PianoTech Archive

From Noah Frere <noahfrere@gmail.com>

I searched my not inconsiderable archives for an answer, but have come up
empty-handed. I am using 1/0 Denro blued tuning pins in a new multi-lam
Maple pinblock, and need to order the drill bit. I'd like to double-drill -
makes sense. The Pianotek catalog recommends, in effect, a drill bit .016"
to .021" under the diameter of a 2/0 pin in a multi-lam pinblock. Following
that logic, I could use the .250" on the first pass, and the .261" (.015"
under) or .257" (.019" under) drill bit on the second pass. Also, I like
the idea of the brad-points, but also like the idea of the other ones,
which are "slow spiral."  Any recommendations?

From "Greg Newell" <gnewell@ameritech.net>

Test, test, test!

 

From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
Of Noah Frere
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 2:57 PM
To: pianotech@ptg.org
Subject: [pianotech] Size of Pinblock Drill bit?

 

I searched my not inconsiderable archives for an answer, but have come up
empty-handed. I am using 1/0 Denro blued tuning pins in a new multi-lam
Maple pinblock, and need to order the drill bit. I'd like to double-drill -
makes sense. The Pianotek catalog recommends, in effect, a drill bit .016"
to .021" under the diameter of a 2/0 pin in a multi-lam pinblock. Following
that logic, I could use the .250" on the first pass, and the .261" (.015"
under) or .257" (.019" under) drill bit on the second pass. Also, I like the
idea of the brad-points, but also like the idea of the other ones, which are
"slow spiral."  Any recommendations?

From Noah Frere <noahfrere@gmail.com>

trying to not spend $30 extra, but yes that is a good option


On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 3:07 PM, Greg Newell <gnewell@ameritech.net> wrote:

> Test, test, test!****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Noah Frere
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 06, 2013 2:57 PM
> *To:* pianotech@ptg.org
> *Subject:* [pianotech] Size of Pinblock Drill bit?****
>
> ** **
>
> I searched my not inconsiderable archives for an answer, but have come up
> empty-handed. I am using 1/0 Denro blued tuning pins in a new multi-lam
> Maple pinblock, and need to order the drill bit. I'd like to double-drill -
> makes sense. The Pianotek catalog recommends, in effect, a drill bit .016"
> to .021" under the diameter of a 2/0 pin in a multi-lam pinblock. Following
> that logic, I could use the .250" on the first pass, and the .261" (.015"
> under) or .257" (.019" under) drill bit on the second pass. Also, I like
> the idea of the brad-points, but also like the idea of the other ones,
> which are "slow spiral."  Any recommendations?****
>

From paul bruesch <paul@bruesch.net>

I assume you mean brad-point for the initial, rough-in drilling. I'd think
you'd want split point for the chase bit.

Paul Bruesch
Stillwater, MN


On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Noah Frere <noahfrere@gmail.com> wrote:

> I searched my not inconsiderable archives for an answer, but have come up
> empty-handed. I am using 1/0 Denro blued tuning pins in a new multi-lam
> Maple pinblock, and need to order the drill bit. I'd like to double-drill -
> makes sense. The Pianotek catalog recommends, in effect, a drill bit .016"
> to .021" under the diameter of a 2/0 pin in a multi-lam pinblock. Following
> that logic, I could use the .250" on the first pass, and the .261" (.015"
> under) or .257" (.019" under) drill bit on the second pass. Also, I like
> the idea of the brad-points, but also like the idea of the other ones,
> which are "slow spiral."  Any recommendations?
>

From "Steve Jackson" <steve@stevejacksonpianos.com>

I find .250 works well with that block and Diamond #2 pins.
Denro pins and that block may not be the best choice.

Steve

> I searched my not inconsiderable archives for an answer, but have come up
> empty-handed. I am using 1/0 Denro blued tuning pins in a new multi-lam
> Maple pinblock, and need to order the drill bit. I'd like to double-drill
> -
> makes sense. The Pianotek catalog recommends, in effect, a drill bit .016"
> to .021" under the diameter of a 2/0 pin in a multi-lam pinblock.
> Following
> that logic, I could use the .250" on the first pass, and the .261" (.015"
> under) or .257" (.019" under) drill bit on the second pass. Also, I like
> the idea of the brad-points, but also like the idea of the other ones,
> which are "slow spiral."  Any recommendations?
>


-- 
http://stevejacksonpianos.com

From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>

On 3/6/2013 1:57 PM, Noah Frere wrote:
> I searched my not inconsiderable archives for an answer, but have come
> up empty-handed. I am using 1/0 Denro blued tuning pins in a new
> multi-lam Maple pinblock, and need to order the drill bit. I'd like to
> double-drill - makes sense. The Pianotek catalog recommends, in effect,
> a drill bit .016" to .021" under the diameter of a 2/0 pin in a
> multi-lam pinblock. Following that logic, I could use the .250" on the
> first pass, and the .261" (.015" under) or .257" (.019" under) drill bit
> on the second pass. Also, I like the idea of the brad-points, but also
> like the idea of the other ones, which are "slow spiral."  Any
> recommendations?

You can't use brad points on the second pass anyway, so decide if they 
will get you anything desirable on the first and buy accordingly. Slow 
spiral, definitely, particularly on the second pass. The 0.250" should 
be fine for the first pass. As to final size, as Greg said, test - etc.

Why 1/0?

Ron N

From Noah Frere <noahfrere@gmail.com>

Good point both of you on the brad point. Why 1/0?  From what i understand,
it has a nicer feel because of the decreased surface area contact with the
wood. Plus it leaves more room for coils and string clearance. Plus they're
less expensive i think (though that is an after-thought). Plus i like fine
things. Thinner is finer :)  Any reason why not?


On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 3:56 PM, Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net> wrote:

> On 3/6/2013 1:57 PM, Noah Frere wrote:
>
>> I searched my not inconsiderable archives for an answer, but have come
>> up empty-handed. I am using 1/0 Denro blued tuning pins in a new
>> multi-lam Maple pinblock, and need to order the drill bit. I'd like to
>> double-drill - makes sense. The Pianotek catalog recommends, in effect,
>> a drill bit .016" to .021" under the diameter of a 2/0 pin in a
>> multi-lam pinblock. Following that logic, I could use the .250" on the
>> first pass, and the .261" (.015" under) or .257" (.019" under) drill bit
>> on the second pass. Also, I like the idea of the brad-points, but also
>> like the idea of the other ones, which are "slow spiral."  Any
>> recommendations?
>>
>
> You can't use brad points on the second pass anyway, so decide if they
> will get you anything desirable on the first and buy accordingly. Slow
> spiral, definitely, particularly on the second pass. The 0.250" should be
> fine for the first pass. As to final size, as Greg said, test - etc.
>
> Why 1/0?
>
> Ron N
>

From Alan Eder <reggaepass@aol.com>

Well, if the tuning pin holes in your plate holes have bushings (like on Yamahas), or it is an open window plate (i. e., no cast iron web over the pinblock around the tuning pins, like on many Bosendorfers), 1/0 may work. But if it is, say, Steinway style (covered block, no bushings), then you may find that 1/0 tuning pins flagpole excessively, what with the coil that high off the first point of support for the tuning pin. 


Make sense?



Alan Eder




                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                Original Message-----
From: Noah Frere <noahfrere@gmail.com>
To: pianotech <pianotech@ptg.org>
Sent: Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:21 pm
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Size of Pinblock Drill bit?


Good point both of you on the brad point. Why 1/0?  From what i understand, it has a nicer feel because of the decreased surface area contact with the wood. Plus it leaves more room for coils and string clearance. Plus they're less expensive i think (though that is an after-thought). Plus i like fine things. Thinner is finer :)  Any reason why not?




On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 3:56 PM, Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net> wrote:


On 3/6/2013 1:57 PM, Noah Frere wrote:

I searched my not inconsiderable archives for an answer, but have come
up empty-handed. I am using 1/0 Denro blued tuning pins in a new
multi-lam Maple pinblock, and need to order the drill bit. I'd like to
double-drill - makes sense. The Pianotek catalog recommends, in effect,
a drill bit .016" to .021" under the diameter of a 2/0 pin in a
multi-lam pinblock. Following that logic, I could use the .250" on the
first pass, and the .261" (.015" under) or .257" (.019" under) drill bit
on the second pass. Also, I like the idea of the brad-points, but also
like the idea of the other ones, which are "slow spiral."  Any
recommendations?



You can't use brad points on the second pass anyway, so decide if they will get you anything desirable on the first and buy accordingly. Slow spiral, definitely, particularly on the second pass. The 0.250" should be fine for the first pass. As to final size, as Greg said, test - etc.

Why 1/0?

Ron N



 

From Noah Frere <noahfrere@gmail.com>

Alan, no I don't understand why that would be, unless the thinner diameter
flagpoles more easily due to less strength, but I don't see why
plate-proximity would effect that. However, it is an open-faced block, or
3/4 plate. (Actually, it's more like 7/8 plate).


On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 4:32 PM, Alan Eder <reggaepass@aol.com> wrote:

> Well, if the tuning pin holes in your plate holes have bushings (like on
> Yamahas), or it is an open window plate (i. e., no cast iron web over the
> pinblock around the tuning pins, like on many Bosendorfers), 1/0 may work.
> But if it is, say, Steinway style (covered block, no bushings), then you
> may find that 1/0 tuning pins flagpole excessively, what with the coil that
> high off the first point of support for the tuning pin.
>
>  Make sense?
>
>  Alan Eder
>
> 

                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                Original Message-----
> From: Noah Frere <noahfrere@gmail.com>
> To: pianotech <pianotech@ptg.org>
> Sent: Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:21 pm
> Subject: Re: [pianotech] Size of Pinblock Drill bit?
>
>  Good point both of you on the brad point. Why 1/0?  From what i
> understand, it has a nicer feel because of the decreased surface area
> contact with the wood. Plus it leaves more room for coils and string
> clearance. Plus they're less expensive i think (though that is an
> after-thought). Plus i like fine things. Thinner is finer :)  Any reason
> why not?
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 3:56 PM, Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>  On 3/6/2013 1:57 PM, Noah Frere wrote:
>>
>>> I searched my not inconsiderable archives for an answer, but have come
>>> up empty-handed. I am using 1/0 Denro blued tuning pins in a new
>>> multi-lam Maple pinblock, and need to order the drill bit. I'd like to
>>> double-drill - makes sense. The Pianotek catalog recommends, in effect,
>>> a drill bit .016" to .021" under the diameter of a 2/0 pin in a
>>> multi-lam pinblock. Following that logic, I could use the .250" on the
>>> first pass, and the .261" (.015" under) or .257" (.019" under) drill bit
>>> on the second pass. Also, I like the idea of the brad-points, but also
>>> like the idea of the other ones, which are "slow spiral."  Any
>>> recommendations?
>>>
>>
>>  You can't use brad points on the second pass anyway, so decide if they
>> will get you anything desirable on the first and buy accordingly. Slow
>> spiral, definitely, particularly on the second pass. The 0.250" should be
>> fine for the first pass. As to final size, as Greg said, test - etc.
>>
>> Why 1/0?
>>
>> Ron N
>>
>
>

From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>

On 3/6/2013 3:45 PM, Noah Frere wrote:
> Alan, no I don't understand why that would be, unless the thinner
> diameter flagpoles more easily due to less strength, but I don't see why
> plate-proximity would effect that. However, it is an open-faced block,
> or 3/4 plate. (Actually, it's more like 7/8 plate).

Then 1/0 would work fine, if you don't mind the tip shuffle to tune it, 
though a 2/0 tip will likely work anyway.
Ron N

From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>

On 3/6/2013 3:13 PM, Noah Frere wrote:
> Good point both of you on the brad point. Why 1/0?  From what i
> understand, it has a nicer feel because of the decreased surface area
> contact with the wood. Plus it leaves more room for coils and string
> clearance. Plus they're less expensive i think (though that is an
> after-thought). Plus i like fine things. Thinner is finer :)  Any reason
> why not?

Everything Alan said. I don't know what people have against Denro, but 
that's my first choice. Good aggressive cut thread, good uniformity. I'd 
definitely go 2/0 though.
Ron N

From "Dean May" <deanmay@pianorebuilders.com>

the friction resistance torque of the pinblock is the friction force times
the radius of the pin. So for a given interference friction, the larger
diameter pin will have more resistance torqe. 

 

Dean

Dean W May                (812) 235-5272 voice and text 

PianoRebuilders.com    (888) DEAN-MAY        

Terre Haute IN 47802

From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
Of Noah Frere
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 4:13 PM
To: pianotech@ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Size of Pinblock Drill bit?

 

Good point both of you on the brad point. Why 1/0?  From what i understand,
it has a nicer feel because of the decreased surface area contact with the
wood. Plus it leaves more room for coils and string clearance. Plus they're
less expensive i think (though that is an after-thought). Plus i like fine
things. Thinner is finer :)  Any reason why not?

 

On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 3:56 PM, Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net> wrote:

On 3/6/2013 1:57 PM, Noah Frere wrote:

I searched my not inconsiderable archives for an answer, but have come
up empty-handed. I am using 1/0 Denro blued tuning pins in a new
multi-lam Maple pinblock, and need to order the drill bit. I'd like to
double-drill - makes sense. The Pianotek catalog recommends, in effect,
a drill bit .016" to .021" under the diameter of a 2/0 pin in a
multi-lam pinblock. Following that logic, I could use the .250" on the
first pass, and the .261" (.015" under) or .257" (.019" under) drill bit
on the second pass. Also, I like the idea of the brad-points, but also
like the idea of the other ones, which are "slow spiral."  Any
recommendations?

 

You can't use brad points on the second pass anyway, so decide if they will
get you anything desirable on the first and buy accordingly. Slow spiral,
definitely, particularly on the second pass. The 0.250" should be fine for
the first pass. As to final size, as Greg said, test - etc.

Why 1/0?

Ron N

 

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6147 - Release Date: 03/04/13

From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>

On 3/6/2013 5:12 PM, Dean May wrote:
> the friction resistance torque of the pinblock is the friction force
> times the radius of the pin. So for a given interference friction, the
> larger diameter pin will have more resistance torqe.

Yep, and less tendency to flagpole. Life's little trade offs...
Ron N

From "Encore Pianos" <encorepianos@metrocast.net>

I've done a couple of hundred? Pinblocks over many years.  Naturally, I have
formed some ideas as to what works best.  I am not a fan of brad points,
they don't seem to stay sharp as long and don't clear chips well.  For very
many years, I have used good quality fast spiral drill bits because they
clear chips the best.  About 1100 RPM, feet at a steady rate, but do not
hog.  Feed rate is a developed feel, like porridge.  Not too fast, not too
slow - just right.  Compressor hose clears chips and keeps the bit cooler.
Use the shortest bit that will be long enough to drill the block, less
likely to bend as it seeks the index mark.  

 

As for the proper size, buy all 3.  The missing link here is the how much or
how little run out you have on your drill press - that will have an effect
on the diameter of the finished hole and will determine what size will work
best for you.   The length of tuning pin and how much of the thread is in
the block itself will also determine how much purchase the pin has on the
block. 

 

Also, the recommended sizes as shown in the Pianotek catalog are for 2/0
pins, which are .282 (sort of), while 1/0 pins are .276 (sort of).  You may
find that if you drill for 2/0 pins and use a 1/0 pin, your block may well
be too loose.  Use 2/0 pins unless there is some compelling reason to use
the smaller pin.

 

You will have left over stock after you make the block.  I keep mine and do
several test drillings.  I drive in tuning pins to the same depth and decide
which I like the best, which you can do by feel.  

 

Will Truitt

 

From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
Of Noah Frere
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 2:57 PM
To: pianotech@ptg.org
Subject: [pianotech] Size of Pinblock Drill bit?

 

I searched my not inconsiderable archives for an answer, but have come up
empty-handed. I am using 1/0 Denro blued tuning pins in a new multi-lam
Maple pinblock, and need to order the drill bit. I'd like to double-drill -
makes sense. The Pianotek catalog recommends, in effect, a drill bit .016"
to .021" under the diameter of a 2/0 pin in a multi-lam pinblock. Following
that logic, I could use the .250" on the first pass, and the .261" (.015"
under) or .257" (.019" under) drill bit on the second pass. Also, I like the
idea of the brad-points, but also like the idea of the other ones, which are
"slow spiral."  Any recommendations?

From Noah Frere <noahfrere@gmail.com>

Will, thanks for the "feed"back.

the old pins were only .265", smaller than 1/0. I prefer to keep it in that
range. You said "You may find that if you drill for 2/0 pins and use a 1/0
pin, your block may well be too loose." I would not drill for 2/0 pins. I
will do as you suggest, and order all 3.

I actually don't have a drill press yet. If anyone has any mid-priced
suggestions, feel free :)



On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 4:13 PM, Encore Pianos <encorepianos@metrocast.net>wrote:

> I?ve done a couple of hundred? Pinblocks over many years.  Naturally, I
> have formed some ideas as to what works best.  I am not a fan of brad
> points, they don?t seem to stay sharp as long and don?t clear chips well.
> For very many years, I have used good quality fast spiral drill bits
> because they clear chips the best.  About 1100 RPM, feet at a steady rate,
> but do not hog.  Feed rate is a developed feel, like porridge.  Not too
> fast, not too slow ? just right.  Compressor hose clears chips and keeps
> the bit cooler.  Use the shortest bit that will be long enough to drill the
> block, less likely to bend as it seeks the index mark.  ****
>
> ** **
>
> As for the proper size, buy all 3.  The missing link here is the how much
> or how little run out you have on your drill press ? that will have an
> effect on the diameter of the finished hole and will determine what size
> will work best for you.   The length of tuning pin and how much of the
> thread is in the block itself will also determine how much purchase the pin
> has on the block. ****
>
> ** **
>
> Also, the recommended sizes as shown in the Pianotek catalog are for 2/0
> pins, which are .282 (sort of), while 1/0 pins are .276 (sort of).  You may
> find that if you drill for 2/0 pins and use a 1/0 pin, your block may well
> be too loose.  Use 2/0 pins unless there is some compelling reason to use
> the smaller pin.****
>
> ** **
>
> You will have left over stock after you make the block.  I keep mine and
> do several test drillings.  I drive in tuning pins to the same depth and
> decide which I like the best, which you can do by feel.  ****
>
> ** **
>
> Will Truitt****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Noah Frere
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 06, 2013 2:57 PM
> *To:* pianotech@ptg.org
> *Subject:* [pianotech] Size of Pinblock Drill bit?****
>
> ** **
>
> I searched my not inconsiderable archives for an answer, but have come up
> empty-handed. I am using 1/0 Denro blued tuning pins in a new multi-lam
> Maple pinblock, and need to order the drill bit. I'd like to double-drill -
> makes sense. The Pianotek catalog recommends, in effect, a drill bit .016"
> to .021" under the diameter of a 2/0 pin in a multi-lam pinblock. Following
> that logic, I could use the .250" on the first pass, and the .261" (.015"
> under) or .257" (.019" under) drill bit on the second pass. Also, I like
> the idea of the brad-points, but also like the idea of the other ones,
> which are "slow spiral."  Any recommendations?****
>

From Terry Farrell <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>

"I actually don't have a drill press yet. If anyone has any mid-priced suggestions..."

I've been using a $79 Sears special for many years. I upgraded it with a high-quality (low run-out) chuck. It has served me very well. A larger, heavier drill press would always be welcome - but you can get by with a small one if you wish. Just be sure to put a good chuck on it - I think mine is a Jacobs and cost around $100.

Terry Farrell


On Mar 6, 2013, at 4:38 PM, Noah Frere wrote:

> Will, thanks for the "feed"back.
> 
> the old pins were only .265", smaller than 1/0. I prefer to keep it in that range. You said "You may find that if you drill for 2/0 pins and use a 1/0 pin, your block may well be too loose." I would not drill for 2/0 pins. I will do as you suggest, and order all 3.
> 
> I actually don't have a drill press yet. If anyone has any mid-priced suggestions, feel free :)

From Noah Frere <noahfrere@gmail.com>

enlightening. I had already planned on upgrading the chuck, but never
imagined a drill press could be bought for so cheap. Of course that was
like many many years ago...


On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 8:57 PM, Terry Farrell <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>wrote:

> "I actually don't have a drill press yet. If anyone has any mid-priced
> suggestions..."
>
> I've been using a $79 Sears special for many years. I upgraded it with a
> high-quality (low run-out) chuck. It has served me very well. A larger,
> heavier drill press would always be welcome - but you can get by with a
> small one if you wish. Just be sure to put a good chuck on it - I think
> mine is a Jacobs and cost around $100.
>
> Terry Farrell
>
>
> On Mar 6, 2013, at 4:38 PM, Noah Frere wrote:
>
> Will, thanks for the "feed"back.
>
> the old pins were only .265", smaller than 1/0. I prefer to keep it in
> that range. You said "You may find that if you drill for 2/0 pins and use
> a 1/0 pin, your block may well be too loose." I would not drill for 2/0
> pins. I will do as you suggest, and order all 3.
>
> I actually don't have a drill press yet. If anyone has any mid-priced
> suggestions, feel free :)
>
>

From Terry Farrell <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>

Ummmmm, probably about 13 or 14 years ago. Looks like their lowest-end drill press runs about $95 now. I did get mine on sale - so it doesn't look like they've gone up in price all that much.

http://www.sears.com/tools-bench-stationary-power-tools-drill-presses/s-1021248

Now I'm not suggesting that it's not worth it to buy a larger/higher-quality drill press - more stable, more power, deeper throat, etc., etc. I do have a larger one now for the benchtop, but I still do use my little Sears fellow for drilling pinblocks and plates as I have it mounted upside-down on my overhead drill press.







Tilts to any angle, rotates 360 degrees, vertical adjustment about 8 inches, X-direction travel is about 8 feet and Y direction travel is about a foot. A goofy thing that I'd likely not ever build again if I moved to a new shop (would build a floating press, ala Ron N), but as long at it is here, it works very well and I really enjoy it.

Except when I don't have the drill mounted on it and I walk into it - the base is about 5' 8" off the floor, and I'm 6' 0". Ouch!

Terry Farrell

On Mar 6, 2013, at 11:15 PM, Noah Frere wrote:

> enlightening. I had already planned on upgrading the chuck, but never imagined a drill press could be bought for so cheap. Of course that was like many many years ago...
> 
> 
> On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 8:57 PM, Terry Farrell <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> "I actually don't have a drill press yet. If anyone has any mid-priced suggestions..."
> 
> I've been using a $79 Sears special for many years. I upgraded it with a high-quality (low run-out) chuck. It has served me very well. A larger, heavier drill press would always be welcome - but you can get by with a small one if you wish. Just be sure to put a good chuck on it - I think mine is a Jacobs and cost around $100.
> 
> Terry Farrell
> 
> 
> On Mar 6, 2013, at 4:38 PM, Noah Frere wrote:
> 
>> Will, thanks for the "feed"back.
>> 
>> the old pins were only .265", smaller than 1/0. I prefer to keep it in that range. You said "You may find that if you drill for 2/0 pins and use a 1/0 pin, your block may well be too loose." I would not drill for 2/0 pins. I will do as you suggest, and order all 3.
>> 
>> I actually don't have a drill press yet. If anyone has any mid-priced suggestions, feel free :)
> 

From Noah Frere <noahfrere@gmail.com>

Coolest thing i ever saw


On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 5:46 AM, Terry Farrell <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>wrote:

> Ummmmm, probably about 13 or 14 years ago. Looks like their lowest-end
> drill press runs about $95 now. I did get mine on sale - so it doesn't look
> like they've gone up in price all that much.
>
>
> http://www.sears.com/tools-bench-stationary-power-tools-drill-presses/s-1021248
>
> Now I'm not suggesting that it's not worth it to buy a
> larger/higher-quality drill press - more stable, more power, deeper throat,
> etc., etc. I do have a larger one now for the benchtop, but I still do use
> my little Sears fellow for drilling pinblocks and plates as I have it
> mounted upside-down on my overhead drill press.
>
>
>
>
> Tilts to any angle, rotates 360 degrees, vertical adjustment about 8
> inches, X-direction travel is about 8 feet and Y direction travel is about
> a foot. A goofy thing that I'd likely not ever build again if I moved to a
> new shop (would build a floating press, ala Ron N), but as long at it is
> here, it works very well and I really enjoy it.
>
> Except when I don't have the drill mounted on it and I walk into it - the
> base is about 5' 8" off the floor, and I'm 6' 0". Ouch!
>
> Terry Farrell
>
> On Mar 6, 2013, at 11:15 PM, Noah Frere wrote:
>
> enlightening. I had already planned on upgrading the chuck, but never
> imagined a drill press could be bought for so cheap. Of course that was
> like many many years ago...
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 8:57 PM, Terry Farrell <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>wrote:
>
>> "I actually don't have a drill press yet. If anyone has any mid-priced
>> suggestions..."
>>
>> I've been using a $79 Sears special for many years. I upgraded it with a
>> high-quality (low run-out) chuck. It has served me very well. A larger,
>> heavier drill press would always be welcome - but you can get by with a
>> small one if you wish. Just be sure to put a good chuck on it - I think
>> mine is a Jacobs and cost around $100.
>>
>> Terry Farrell
>>
>>
>> On Mar 6, 2013, at 4:38 PM, Noah Frere wrote:
>>
>> Will, thanks for the "feed"back.
>>
>> the old pins were only .265", smaller than 1/0. I prefer to keep it in
>> that range. You said "You may find that if you drill for 2/0 pins and
>> use a 1/0 pin, your block may well be too loose." I would not drill for
>> 2/0 pins. I will do as you suggest, and order all 3.
>>
>> I actually don't have a drill press yet. If anyone has any mid-priced
>> suggestions, feel free :)
>>
>>
>
>

From Terry Farrell <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>

Thanks!  I'm not sure it is the coolest thing around, but it certainly is the something-est thing around!

Terry Farrell

On Mar 7, 2013, at 8:55 AM, Noah Frere wrote:

> Coolest thing i ever saw
> 
> 
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 5:46 AM, Terry Farrell <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> Ummmmm, probably about 13 or 14 years ago. Looks like their lowest-end drill press runs about $95 now. I did get mine on sale - so it doesn't look like they've gone up in price all that much.
> 
> http://www.sears.com/tools-bench-stationary-power-tools-drill-presses/s-1021248
> 
> Now I'm not suggesting that it's not worth it to buy a larger/higher-quality drill press - more stable, more power, deeper throat, etc., etc. I do have a larger one now for the benchtop, but I still do use my little Sears fellow for drilling pinblocks and plates as I have it mounted upside-down on my overhead drill press.
> 
> <May06_02.jpg>
> 
> <May06_01.jpg>
> 
> <May05_06.jpg>
> 
> Tilts to any angle, rotates 360 degrees, vertical adjustment about 8 inches, X-direction travel is about 8 feet and Y direction travel is about a foot. A goofy thing that I'd likely not ever build again if I moved to a new shop (would build a floating press, ala Ron N), but as long at it is here, it works very well and I really enjoy it.
> 
> Except when I don't have the drill mounted on it and I walk into it - the base is about 5' 8" off the floor, and I'm 6' 0". Ouch!
> 
> Terry Farrell
> 
> On Mar 6, 2013, at 11:15 PM, Noah Frere wrote:
> 
>> enlightening. I had already planned on upgrading the chuck, but never imagined a drill press could be bought for so cheap. Of course that was like many many years ago...
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 8:57 PM, Terry Farrell <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>> "I actually don't have a drill press yet. If anyone has any mid-priced suggestions..."
>> 
>> I've been using a $79 Sears special for many years. I upgraded it with a high-quality (low run-out) chuck. It has served me very well. A larger, heavier drill press would always be welcome - but you can get by with a small one if you wish. Just be sure to put a good chuck on it - I think mine is a Jacobs and cost around $100.
>> 
>> Terry Farrell
>> 
>> 
>> On Mar 6, 2013, at 4:38 PM, Noah Frere wrote:
>> 
>>> Will, thanks for the "feed"back.
>>> 
>>> the old pins were only .265", smaller than 1/0. I prefer to keep it in that range. You said "You may find that if you drill for 2/0 pins and use a 1/0 pin, your block may well be too loose." I would not drill for 2/0 pins. I will do as you suggest, and order all 3.
>>> 
>>> I actually don't have a drill press yet. If anyone has any mid-priced suggestions, feel free :)
>> 
> 
> 

From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>

On 3/7/2013 2:23 PM, Terry Farrell wrote:
> Thanks!  I'm not sure it is the coolest thing around, but it certainly
> is the something-est thing around!

I like my hovercraft for drilling blocks, but I'd sure like your gantry 
drill <G> for vertical hitch pin installation. That, or an articulated 
arm thing on the wall that does both - if I had a wall I could still 
see. It's always something...
Ron N

From Terry Farrell <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>

You've seen Ron Overs' articulated arm thing - haven't you? My memory is getting a bit foggy now, but I'm quite sure he had/has one and likely uses a drill press and perhaps other power machinery on it. I saw it idle, but not in action.

Terry Farrell

On Mar 7, 2013, at 3:38 PM, Ron Nossaman wrote:

> On 3/7/2013 2:23 PM, Terry Farrell wrote:
>> Thanks!  I'm not sure it is the coolest thing around, but it certainly
>> is the something-est thing around!
> 
> I like my hovercraft for drilling blocks, but I'd sure like your gantry drill <G> for vertical hitch pin installation. That, or an articulated arm thing on the wall that does both - if I had a wall I could still see. It's always something...
> Ron N

From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>

On 3/7/2013 7:05 PM, Terry Farrell wrote:
> You've seen Ron Overs' articulated arm thing - haven't you? My memory
> is getting a bit foggy now, but I'm quite sure he had/has one and
> likely uses a drill press and perhaps other power machinery on it. I
> saw it idle, but not in action.

Oh yea! I'd forgotten about that. Sorry Ron.
Ron N

From "Encore Pianos" <encorepianos@metrocast.net>

There is some peril here by going too cheap.  Terry's good experience years
ago notwithstanding, the bottom has gotten lower.  The worst tools these
days are made at the Dongbei Dogpoo Tool Factory, and they never bothered to
hire a QC inspector - don't need 'em!

Home Crappo and (Way too) Low are very fond of these tools.  If you are
lucky, they will last a millisecond past the warranty date before the
cheap-ass motor burns out, or other defects don't cause bodily injury
beforehand.  And some of these shitty tools have name brands on them too.
Better to find a good quality used drill press cheap and it doesn't have to
be a Powermatic.  Terry's suggestion of a good chuck is on target.  

 

The .250, .257, and .261 are probably a good choice for your pin size. 

 

Will

 

 

 

 

 

From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
Of Noah Frere
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 11:15 PM
To: pianotech@ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Size of Pinblock Drill bit?

 

enlightening. I had already planned on upgrading the chuck, but never
imagined a drill press could be bought for so cheap. Of course that was like
many many years ago...

 

On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 8:57 PM, Terry Farrell <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>
wrote:

"I actually don't have a drill press yet. If anyone has any mid-priced
suggestions..."

 

I've been using a $79 Sears special for many years. I upgraded it with a
high-quality (low run-out) chuck. It has served me very well. A larger,
heavier drill press would always be welcome - but you can get by with a
small one if you wish. Just be sure to put a good chuck on it - I think mine
is a Jacobs and cost around $100.

 

Terry Farrell

 

 

On Mar 6, 2013, at 4:38 PM, Noah Frere wrote:





Will, thanks for the "feed"back.

the old pins were only .265", smaller than 1/0. I prefer to keep it in that
range. You said "You may find that if you drill for 2/0 pins and use a 1/0
pin, your block may well be too loose." I would not drill for 2/0 pins. I
will do as you suggest, and order all 3.

I actually don't have a drill press yet. If anyone has any mid-priced
suggestions, feel free :)

 

From Jim Ialeggio <jim@grandpianosolutions.com>

Interesting bit (haha) make that idea I got from Bruce Clark and Jason 
Andino at the Haverhill WNG training class:

First pass 1/4" drill of the type you prefer, I'm using a fast spiral so 
I don't have to take 2 or 3 plunges to clear the bit. Then for the 
second pass, by hand, fast spiral "nubbed" bit.  Doesn't grab and pull 
through, and doesn't beat up the start of the hole.

Jim Ialeggio

-- 
Jim Ialeggio	
jim@grandpianosolutions.com
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>

On 3/6/2013 4:46 PM, Jim Ialeggio wrote:
> Interesting bit (haha) make that idea I got from Bruce Clark and Jason
> Andino at the Haverhill WNG training class:
>
> First pass 1/4" drill of the type you prefer, I'm using a fast spiral so
> I don't have to take 2 or 3 plunges to clear the bit. Then for the
> second pass, by hand, fast spiral "nubbed" bit.  Doesn't grab and pull
> through, and doesn't beat up the start of the hole.

I see no benefit to high helix on the second pass, though the nubbed bit 
is standard for drilling bridges out from #6 to #7 pins when using the 
original cap. If you mean grinding near vertical bevels on the cutting 
edges of the bits, that is. Another old machinists trick, like double 
drilling itself, for cast iron, that works very well in wood too.

Ron N

From Mike Spalding <mike.spalding1@frontier.com>

Nubbed?  By hand?  more detail please!

thanks

Mike Spalding

On 3/6/2013 4:46 PM, Jim Ialeggio wrote:
> Interesting bit (haha) make that idea I got from Bruce Clark and Jason
> Andino at the Haverhill WNG training class:
>
> First pass 1/4" drill of the type you prefer, I'm using a fast spiral
> so I don't have to take 2 or 3 plunges to clear the bit. Then for the
> second pass, by hand, fast spiral "nubbed" bit. Doesn't grab and pull
> through, and doesn't beat up the start of the hole.
>
> Jim Ialeggio
>

From Euphonious Thumpe <lclgcnp@yahoo.com>

Sure, with the added distance to the coils due to the plate thickness, that would mean more flagpoling (less  of the pin supported by surrounding structure). Those extremely well-built, open face block 1890's Knabes used 1/0 pins, by the way. 

Thumpe

From Noah Frere <noahfrere@gmail.com>

Thumpe said:
"Sure, with the added distance to the coils due to the plate thickness,
that would mean more flagpoling (less of the pin supported by surrounding
structure)."

Ah! that's it


On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 8:10 PM, Euphonious Thumpe <lclgcnp@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Sure, with the added distance to the coils due to the plate thickness,
> that would mean more flagpoling (less of the pin supported by surrounding
> structure). Those extremely well-built, open face block 1890's Knabes used
> 1/0 pins, by the way.
>
> Thumpe
>
>  ------------------------------
> * From: * Noah Frere <noahfrere@gmail.com>;
> * To: * <pianotech@ptg.org>;
> * Subject: * Re: [pianotech] Size of Pinblock Drill bit?
> * Sent: * Wed, Mar 6, 2013 9:45:33 PM
>
>   Alan, no I don't understand why that would be, unless the thinner
> diameter flagpoles more easily due to less strength, but I don't see why
> plate-proximity would effect that. However, it is an open-faced block, or
> 3/4 plate. (Actually, it's more like 7/8 plate).
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 4:32 PM, Alan Eder <reggaepass@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Well, if the tuning pin holes in your plate holes have bushings (like on
>> Yamahas), or it is an open window plate (i. e., no cast iron web over the
>> pinblock around the tuning pins, like on many Bosendorfers), 1/0 may work.
>> But if it is, say, Steinway style (covered block, no bushings), then you
>> may find that 1/0 tuning pins flagpole excessively, what with the coil that
>> high off the first point of support for the tuning pin.
>>
>>  Make sense?
>>
>>  Alan Eder
>>
>> 

                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                Original Message-----
>> From: Noah Frere <noahfrere@gmail.com>
>> To: pianotech <pianotech@ptg.org>
>> Sent: Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:21 pm
>> Subject: Re: [pianotech] Size of Pinblock Drill bit?
>>
>>  Good point both of you on the brad point. Why 1/0?  From what i
>> understand, it has a nicer feel because of the decreased surface area
>> contact with the wood. Plus it leaves more room for coils and string
>> clearance. Plus they're less expensive i think (though that is an
>> after-thought). Plus i like fine things. Thinner is finer :)  Any reason
>> why not?
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 3:56 PM, Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>>  On 3/6/2013 1:57 PM, Noah Frere wrote:
>>>
>>>> I searched my not inconsiderable archives for an answer, but have come
>>>> up empty-handed. I am using 1/0 Denro blued tuning pins in a new
>>>> multi-lam Maple pinblock, and need to order the drill bit. I'd like to
>>>> double-drill - makes sense. The Pianotek catalog recommends, in effect,
>>>> a drill bit .016" to .021" under the diameter of a 2/0 pin in a
>>>> multi-lam pinblock. Following that logic, I could use the .250" on the
>>>> first pass, and the .261" (.015" under) or .257" (.019" under) drill bit
>>>> on the second pass. Also, I like the idea of the brad-points, but also
>>>> like the idea of the other ones, which are "slow spiral."  Any
>>>> recommendations?
>>>>
>>>
>>>  You can't use brad points on the second pass anyway, so decide if they
>>> will get you anything desirable on the first and buy accordingly. Slow
>>> spiral, definitely, particularly on the second pass. The 0.250" should be
>>> fine for the first pass. As to final size, as Greg said, test - etc.
>>>
>>> Why 1/0?
>>>
>>> Ron N
>>>
>>
>>
>

From Jim Ialeggio <jim@grandpianosolutions.com>

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Spaulding wrote:

<Nubbed? By hand? more detail please!

Ouch!!  I read back over my post and realized I misstated what I meant 
to say.

Here it is corrected with a pic of the SLOW SPIRAL, nubbed bit:

1st pass 1/4" fast spiral, or whatever you bit you want to use...not too 
picky
2nd pass - SLOW SPIRAL nubbed run through with a hand drill. Sized as 
per final target torque and block type, by test.

The nubbed bit simply has the cutting edge  ground off (eyeballed on the 
grinder) to about a 90 deg angle at the OD of the bit's leading edge. 
See pic.

Just to confirm, I wrote fast spiral nubbed in my original post...I 
meant to say that the 2nd pass is SLOW SPIRAL nubbed!!!

I'm actually thinking of having WL Fuller regrind these so that the 1st 
1" is a 1/4" non-cutting pilot step drill... but haven't had that done 
that yet.

Jim Ialeggio

-- 
Jim Ialeggio	
jim@grandpianosolutions.com
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

From Noah Frere <noahfrere@gmail.com>

Thanks for the clarification. Does anybody else here do the second pass by
hand?


On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 8:31 AM, Jim Ialeggio <jim@grandpianosolutions.com>wrote:

>  ------------------------------
> Mike Spaulding wrote:
>
> <Nubbed? By hand? more detail please!
>
> Ouch!!  I read back over my post and realized I misstated what I meant to
> say.
>
> Here it is corrected with a pic of the SLOW SPIRAL, nubbed bit:
>
> 1st pass 1/4" fast spiral, or whatever you bit you want to use...not too
> picky
> 2nd pass - SLOW SPIRAL nubbed run through with a hand drill. Sized as per
> final target torque and block type, by test.
>
> The nubbed bit simply has the cutting edge  ground off (eyeballed on the
> grinder) to about a 90 deg angle at the OD of the bit's leading edge. See
> pic.
>
> Just to confirm, I wrote fast spiral nubbed in my original post...I meant
> to say that the 2nd pass is SLOW SPIRAL nubbed!!!
>
> I'm actually thinking of having WL Fuller regrind these so that the 1st 1"
> is a 1/4" non-cutting pilot step drill... but haven't had that done that
> yet.
>
> Jim Ialeggio
>
> --
> Jim Ialeggio	jim@grandpianosolutions.com978 425-9026
> Shirley Center, MA
>
>
>

From Al Guecia/Allied PianoCraft <alliedpianocraft@hotmail.com>

I do and I think that most of us here who want to do the best job do.

Al -
High Point, NC


On Mar 7, 2013, at 8:59 AM, Noah Frere <noahfrere@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks for the clarification. Does anybody else here do the second pass by hand?


On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 8:31 AM, Jim Ialeggio <jim@grandpianosolutions.com> wrote:
Mike Spaulding wrote:

<Nubbed? By hand? more detail please!

Ouch!!  I read back over my post and realized I misstated what I meant to say.

Here it is corrected with a pic of the SLOW SPIRAL, nubbed bit:

1st pass 1/4" fast spiral, or whatever you bit you want to use...not too picky
2nd pass - SLOW SPIRAL nubbed run through with a hand drill. Sized as per final target torque and block type, by test. 

The nubbed bit simply has the cutting edge  ground off (eyeballed on the grinder) to about a 90 deg angle at the OD of the bit's leading edge. See pic.

Just to confirm, I wrote fast spiral nubbed in my original post...I meant to say that the 2nd pass is SLOW SPIRAL nubbed!!!

I'm actually thinking of having WL Fuller regrind these so that the 1st 1" is a 1/4" non-cutting pilot step drill... but haven't had that done that yet.

Jim Ialeggio 
-- 
Jim Ialeggio	
jim@grandpianosolutions.com
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>

On 3/7/2013 2:40 PM, Al Guecia/Allied PianoCraft wrote:
> I do and I think that most of us here who want to do the best job do.

I do both passes with my drill setup, and my results are just fine thank 
you.
Ron N

From Al Guecia/Allied PianoCraft <alliedpianocraft@hotmail.com>

On Mar 7, 2013, at 4:10 PM, Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net> wrote:

On 3/7/2013 2:40 PM, Al Guecia/Allied PianoCraft wrote:
> I do and I think that most of us here who want to do the best job do.

I do both passes with my drill setup, and my results are just fine thank you.
Ron N

Ron, I guess I didn't read the question carefully. My answer was about doing two passes.


Al -
High Point, NC

From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>

On 3/7/2013 3:22 PM, Al Guecia/Allied PianoCraft wrote:
>
> On Mar 7, 2013, at 4:10 PM, Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net
> <mailto:rnossaman@cox.net>> wrote:
>
> On 3/7/2013 2:40 PM, Al Guecia/Allied PianoCraft wrote:
>> I do and I think that most of us here who want to do the best job do.
>
> I do both passes with my drill setup, and my results are just fine thank
> you.
> Ron N
>
> Ron, I guess I didn't read the question carefully. My answer was about
> doing two passes.

Yes, I said I do BOTH passes, that's TWO, with my drill setup, and do 
NOT do the second pass by hand. And I'll put the uniformity of my 
pinblock drilling against yours any time. You people are making a 
mindlessly simple and easy process way too complicated and difficult.
Ron N

From Terry Farrell <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>

I'm curious, why the second pass by hand? Seems to me that a bit in a stable drill press will always give more consistent results. What do you folks see as the advantage to doing a second pass by hand?

Terry Farrell

On Mar 7, 2013, at 3:40 PM, Al Guecia/Allied PianoCraft wrote:

> I do and I think that most of us here who want to do the best job do.
> 
> Al -
> High Point, NC
> 
> 
> On Mar 7, 2013, at 8:59 AM, Noah Frere <noahfrere@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the clarification. Does anybody else here do the second pass by hand?
> 
> 
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 8:31 AM, Jim Ialeggio <jim@grandpianosolutions.com> wrote:
> Mike Spaulding wrote:
> 
> <Nubbed? By hand? more detail please!
> 
> Ouch!!  I read back over my post and realized I misstated what I meant to say.
> 
> Here it is corrected with a pic of the SLOW SPIRAL, nubbed bit:
> 
> 1st pass 1/4" fast spiral, or whatever you bit you want to use...not too picky
> 2nd pass - SLOW SPIRAL nubbed run through with a hand drill. Sized as per final target torque and block type, by test. 
> 
> The nubbed bit simply has the cutting edge  ground off (eyeballed on the grinder) to about a 90 deg angle at the OD of the bit's leading edge. See pic.
> 
> Just to confirm, I wrote fast spiral nubbed in my original post...I meant to say that the 2nd pass is SLOW SPIRAL nubbed!!!
> 
> I'm actually thinking of having WL Fuller regrind these so that the 1st 1" is a 1/4" non-cutting pilot step drill... but haven't had that done that yet.
> 
> Jim Ialeggio 
> -- 
> Jim Ialeggio	
> jim@grandpianosolutions.com
> 978 425-9026
> Shirley Center, MA
> 
> 
> 

From Al Guecia/Allied PianoCraft <alliedpianocraft@hotmail.com>

On Mar 7, 2013, at 8:07 PM, Terry Farrell <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

I'm curious, why the second pass by hand? Seems to me that a bit in a stable drill press will always give more consistent results. What do you folks see as the advantage to doing a second pass by hand?


I guess I have a problem putting what I mean into words. I just meant TWO PASSES, not how the two passes were done. I'm just saying two passes are best. Do it the way you damned please. OK! did I make myself clear that time.


Al -
High Point, NC


On Mar 7, 2013, at 3:40 PM, Al Guecia/Allied PianoCraft wrote:

> I do and I think that most of us here who want to do the best job do.
> 
> Al -
> High Point, NC
> 
> 
> On Mar 7, 2013, at 8:59 AM, Noah Frere <noahfrere@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the clarification. Does anybody else here do the second pass by hand?
> 
> 
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 8:31 AM, Jim Ialeggio <jim@grandpianosolutions.com> wrote:
> Mike Spaulding wrote:
> 
> <Nubbed? By hand? more detail please!
> 
> Ouch!!  I read back over my post and realized I misstated what I meant to say.
> 
> Here it is corrected with a pic of the SLOW SPIRAL, nubbed bit:
> 
> 1st pass 1/4" fast spiral, or whatever you bit you want to use...not too picky
> 2nd pass - SLOW SPIRAL nubbed run through with a hand drill. Sized as per final target torque and block type, by test. 
> 
> The nubbed bit simply has the cutting edge  ground off (eyeballed on the grinder) to about a 90 deg angle at the OD of the bit's leading edge. See pic.
> 
> Just to confirm, I wrote fast spiral nubbed in my original post...I meant to say that the 2nd pass is SLOW SPIRAL nubbed!!!
> 
> I'm actually thinking of having WL Fuller regrind these so that the 1st 1" is a 1/4" non-cutting pilot step drill... but haven't had that done that yet.
> 
> Jim Ialeggio 
> -- 
> Jim Ialeggio	
> jim@grandpianosolutions.com
> 978 425-9026
> Shirley Center, MA
> 
> 
> 

From Terry Farrell <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>

OUCH! Do you chase the postman and bite his ankles also? I will indeed do it the way I damned please - you certainly stated that clear enough.

But no, you are not clear at all regarding the advantages of a second pass by hand, which is what I was asking about - I don't see that you even addressed it. I try to have an open mind and maybe learn something. I was asking those who do a second pass by hand what they find advantageous about that method. I like thinking about new things and learning new things. Does that like come off as threatening or sarcastic or something?

Terry Farrell

On Mar 8, 2013, at 7:47 AM, Al Guecia/Allied PianoCraft wrote:

> On Mar 7, 2013, at 8:07 PM, Terry Farrell <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> 
> I'm curious, why the second pass by hand? Seems to me that a bit in a stable drill press will always give more consistent results. What do you folks see as the advantage to doing a second pass by hand?
> 
> 
> I guess I have a problem putting what I mean into words. I just meant TWO PASSES, not how the two passes were done. I'm just saying two passes are best. Do it the way you damned please. OK! did I make myself clear that time.
> 
> 
> Al -
> High Point, NC
> 
> 
> On Mar 7, 2013, at 3:40 PM, Al Guecia/Allied PianoCraft wrote:
> 
>> I do and I think that most of us here who want to do the best job do.
>> 
>> Al -
>> High Point, NC
>> 
>> 
>> On Mar 7, 2013, at 8:59 AM, Noah Frere <noahfrere@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks for the clarification. Does anybody else here do the second pass by hand?
>> 

From Al Guecia/Allied PianoCraft <alliedpianocraft@hotmail.com>

On Mar 8, 2013, at 8:29 AM, Terry Farrell <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

OUCH! Do you chase the postman and bite his ankles also? I will indeed do it the way I damned please - you certainly stated that clear enough.

Sorry Terry, didn't mean to get on your case, but Ron started me going. I was just referring to two passes, not the method or type of drill bit.

But no, you are not clear at all regarding the advantages of a second pass by hand, which is what I was asking about - I don't see that you even addressed it. I try to have an open mind and maybe learn something. I was asking those who do a second pass by hand what they find advantageous about that method. I like thinking about new things and learning new things. Does that like come off as threatening or sarcastic or something?

I have done it both way. At the present time I am doing the second pass by hand and here is why. There is usually a bit of time between drilling the pinblock and when I'm ready to restring the piano. I like to restring immediately after the pianoblock has been drilled. That's why I drill the second pass by hand, in the piano, right before I'm ready to string.
Disclaimer: I'm not saying it's the best method, I not saying it's the way it should be done, I'm just saying, it's the way I do it and why.

Al -
High Point, NC


On Mar 8, 2013, at 7:47 AM, Al Guecia/Allied PianoCraft wrote:

> On Mar 7, 2013, at 8:07 PM, Terry Farrell <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> 
> I'm curious, why the second pass by hand? Seems to me that a bit in a stable drill press will always give more consistent results. What do you folks see as the advantage to doing a second pass by hand?
> 
> 
> I guess I have a problem putting what I mean into words. I just meant TWO PASSES, not how the two passes were done. I'm just saying two passes are best. Do it the way you damned please. OK! did I make myself clear that time.
> 
> 
> Al -
> High Point, NC
> 
> 
> On Mar 7, 2013, at 3:40 PM, Al Guecia/Allied PianoCraft wrote:
> 
>> I do and I think that most of us here who want to do the best job do.
>> 
>> Al -
>> High Point, NC
>> 
>> 
>> On Mar 7, 2013, at 8:59 AM, Noah Frere <noahfrere@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks for the clarification. Does anybody else here do the second pass by hand?
>> 

From Mike Spalding <mike.spalding1@frontier.com>

Thanks, Jim.  Totally clear now!

Mike Spalding

On 3/7/2013 7:31 AM, Jim Ialeggio wrote:
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Mike Spaulding wrote:
>
> <Nubbed? By hand? more detail please!
>
> Ouch!!  I read back over my post and realized I misstated what I meant 
> to say.
>
> Here it is corrected with a pic of the SLOW SPIRAL, nubbed bit:
>
> 1st pass 1/4" fast spiral, or whatever you bit you want to use...not 
> too picky
> 2nd pass - SLOW SPIRAL nubbed run through with a hand drill. Sized as 
> per final target torque and block type, by test.
>
> The nubbed bit simply has the cutting edge  ground off (eyeballed on 
> the grinder) to about a 90 deg angle at the OD of the bit's leading 
> edge. See pic.
>
> Just to confirm, I wrote fast spiral nubbed in my original post...I 
> meant to say that the 2nd pass is SLOW SPIRAL nubbed!!!
>
> I'm actually thinking of having WL Fuller regrind these so that the 
> 1st 1" is a 1/4" non-cutting pilot step drill... but haven't had that 
> done that yet.
>
> Jim Ialeggio
> -- 
> Jim Ialeggio	
> jim@grandpianosolutions.com
> 978 425-9026
> Shirley Center, MA
>

From Ed Foote <a440a@aol.com>

I have made my own pinblock reamers from bits in which I grind away all the cutting edges for the first inch or so of the bit.  It makes for an accurate pilot without chewing a sideways hole on the way in.  Takes about 60 seconds with a Dremel tool.  
Regards, 


Ed Foote RPT
http://www.piano-tuners.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html





                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                Original Message-----
From: Jim Ialeggio  
    
    I'm actually thinking of having WL Fuller regrind these so that the    1st 1" is a 1/4" non-cutting pilot step drill... but haven't had    that done that yet.
    
    Jim Ialeggio 
    
 

From Jim Ialeggio <jim@grandpianosolutions.com>

Ed Foot wrote:

From paul bruesch <paul@bruesch.net>

A proper "reamer" has straight vertical cutting (not scraping) flutes. What
is commonly referred to here as "reaming" is correctly known as "chasing",
where one runs a drill *bit* (a *drill* is a tool that turns a bit)
slightly larger than the initial hole to "chase it" out.

Paul Bruesch
Stillwater, MN


On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 2:16 PM, Jim Ialeggio <jim@grandpianosolutions.com>wrote:

> Ed Foot wrote:
>
>  the cutting edges for the first inch or so of the bit. It makes for an
> accurate pilot without chewing a
> sideways hole on the way in.
>
> This is interesting and makes a lot of sense.
>
> So, what exactly is the cutting action of a reamer?  Is is simply a
> scraping action?  If so, what keeps the 1st hole's wall fibres from just
> bending over rather than actually being sheared off ?
>
> Jim Ialeggio
>
> --
> Jim Ialeggio
> jim@grandpianosolutions.com
> 978 425-9026
> Shirley Center, MA
>
>

From Ed Foote <a440a@aol.com>

Hmm, Ok, I have been using homemade chasers instead of reamers, who knew?  
   
   The  K bit that I use to chase a Steinway 2/0 block prior to repinning with 3/0 pins manages to cut something out of those holes with the cutting edges I left in the middle of the bit.  Especially down at the bottom, where there is often uncompacted pin block holes drilled for the 2/0 pins. 
     I don't know what is being sheared off the inside of the holes, but there is wood removed when I do this, even though the bit is supposedly smaller than the hole should be.  
Regards, 


Ed Foote RPT
http://www.piano-tuners.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html





                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                Original Message-----
From: Jim Ialeggio 

From Douglas Gregg <classicpianodoc@gmail.com>

Mike,
I have been off this site and gone over to Google so this might be a
little late. Instead of a nubbed bit as you describe (and I am still
not sure what it is) I suggest chucking your bit in a hand drill and
with the drill running, run it at a slight angle from parallel against
the side of a grinding wheel that is running. The result is tapering
the tip and perhaps an inch of the drill  bit to a smaller size. That
can be used two ways. It allows the bit to enter a smaller hole
without chatter and guides the bit in just like the taper on a tap for
threading.  In the more extreme, the bit can be ground to nearly a
point that replicates the profile of a wood screw and makes a perfect
pilot hole for a wood screw without using one of those wobbly flat
bits to drill wood screw holes at a taper. Try it, you will love it.

Douglas Gregg
Classic Piano Doc
Southold, NY

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 08:22:21 -0600
From: Mike Spalding <mike.spalding1@frontier.com>
To: pianotech@ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Size of Pinblock Drill bit?
Message-ID: <5138A29D.8030708@frontier.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"

Thanks, Jim.  Totally clear now!

Mike Spalding

On 3/7/2013 7:31 AM, Jim Ialeggio wrote:
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Mike Spaulding wrote:
>
> <Nubbed? By hand? more detail please!
>
> Ouch!!  I read back over my post and realized I misstated what I meant
> to say.
>
> Here it is corrected with a pic of the SLOW SPIRAL, nubbed bit:
>
> 1st pass 1/4" fast spiral, or whatever you bit you want to use...not
> too picky
> 2nd pass - SLOW SPIRAL nubbed run through with a hand drill. Sized as
> per final target torque and block type, by test.
>
> The nubbed bit simply has the cutting edge  ground off (eyeballed on
> the grinder) to about a 90 deg angle at the OD of the bit's leading
> edge. See pic.
>
> Just to confirm, I wrote fast spiral nubbed in my original post...I
> meant to say that the 2nd pass is SLOW SPIRAL nubbed!!!
>
> I'm actually thinking of having WL Fuller regrind these so that the
> 1st 1" is a 1/4" non-cutting pilot step drill... but haven't had that
> done that yet.
>
> Jim Ialeggio
> --
> Jim Ialeggio
> jim@grandpianosolutions.com
> 978 425-9026
> Shirley Center, MA
>

From Jim Ialeggio <jim@grandpianosolutions.com>

Terry wrote:

From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>

On 3/7/2013 7:49 PM, Jim Ialeggio wrote:
> Terry wrote:
> 

From Terry Farrell <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>

Okay, fair enough. FWIW, I don't move the piano with my overhead drill press - the drill press is on two tracks - both X and Y axis - and it moves quite easily, so that the drill bit can find and align with the existing hole very easy.

Terry Farrell

On Mar 7, 2013, at 8:49 PM, Jim Ialeggio wrote:

> Terry wrote:
> 

From Euphonious Thumpe <lclgcnp@yahoo.com>

Which is why someone needs to make a 2-step drill! (Fatter at top than at bottom.) Then one's gizmo of choice could be left in-situ, for the whole operation.

Thumpe

From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>

On 3/7/2013 7:59 PM, Euphonious Thumpe wrote:
> Which is why someone needs to make a 2-step drill! (Fatter at top than
> at bottom.) Then one's gizmo of choice could be left in-situ, for the
> whole operation.

No. You're back to heat issues then. Part of the simple beauty of the 
double drilling is that the second pass doesn't heat the bit enough to 
affect the fit.
Ron N

From Euphonious Thumpe <lclgcnp@yahoo.com>

So, where did you get the tracks, please? (And would you use them again, or some others???)

Thumpe

From Terry Farrell <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>

I think this is about the best picture I have of the track system. The rails are nothing but 1.5" X 1.5" X 1/8" steel angle. The wheels are replacement wheels for a sliding glass door from a home improvement store. Very simple and works very well. Both the X and Y direction tracks are designed this way.



While I really love my jig and it works very well, I don't know that it has any advantages over the Nossaman hover drill press jig for drilling pin blocks. If I were to do it again and wasn't drilling plates at all, I'd build the Nossaman hover drill press jig - works at least as well, is much easier to build, less expensive and easier to store. If you are drilling plates for vertical hitch pins, I guess my rig does have some advantage for that.

Terry Farrell

On Mar 7, 2013, at 9:39 PM, Euphonious Thumpe wrote:

> So, where did you get the tracks, please? (And would you use them again, or some others???)
> 
> Thumpe
> 
> From: Terry Farrell <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>; 
> To: <pianotech@ptg.org>; 
> Subject: Re: [pianotech] Size of Pinblock Drill bit? 
> Sent: Fri, Mar 8, 2013 2:17:38 AM 
> 
> Okay, fair enough. FWIW, I don't move the piano with my overhead drill press - the drill press is on two tracks - both X and Y axis - and it moves quite easily, so that the drill bit can find and align with the existing hole very easy.
> 
> Terry Farrell
> 
> On Mar 7, 2013, at 8:49 PM, Jim Ialeggio wrote:
> 
> > Terry wrote:
> >