinned, additional measurements are then taken with no difference
    measurable in impedance.  Additional thinnings and measurements  continue until
    a rib is completely planed away, yet: no difference. At the moment I forget
    which article this is but would urge any wishing to understand this phenomenon
    to find the Lectures, familiarize themselves with this particular study, and
    contemplate the reason why.   This is but one of the troublesome questions I
    alluded to years ago.
    Regards, Robin Hufford
    
    
    courseery very amazing videos! But I notice two things. First, (referring back
    to
    
    > my previous post), in the A#14 video I am not really aware of ever seeing a
    > wave for the fundamental. Does one actually exist? Second, there is
    > something funny going on in that you can actually see the waves on the two
    > strings go out of sync (phase) with each other. String length differences?
    > Slightly out unisons? Compare to the tri-chord video where the three strings
    > are dead on in sync (phase) for the entire time.
    >
    > In any case, very amazing video. Thanks Stephen.
    >
    > Geoff Sykes
    > Assoc. Los Angeles
    >
    > 


  • 50.  string termination

    Posted 08-15-2005 00:52
    From Ric Brekne <ricbrek@broadpark.no>
    
    Hey again Carl... a few couple comments interpierced :) below.
    
    
    >/ Hi Carl.
    />/
    />/ I doubt seriously you will ever get a clear definitive answer to your 
    />/ question. Dissagreement exists even concerning fundemental string 
    />/ vibrational behaviours, and not just by pianotechs.
    /
    /You do realize that I am no stranger to disagreements./
    ----------------------
    
    Hey.... Its me :) !!
    
    
    >/ One thing should be (I say should be) without doubt. Various end 
    />/ conditions of strings most certainly do affect string vibrational 
    />/ behaviour and in turn influence sustain, vibrational directions, energy 
    />/ transfer to the bridge and soundboard, strengths of partials, and others. 
    />/ Its easy enough to hear and measure more then significant change when 
    />/ changes are made.
    /
    
    /I don't plan to hear or measure anything.  I only want to look and see what 
    is happening to the string.
    /-------------------------
    
    The thing about just haveing a look see... even with a strobe is that
    you cant really be all that sure of what you are looking at. To find
    out how different termination configurations affect string travel I'd
    imagine you'd want to <<look>> very closely at the
    termination itself and whats going on there. To be really sure of whats
    going on there I'd think one would want some measuring device that
    would provide a bit more definitive information then what one could
    observe with the eyeball and a strobe.
    
    
    
    Cheers
    
    RicB
    


  • 51.  string termination

    Posted 08-15-2005 01:06
    From Ric Brekne <ricbrek@broadpark.no>
    
    Hi Calin.
    
    Calin writes:
    
    You both think that the Stuart agraffe doesn't make a better termination? I 
    would think it does, because it is a harder surface than a conventional 
    bridgepin+wood termination, and would thus be somewhat less flexible, 
    causing less energy (high freq. especially) to be lost.
    No doubt that the agraffe's mass can also contribute.
    
     Calin Tantareanu
    
    -------------------------
    
    I would think so as well.  Perhaps if one contacted Stuart one could 
    aquire some hard data on the subject ??
    
     From an article on the subject....
    
        "After years of experimentation, Wayne Stuart developed a special
        clamp to keep the vibrations vertical. Eager to discover if his
        invention was a fluke or could be scientifically proven he called in
        the expertise of Robert Anderssen from the Australian science
        agency, CSIRO."
    
        ........................
    
        "Applying the maths of vibrating strings, some of it going back to
        Pythagoras, Robert was able to show mathematically that the clamps
        ensured a more harmonious and clearer singing sound.
    
        "Those notes are more harmonious because the string is kept
        vibrating vertically and the energy in the vibrations is dissipated
        more slowly and that's what the musicians call sustain and volume."
    
    
    The person making this claim can be reached at
    
    Dr. Robert Anderssen
    Computer Science and Information Technology Building
    Australian National University
    North Rd
    Acton ACT 2601
    Bob.Anderssen@csiro.au <mailto:Bob.Anderssen@csiro.au>
    
    --------------
    


  • 52.  string termination

    Posted 08-15-2005 12:18
    From "Calin Tantareanu" <calin.tantareanu@gmx.net>
    
    Hello Ric!
    
    You wrote:
    >
    >    "After years of experimentation, Wayne Stuart developed a special
    >    clamp to keep the vibrations vertical. Eager to discover if his
    >    invention was a fluke or could be scientifically proven he called in
    >    the expertise of Robert Anderssen from the Australian science
    >    agency, CSIRO."
    ...
    >    "Those notes are more harmonious because the string is kept
    >    vibrating vertically and the energy in the vibrations is dissipated
    >    more slowly and that's what the musicians call sustain and volume."
    >
    
    The "vertical vibration claim doesn't seem very plausible to me (but i don't 
    have any counter-arguments). I just think the way a bridge agraffe can 
    improve sustain is just by virtue of its greater hardness (and weight), 
    compared to a conventional bridge pin, which seems to be a pretty flexible 
    contraption.
    
    Regards,
    
    
     Calin Tantareanu
    ----------------------------------------------------
     http://calin.1L.com
    ---------------------------------------------------- 
    


  • 53.  string termination

    Posted 08-15-2005 14:57
    From "J. Stanley Ryberg" <jstan40@sbcglobal.net>
    
    > Funny how pianos used to evolve.Or was that Intelligent design?Ron N
    
    Oh, yeah, that's right....Kansas.
    
    
    
    Stan Ryberg 
    Barrington IL 
    jstan40@sbcglobal.net
    


  • 54.  string termination

    Posted 08-15-2005 21:11
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>
    
    >> Funny how pianos used to evolve.
    > 
    > Or was that Intelligent design?
    > 
    > 
    > Ron N
    > 
    > *Oh, yeah, that's right....Kansas.*
    > 
    > Stan Ryberg
    
    
    I knew Stan would get it.
    
    Ron N
    


  • 55.  string termination

    Posted 08-15-2005 16:40
    From Ric Brekne <ricbrek@broadpark.no>
    
    Hi Stephen
    
    Very interesting to watch the c64 bridge avi.  I ran this through extra 
    slow motion on my viewer and for the life of me I can not see hardly any 
    downward deflection at the bridge pin by the string. The strings upward 
    motion at the pin (and immediatly away from it as well) is quite obvious 
    to see, but if you mark the initial position of the string, it never 
    seems to go below that plane. More then likely some effect from the 
    angle.... or.. ?  It would be nice to see this same shot from a 
    perpendicular angle to the string on the string plane.
    
    Cheers
    RicB
    
    The ftp server on my usual website is out of action at the moment, so 
    best go to the mirror site I have. The high-speed stuff is at 
    http://fortepianos.com/high%20speed%20imaging.htm Note carefully the 
    instructions given for getting your system set up to play these. The 
    compression is extreme (each video starts raw at 500MB and compressed 
    to about 5MB) to make them manageable files, so you'll need to get 
    the correct video codec installed if you don't already have it.
    
    Stephen
    -- 
    Dr Stephen Birkett
    Associate Professor
    Department of Systems Design Engineering
    University of Waterloo
    Waterloo, Ontario
    Canada N2L 3G1
    


  • 56.  string termination

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-15-2005 23:40
    From "David Love" <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>
    
    Seems like I've seen them on Bechsteins as well.  Generally I've found these
    pianos to be pretty clean in their terminations and have not noticed agraffe
    noise developing on these pianos.  In fact, those thicker agraffes that are
    used in the treble seem to do a good job preventing leakage.  With respect
    to this particular discussion, why not use this style agraffe rather than
    deal with hardening or plating?
      
    David Love
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net 
    
    


  • 57.  string termination

    Posted 08-16-2005 02:21
    From Mark Schecter <schecter@pacbell.net>
    
    David Love wrote:
    > Seems like I've seen them on Bechsteins as well.  Generally I've found these
    > pianos to be pretty clean in their terminations and have not noticed agraffe
    > noise developing on these pianos.  In fact, those thicker agraffes that are
    > used in the treble seem to do a good job preventing leakage.  With respect
    > to this particular discussion, why not use this style agraffe rather than
    > deal with hardening or plating?
    >   
    
    My experience with this 7' is similar - very clean from top to bottom. 
    Easy to tune, both in terms of hearing clean partials, and of the 
    strings moving readily. And very stable pitch-wise. (It also sounds 
    really good, but I digress (!)).
    
    -Mark
    


  • 58.  string termination

    Posted 08-16-2005 18:53
    From "J. Stanley Ryberg" <jstan40@sbcglobal.net>
    
    >> Funny how pianos used to evolve.> > Or was that Intelligent design?> > > Ron N> > *Oh, yeah, that's right....Kansas.*> > Stan RybergI knew Stan would get it.Ron N
    
    Ron, you're too kind!  (And I really DID fall on the floor laughing about THAT one!)
    
    
    
    Stan Ryberg 
    Barrington IL 
    jstan40@sbcglobal.net
    


  • 59.  string termination

    Posted 08-17-2005 20:26
    From David Ilvedson <ilvey@sbcglobal.net>
    
    I have been perusing the web for an actual diagram/picture of the Stuart bridge set up and can't find one....any help on this?
    
    David Ilvedson
    
    
    
    


  • 60.  string termination

    Posted 08-18-2005 21:07
    From Overs Pianos <sec@overspianos.com.au>
    
    Hi all,
    
    >I have been perusing the web for an actual diagram/picture of the 
    >Stuart bridge set up and can't find one....any help on this?
    >
    >David Ilvedson
    
    Hi David,
    
    A couple of years ago I took some photos of his agraffes and posted 
    them to my website. You can still find them at;
    
    The link below shows his first type of agraffe, which would have a 
    propensity to rotate the bridges off the panel.
    http://overspianos.com.au/strtagr1.jpg
    
    This is his latest agraffe, which is a better design. The silastic is 
    there to control string noise, which is caused by the string 
    vibrating against the sides of the string loading slot.
    http://overspianos.com.au/strtagr2.jpg
    
    The basic idea is very good. But the noisy slot problem needs 
    addressing (I have tuned one of these pianos a few times, just in 
    case some of you are wondering about my familiarity with the design).
    
    Ron O.
    -- 
    OVERS PIANOS - SYDNEY
        Grand Piano Manufacturers
    _______________________
    
    Web http://overspianos.com.au
    mailto:ron@overspianos.com.au
    _______________________
    


  • 61.  string termination

    Posted 08-19-2005 07:55
    From "Cy Shuster" <741662027@theshusters.org>
    
    RE: string terminationOK, my brain stopped right here.
    
    Why is that "silastic" silicon-looking stuff necessary?  To stop buzzing in the string segment between the front (left, in this picture) horizontal termination and the center termination (where the string goes down)?  That segment is, what, half a dozen string diameters long: is that really a problem?
    
    Or does it buzz when the speaking length lifts up above the forward termination?  (Or ditto for the rear duplex?)
    
    I've seen how string underlayment felt works to quiet noise, but those string segments are usually at least a couple of inches long.
    
    --Cy Shuster--
    Boston, MA
      


  • 62.  string termination

    Posted 08-19-2005 09:57
    From "Calin Tantareanu" <calin.tantareanu@gmx.net>
    
    RE: string termination
      


  • 63.  string termination

    Posted 08-19-2005 01:52
    From "Richard Moody" <remoody@midstatesd.net>
    
    Your pictures show an interesting concept of how to keep a piano string from
    buzzing on top of the bridge (without to much down bearing) .  Is this an
    agraffe on the bridge?  How is it actually mounted?  Threaded, or driven or
    glued?  How does this sound?   It must be acceptable as in better than
    digital.   These days most digitals are beginning to sound better than most
    grands under 5'2" at least through loud speakers (including sound
    reinforcement).   
    
     
    
    The other concern (theoretical) is that a string resting on a bridge by
    itself transmits its vibrations directly.  A string going through a big
    brass agraffe must also move the mass of that agraffe which might be many
    times more than the string itself so I wonder what the acoustic or sonic
    effect might be?   I would love to hear it because it seems such an object
    might be made to solve the problem of down bearing controlled to .001 inch
    for each string.  
    
                                  ---ric 
    
     
    
    


  • 64.  string termination

    Posted 08-19-2005 06:50
    From Ric Brekne <ricbrek@broadpark.no>
    
    Hi all
    
    Ric Moodly brings up a point about  buzzing which as far as I've 
    understood has always been the major concern with attempts to find an 
    alternative to the conventional bridge pin configuration.  I've never 
    really heard much convincing argument against agraffes beyond this 
    concern through the years. As far as the mass of the agraffe is 
    concerned.  I would suggest that the string sees as much (if not more) 
    the total mass it has to move rather then the mass of any individual 
    componet in the bridge/soundboard assembly. That said, agraffes 
    conceivably could be used conciously with regard to local impediance 
    concerns.
    
    A point about the vertical vibration claim that seems to be rather foggy 
    in the discussions is just what this claim is really about. A couple 
    things might be worth to remember.  The impact of the hammer causes a 
    traveling wave to initially be set up on the string which eventually 
    dissapates into a standing wave.  During that initial period however the 
    pulse traveling up and down the length of the string is reflected by the 
    endpoints, and the direction of reflective force is with out a doubt 
    influenced by the orientation of the termination. The hammer sets a 
    vertical pulse (wave) in motion that smacks into the bridge termination 
    in an upward direction. The bridge termination repels much of this pulse 
    back down the string, and exerts a directional force of its own. The 
    pulse itself has its own inertia and wants to continue on the same 
    initial plane. As I understand it, the Stuart claim is two fold. First, 
    that the vertical termination point at the bridge is conducive towards 
    lengthening the time period this vertical component is evident. Second 
    that this exact lengthening is reponsible for an overall lengthening in 
    the sustain of the instrument.
    
    Math proofs aside for the moment, intuitively there is support  for this 
    idea. The physical motion of the bridge / soundboard  is dominated by an 
    up/down vibration. A deflection of any string pulse in any other 
    direction then an upwards/downwards orientation will not only waste 
    energy of the string wanting to continue its up/down vibration movement, 
    but it will also exert that same directional force on the 
    bridge/soundboard... essentially attempting to vibrate the soundboard 
    <<sideways>> as it were. There has simply got to be some loss there.  If 
    all componets to the greatest degree posible exert forces on the 
    vibrating system in the same direction (i.e. upwards/downwards)  then 
    less (string) energy will go into dealing with any resistance to this 
    same motion. Less lost string energy would mean more for the system to 
    process into airborn soundwaves.
    
    Of course there are a lot of contributing factors to why this vertical 
    traveling pulse dissapates and eventually leaves the string vibrating in 
    a somewhat ellipitical standing wave. End conditions, string 
    consistancy, interference of the two initial traveling waves on each 
    other... etc.  Point being that loss is built into the system no matter 
    which way  you look.  But vertical termination purports to reduce one of 
    these loss components to a degree significant enough to increase the 
    overall output of the strings input energy ...  or said elstwise... 
    increase sustain. 
    
    Since the math evidently backs it up and there is to date nothing 
    concrete that remotely refutes the claim,  I think it should be looked 
    at with great interest instead of skeptism.  Working on the <<buzz>> 
    problem of vertical terminations should be more on our minds then 
    anything else.
    
    Just a few thoughts from over here :)
    
    Cheers
    RicB
    
    
    
    Ric Moody writes
    
    /Your pictures show an interesting concept of how to keep a piano string 
    from buzzing on top of the bridge (without to much down bearing) . Is this
    an agraffe on the bridge? How is it actually mounted? Threaded, or 
    driven orglued? How does this sound? It must be acceptable as in better than
    digital. These days most digitals are beginning to sound better than 
    most grands under 5'2" at least through loud speakers (including sound
    reinforcement).
    
    
    The other concern (theoretical) is that a string resting on a bridge by 
    itself transmits its vibrations directly. A string going through a big 
    brass agraffe must also move the mass of that agraffe which might be 
    many times more than the string itself so I wonder what the acoustic or 
    sonic effect might be? I would love to hear it because it seems such an 
    object might be made to solve the problem of down bearing controlled to 
    .001 inch for each string.
    
    Ric Moody/
    


  • 65.  string termination

    Posted 08-19-2005 12:29
      |   view attached
    From "Delwin D Fandrich" <fandrich@pianobuilders.com>
    
    | 


  • 66.  string termination

    Posted 08-19-2005 14:37
    From St?phane Collin <collin.s@skynet.be>
    
    Hello list.
    
    Here are two pics (sorry for the bad quality) of a Pleyel 1864 solution : 
    capo all along with wooden guides for spacing.
    
    Best regards.
    
    St?phane Collin.
    
    > | > The capo through the whole piano is fine from a termination
    > | standpoint, but I'd want something in the capo to space the
    > | strings evenly.  When you get down to the point of tri-chord
    > | dampers string spacing gets very important.
    > |
    > | Good point.