Voicing

Voicing

  • 1.  Making voicing last longer

    Posted 06-11-2011 09:49
    List,
    I searched the archives to the best of my ability, but I couldn't find any discussion of this idea:  What are some tips to make voicing last longer?

    What prompted this question was a job I did for a serious amateur player who practices 3+ hours a day on a 25-yr.-old Steinway O.  I installed Abel Naturals and Tokiwa shanks/flanges, spent some time to get the hammers sounding great, did not notice any problems at the semi-annual tuning, but at the one-year mark they needed a lot of work.  Mostly softening in the top two octaves and hardening in the rest.

    The customer and I were both hoping that the initial effort would have lasted longer.  I will say this--his house is generally warm and humid, even for our climate.  The piano has a DC system, but for example the hammer flanges had seized quite a bit and needed attention after one year also.

    Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

    Dan


    -------------------------------------------
    Dan Rembold
    Staff Piano Technician, Auburn University
    Opelika AL
    334-524-1898
    -------------------------------------------


  • 2.  RE:Making voicing last longer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-11-2011 10:51

    Dan,
    You might consider re-pinning the hammer flanges if the home is as warm as you say it is. Can't imagine what that might feel like in AL, and I'm in FL.

    Consider re-pinning the flanges, and that should help the voicing also.
    -------------------------------------------
    -phil
    phil@philbondi.com
    -------------------------------------------






    Original Message


  • 3.  RE:Making voicing last longer

    Posted 06-19-2011 17:25
    The most durable voicing is achieved by deep needling the hammer shouders, leaving the area between 10.30 and 1.30 untouched, except for minor shallow insertions at the crown, . The deep needling should extend from 9.00 in the front to 3.00 at the back. Traditional needling is very slow, as the needles cannot penetrate much in todays' dense hammers; pounding them in may take as much as one hundred strokes on each shoulder, and there are a a lot of broken needles. Pressing them in is almost futile, and takes almost unlimited time. The answer is to needle through the sides, which is becoming increasingly the preferred method by many technicians I have the single needle tool from Renner made by Keith Bowman, and have used it with the original needle for twelve years, and finally retired the needle because the point was getting dull. The needle pattern I use is to start at either the 10.30  or 1.30 point , 2mm from the hammer surface and pass the needle right through the hammer, then repeat in a straight line aimed toward the tip of the molding. This is continued in a radial pattern. This type of needling is very effective and often requires only a few insertions to get the desired result. if the hammers are very hard I use  a Dremel tool with a fine  (#6) needle. It should protrude 15mm, so that the taper of the point completely clears the hammer when insrted all the way, thus ensuring the effect is even right through.  I use a Dremel 300.I also have a Mini-Mite cordless, but it is underpowered for this task and the battery rapidly discharges, but it is  fine for hammer filing). The speed must be reduced to half , to avoid scorching the felt, and the tool pushed in firmly without forcing and withdrawn quickly.it takes about two seconds. The needle will discoler from heat but does not scorch the felt. The discoloring of the needle shows that the temper is being drawn, so  it is wise to change the needle frequently.  The new plier type tool from Pianotek and Bolduc looks very promising, but are understandably expensive and can only be justified if one does a good deal of voicing. With this approach the shoulders can be softened right down to the underfelt, without compromising the wear characteristics at the crown. I have had traditional proponents argue against side needling, but all I say is "Give it a fair trial, and I think you will be pleasantly surprised".

    Ted Sambell






















     
    this is repeated on the other shoulder. The next row of insertions is is at 10.oo or 2.00

    -------------------------------------------
    Edward Sambell
    London ON
    519-474-7597
    -------------------------------------------






    Original Message


  • 4.  RE:Making voicing last longer

    Posted 06-20-2011 11:14
    Ted-

    Great post. I have used both the Pianotek ( Jahn ) tool and the Bolduc and much prefer the Jahn. It is used extensively at Schimmel and is especially useful in gaining more fullness and rounder tone in the smaller treble hammers that normally receive less needling. Needling from the side with a single needle tool has always been difficult for me . This tool makes it much more controllable and predictable.

    YMMV

    David

    -------------------------------------------
    David Brown
    Dallas TX
    214-484-3906
    -------------------------------------------









  • 5.  RE: Making voicing last longer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-11-2011 13:26
    I'm surprised that you are having to harden the hammers in the midrange. Usually I would find that the hammers in that area frequently need to be voiced down, not up, after lots of play. On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 6:48 AM, Dan Rembold wrote: > > > List, > I searched the archives to the best of my ability, but I couldn't find any > discussion of this idea: What are some tips to make voicing last longer? > > What prompted this question was a job I did for a serious amateur player > who practices 3+ hours a day on a 25-yr.-old Steinway O. I installed Abel > Naturals and Tokiwa shanks/flanges, spent some time to get the hammers > sounding great, did not notice any problems at the semi-annual tuning, but > at the one-year mark they needed a lot of work. Mostly softening in the top > two octaves and hardening in the rest. > > The customer and I were both hoping that the initial effort would have > lasted longer. I will say this--his house is generally warm and humid, even > for our climate. The piano has a DC system, but for example the hammer > flanges had seized quite a bit and needed attention after one year also. > > Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. > > Dan > > > ------------------------------------------- > Dan Rembold > Staff Piano Technician, Auburn University > Opelika AL > 334-524-1898 > ------------------------------------------- > >


  • 6.  RE:Making voicing last longer

    Posted 06-13-2011 12:42
    If you consider that new piano warranty is based on 1 hour of play per day,
    1 year on this piano played 3 hours a day is consistent with about 3 years of play, the hammers are actually holding up quite well if they haven't had to be re-voiced for a whole year.  I would expect that they would need minor re-shaping after the 3rd year of life, and it would be normal to need to touch them up again at this point especially since they were put on new.  With any piano played this often, all service needs will need to be increased.  I would look at tone regulating other areas of the piano such as checking any loose case parts and seating the strings at all contact points re-setting with each tuning, which will reduce any noise that you are hearing. 

    -------------------------------------------
    Melanie Brooks
    Brooks, Ltd. Piano Products LLC
    Old Lyme CT
    860-434-5061
    -------------------------------------------






    Original Message


  • 7.  RE:Making voicing last longer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-13-2011 23:17
    Dan Rembold: "What are some tips to make voicing last longer?"

    I don't know about the impact of things like flange friction and humidity in the case you describe. But I have some tips about making voicing last. I guess one has to start by saying that voicing is no more permanent than tuning or regulation, and you simply have to accept that. But there are techniques that seem to last better.

    First, long needles, pressed into the shoulders. I think that somewhat longer needles than many of us use give a more lasting effect: 7 - 10 mm as opposed to 5 - 7 mm. Pressed rather than jabbed. I am convinced that this process (pressing) transforms the felt in a more elastic way: it spreads the fibers without tearing them as much. A lot of voicers and teachers I respect agree, including the Renner folks (Baldassin, Spreeman, etc.) and technical reps of most German/Austrian makers. My own experience suggests that a pressing technique allows me to be far more consistent and precise in where the needles go, and how the hammers feel and sound. With practice, the hands feel the density of the felt in the various areas of the hammer, and one knows how the hammer will sound.

    Another suggestion, especially for surface "sugaring" work, is to use narrower diameter needles. They come as small as #12, and I usually use #10 and #12 for crown work. This has a more subtle tonal effect, and does far less tearing of the fibers. Hence the effect seems to be more long lasting. I find that my una corda work holds on for even as long as a few years, fundamentally (ie, it needs touching up, but the contrast remains clear). And crown voicing with small needles is a good, quick way to bring back voicing - reduce the harsh attack sound that builds up with use

    All this said, after a year of fairly hard playing, or a couple months of really hard playing (practice rooms), the hammers seem to re-felt themselves. The shoulders often feel almost as dense as they did the first round of pre-voicing. Often it takes until the third or fourth thorough voicing procedure to get to a more stable point, where all you need is single needle in the crown area. That's life! Good job security. Voicing isn't something you do once, but it should be something you can build on over time, and maintain for several years with less maintenance as time passes.
    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    fssturm@unm.edu
    -------------------------------------------