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FW: re: Rebushing keys, was ...VS Profelt

  • 1.  FW: re: Rebushing keys, was ...VS Profelt

    Posted 04-02-2010 13:17 
    From "Joseph Garrett" <joegarrett@earthlink.net>

OOPS! Hit the wrong key.
The average Tech should be able to rebush a set of keys in, around, two hours fyi.
Joe

Joe Garrett, R.P.T. (Oregon)
Captain, Tool Police
Squares R I


  • 2.  FW: re: Rebushing keys, was ...VS Profelt

    Posted 04-02-2010 13:16 
    From Ryan Sowers <tunerryan@gmail.com>

I don't know Joe! Are you counting everything?: removing the action and
keys, putting keys in key clamps, numbering keys, soaking out/removing old
bushings, repairing cracked key buttons as needed, getting the glue ready,
selecting proper felt thickness, ironing felt (yes I do this), cleaning and
lubing the keypins, fitting the keys back on the keyframe, did I leave
anything out?

I'd say 3-4 hours is more realistic for the complete job. But maybe I'm a
slowpoke ; )

Rainy Friday afternoon. Should be working...Don't really feel like it.



On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 12:17 PM, Joseph Garrett <joegarrett@earthlink.net>wrote:

>  OOPS! Hit the wrong key.
> The average Tech should be able to rebush a set of keys in, around, two
> hours fyi.
> Joe
>
>  Joe Garrett, R.P.T. (Oregon)
> Captain, Tool Police
> Squares R I
>
>
>
>
> 
    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message


  • 3.  FW: re: Rebushing keys, was ...VS Profelt

    Posted 04-02-2010 14:35 
    From Paul T Williams <pwilliams4@unlnotes.unl.edu>

I guess you're right, Ryan.  With all the prep time, deciding the project 
attack plan, getting all ready, re-fitting the keys, etc.,  about 3.5 
hours., so $135  is a steal for those who charge only that much. (from 
another post) Why do you iron the felt? I re-bush lots and lots here at 
UNL, but have never ironed.  I also rub teflon on the new cloth as well. 
It helps prolong their life. Cleaning and lubing keypins can be done while 
the mortise sizing cauls are in place.

For those of you who re-bush others' keys, do you require the keyframe as 
well.  You should.  How could you do a good job without it?

Paul




From:
Ryan Sowers <tunerryan@gmail.com>
To:
joegarrett@earthlink.net, pianotech@ptg.org
Date:
04/02/2010 02:16 PM
Subject:
Re: [pianotech] FW: re: Rebushing keys, was ...VS Profelt



I don't know Joe! Are you counting everything?: removing the action and 
keys, putting keys in key clamps, numbering keys, soaking out/removing old 
bushings, repairing cracked key buttons as needed, getting the glue ready, 
selecting proper felt thickness, ironing felt (yes I do this), cleaning 
and lubing the keypins, fitting the keys back on the keyframe, did I leave 
anything out?

I'd say 3-4 hours is more realistic for the complete job. But maybe I'm a 
slowpoke ; )

Rainy Friday afternoon. Should be working...Don't really feel like it. 



On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 12:17 PM, Joseph Garrett <joegarrett@earthlink.net> 
wrote:
OOPS! Hit the wrong key.
The average Tech should be able to rebush a set of keys in, around, two 
hours fyi.
Joe
 
Joe Garrett, R.P.T. (Oregon)
Captain, Tool Police
Squares R I
 
 
 

    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message


  • 4.  FW: re: Rebushing keys, was ...VS Profelt

    Posted 04-02-2010 13:59 
    From "David Ilvedson" <ilvey@sbcglobal.net>

I size mortices with very thin hot hide glue.   I also tend to do one side and let it dry overnight, then I can get a perfect fit of cloth for the final caul.  It seems to me the one sided caul will let the other bushing flap lift if not held down.   I like the both cauls to be snug.   I can't do it 2 hours and be happy...
I also apply microfine teflon powder to the finished bushings...

David Ilvedson, RPT
Pacifica, CA  94044


    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message


  • 5.  FW: re: Rebushing keys, was ...VS Profelt

    Posted 04-02-2010 14:39
      |   view attached 
    From Ryan Sowers <tunerryan@gmail.com>

I know what you mean about the single shouldered cauls. I finally bought
some double shouldered final cauls form Bill Spurlock. They don't lean to
the side as much as the single shouldered cauls.

The other thing about keybushing that I don't here discussed much is how to
make the balance rail snug enough. If you leave regular cauls in until they
are completely dry they will be way too loose for my taste. I actually
ordered a set of cauls from BiIl that are not oversized (the regular cauls
are .148"). Even so, I remove the cauls after about 15 minutes so they can
swell slightly. Otherwise they are too loose. A snug balance rail bushing
rarely causes a sticky key, and it will correct a lot of key squaring issues
making key leveling easier an quicker.

Lastly, we are pretty careful in our felt selection in order to get the
proper fit. Sometimes we use one size on one side of the mortise and a
slightly larger or smaller size on the other side to get the ideal fit. We
also order strips occasionally from Renner or Pianotek. The size varies
depending on the batch and we like having a good variety of sizes.

I find a spring loaded thickness guage like the Mitutoyo the Pianotek sells
for $125 is extremely helpful for sorting bushing felt (and all sorts of
other cloths and punchings, etc.)


 There's one available at Amazon for $40 + shipping.
http://www.amazon.com/POCKET-THICKNESS-GAUGE-Accuracy-0-001/dp/B000IB9YV2

On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 12:58 PM, David Ilvedson <ilvey@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> I size mortices with very thin hot hide glue.   I also tend to do one side
> and let it dry overnight, then I can get a perfect fit of cloth for the
> final caul.  It seems to me the one sided caul will let the other bushing
> flap lift if not held down.   I like the both cauls to be snug.   I can't do
> it 2 hours and be happy...
> I also apply microfine teflon powder to the finished bushings...
>
> David Ilvedson, RPT
> Pacifica, CA  94044
>

-- 
Ryan Sowers, RPT
Puget Sound Chapter
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net


  • 6.  FW: re: Rebushing keys, was ...VS Profelt

    Posted 04-02-2010 14:24 
    From Paul T Williams <pwilliams4@unlnotes.unl.edu>

My personal best is 1.75 hrs.  but I avg 2 hrs, so that's about right. It 
depends on how stubborn the old bushings come out the afternoon before the 
new ones go in allowing for drying time with the proper mortise sizing 
cauls, etc....Now, if there is something really cool happening on my 
iTunes, I take longer so as to listen! :>)

Happy Easter all you Easterer's !  I will enjoy my last day off until May 
3rd!!

Paul




From:
"Joseph Garrett" <joegarrett@earthlink.net>
To:
"pianotech" <pianotech@ptg.org>
Date:
04/02/2010 01:17 PM
Subject:
[pianotech] FW: re: Rebushing keys, was ...VS Profelt



OOPS! Hit the wrong key.
The average Tech should be able to rebush a set of keys in, around, two 
hours fyi.
Joe
 
Joe Garrett, R.P.T. (Oregon)
Captain, Tool Police
Squares R I
 
 
 

    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message


  • 7.  FW: re: Rebushing keys, was ...VS Profelt

    Posted 04-02-2010 15:11 
    From "Joseph Garrett" <joegarrett@earthlink.net>

Ryan,
I was quoting the time it takes to BUSH a set of keys, not fit them..yadayada.I don't use "key clamps". I use pipe clamps, so that I can do the whole set at once. This system was started by the Fandrichs and Larry Erbes, in the 70's.  That includes: removing old cloth and inserting new cloth. The glue, etc. should already be at hand and ready for whatever your shop dictates for any given day, IMHO. If you use metal cauls, it would also include heat sizing after the cloth is inserted. I place an iron on top of the cauls at the wool setting. Heat up the cauls and move to the next iron length. If done this way, I find I have very little "fitting" to do. Oh, forgot...I glue size the balance rail holes in the process...takes about 5 minutes. Hide glue and water, (cold type), 50-50 and a set of appropriate sized balance pins are inserted after the drops of glue are applied. 
Regards,
Joe

Joe Garrett, R.P.T. (Oregon)
Captain, Tool Police
Squares R I




    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message


  • 8.  FW: re: Rebushing keys, was ...VS Profelt

    Posted 04-02-2010 15:14 
    From David Ilvedson <ilvey@sbcglobal.net>

I like a tighter fit leaving over night.   I don't have problems like loose bushings of if I take the time.

David Ilvedson
Pacifica, CA

On Apr 2, 2010, at 1:38 PM, Ryan Sowers <tunerryan@gmail.com> wrote:

I know what you mean about the single shouldered cauls. I finally bought some double shouldered final cauls form Bill Spurlock. They don't lean to the side as much as the single shouldered cauls. 

The other thing about keybushing that I don't here discussed much is how to make the balance rail snug enough. If you leave regular cauls in until they are completely dry they will be way too loose for my taste. I actually ordered a set of cauls from BiIl that are not oversized (the regular cauls are .148"). Even so, I remove the cauls after about 15 minutes so they can swell slightly. Otherwise they are too loose. A snug balance rail bushing rarely causes a sticky key, and it will correct a lot of key squaring issues making key leveling easier an quicker. 

Lastly, we are pretty careful in our felt selection in order to get the proper fit. Sometimes we use one size on one side of the mortise and a slightly larger or smaller size on the other side to get the ideal fit. We also order strips occasionally from Renner or Pianotek. The size varies depending on the batch and we like having a good variety of sizes. 

I find a spring loaded thickness guage like the Mitutoyo the Pianotek sells for $125 is extremely helpful for sorting bushing felt (and all sorts of other cloths and punchings, etc.)


 There's one available at Amazon for $40 + shipping. http://www.amazon.com/POCKET-THICKNESS-GAUGE-Accuracy-0-001/dp/B000IB9YV2

On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 12:58 PM, David Ilvedson <ilvey@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
I size mortices with very thin hot hide glue.   I also tend to do one side and let it dry overnight, then I can get a perfect fit of cloth for the final caul.  It seems to me the one sided caul will let the other bushing flap lift if not held down.   I like the both cauls to be snug.   I can't do it 2 hours and be happy...
I also apply microfine teflon powder to the finished bushings...

David Ilvedson, RPT
Pacifica, CA  94044

-- 
Ryan Sowers, RPT
Puget Sound Chapter
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
<thickness gauge.jpg>


  • 9.  FW: re: Rebushing keys, was ...VS Profelt

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-02-2010 16:33 
    From "David Love" <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>

What's too loose?  A "snug" balance rail bushing may not cause a sticking
key but it sure can cause a lot of excess friction.   

 

David Love

www.davidlovepianos.com

 


On Apr 2, 2010, at 1:38 PM, Ryan Sowers <tunerryan@gmail.com> wrote:


The other thing about keybushing that I don't here discussed much is how to
make the balance rail snug enough. If you leave regular cauls in until they
are completely dry they will be way too loose for my taste. I actually
ordered a set of cauls from BiIl that are not oversized (the regular cauls
are .148"). Even so, I remove the cauls after about 15 minutes so they can
swell slightly. Otherwise they are too loose. A snug balance rail bushing
rarely causes a sticky key, and it will correct a lot of key squaring issues
making key leveling easier an quicker.


  • 10.  FW: re: Rebushing keys, was ...VS Profelt

    Posted 04-02-2010 17:02 
    From Ryan Sowers <tunerryan@gmail.com>

I would answer by saying "just enough". When I say snug I mean "not loose".
If you let a balance rail bushing dry with a standard .146 caul it will come
out too loose.

Yamaha specifies .008" for the balance rail. That's not a lot.

On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 3:32 PM, David Love <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>wrote:

>  What?s too loose?  A ?snug? balance rail bushing may not cause a sticking
> key but it sure can cause a lot of excess friction.
>
>
>
> David Love
>
> www.davidlovepianos.com
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 2, 2010, at 1:38 PM, Ryan Sowers <tunerryan@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> The other thing about keybushing that I don't here discussed much is how to
> make the balance rail snug enough. If you leave regular cauls in until they
> are completely dry they will be way too loose for my taste. I actually
> ordered a set of cauls from BiIl that are not oversized (the regular cauls
> are .148"). Even so, I remove the cauls after about 15 minutes so they can
> swell slightly. Otherwise they are too loose. A snug balance rail bushing
> rarely causes a sticky key, and it will correct a lot of key squaring issues
> making key leveling easier an quicker.
>
>
>


-- 
Ryan Sowers, RPT
Puget Sound Chapter
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net


  • 11.  FW: re: Rebushing keys, was ...VS Profelt

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-02-2010 17:51 
    From "David Love" <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>

Well, it depends on the size of the key pin.  The balance rail bushing, in
my opinion, should not be "snug" meaning there should be virtually no
friction there at all-certainly no squeezing.   Nor should it be snug enough
to wear a small indention where the balance rail pin contacts the bushing.
Have you done a weigh off (up and down weight) measuring with a "snug"
fitting and one that is relatively frictionless?  You might be surprised at
how much excess friction can be created there.  Do you mean that Yamaha
specifies that the width of the bushed mortise is .008 wider than the BRP?
That's fine but that's not snug, that's free by a factor of .008".  Having
done many weigh-offs with both UW and DW and calculated friction and then
going back to find the culprit I often find that the balance rail bushing is
responsible.  The Spurlock cauls when fitted with the proper cloth produce a
perfect fit if you follow his instructions about how tight the dry fit
should be which is tight enough to be able to lift the key gently but loose
enough to be pulled out with relative ease.  After the hot glue sizes the
bushing with water present in the glue the caul should come out very easily
as it's only o/s by about what you mention (maybe less actually-don't
recall).  One thing to be careful of with the dry fit is that the caul is
not binding on the ends of the mortise so that what feels like a snug fit
when dry fitting is actually the caul hitting the ends of the mortise and
not representative of the fit with the bushing cloth-can happen.  

 

After I remove the cauls I go through with a single caul and test the fit
through the entire set.  The caul, in my view, should slip in and out of the
mortise easily with virtually no binding  (and no slop either).  The insures
that you actually have the play that you need there.  Afterwards you can
also then dust the bushing with dry Teflon powder to help with wear-and
don't forget to polish the keypins (what fun).  

 

David Love

www.davidlovepianos.com

 

From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
Of Ryan Sowers
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 4:02 PM
To: pianotech@ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] FW: re: Rebushing keys, was ...VS Profelt

 

I would answer by saying "just enough". When I say snug I mean "not loose".
If you let a balance rail bushing dry with a standard .146 caul it will come
out too loose. 

Yamaha specifies .008" for the balance rail. That's not a lot.

On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 3:32 PM, David Love <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>
wrote:

What's too loose?  A "snug" balance rail bushing may not cause a sticking
key but it sure can cause a lot of excess friction.   

 

David Love

www.davidlovepianos.com

 


On Apr 2, 2010, at 1:38 PM, Ryan Sowers <tunerryan@gmail.com> wrote:


The other thing about keybushing that I don't here discussed much is how to
make the balance rail snug enough. If you leave regular cauls in until they
are completely dry they will be way too loose for my taste. I actually
ordered a set of cauls from BiIl that are not oversized (the regular cauls
are .148"). Even so, I remove the cauls after about 15 minutes so they can
swell slightly. Otherwise they are too loose. A snug balance rail bushing
rarely causes a sticky key, and it will correct a lot of key squaring issues
making key leveling easier an quicker. 






-- 
Ryan Sowers, RPT
Puget Sound Chapter
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net


  • 12.  FW: re: Rebushing keys, was ...VS Profelt

    Posted 04-02-2010 18:17 
    From Ryan Sowers <tunerryan@gmail.com>

I was thinking snug meant a close fit - not tight. But anyways, your
description is nicely written. There's always room to learn new things -
even with keybushings!

On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 4:51 PM, David Love <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>wrote:

>  Well, it depends on the size of the key pin.  The balance rail bushing,
> in my opinion, should not be ?snug? meaning there should be virtually no
> friction there at all?certainly no squeezing.   Nor should it be snug enough
> to wear a small indention where the balance rail pin contacts the bushing.
> Have you done a weigh off (up and down weight) measuring with a ?snug?
> fitting and one that is relatively frictionless?  You might be surprised at
> how much excess friction can be created there.  Do you mean that Yamaha
> specifies that the width of the bushed mortise is .008 wider than the BRP?
> That?s fine but that?s not snug, that?s free by a factor of .008?.  Having
> done many weigh-offs with both UW and DW and calculated friction and then
> going back to find the culprit I often find that the balance rail bushing is
> responsible.  The Spurlock cauls when fitted with the proper cloth produce a
> perfect fit if you follow his instructions about how tight the dry fit
> should be which is tight enough to be able to lift the key gently but loose
> enough to be pulled out with relative ease.  After the hot glue sizes the
> bushing with water present in the glue the caul should come out very easily
> as it?s only o/s by about what you mention (maybe less actually?don?t
> recall).  One thing to be careful of with the dry fit is that the caul is
> not binding on the ends of the mortise so that what feels like a snug fit
> when dry fitting is actually the caul hitting the ends of the mortise and
> not representative of the fit with the bushing cloth?can happen.
>
>
>
> After I remove the cauls I go through with a single caul and test the fit
> through the entire set.  The caul, in my view, should slip in and out of the
> mortise easily with virtually no binding  (and no slop either).  The insures
> that you actually have the play that you need there.  Afterwards you can
> also then dust the bushing with dry Teflon powder to help with wear?and
> don?t forget to polish the keypins (what fun).
>
>
>
> David Love
>
> www.davidlovepianos.com
>
>
>
> *From:* pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Ryan Sowers
> *Sent:* Friday, April 02, 2010 4:02 PM
> *To:* pianotech@ptg.org
>
> *Subject:* Re: [pianotech] FW: re: Rebushing keys, was ...VS Profelt
>
>
>
> I would answer by saying "just enough". When I say snug I mean "not loose".
> If you let a balance rail bushing dry with a standard .146 caul it will come
> out too loose.
>
> Yamaha specifies .008" for the balance rail. That's not a lot.
>
> On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 3:32 PM, David Love <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
> What?s too loose?  A ?snug? balance rail bushing may not cause a sticking
> key but it sure can cause a lot of excess friction.
>
>
>
> David Love
>
> www.davidlovepianos.com
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 2, 2010, at 1:38 PM, Ryan Sowers <tunerryan@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> The other thing about keybushing that I don't here discussed much is how to
> make the balance rail snug enough. If you leave regular cauls in until they
> are completely dry they will be way too loose for my taste. I actually
> ordered a set of cauls from BiIl that are not oversized (the regular cauls
> are .148"). Even so, I remove the cauls after about 15 minutes so they can
> swell slightly. Otherwise they are too loose. A snug balance rail bushing
> rarely causes a sticky key, and it will correct a lot of key squaring issues
> making key leveling easier an quicker.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Ryan Sowers, RPT
> Puget Sound Chapter
> Olympia, WA
> www.pianova.net
>



-- 
Ryan Sowers, RPT
Puget Sound Chapter
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net


  • 13.  FW: re: Rebushing keys, was ...VS Profelt

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-02-2010 20:22 
    From "David Love" <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>

Getting exact with the language and what we mean is always a challenge.
Seems we're on the same page.  

 

I will add to those who are talking about how fast they can do a key bushing
job not to forget to factor in the final sizing and checking at both the
balance rail and the front rail.  That can take almost as much time as
replacing them if done carefully with attention paid to friction levels in
the key.  

 

David Love

www.davidlovepianos.com

 

From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
Of Ryan Sowers
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 5:17 PM
To: pianotech@ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] FW: re: Rebushing keys, was ...VS Profelt

 

I was thinking snug meant a close fit - not tight. But anyways, your
description is nicely written. There's always room to learn new things -
even with keybushings!


  • 14.  FW: re: Rebushing keys, was ...VS Profelt

    Posted 04-02-2010 17:57 
    From "David Ilvedson" <ilvey@sbcglobal.net>

No, your cloth is too thin...go up to the next size...try for a snugger fit...

David Ilvedson, RPT
Pacifica, CA  94044


    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message