Harpsichord

Ok folks, You have been of real help on this board, so I have some questions.

I just aquired (after many years of wanting to get a harpsichord) a Burton Instrument ca. 1985. The intrument structurally is pretty sound, - don't see any problems, except two pretty small cracks in the top of the soundbord - the instrument has some potential - I have it tuned and some of the notes that I have voiced show that it could be a resonant instrument.I got the instrument for cheap, knowing it would need a lot of work, it sat in a church for 15 years and was neglected.
 The instrument is one man, 8,8,4, leather buff.

There are about 30 plectra broken off, so I know I will need to replace and voice these, I know the particular difficulty in the Burtons, I have ordered new Hubbard toungues to replace the Burton toungues. So that's a given...I can do basic quilling and voicing.

But here'a another problem: I can't seem to get the instrument to sound consistent. The problem seems to be that when I move the register I want into playing position, it seems spongy and does not stay there, or it is in a slightly different place depending on how hard I jam the register on or off. This creates havoc with the voicing, since it never seems to be in excactly the same place. When I shove the register on, it will have a little 'bounce back' so it does not stay where it was when I adjusted it.

And, the short 8 register won't move, however it WILL move when I move it manually without using the brass stop guide, but the brass stop guide won't move the register by itself. The screw connecting it just moves back and forth, not moving the register.  The screw is stripped, where it goes into the register, but does that matter? 
Can I replace the screw with a larger diameter one? I don't want to strip the register further.

It is possible as well, that it  looks like moving one register also moves another, and they somewhat stick together.
The register guides are metal. I have fooled around with the capitstam at the ends of the registers, but I can't get it right. I can adjust it so that it is ok, then I move the register on and off and is does not return to the same place. ARGG.

However, combined with this, it does seem (only based on other instruments I have worked on,) is that MOST of the quilling seems just too short and stubby, and maybe this is also adding to the problem, that there is less tolerance to work with, with a too-short quill in general would decrease amount of tolerance avaliable in the voicing. Does this make sense? (I will post pics later of the quilling)

Any ideas on how to proceed? Thanks in any case!
-------------------------------------------
Gregory Hamilton
Music Director, Faculty
Holy Trinity Seminary
Irving Tx
832-545-0900
-------------------------------------------

Ann Acker or Ed Kottick can help a great deal with this.  We have a Benn rebuilt by someone other than them who lives out in KY.  the 8' stops will not stay in place no matter what I do, so the poor keyboardist has to keep moving the stop knob all the time.  It's also had constant damper problems. Needless to say, I wouldn't recommend the guy from KY.  Ann or Ed are excellent  Ed rebuilt 2 other of our harpsichords within the last couple years and work beautifully! i chose Ed as I can drive the instruments to Iowa city without the huge costs of professional movers. sorry, Ann!

Best of luck!
Paul




-------------------------------------------
Paul T. Williams RPT
Piano Technician
University of Nebraska
Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
pwilliams4@unl.edu
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-04-2013 14:59
From: Gregory Hamilton
Subject: Solving Burton Problems


Ok folks, You have been of real help on this board, so I have some questions.

I just aquired (after many years of wanting to get a harpsichord) a Burton Instrument ca. 1985. The intrument structurally is pretty sound, - don't see any problems, except two pretty small cracks in the top of the soundbord - the instrument has some potential - I have it tuned and some of the notes that I have voiced show that it could be a resonant instrument.I got the instrument for cheap, knowing it would need a lot of work, it sat in a church for 15 years and was neglected.
 The instrument is one man, 8,8,4, leather buff.

There are about 30 plectra broken off, so I know I will need to replace and voice these, I know the particular difficulty in the Burtons, I have ordered new Hubbard toungues to replace the Burton toungues. So that's a given...I can do basic quilling and voicing.

But here'a another problem: I can't seem to get the instrument to sound consistent. The problem seems to be that when I move the register I want into playing position, it seems spongy and does not stay there, or it is in a slightly different place depending on how hard I jam the register on or off. This creates havoc with the voicing, since it never seems to be in excactly the same place. When I shove the register on, it will have a little 'bounce back' so it does not stay where it was when I adjusted it.

And, the short 8 register won't move, however it WILL move when I move it manually without using the brass stop guide, but the brass stop guide won't move the register by itself. The screw connecting it just moves back and forth, not moving the register.  The screw is stripped, where it goes into the register, but does that matter? 
Can I replace the screw with a larger diameter one? I don't want to strip the register further.

It is possible as well, that it  looks like moving one register also moves another, and they somewhat stick together.
The register guides are metal. I have fooled around with the capitstam at the ends of the registers, but I can't get it right. I can adjust it so that it is ok, then I move the register on and off and is does not return to the same place. ARGG.

However, combined with this, it does seem (only based on other instruments I have worked on,) is that MOST of the quilling seems just too short and stubby, and maybe this is also adding to the problem, that there is less tolerance to work with, with a too-short quill in general would decrease amount of tolerance avaliable in the voicing. Does this make sense? (I will post pics later of the quilling)

Any ideas on how to proceed? Thanks in any case!
-------------------------------------------
Gregory Hamilton
Music Director, Faculty
Holy Trinity Seminary
Irving Tx
832-545-0900
-------------------------------------------

The problem of a shift register "springing back" rather than shifting and staying in shift position has a few elements. The spring/resistance is caused by dampers against strings. It could be a few different scenarios, one of which is that the off position drops the damper felt off the string, so that the edge of the damper is being pushed into the string when you shift the register. Multiply that by many or all the dampers, and you have a lot of resistance to shift.

The solution is to be sure your dampers are on the strings in both on and off positions, and that their bottoms (where they touch the strings) are smooth and straight. (There are some instruments designed differently, but Burton isn't one of them). This requires basic set up so that shift is minimized. Start with all plectra at the same length relative to their strings. Shift so that the plectra all "just brush" (ghost) their strings, as much as possible, fix the register in that position, and trim or adjust so they are all ghosting. Now adjust the on and off positions. Off can be within 1 mm of the ghosting position, and all the plectra will miss their strings. On is within 1 mm the other way. So the entire shift is less than 2 mm.

Now install damper felt or fool with what you have if it is in good enough shape (not curled, with a straight bottom). It should protrude just enough beyond the end of the plectrum that it will still be on the string in off position, but not touch the neighbor string in on position, a pretty refined position, but quite doable. The felt chosen should be relatively stiff, not too floppy. Quality key bushing felt is good, and I think the stuff from Schaff is probably stiffer and better for the purpose. (The stuff they sell for action center bushing is also good for this purpose).

Finally, the shift lever should have enough friction to hold it in place. TIghten the screw, or possibly add leather washers to add some friction.

I am not familiar with precisely how the registers and levers are set up on a Burton, but for the one that doesn't move, it sounds like use of a machine screw and nut might solve your problem.

That doesn't address all your questions, but should give a start.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-04-2013 14:59
From: Gregory Hamilton
Subject: Solving Burton Problems


Ok folks, You have been of real help on this board, so I have some questions.

I just aquired (after many years of wanting to get a harpsichord) a Burton Instrument ca. 1985. The intrument structurally is pretty sound, - don't see any problems, except two pretty small cracks in the top of the soundbord - the instrument has some potential - I have it tuned and some of the notes that I have voiced show that it could be a resonant instrument.I got the instrument for cheap, knowing it would need a lot of work, it sat in a church for 15 years and was neglected.
 The instrument is one man, 8,8,4, leather buff.

There are about 30 plectra broken off, so I know I will need to replace and voice these, I know the particular difficulty in the Burtons, I have ordered new Hubbard toungues to replace the Burton toungues. So that's a given...I can do basic quilling and voicing.

But here'a another problem: I can't seem to get the instrument to sound consistent. The problem seems to be that when I move the register I want into playing position, it seems spongy and does not stay there, or it is in a slightly different place depending on how hard I jam the register on or off. This creates havoc with the voicing, since it never seems to be in excactly the same place. When I shove the register on, it will have a little 'bounce back' so it does not stay where it was when I adjusted it.

And, the short 8 register won't move, however it WILL move when I move it manually without using the brass stop guide, but the brass stop guide won't move the register by itself. The screw connecting it just moves back and forth, not moving the register.  The screw is stripped, where it goes into the register, but does that matter? 
Can I replace the screw with a larger diameter one? I don't want to strip the register further.

It is possible as well, that it  looks like moving one register also moves another, and they somewhat stick together.
The register guides are metal. I have fooled around with the capitstam at the ends of the registers, but I can't get it right. I can adjust it so that it is ok, then I move the register on and off and is does not return to the same place. ARGG.

However, combined with this, it does seem (only based on other instruments I have worked on,) is that MOST of the quilling seems just too short and stubby, and maybe this is also adding to the problem, that there is less tolerance to work with, with a too-short quill in general would decrease amount of tolerance avaliable in the voicing. Does this make sense? (I will post pics later of the quilling)

Any ideas on how to proceed? Thanks in any case!
-------------------------------------------
Gregory Hamilton
Music Director, Faculty
Holy Trinity Seminary
Irving Tx
832-545-0900
-------------------------------------------

Fred, great post as always. Thanks. One way to quickly check if the dampers are the problem is to simply play all the keys quickly with flat hands and see if the jacks are now in their proper place. It sounds like there might also be some friction problems and maybe the gap is tightening up a bit. My memory of Burton slides is that they are very hard to remove from under the strings especially with a 4' bridge in the way so I'm not sure what to suggest there. I had one a few years ago where the slides were twisting badly enough that they didn't make solid, consistent contact at the ends. Hubbard made new slides for me which worked out just fine. ---d On Mar 5, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Fred Sturm wrote: > > The problem of a shift register "springing back" rather than shifting and > staying in shift position has a few elements. The spring/resistance is > caused by dampers against strings. It could be a few different scenarios, > one of which is that the off position drops the damper felt off the string, > so that the edge of the damper is being pushed into the string when you > shift the register. Multiply that by many or all the dampers, and you have a > lot of resistance to shift. > >

Dear Fred and other members:
Thanks!!
Your advice concerning the 'ghosting' makes perfect sense. I will do this, once I have changed all the quills and toungues, I have completed half a rank so far. The sound is much louder, thought very rough. I decided I would replace all the quilling and not worry about the action untill all the quills were in...but now I have most of the near rank done - The action right now is very spongy - ir feels like there is a LONG time after I play the key and the quill responds - and then it is really loud and rough -  I am nor sure where to start correcting this, unless it is really that I should atart at the beginning, using the ghosting technique. I have not shaped any of the plectra yet...

The back 8 that does not move- I am fairly certian that this is because the wood,is swelled.

I will try and post some pics soon.

I realize that I have bitten off more that I realized, but I am willing to work to make the instrument the best it can be, I just need to know how to do it!! You'all are a great encouragement.

-------------------------------------------
Gregory Hamilton
Music Director, Faculty
Holy Trinity Seminary
Irving Tx
832-545-0900
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-04-2013 14:59
From: Gregory Hamilton
Subject: Solving Burton Problems


Ok folks, You have been of real help on this board, so I have some questions.

I just aquired (after many years of wanting to get a harpsichord) a Burton Instrument ca. 1985. The intrument structurally is pretty sound, - don't see any problems, except two pretty small cracks in the top of the soundbord - the instrument has some potential - I have it tuned and some of the notes that I have voiced show that it could be a resonant instrument.I got the instrument for cheap, knowing it would need a lot of work, it sat in a church for 15 years and was neglected.
 The instrument is one man, 8,8,4, leather buff.

There are about 30 plectra broken off, so I know I will need to replace and voice these, I know the particular difficulty in the Burtons, I have ordered new Hubbard toungues to replace the Burton toungues. So that's a given...I can do basic quilling and voicing.

But here'a another problem: I can't seem to get the instrument to sound consistent. The problem seems to be that when I move the register I want into playing position, it seems spongy and does not stay there, or it is in a slightly different place depending on how hard I jam the register on or off. This creates havoc with the voicing, since it never seems to be in excactly the same place. When I shove the register on, it will have a little 'bounce back' so it does not stay where it was when I adjusted it.

And, the short 8 register won't move, however it WILL move when I move it manually without using the brass stop guide, but the brass stop guide won't move the register by itself. The screw connecting it just moves back and forth, not moving the register.  The screw is stripped, where it goes into the register, but does that matter? 
Can I replace the screw with a larger diameter one? I don't want to strip the register further.

It is possible as well, that it  looks like moving one register also moves another, and they somewhat stick together.
The register guides are metal. I have fooled around with the capitstam at the ends of the registers, but I can't get it right. I can adjust it so that it is ok, then I move the register on and off and is does not return to the same place. ARGG.

However, combined with this, it does seem (only based on other instruments I have worked on,) is that MOST of the quilling seems just too short and stubby, and maybe this is also adding to the problem, that there is less tolerance to work with, with a too-short quill in general would decrease amount of tolerance avaliable in the voicing. Does this make sense? (I will post pics later of the quilling)

Any ideas on how to proceed? Thanks in any case!
-------------------------------------------
Gregory Hamilton
Music Director, Faculty
Holy Trinity Seminary
Irving Tx
832-545-0900
-------------------------------------------

Forgive me if I'm not quite understanding... If you are going to requill the entire thing, pull all the jacks from the register and solve the movement issues. You'll have no damper or jack interference to confuse things. Once the slide is moving freely replace sample jacks (I like C's and F's) with new quills. This will let you find the proper slide position. You want it where the quills are long enough but the jacks are clear of the strings with room to move. Cut your sample plectra to length, just long enough to stick out past the string by about a strings width. Now set your ghost position. This is all easier without dampers. You can put them in when you have the plectra cut and on and off positions established. Do the jacks have an endpin to adjust the height? Your feeling of sponginess is from a combination of unvoiced plectra and maybe too much of a gap between the plectra and the string. You can look at that now visually and set some sample endpins so the plectra get under the string but not wildly so. Plucking will feel better as you get them voiced. Once they are voiced and dampers in you will finalize the staggering. Does this help at all? Have you seen the little Frank Hubbard book on harpsichord regulation? Hubbard may have it, or Harpsichord Clearing House. Hope I haven't muddied the waters too much... ---Dave On Mar 6, 2013, at 6:37 PM, Gregory Hamilton wrote: > > Dear Fred and other members: > Thanks!! > Your advice concerning the 'ghosting' makes perfect sense. I will do this,> once I have changed all the quills and toungues, I have completed half a > rank so far. The sound is much louder, thought very rough. I decided I would > replace all the quilling and not worry about the action untill all the > quills were in...but now I have most of the near rank done - The action > right now is very spongy - ir feels like there is a LONG time after I play> the key and the quill responds - and then it is really loud and rough

David,

You have definitely not muddied the water. Very clear writing and description of the process. At least clear to me and I hope to Gregory.

-------------------------------------------
Alan McCoy
Spokane WA
ahm2352@gmail.com
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-06-2013 20:53
From: David Doremus
Subject: Solving Burton Problems

Forgive me if I'm not quite understanding... If you are going to requill the entire thing, pull all the jacks from the register and solve the movement issues. You'll have no damper or jack interference to confuse things. Once the slide is moving freely replace sample jacks (I like C's and F's) with new quills. This will let you find the proper slide position. You want it where the quills are long enough but the jacks are clear of the strings with room to move. Cut your sample plectra to length, just long enough to stick out past the string by about a strings width. Now set your ghost position. This is all easier without dampers. You can put them in when you have the plectra cut and on and off positions established. Do the jacks have an endpin to adjust the height? Your feeling of sponginess is from a combination of unvoiced plectra and maybe too much of a gap between the plectra and the string. You can look at that now visually and set some sample endpins so the plectra get under the string but not wildly so. Plucking will feel better as you get them voiced. Once they are voiced and dampers in you will finalize the staggering. Does this help at all? Have you seen the little Frank Hubbard book on harpsichord regulation? Hubbard may have it, or Harpsichord Clearing House. Hope I haven't muddied the waters too much...


---Dave


On Mar 6, 2013, at 6:37 PM, Gregory Hamilton wrote:

>
> Dear Fred and other members:
> Thanks!!
> Your advice concerning the 'ghosting' makes perfect sense. I will do this,> once I have changed all the quills and toungues, I have completed half a
> rank so far. The sound is much louder, thought very rough. I decided I would
> replace all the quilling and not worry about the action untill all the
> quills were in...but now I have most of the near rank done - The action
> right now is very spongy - ir feels like there is a LONG time after I play> the key and the quill responds - and then it is really loud and rough

Thank you again, David and Fred! I am learning more and more each day. I have been able to figure out that there are two problems in front if me: 1. I got the register plug off on the spine side, so I took all the jacks out, and got the aluminum guides out. There is indeed a problem in that the end of the soundboard has expanded into the gap where the registers Move. That is compressing the space and causing the back 8 register to jam. Ok, that's clear, so I thought I would try to just take a sharp xacto knife and trim off the ends of the Soundboard it's only about an 8th on an inch across the length in 4 or 5 places.... However, I can't GET to the soundboard because the strings are in the way, and duh, I quickly broke three strings. It looks like I will have to loosen all the strings to trim this area. Advice appreciated. 2. I assume because soundboard moving, the 4 choir strings in the middle of the range Around middle c or so is also is rubbing against the strip of wood that is screwed down across the length of the sounb next to the registers (don't know what that part is called) As far as I can see, there are three possible solotions: A: taking all strings off and raising the bridge, (very major)B: building up in some way By adding wood on top of the bridge in that middle area of the scale, or c: carving an impression In that wood strip where the strings pass over (looks bad and may cause structural problems If this part is weakened?) any other ideas? I did look into having a good harps tech come and look, there appears to be no one in my area, indo know of One very qualified guy, but he's not responding and there is no one else available that is what Larry Palmer at u of t says (I am in Dallas) so I am still on my own. Many Thanks! ------------------------------------------- Gregory Hamilton Music Director, Faculty Holy Trinity Seminary Irving Tx 832-545-0900 -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 03-08-2013 02:09 From: Alan McCoy Subject: Solving Burton Problems David, You have definitely not muddied the water. Very clear writing and description of the process. At least clear to me and I hope to Gregory. ------------------------------------------- Alan McCoy Spokane WA ahm2352@gmail.com -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 03-06-2013 20:53 From: David Doremus Subject: Solving Burton Problems Forgive me if I'm not quite understanding... If you are going to requill the entire thing, pull all the jacks from the register and solve the movement issues. You'll have no damper or jack interference to confuse things. Once the slide is moving freely replace sample jacks (I like C's and F's) with new quills. This will let you find the proper slide position. You want it where the quills are long enough but the jacks are clear of the strings with room to move. Cut your sample plectra to length, just long enough to stick out past the string by about a strings width. Now set your ghost position. This is all easier without dampers. You can put them in when you have the plectra cut and on and off positions established. Do the jacks have an endpin to adjust the height? Your feeling of sponginess is from a combination of unvoiced plectra and maybe too much of a gap between the plectra and the string. You can look at that now visually and set some sample endpins so the plectra get under the string but not wildly so. Plucking will feel better as you get them voiced. Once they are voiced and dampers in you will finalize the staggering. Does this help at all? Have you seen the little Frank Hubbard book on harpsichord regulation? Hubbard may have it, or Harpsichord Clearing House. Hope I haven't muddied the waters too much... ---Dave On Mar 6, 2013, at 6:37 PM, Gregory Hamilton wrote: > > Dear Fred and other members: > Thanks!! > Your advice concerning the 'ghosting' makes perfect sense. I will do this,> once I have changed all the quills and toungues, I have completed half a > rank so far. The sound is much louder, thought very rough. I decided I would > replace all the quilling and not worry about the action untill all the > quills were in...but now I have most of the near rank done - The action > right now is very spongy - ir feels like there is a LONG time after I play> the key and the quill responds - and then it is really loud and rough

The soundboard is creeping, due to use of aliphatic glue (yellow, titebond), a common thing in kit instruments. It may continue to creep, so that the problem will recur. To trim, I would use a chisel. Loosen a section of strings, so that you can insert something to act as a spacer, holding the strings away from 2 - 3 inches at a time. It may be possible to do so without string breakage, and keeping the coils on the tuning pins. It's a touchy sort of thing to do, but very possible.

You might find the following materials helpful, classes on harpsichord work I have given, that I have posted - powerpoints and outlines.
http://my.ptg.org/ptg/communities/resources/viewdocument?DocumentKey=66e091b9-8478-4759-ac5a-736de7a425c7
http://my.ptg.org/ptg/communities/resources/viewdocument?DocumentKey=1da0ac6b-c1df-45ec-95ff-68117338d830
http://my.ptg.org/ptg/communities/resources/viewdocument?DocumentKey=5c9d1f61-879b-4d3c-8685-7cb1fa4d8198

For the soundboard warpage, I will attach photos of installing a "happiness bar" that solves that problem: it is a dowel with a spring on it, that presses up against the soundboard right under the bridge.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-08-2013 14:30
From: Gregory Hamilton
Subject: Solving Burton Problems


Thank you again, David and Fred!
I am learning more and more each day.

I have been able to figure out that there are two problems in front if me:
1. I got the register plug off on the spine side, so I took all the jacks out, and got the aluminum
guides out. There is indeed a problem in that the end of the soundboard has expanded into the gap where the registers
Move. That is compressing the space and causing the back 8 register to jam.
Ok, that's clear, so I thought I would try to just take a sharp xacto knife and trim off the ends of the
Soundboard it's only about an 8th on an inch across the length in 4 or 5 places.... However, I can't GET to the soundboard
because the strings are in the way, and duh, I quickly broke three strings.
It looks like I will have to loosen all the strings to trim this area. Advice appreciated.

2. I assume because soundboard moving, the 4 choir strings in the middle of the range
Around middle c or so is also is rubbing against the strip of wood that is screwed down across
the length of the sounb next to the registers (don't know what that part is called)
As far as I can see, there are three possible solotions:
A: taking all strings off and raising the bridge, (very major)B: building up in some way
By adding wood on top of the bridge in that middle area of the scale, or c: carving an impression
In that wood strip where the strings pass over (looks bad and may cause structural problems
If this part is weakened?) any other ideas?

I did look into having a good harps tech come and look, there appears to be no one in my area, indo know of
One very qualified guy, but he's not responding and there is no one else available
that is what Larry Palmer at u of t says (I am in Dallas) so I am still
on my own.
Many Thanks!
-------------------------------------------
Gregory Hamilton
Music Director, Faculty
Holy Trinity Seminary
Irving Tx
832-545-0900
-------------------------------------------

I'm not sure that Titebond is the cause or simply poor construction but Fred's correct. You might be able to get into the gap from underneath if you pull the keyboards. My vague memory is that the Burton's had a strip screwed on top of the sound board through to the belly rail. If that's what's impacting the 4' strings you might be able to take it out through the gap and plane it down a bit as well as installing a happiness bar (which Bill Dowd labeled Pogo). I wouldn't try to change the bridge as that will simply put more pressure down where things are already collapsing. Harpsichord soundboards are very thin and flexible compared to piano boards. Have you tried Gerald Self in San Antonio? He might be able to help. ---Dave On Mar 8, 2013, at 2:17 PM, Fred Sturm wrote: > > The soundboard is creeping, due to use of aliphatic glue (yellow, titebond), > a common thing in kit instruments. It may continue to creep, so that the > problem will recur. To trim, I would use a chisel. > >

Thanks to David and Fred again.
David, you are right, there is this wood bracket from spine to bentside that is touching the 4'.
I have attached a couple pics of it. I looked through ther other harpsichord lists online, and I found that some people had just taken this off the instrument. Opinions about this? Would it cause structural harm? Do I need to glue the end of the SB to the belly rail?
BTW, i did see some glue under the soundboard end, and it does (as far as I can see) look like hide glue. It looks dark brown, like hide glue that I have seen. Wh.o knows.



I appreciate the pogo idea!! but the sb has not moved that much, if I could take this bar off, it would solve the problem. Or, It would work to shave it off on the top.
Having looked at the instrument a lot now, it looks like the bridges have hardly moved that much, and I think this bar is the real problem.

I have decided to totally replace all the toungues and quills, and I am about half way through the first rank.
I am halfway through trimming the end of the SB where it sticksout about an 8th of an inch, trapping the register, It's very tedious, loosening three strings and a time and trimming the wood off. But y'all know about tedious work!
Thnaks!!!
GH


-------------------------------------------
Gregory Hamilton
Music Director, Faculty
Holy Trinity Seminary
Irving Tx
832-545-0900
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-08-2013 15:47
From: David Doremus
Subject: Solving Burton Problems

I'm not sure that Titebond is the cause or simply poor construction but Fred's correct. You might be able to get into the gap from underneath if you pull the keyboards. My vague memory is that the Burton's had a strip screwed on top of the sound board through to the belly rail. If that's what's impacting the 4' strings you might be able to take it out through the gap and plane it down a bit as well as installing a happiness bar (which Bill Dowd labeled Pogo). I wouldn't try to change the bridge as that will simply put more pressure down where things are already collapsing. Harpsichord soundboards are very thin and flexible compared to piano boards.
Have you tried Gerald Self in San Antonio? He might be able to help.


---Dave


On Mar 8, 2013, at 2:17 PM, Fred Sturm wrote:

>
> The soundboard is creeping, due to use of aliphatic glue (yellow, titebond),
> a common thing in kit instruments. It may continue to creep, so that the
> problem will recur. To trim, I would use a chisel.
>
>

My recollection is that Frank Hubbard designed the Burton prototype as a 1x8, 1x4 instrument, and Burton later added the third register and strings.
I would suggest a careful examination for case stability. Check all top edges with a level to check for twisting.
Also check that the wrestplank is not warping.
If the 4' hitchpin rail is not mortised into the belly rail, it will continue to move. Or perhaps the 8' hitch pin rail or liner is pulling away from the case. 
You can add more gap spacers between the wrestplank and the belly rail, especially where the 4' hitchpin rail comes to the rail.
Burton had unusual ideas about gluing (or not gluing) the soundboard on all sides.
An unstable harpsichord with multiple registers is no fun. It would be better to simplify the registration if that's what it takes to have a dependable instrument.

-------------------------------------------
Ed Sutton
Editor
Piano Technicians Journal
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926

-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-11-2013 22:50
From: Gregory Hamilton
Subject: Solving Burton Problems

Thanks to David and Fred again.
David, you are right, there is this wood bracket from spine to bentside that is touching the 4'.
I have attached a couple pics of it. I looked through ther other harpsichord lists online, and I found that some people had just taken this off the instrument. Opinions about this? Would it cause structural harm? Do I need to glue the end of the SB to the belly rail?
BTW, i did see some glue under the soundboard end, and it does (as far as I can see) look like hide glue. It looks dark brown, like hide glue that I have seen. Wh.o knows.



I appreciate the pogo idea!! but the sb has not moved that much, if I could take this bar off, it would solve the problem. Or, It would work to shave it off on the top.
Having looked at the instrument a lot now, it looks like the bridges have hardly moved that much, and I think this bar is the real problem.

I have decided to totally replace all the toungues and quills, and I am about half way through the first rank.
I am halfway through trimming the end of the SB where it sticksout about an 8th of an inch, trapping the register, It's very tedious, loosening three strings and a time and trimming the wood off. But y'all know about tedious work!
Thnaks!!!
GH


-------------------------------------------
Gregory Hamilton
Music Director, Faculty
Holy Trinity Seminary
Irving Tx
832-545-0900
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-08-2013 15:47
From: David Doremus
Subject: Solving Burton Problems

I'm not sure that Titebond is the cause or simply poor construction but Fred's correct. You might be able to get into the gap from underneath if you pull the keyboards. My vague memory is that the Burton's had a strip screwed on top of the sound board through to the belly rail. If that's what's impacting the 4' strings you might be able to take it out through the gap and plane it down a bit as well as installing a happiness bar (which Bill Dowd labeled Pogo). I wouldn't try to change the bridge as that will simply put more pressure down where things are already collapsing. Harpsichord soundboards are very thin and flexible compared to piano boards.
Have you tried Gerald Self in San Antonio? He might be able to help.


---Dave


On Mar 8, 2013, at 2:17 PM, Fred Sturm wrote:

>
> The soundboard is creeping, due to use of aliphatic glue (yellow, titebond),
> a common thing in kit instruments. It may continue to creep, so that the
> problem will recur. To trim, I would use a chisel.
>
>

Dear folks:
Is there any consesus about whether I can remove this bar at the end of the soundboard on this Burton?
I have made great progress this weelk, the registers are moving freely in the gap, and I have relplaced all toungues and quill for the front
8'

8.
Thanks y'all!

-------------------------------------------
Gregory Hamilton
Music Director, Faculty
Holy Trinity Seminary
Irving Tx
832-545-0900
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-04-2013 14:59
From: Gregory Hamilton
Subject: Solving Burton Problems


Ok folks, You have been of real help on this board, so I have some questions.

I just aquired (after many years of wanting to get a harpsichord) a Burton Instrument ca. 1985. The intrument structurally is pretty sound, - don't see any problems, except two pretty small cracks in the top of the soundbord - the instrument has some potential - I have it tuned and some of the notes that I have voiced show that it could be a resonant instrument.I got the instrument for cheap, knowing it would need a lot of work, it sat in a church for 15 years and was neglected.
 The instrument is one man, 8,8,4, leather buff.

There are about 30 plectra broken off, so I know I will need to replace and voice these, I know the particular difficulty in the Burtons, I have ordered new Hubbard toungues to replace the Burton toungues. So that's a given...I can do basic quilling and voicing.

But here'a another problem: I can't seem to get the instrument to sound consistent. The problem seems to be that when I move the register I want into playing position, it seems spongy and does not stay there, or it is in a slightly different place depending on how hard I jam the register on or off. This creates havoc with the voicing, since it never seems to be in excactly the same place. When I shove the register on, it will have a little 'bounce back' so it does not stay where it was when I adjusted it.

And, the short 8 register won't move, however it WILL move when I move it manually without using the brass stop guide, but the brass stop guide won't move the register by itself. The screw connecting it just moves back and forth, not moving the register.  The screw is stripped, where it goes into the register, but does that matter? 
Can I replace the screw with a larger diameter one? I don't want to strip the register further.

It is possible as well, that it  looks like moving one register also moves another, and they somewhat stick together.
The register guides are metal. I have fooled around with the capitstam at the ends of the registers, but I can't get it right. I can adjust it so that it is ok, then I move the register on and off and is does not return to the same place. ARGG.

However, combined with this, it does seem (only based on other instruments I have worked on,) is that MOST of the quilling seems just too short and stubby, and maybe this is also adding to the problem, that there is less tolerance to work with, with a too-short quill in general would decrease amount of tolerance avaliable in the voicing. Does this make sense? (I will post pics later of the quilling)

Any ideas on how to proceed? Thanks in any case!
-------------------------------------------
Gregory Hamilton
Music Director, Faculty
Holy Trinity Seminary
Irving Tx
832-545-0900
-------------------------------------------

On most harpsichords, the soundboard is simply glued to the belly rail, nothing on top of it. That strip of wood is probably there more for the convenience of kit making than anything else. It takes quite a few clamps to glue a whole soundboard to a rim, and strips of wood with screws are a way of avoiding the need to have so much equipment. Assuming there is a good glue join between the board and the rail, the strip of wood is unneeded. But to be sure, you could either plane that one thinner and reinstall it, or replace it with a thinner strip, that won't interfere with the strings.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-19-2013 08:51
From: Gregory Hamilton
Subject: Solving Burton Problems

Dear folks:
Is there any consesus about whether I can remove this bar at the end of the soundboard on this Burton?
I have made great progress this weelk, the registers are moving freely in the gap, and I have relplaced all toungues and quill for the front
8'

8.
Thanks y'all!

-------------------------------------------
Gregory Hamilton
Music Director, Faculty
Holy Trinity Seminary
Irving Tx
832-545-0900
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-04-2013 14:59
From: Gregory Hamilton
Subject: Solving Burton Problems


Ok folks, You have been of real help on this board, so I have some questions.

I just aquired (after many years of wanting to get a harpsichord) a Burton Instrument ca. 1985. The intrument structurally is pretty sound, - don't see any problems, except two pretty small cracks in the top of the soundbord - the instrument has some potential - I have it tuned and some of the notes that I have voiced show that it could be a resonant instrument.I got the instrument for cheap, knowing it would need a lot of work, it sat in a church for 15 years and was neglected.
 The instrument is one man, 8,8,4, leather buff.

There are about 30 plectra broken off, so I know I will need to replace and voice these, I know the particular difficulty in the Burtons, I have ordered new Hubbard toungues to replace the Burton toungues. So that's a given...I can do basic quilling and voicing.

But here'a another problem: I can't seem to get the instrument to sound consistent. The problem seems to be that when I move the register I want into playing position, it seems spongy and does not stay there, or it is in a slightly different place depending on how hard I jam the register on or off. This creates havoc with the voicing, since it never seems to be in excactly the same place. When I shove the register on, it will have a little 'bounce back' so it does not stay where it was when I adjusted it.

And, the short 8 register won't move, however it WILL move when I move it manually without using the brass stop guide, but the brass stop guide won't move the register by itself. The screw connecting it just moves back and forth, not moving the register.  The screw is stripped, where it goes into the register, but does that matter? 
Can I replace the screw with a larger diameter one? I don't want to strip the register further.

It is possible as well, that it  looks like moving one register also moves another, and they somewhat stick together.
The register guides are metal. I have fooled around with the capitstam at the ends of the registers, but I can't get it right. I can adjust it so that it is ok, then I move the register on and off and is does not return to the same place. ARGG.

However, combined with this, it does seem (only based on other instruments I have worked on,) is that MOST of the quilling seems just too short and stubby, and maybe this is also adding to the problem, that there is less tolerance to work with, with a too-short quill in general would decrease amount of tolerance avaliable in the voicing. Does this make sense? (I will post pics later of the quilling)

Any ideas on how to proceed? Thanks in any case!
-------------------------------------------
Gregory Hamilton
Music Director, Faculty
Holy Trinity Seminary
Irving Tx
832-545-0900
-------------------------------------------

I took one off a couple years ago in order to get the slides out. Nothing fell apart. I replaced it when I was done. I don't see any reason not to thin it if you have to. Am I missing something? Fred? Ed? -- Dave On 3/19/13 7:50 AM, Gregory Hamilton wrote: > Dear folks: > Is there any consesus about whether I can remove this bar at the end of the > soundboard on this Burton? > I have made great progress this weelk, the registers are moving freely in > the gap, and I have relplaced all toungues and quill for the front > 8' > > 8. > Thanks y'all! > > ------------------------------------------- > Gregory Hamilton > Music Director, Faculty > Holy Trinity Seminary > Irving Tx > 832-545-0900 > ------------------------------------------- > > >

Thank you all, for replies.
Ok, progress report: I have unstuck the registers, and they move freely now. I have all the front 8  re-quilled and have about half voiced and in the instrument. The instrument is much more resonant that I thought, and there is a nice potential, which is good!
Next question:
Concerning the front 8 rank - should the dampers rest on the strings, at the same time that the jacks are touching the ends of the keys?
I am running into the problem of when the dampers are down on the string, they create a springiness that moves the register out of position slightly egnough to alter the plucking point.I realize that I should voice without the dampers at first.

This is a one manual 8,8,4.

Thanks!

-------------------------------------------
Gregory Hamilton
Music Director, Faculty
Holy Trinity Seminary
Irving Tx
832-545-0900
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-04-2013 14:59
From: Gregory Hamilton
Subject: Solving Burton Problems


Ok folks, You have been of real help on this board, so I have some questions.

I just aquired (after many years of wanting to get a harpsichord) a Burton Instrument ca. 1985. The intrument structurally is pretty sound, - don't see any problems, except two pretty small cracks in the top of the soundbord - the instrument has some potential - I have it tuned and some of the notes that I have voiced show that it could be a resonant instrument.I got the instrument for cheap, knowing it would need a lot of work, it sat in a church for 15 years and was neglected.
 The instrument is one man, 8,8,4, leather buff.

There are about 30 plectra broken off, so I know I will need to replace and voice these, I know the particular difficulty in the Burtons, I have ordered new Hubbard toungues to replace the Burton toungues. So that's a given...I can do basic quilling and voicing.

But here'a another problem: I can't seem to get the instrument to sound consistent. The problem seems to be that when I move the register I want into playing position, it seems spongy and does not stay there, or it is in a slightly different place depending on how hard I jam the register on or off. This creates havoc with the voicing, since it never seems to be in excactly the same place. When I shove the register on, it will have a little 'bounce back' so it does not stay where it was when I adjusted it.

And, the short 8 register won't move, however it WILL move when I move it manually without using the brass stop guide, but the brass stop guide won't move the register by itself. The screw connecting it just moves back and forth, not moving the register.  The screw is stripped, where it goes into the register, but does that matter? 
Can I replace the screw with a larger diameter one? I don't want to strip the register further.

It is possible as well, that it  looks like moving one register also moves another, and they somewhat stick together.
The register guides are metal. I have fooled around with the capitstam at the ends of the registers, but I can't get it right. I can adjust it so that it is ok, then I move the register on and off and is does not return to the same place. ARGG.

However, combined with this, it does seem (only based on other instruments I have worked on,) is that MOST of the quilling seems just too short and stubby, and maybe this is also adding to the problem, that there is less tolerance to work with, with a too-short quill in general would decrease amount of tolerance avaliable in the voicing. Does this make sense? (I will post pics later of the quilling)

Any ideas on how to proceed? Thanks in any case!
-------------------------------------------
Gregory Hamilton
Music Director, Faculty
Holy Trinity Seminary
Irving Tx
832-545-0900
-------------------------------------------

Congrats on all your efforts thus far, Gregory.

One manual with three choirs ... wow.

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
tune-repair@allegiance.tv

Original Message:
Sent: 03-20-2013 12:44
From: Gregory Hamilton
... This is a one manual 8,8,4 ...

Thanks Keith, this project gives me a lot of respect for what you guys do every day. It's very exacting work, and difficult.

-------------------------------------------
Gregory Hamilton
Music Director, Faculty
Holy Trinity Seminary
Irving Tx
832-545-0900
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-20-2013 13:29
From: Keith McGavern
Subject: Solving Burton Problems

Congrats on all your efforts thus far, Gregory.

One manual with three choirs ... wow.

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
tune-repair@allegiance.tv

Original Message:
Sent: 03-20-2013 12:44
From: Gregory Hamilton
... This is a one manual 8,8,4 ...

This is a great help, David and Fred!
It's slowly sounding and feeling better and I improve the voicing.
 

-------------------------------------------
Gregory Hamilton
Music Director, Faculty
Holy Trinity Seminary
Irving Tx
832-545-0900
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-20-2013 19:29
From: Gregory Hamilton
Subject: Solving Burton Problems

Thanks Keith, this project gives me a lot of respect for what you guys do every day. It's very exacting work, and difficult.

-------------------------------------------
Gregory Hamilton
Music Director, Faculty
Holy Trinity Seminary
Irving Tx
832-545-0900
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-20-2013 13:29
From: Keith McGavern
Subject: Solving Burton Problems

Congrats on all your efforts thus far, Gregory.

One manual with three choirs ... wow.

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
tune-repair@allegiance.tv

Original Message:
Sent: 03-20-2013 12:44
From: Gregory Hamilton
... This is a one manual 8,8,4 ...

Gregory,

I wish I could take credit for the kudos you extended in my direction, Greg, but harpsichord work is not something I do every day, hardly ever, but that doesn't stop me from appreciating the reality of detailed work it takes to keep them operating correctly.

 

Sincerest regards,

 

Keith McGavern, RPT

Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA

tune-repair@allegiance.tv

-------------------------------------------

 

Original Message:

Sent: 03-20-2013 19:29

From: Gregory Hamilton

... this project gives me a lot of respect for what you guys do every day. 

This is a tricky regulation:
The dampers have to contact the strings when the jack is at rest, and, to be effective, "a little more", meaning the damper has to be low enough to follow the string, so the jack should actually hang on the string by the damper, in an ideal situation. The bottom of the jack (or the screw head) may then be a bit above the back of the key. It can't be supported too much by the key, or that will keep the damper from functioning well.

All that said, the felt of the damper and the felt at the back of the key each gives a bit. The damper felt is liable to flex/bend, and the felt on the back of the key compresses. So you CAN have the jack essentially resting on both the string (via the damper) and the back of the key at the same time, under some circumstances. But in general I like to have the key depress a little before the jack starts to rise. The on/off problem is probably best solved by having more friction in the lever, ie tightening the screw it pivots on, so it moves and holds the register in place more positively.

More important to the whole set up, with three ranks of jacks, will be stagger of pluck, achieved in a Burton by adjusting the jacks' bottom screws. You will want to make each of the three jacks on each key pluck in sequence, and so there is no need to be too particular about how you have set the bottom screw of a single rank (and therefore where the damper is adjusted up or down) until you are adjusting them all. You might decide on the plucking order (typically 4', front 8', back 8', front being closest to the keyboard), and so the front 8' that you are starting on would contact the string with very little depression of the key, as it would be plucking earlier. Then you set the damper to match that.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-20-2013 12:44
From: Gregory Hamilton
Subject: Solving Burton Problems

Thank you all, for replies.
Ok, progress report: I have unstuck the registers, and they move freely now. I have all the front 8  re-quilled and have about half voiced and in the instrument. The instrument is much more resonant that I thought, and there is a nice potential, which is good!
Next question:
Concerning the front 8 rank - should the dampers rest on the strings, at the same time that the jacks are touching the ends of the keys?
I am running into the problem of when the dampers are down on the string, they create a springiness that moves the register out of position slightly egnough to alter the plucking point.I realize that I should voice without the dampers at first.

This is a one manual 8,8,4.

Thanks!

-------------------------------------------
Gregory Hamilton
Music Director, Faculty
Holy Trinity Seminary
Irving Tx
832-545-0900
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-04-2013 14:59
From: Gregory Hamilton
Subject: Solving Burton Problems


Ok folks, You have been of real help on this board, so I have some questions.

I just aquired (after many years of wanting to get a harpsichord) a Burton Instrument ca. 1985. The intrument structurally is pretty sound, - don't see any problems, except two pretty small cracks in the top of the soundbord - the instrument has some potential - I have it tuned and some of the notes that I have voiced show that it could be a resonant instrument.I got the instrument for cheap, knowing it would need a lot of work, it sat in a church for 15 years and was neglected.
 The instrument is one man, 8,8,4, leather buff.

There are about 30 plectra broken off, so I know I will need to replace and voice these, I know the particular difficulty in the Burtons, I have ordered new Hubbard toungues to replace the Burton toungues. So that's a given...I can do basic quilling and voicing.

But here'a another problem: I can't seem to get the instrument to sound consistent. The problem seems to be that when I move the register I want into playing position, it seems spongy and does not stay there, or it is in a slightly different place depending on how hard I jam the register on or off. This creates havoc with the voicing, since it never seems to be in excactly the same place. When I shove the register on, it will have a little 'bounce back' so it does not stay where it was when I adjusted it.

And, the short 8 register won't move, however it WILL move when I move it manually without using the brass stop guide, but the brass stop guide won't move the register by itself. The screw connecting it just moves back and forth, not moving the register.  The screw is stripped, where it goes into the register, but does that matter? 
Can I replace the screw with a larger diameter one? I don't want to strip the register further.

It is possible as well, that it  looks like moving one register also moves another, and they somewhat stick together.
The register guides are metal. I have fooled around with the capitstam at the ends of the registers, but I can't get it right. I can adjust it so that it is ok, then I move the register on and off and is does not return to the same place. ARGG.

However, combined with this, it does seem (only based on other instruments I have worked on,) is that MOST of the quilling seems just too short and stubby, and maybe this is also adding to the problem, that there is less tolerance to work with, with a too-short quill in general would decrease amount of tolerance avaliable in the voicing. Does this make sense? (I will post pics later of the quilling)

Any ideas on how to proceed? Thanks in any case!
-------------------------------------------
Gregory Hamilton
Music Director, Faculty
Holy Trinity Seminary
Irving Tx
832-545-0900
-------------------------------------------

Thank you so much Fred!!
I realised that the register lever would help with the register movement, thanks.
I have all the front 8 in now and am beginning to voice.
when you work on a three stop instrument, do you pretty much do one rank at a time- for example,
finish voicing the front rank before moving on to the other 8 or 4?
Or is it better to work on all the ranks together, so you can set the stagger?
I recall in your notes that you said it is kind of a circular process?

I guess I am asking how the order proceeds - it seems that to get the stagger, you would end up changing the voicing, which could mess
up the work you have already done on voicing.

I am grateful for your help. I have a call in to Gerald Self in san Antonio, I can't find anyone in Dallas avaliable.

-------------------------------------------
Gregory Hamilton
Music Director, Faculty
Holy Trinity Seminary
Irving Tx
832-545-0900
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-20-2013 14:35
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Solving Burton Problems

This is a tricky regulation:
The dampers have to contact the strings when the jack is at rest, and, to be effective, "a little more", meaning the damper has to be low enough to follow the string, so the jack should actually hang on the string by the damper, in an ideal situation. The bottom of the jack (or the screw head) may then be a bit above the back of the key. It can't be supported too much by the key, or that will keep the damper from functioning well.

All that said, the felt of the damper and the felt at the back of the key each gives a bit. The damper felt is liable to flex/bend, and the felt on the back of the key compresses. So you CAN have the jack essentially resting on both the string (via the damper) and the back of the key at the same time, under some circumstances. But in general I like to have the key depress a little before the jack starts to rise. The on/off problem is probably best solved by having more friction in the lever, ie tightening the screw it pivots on, so it moves and holds the register in place more positively.

More important to the whole set up, with three ranks of jacks, will be stagger of pluck, achieved in a Burton by adjusting the jacks' bottom screws. You will want to make each of the three jacks on each key pluck in sequence, and so there is no need to be too particular about how you have set the bottom screw of a single rank (and therefore where the damper is adjusted up or down) until you are adjusting them all. You might decide on the plucking order (typically 4', front 8', back 8', front being closest to the keyboard), and so the front 8' that you are starting on would contact the string with very little depression of the key, as it would be plucking earlier. Then you set the damper to match that.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-20-2013 12:44
From: Gregory Hamilton
Subject: Solving Burton Problems

Thank you all, for replies.
Ok, progress report: I have unstuck the registers, and they move freely now. I have all the front 8  re-quilled and have about half voiced and in the instrument. The instrument is much more resonant that I thought, and there is a nice potential, which is good!
Next question:
Concerning the front 8 rank - should the dampers rest on the strings, at the same time that the jacks are touching the ends of the keys?
I am running into the problem of when the dampers are down on the string, they create a springiness that moves the register out of position slightly egnough to alter the plucking point.I realize that I should voice without the dampers at first.

This is a one manual 8,8,4.

Thanks!

-------------------------------------------
Gregory Hamilton
Music Director, Faculty
Holy Trinity Seminary
Irving Tx
832-545-0900
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-04-2013 14:59
From: Gregory Hamilton
Subject: Solving Burton Problems


Ok folks, You have been of real help on this board, so I have some questions.

I just aquired (after many years of wanting to get a harpsichord) a Burton Instrument ca. 1985. The intrument structurally is pretty sound, - don't see any problems, except two pretty small cracks in the top of the soundbord - the instrument has some potential - I have it tuned and some of the notes that I have voiced show that it could be a resonant instrument.I got the instrument for cheap, knowing it would need a lot of work, it sat in a church for 15 years and was neglected.
 The instrument is one man, 8,8,4, leather buff.

There are about 30 plectra broken off, so I know I will need to replace and voice these, I know the particular difficulty in the Burtons, I have ordered new Hubbard toungues to replace the Burton toungues. So that's a given...I can do basic quilling and voicing.

But here'a another problem: I can't seem to get the instrument to sound consistent. The problem seems to be that when I move the register I want into playing position, it seems spongy and does not stay there, or it is in a slightly different place depending on how hard I jam the register on or off. This creates havoc with the voicing, since it never seems to be in excactly the same place. When I shove the register on, it will have a little 'bounce back' so it does not stay where it was when I adjusted it.

And, the short 8 register won't move, however it WILL move when I move it manually without using the brass stop guide, but the brass stop guide won't move the register by itself. The screw connecting it just moves back and forth, not moving the register.  The screw is stripped, where it goes into the register, but does that matter? 
Can I replace the screw with a larger diameter one? I don't want to strip the register further.

It is possible as well, that it  looks like moving one register also moves another, and they somewhat stick together.
The register guides are metal. I have fooled around with the capitstam at the ends of the registers, but I can't get it right. I can adjust it so that it is ok, then I move the register on and off and is does not return to the same place. ARGG.

However, combined with this, it does seem (only based on other instruments I have worked on,) is that MOST of the quilling seems just too short and stubby, and maybe this is also adding to the problem, that there is less tolerance to work with, with a too-short quill in general would decrease amount of tolerance avaliable in the voicing. Does this make sense? (I will post pics later of the quilling)

Any ideas on how to proceed? Thanks in any case!
-------------------------------------------
Gregory Hamilton
Music Director, Faculty
Holy Trinity Seminary
Irving Tx
832-545-0900
-------------------------------------------

Gerald Self is a top notch harpsichord person. You can't go wrong with him.

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
tune-repair@allegiance.tv

Original Message:
Sent: 03-20-2013 19:28
From: Gregory Hamilton
...  I have a call in to Gerald Self in san Antonio, ...

Fred,

This is a very tricky regulation. Dampers need to be somewhat "hanging" on the string, but they also need to be partially supported by the key end. Achieving this is tricky. If the damper just hangs on the string with no other support, eventually the felt curls and misses the string. We had that problem with our Dowd at San Francisco State university, and it kept recurring with replacement dampers - until local harpsichord builder Kevin Fryer came by (for a PTG chapter technical) and explained this to us. BTW, Kevin is a member of PTG and of our SF chapter, and I suggested that he be invited to teach at next year's WESTPAC conference to be held in San Francisco (well, actually in Redwood City, closer to Palo Alto and Stanford U...) He is a very interesting and knowlegeable presenter. He has offered to host a tour of his shop during the conference - it's not too far from the conference site.

-------------------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
A-Major Piano Services
Albany, CA 94706
510-558-0777
custos3@comcast.net

-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-20-2013 14:35
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Solving Burton Problems

This is a tricky regulation:
The dampers have to contact the strings when the jack is at rest, and, to be effective, "a little more", meaning the damper has to be low enough to follow the string, so the jack should actually hang on the string by the damper, in an ideal situation. The bottom of the jack (or the screw head) may then be a bit above the back of the key. It can't be supported too much by the key, or that will keep the damper from functioning well.

All that said, the felt of the damper and the felt at the back of the key each gives a bit. The damper felt is liable to flex/bend, and the felt on the back of the key compresses. So you CAN have the jack essentially resting on both the string (via the damper) and the back of the key at the same time, under some circumstances. But in general I like to have the key depress a little before the jack starts to rise. The on/off problem is probably best solved by having more friction in the lever, ie tightening the screw it pivots on, so it moves and holds the register in place more positively.

More important to the whole set up, with three ranks of jacks, will be stagger of pluck, achieved in a Burton by adjusting the jacks' bottom screws. You will want to make each of the three jacks on each key pluck in sequence, and so there is no need to be too particular about how you have set the bottom screw of a single rank (and therefore where the damper is adjusted up or down) until you are adjusting them all. You might decide on the plucking order (typically 4', front 8', back 8', front being closest to the keyboard), and so the front 8' that you are starting on would contact the string with very little depression of the key, as it would be plucking earlier. Then you set the damper to match that.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-20-2013 12:44
From: Gregory Hamilton
Subject: Solving Burton Problems

Thank you all, for replies.
Ok, progress report: I have unstuck the registers, and they move freely now. I have all the front 8  re-quilled and have about half voiced and in the instrument. The instrument is much more resonant that I thought, and there is a nice potential, which is good!
Next question:
Concerning the front 8 rank - should the dampers rest on the strings, at the same time that the jacks are touching the ends of the keys?
I am running into the problem of when the dampers are down on the string, they create a springiness that moves the register out of position slightly egnough to alter the plucking point.I realize that I should voice without the dampers at first.

This is a one manual 8,8,4.

Thanks!

-------------------------------------------
Gregory Hamilton
Music Director, Faculty
Holy Trinity Seminary
Irving Tx
832-545-0900
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-04-2013 14:59
From: Gregory Hamilton
Subject: Solving Burton Problems


Ok folks, You have been of real help on this board, so I have some questions.

I just aquired (after many years of wanting to get a harpsichord) a Burton Instrument ca. 1985. The intrument structurally is pretty sound, - don't see any problems, except two pretty small cracks in the top of the soundbord - the instrument has some potential - I have it tuned and some of the notes that I have voiced show that it could be a resonant instrument.I got the instrument for cheap, knowing it would need a lot of work, it sat in a church for 15 years and was neglected.
 The instrument is one man, 8,8,4, leather buff.

There are about 30 plectra broken off, so I know I will need to replace and voice these, I know the particular difficulty in the Burtons, I have ordered new Hubbard toungues to replace the Burton toungues. So that's a given...I can do basic quilling and voicing.

But here'a another problem: I can't seem to get the instrument to sound consistent. The problem seems to be that when I move the register I want into playing position, it seems spongy and does not stay there, or it is in a slightly different place depending on how hard I jam the register on or off. This creates havoc with the voicing, since it never seems to be in excactly the same place. When I shove the register on, it will have a little 'bounce back' so it does not stay where it was when I adjusted it.

And, the short 8 register won't move, however it WILL move when I move it manually without using the brass stop guide, but the brass stop guide won't move the register by itself. The screw connecting it just moves back and forth, not moving the register.  The screw is stripped, where it goes into the register, but does that matter? 
Can I replace the screw with a larger diameter one? I don't want to strip the register further.

It is possible as well, that it  looks like moving one register also moves another, and they somewhat stick together.
The register guides are metal. I have fooled around with the capitstam at the ends of the registers, but I can't get it right. I can adjust it so that it is ok, then I move the register on and off and is does not return to the same place. ARGG.

However, combined with this, it does seem (only based on other instruments I have worked on,) is that MOST of the quilling seems just too short and stubby, and maybe this is also adding to the problem, that there is less tolerance to work with, with a too-short quill in general would decrease amount of tolerance avaliable in the voicing. Does this make sense? (I will post pics later of the quilling)

Any ideas on how to proceed? Thanks in any case!
-------------------------------------------
Gregory Hamilton
Music Director, Faculty
Holy Trinity Seminary
Irving Tx
832-545-0900
-------------------------------------------

Yes, it is true that if the damper felt is "somewhat flimsy" you need to be certain to have the balance between slight support of the back of the key felt and the positive pressure of the felt on the string. This makes for a set up that is very much humidity sensitive, so there will be ringing dampers when it dries out and the nut shrinks, lowering the string level. Been there many times.

I prefer, if possible, to use a stiffer felt. The earliest "extra quality" key bushing felt sold by Schaff many years ago works very well. I don't know if it is the same today, as I am still using bulk cloth I bought then. The range of thicknesses was not good, so I rarely use it for bushing keys, but it has a stiffness that will hold up to the job of supporting a jack. I prefer to have it a little more in that direction, with the string supporting the jack via the damper just above the back of the key, both to account for humidity change and to make the transposing shift (where present) work better.

I also like to trim the bottom of the damper felt "clean" - remove the fuzzies with a sharp blade or with my damper scissors - so there will be less friction when the registers are shifted.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-22-2013 09:41
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Solving Burton Problems

Fred,

This is a very tricky regulation. Dampers need to be somewhat "hanging" on the string, but they also need to be partially supported by the key end. Achieving this is tricky. If the damper just hangs on the string with no other support, eventually the felt curls and misses the string. We had that problem with our Dowd at San Francisco State university, and it kept recurring with replacement dampers - until local harpsichord builder Kevin Fryer came by (for a PTG chapter technical) and explained this to us. BTW, Kevin is a member of PTG and of our SF chapter, and I suggested that he be invited to teach at next year's WESTPAC conference to be held in San Francisco (well, actually in Redwood City, closer to Palo Alto and Stanford U...) He is a very interesting and knowlegeable presenter. He has offered to host a tour of his shop during the conference - it's not too far from the conference site.

-------------------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
A-Major Piano Services
Albany, CA 94706
510-558-0777
custos3@comcast.net

-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-20-2013 14:35
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Solving Burton Problems

This is a tricky regulation:
The dampers have to contact the strings when the jack is at rest, and, to be effective, "a little more", meaning the damper has to be low enough to follow the string, so the jack should actually hang on the string by the damper, in an ideal situation. The bottom of the jack (or the screw head) may then be a bit above the back of the key. It can't be supported too much by the key, or that will keep the damper from functioning well.

All that said, the felt of the damper and the felt at the back of the key each gives a bit. The damper felt is liable to flex/bend, and the felt on the back of the key compresses. So you CAN have the jack essentially resting on both the string (via the damper) and the back of the key at the same time, under some circumstances. But in general I like to have the key depress a little before the jack starts to rise. The on/off problem is probably best solved by having more friction in the lever, ie tightening the screw it pivots on, so it moves and holds the register in place more positively.

More important to the whole set up, with three ranks of jacks, will be stagger of pluck, achieved in a Burton by adjusting the jacks' bottom screws. You will want to make each of the three jacks on each key pluck in sequence, and so there is no need to be too particular about how you have set the bottom screw of a single rank (and therefore where the damper is adjusted up or down) until you are adjusting them all. You might decide on the plucking order (typically 4', front 8', back 8', front being closest to the keyboard), and so the front 8' that you are starting on would contact the string with very little depression of the key, as it would be plucking earlier. Then you set the damper to match that.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-20-2013 12:44
From: Gregory Hamilton
Subject: Solving Burton Problems

Thank you all, for replies.
Ok, progress report: I have unstuck the registers, and they move freely now. I have all the front 8  re-quilled and have about half voiced and in the instrument. The instrument is much more resonant that I thought, and there is a nice potential, which is good!
Next question:
Concerning the front 8 rank - should the dampers rest on the strings, at the same time that the jacks are touching the ends of the keys?
I am running into the problem of when the dampers are down on the string, they create a springiness that moves the register out of position slightly egnough to alter the plucking point.I realize that I should voice without the dampers at first.

This is a one manual 8,8,4.

Thanks!

-------------------------------------------
Gregory Hamilton
Music Director, Faculty
Holy Trinity Seminary
Irving Tx
832-545-0900
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-04-2013 14:59
From: Gregory Hamilton
Subject: Solving Burton Problems


Ok folks, You have been of real help on this board, so I have some questions.

I just aquired (after many years of wanting to get a harpsichord) a Burton Instrument ca. 1985. The intrument structurally is pretty sound, - don't see any problems, except two pretty small cracks in the top of the soundbord - the instrument has some potential - I have it tuned and some of the notes that I have voiced show that it could be a resonant instrument.I got the instrument for cheap, knowing it would need a lot of work, it sat in a church for 15 years and was neglected.
 The instrument is one man, 8,8,4, leather buff.

There are about 30 plectra broken off, so I know I will need to replace and voice these, I know the particular difficulty in the Burtons, I have ordered new Hubbard toungues to replace the Burton toungues. So that's a given...I can do basic quilling and voicing.

But here'a another problem: I can't seem to get the instrument to sound consistent. The problem seems to be that when I move the register I want into playing position, it seems spongy and does not stay there, or it is in a slightly different place depending on how hard I jam the register on or off. This creates havoc with the voicing, since it never seems to be in excactly the same place. When I shove the register on, it will have a little 'bounce back' so it does not stay where it was when I adjusted it.

And, the short 8 register won't move, however it WILL move when I move it manually without using the brass stop guide, but the brass stop guide won't move the register by itself. The screw connecting it just moves back and forth, not moving the register.  The screw is stripped, where it goes into the register, but does that matter? 
Can I replace the screw with a larger diameter one? I don't want to strip the register further.

It is possible as well, that it  looks like moving one register also moves another, and they somewhat stick together.
The register guides are metal. I have fooled around with the capitstam at the ends of the registers, but I can't get it right. I can adjust it so that it is ok, then I move the register on and off and is does not return to the same place. ARGG.

However, combined with this, it does seem (only based on other instruments I have worked on,) is that MOST of the quilling seems just too short and stubby, and maybe this is also adding to the problem, that there is less tolerance to work with, with a too-short quill in general would decrease amount of tolerance avaliable in the voicing. Does this make sense? (I will post pics later of the quilling)

Any ideas on how to proceed? Thanks in any case!
-------------------------------------------
Gregory Hamilton
Music Director, Faculty
Holy Trinity Seminary
Irving Tx
832-545-0900
-------------------------------------------

In my habit stagger is last. Voicing will affect it so you can't set it exactly until you have the voicing under control. You have endpins so it shouldn't be that tricky. Get all the quills in, ghosted and set the on position. I usually start with the back 8' as that's the main voice. The front 8' and 4' want to blend in with the back 8' nicely. I will do F's and C's first just to see what sounds good. Touch and sound are inseparable, so a loud pluck will be more resistant and require more jack travel. Once you have it roughly voiced you can set the jack travel (is it jack rail or key dip that controls that on this one?), and stagger. Then go back and refine the voicing individually and together, and then the stagger. It's like piano regulation, you have to go around a couple times to pull it all together. Don't worry if you have to throw out a plectra or several in the process, that's part of it. I have dealt with Gerald Self as Tulane has a French double that he built. He's a good guy. Hope this helps! ---Dave On Mar 20, 2013, at 6:27 PM, Gregory Hamilton wrote: > > Thank you so much Fred!! > I realised that the register lever would help with the register movement, > thanks. > I have all the front 8 in now and am beginning to voice. > when you work on a three stop instrument, do you pretty much do one rank at > a time- for example, > finish voicing the front rank before moving on to the other 8 or 4? > Or is it better to work on all the ranks together, so you can set the > stagger? >

I'll just add to David's post that I insert quills, ghost them (a rank at a time), then install dampers. The dampers can be set to length fairly well by eye, making them just longer than the plectrum. Take a strip of damper felt, support the bottom of the jack (i usually rest it against my chest) and pull the felt into the slot and down, thumb and finger of each hand on each side of the jack. Pull down to above the plectrum, then pull to length, usually making it shorter, while eying the felt's relation to the plectrum end - aligning your eye so you are sighting precisely along the front of the jack. The last minor adjustment is done "rolling" or "pinching" your finger and thumb against the body of the jack. Then cut along the back of the jack, either with a scalpel blade (or single edge razor) or nip with flush cut nippers (my preference).

This gets you in a very good ballpark for later refinement. And you do want the dampers in and working when you are voicing, but it is more convenient to install and ghost the plectra without them - and then you can use the final length of the plectra as a guide for the damper length.

The 4' damper felt needs to be tapered before insertion, so it won't touch the 8' string above it. I simply use nippers to cut a nice, neat angle, then pull the felt into the slot, then pull the felt back to length.

Stagger is last, but it makes sense to sort of set things up as you go along. So when I first install plectra, I rough in how far below the string they are. Or you can wait and rough it in later, but it is more efficient to rough that in rather than do every note "custom." IOW, you make the 4' closest to the string, the front 8' estimated a little farther, the back 8' farther still, so when you do the actual staggering things are somewhere in the vicinity and not being established from scratch.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-20-2013 21:08
From: David Doremus
Subject: Solving Burton Problems

In my habit stagger is last. Voicing will affect it so you can't set it exactly until you have the voicing under control. You have endpins so it shouldn't be that tricky. Get all the quills in, ghosted and set the on position. I usually start with the back 8' as that's the main voice. The front 8' and 4' want to blend in with the back 8' nicely. I will do F's and C's first just to see what sounds good. Touch and sound are inseparable, so a loud pluck will be more resistant and require more jack travel. Once you have it roughly voiced you can set the jack travel (is it jack rail or key dip that controls that on this one?), and stagger. Then go back and refine the voicing individually and together, and then the stagger. It's like piano regulation, you have to go around a couple times to pull it all together. Don't worry if you have to throw out a plectra or several in the process, that's part of it. I have dealt with Gerald Self as Tulane has a French double that he built. He's a good guy. Hope this helps!


---Dave

Fred's right about dampers, I was writing while waiting for my 11 yr olds basketball game to start and wasn't thorough. Flush cutters are good, I used razor blades and toenail clippers for a long time before trying the nippers. I cut 4' dampers after they are in place but that's purely habit. I will rough in the height of the quill under the string by setting samples in the instrument and then just turning endpins with them all lined up in order on a jack tray. Stagger order is the subject of some debate, Dowd describes a Blanchet that seems to have plucked lower 8', upper 8', 4'. I would put the back (more flexible, usually lower manual) 8' before the one close to the nut, as that one, being stiffer and brighter naturally, will be voiced a little lighter to blend in. 4' first, last or in between will be dictated by taste and also by what the length of your jack tells you. Sorry if this is confused or info overload, hope it helps! ---Dave On Mar 20, 2013, at 8:47 PM, Fred Sturm wrote: > > I'll just add to David's post that I insert quills, ghost them (a rank at a> time), then install dampers.

David's right, there are lots of different orders for stagger. My own standard set up for double manual instruments with three sets of jacks - 4', back 8', front 8' - is based on the notion that the 4' requires the least amount of key movement, is the lightest, and the strings have the least amplitude of vibration, so the plectra can be very close to the string. Also, the plectra generally underhang (I think there is a better word, but am not coming up with it) the string less, so they can re-set with less downward movement. The back 8' is the principal rank, so you don't want to have a "low plucking point" - a long distance between the plectrum and the string, leading to a lot of key movement before you get pluck - on that register, as that won't feel nice when it is played alone. The front 8' is typically on the upper manual of a double manual. So you can set the plucking point nice and close when it is played with the upper manual keys, and yet have it come last in stagger by having a small gap between the coupler dogs of the lower manual keys and the bottoms of the upper manual keys.

This last doesn't apply to a single manual instrument with all three ranks activated by one set of keys, and so my tendency would be to put front 8' ahead of back 8' in that scenario. My reasoning is that the front 8' is likely to be voiced lighter and take less keydip to get through pluck, so you are going from lightest to heaviest, from least amount of plectrum flex to greatest, and you have the option of minimizing the amount of key dip, which many harpsichordists will prefer. But a very good case can be made for back 8' ahead of front 8' in that scenario as well, from the point of view that the back 8' is the principal rank (as in the double manual reasoning above).

In any case, bottom line is that there is no hard and fast rule, but there must be staggering, and if it is refined, that will make the action feel MUCH better. Touching up staggering is a big part of what I do for my more discerning customers (not that I have many, but they are quite demanding).

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-21-2013 00:16
From: David Doremus
Subject: Solving Burton Problems

Fred's right about dampers, I was writing while waiting for my 11 yr olds basketball game to start and wasn't thorough. Flush cutters are good, I used razor blades and toenail clippers for a long time before trying the nippers. I cut 4' dampers after they are in place but that's purely habit. I will rough in the height of the quill under the string by setting samples in the instrument and then just turning endpins with them all lined up in order on a jack tray. Stagger order is the subject of some debate, Dowd describes a Blanchet that seems to have plucked lower 8', upper 8', 4'. I would put the back (more flexible, usually lower manual) 8' before the one close to the nut, as that one, being stiffer and brighter naturally, will be voiced a little lighter to blend in. 4' first, last or in between will be dictated by taste and also by what the length of your jack tells you. Sorry if this is confused or info overload, hope it helps!


---Dave


On Mar 20, 2013, at 8:47 PM, Fred Sturm wrote:

>
> I'll just add to David's post that I insert quills, ghost them (a rank at a> time), then install dampers.

Fred, I think we have the equivalent set of harpsichord customers (as Joe G would say. ---d On Mar 21, 2013, at 11:23 AM, Fred Sturm wrote: > > a big part of what I do for my more > discerning customers (not that I have many, but they are quite demanding).> >

------------------------------------------- Gregory Hamilton Music Director, Faculty Holy Trinity Seminary Irving Tx 832-545-0900 -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 03-04-2013 14:59 From: Gregory Hamilton Subject: Solving Burton Problems Ok folks, You have been of real help on this board, so I have some questions. I just aquired (after many years of wanting to get a harpsichord) a Burton Instrument ca. 1985. The intrument structurally is pretty sound, - don't see any problems, except two pretty small cracks in the top of the soundbord - the instrument has some potential - I have it tuned and some of the notes that I have voiced show that it could be a resonant instrument.I got the instrument for cheap, knowing it would need a lot of work, it sat in a church for 15 years and was neglected. The instrument is one man, 8,8,4, leather buff. There are about 30 plectra broken off, so I know I will need to replace and voice these, I know the particular difficulty in the Burtons, I have ordered new Hubbard toungues to replace the Burton toungues. So that's a given...I can do basic quilling and voicing. But here'a another problem: I can't seem to get the instrument to sound consistent. The problem seems to be that when I move the register I want into playing position, it seems spongy and does not stay there, or it is in a slightly different place depending on how hard I jam the register on or off. This creates havoc with the voicing, since it never seems to be in excactly the same place. When I shove the register on, it will have a little 'bounce back' so it does not stay where it was when I adjusted it. And, the short 8 register won't move, however it WILL move when I move it manually without using the brass stop guide, but the brass stop guide won't move the register by itself. The screw connecting it just moves back and forth, not moving the register. The screw is stripped, where it goes into the register, but does that matter? Can I replace the screw with a larger diameter one? I don't want to strip the register further. It is possible as well, that it looks like moving one register also moves another, and they somewhat stick together. The register guides are metal. I have fooled around with the capitstam at the ends of the registers, but I can't get it right. I can adjust it so that it is ok, then I move the register on and off and is does not return to the same place. ARGG. However, combined with this, it does seem (only based on other instruments I have worked on,) is that MOST of the quilling seems just too short and stubby, and maybe this is also adding to the problem, that there is less tolerance to work with, with a too-short quill in general would decrease amount of tolerance avaliable in the voicing. Does this make sense? (I will post pics later of the quilling) Any ideas on how to proceed? Thanks in any case! ------------------------------------------- Gregory Hamilton Music Director, Faculty Holy Trinity Seminary Irving Tx 832-545-0900 -------------------------------------------

Israel, I'm right with Fred on this, if the jack is resting on the key you are asking for trouble with dampers and transposition. I use the exact same felt and have for years with no problems. Do they still sell it? When they wear out you replace them, it's not that big a deal. That's how Dowd and the Wolfs did it in the late 80's and I've never had a reason to change my approach. Humidity changes also mean regular attention to staggering and, sometimes, to overlap. Strings will move with the seasons. That's why I like to have a capstan adjustment at the ends of the slides. Also it lets you add a bit more bite when Igor Kipnis tells you the 4' isnt loud enough an hour before a concert :) --Dave On 3/22/13 10:20 AM, Fred Sturm wrote: > Yes, it is true that if the damper felt is "somewhat flimsy" you need to be > certain to have the balance between slight support of the back of the key > felt and the positive pressure of the felt on the string. This makes for a > set up that is very much humidity sensitive, so there will be ringing > dampers when it dries out and the nut shrinks, lowering the string level. > Been there many times.

Ok, I am making progress, and I appreciate the input!

I have all the jacks in for the front 8' and am attempting to voice. 4' is all requilled.
Here'a a problem I am having:
 Some of the jacks return too slowly. It's not nessecarily a 'hanger' - you can see that when a quill hangs on the string. This is more
like the jack after plucking is going down in slow motion, so when you want a rapid repluck, the jack is still in the air.
I suspect that this has to be some sort of friction or rubbing. I am trying: A. smooth the sided of the jack where it goes through the top guide and at the end where it goes through the bottom guide B: file the top register slot - I just got a little file. Another problem could be that some of the jacks look very slightly bent - the instrument was probably stored for 15 years with stops on, so it may have somewhat bent the jacks. Does this make sense - what other issues culd be causing the jack to float down. (the dampers are raised off - I thought I woulod deal with thaty seperately.

Any ideas are appreciated!!

Thanks!!

-------------------------------------------
Gregory Hamilton
Music Director, Faculty
Holy Trinity Seminary
Irving Tx
832-545-0900
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-22-2013 12:43
From: David Doremus
Subject: Solving Burton Problems

Israel, I'm right with Fred on this, if the jack is resting on the key
you are asking for trouble with dampers and transposition. I use the
exact same felt and have for years with no problems. Do they still sell
it? When they wear out you replace them, it's not that big a deal.
That's how Dowd and the Wolfs did it in the late 80's and I've never had
a reason to change my approach. Humidity changes also mean regular
attention to staggering and, sometimes, to overlap. Strings will move
with the seasons. That's why I like to have a capstan adjustment at the
ends of the slides. Also it lets you add a bit more bite when Igor
Kipnis tells you the 4' isnt loud enough an hour before a concert :)

--Dave



On 3/22/13 10:20 AM, Fred Sturm wrote:
> Yes, it is true that if the damper felt is "somewhat flimsy" you need to be
> certain to have the balance between slight support of the back of the key
> felt and the positive pressure of the felt on the string. This makes for a
> set up that is very much humidity sensitive, so there will be ringing
> dampers when it dries out and the nut shrinks, lowering the string level.
> Been there many times.

Make sure the keys are free and properly weighted first. That may seem obvious but a little friction here can make a bug difference in return speed. Be very careful opening up the slots or thinning jacks, it's hard to recover if you make a mistake. A sharp cabinet scraper is perfect for breaking the edges of plastic jacks and for slightly thinning the jack exactly where it passes through the slide/guide. A smooth surface is essential. Warpage can be a problem, I have seen that with Zuckerman jacks which are relatively thin. I don't have an answer to it other than mild heat and clamping straight. Sometimes works well, sometimes not. ---Dave On Mar 24, 2013, at 8:26 PM, Gregory Hamilton wrote: > > Ok, I am making progress, and I appreciate the input! > > I have all the jacks in for the front 8' and am attempting to voice. 4' is> all requilled. > Here'a a problem I am having: > Some of the jacks return too slowly.

You are doing great!  Naturally check for things going on with friction in the keyboard.  Warped keys impinging, etc., etc. 

Burton jacks are 'plastic' as I recall, and as such are indeed subject to warping.

Heat up some sand, plunge in the offending jack for a bit until it is pliable...flatten it carefully...clamp to something flat if necessary. Tada! I've had consistent luck with this with many brands of plastic jacks. This is essentially what they do when they adjust the arms of glasses, btw.  that said...the latest batches of Zuckermann replacement jacks I'ver received are thinner and poorer quality, and will probably warp faster. 

Be careful not to take too much off the jack sides or you'll get unreliable plucks from too much movement in the slot. Do make sure the slots are clean, but don't make them bigger either. I use a sharp German wood worker's knife to carefully slick over any irregularities. Much nicer in the hand than a chisel for the movement required imho. 



AA



-------------------------------------------
Anne Acker
Anne Acker Early Keyboards
912-704-3048
a.acker@comcast.net

-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-24-2013 22:46
From: David Doremus
Subject: Solving Burton Problems

Make sure the keys are free and properly weighted first. That may seem obvious but a little friction here can make a bug difference in return speed. Be very careful opening up the slots or thinning jacks, it's hard to recover if you make a mistake. A sharp cabinet scraper is perfect for breaking the edges of plastic jacks and for slightly thinning the jack exactly where it passes through the slide/guide. A smooth surface is essential. Warpage can be a problem, I have seen that with Zuckerman jacks which are relatively thin. I don't have an answer to it other than mild heat and clamping straight. Sometimes works well, sometimes not.


---Dave


On Mar 24, 2013, at 8:26 PM, Gregory Hamilton wrote:

>
> Ok, I am making progress, and I appreciate the input!
>
> I have all the jacks in for the front 8' and am attempting to voice. 4' is> all requilled.
> Here'a a problem I am having:
> Some of the jacks return too slowly.

Hi Anne, the sand tip is new to me and sounds like a good one. How do you do it? Heat a small bucket? -- Dave On 3/25/13 8:32 AM, Anne Acker wrote: > > Heat up some sand, plunge in the offending jack for a bit until it is > pliable...flatten it carefully...clamp to something flat if necessary. Tada! > I've had consistent luck with this with many brands of plastic jacks. This > is essentially what they do when they adjust the arms of glasses, btw. that > said...the latest batches of Zuckermann replacement jacks I'ver received are > thinner and poorer quality, and will probably warp faster. > > > >

An optometrist uses glass beads. If you have a good relationship with yours, maybe he'll let you use them briefly or supply you with the beads.

-------------------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Thanks Jon, just spent some interesting minutes exploring frame warmers. The beads are not expensive and a hot plate should do fine, although as often as I'd need it my trusty hair dryer is still serviceable. ---Dave On Mar 25, 2013, at 11:31 AM, Jon Page wrote: > > An optometrist uses glass beads. If you have a good relationship with yours, > maybe he'll let you use them briefly or supply you with the beads. > >

Ok, big day, all tounging and qilling is done on three ranks.
The two 8's are in, and playing well, I have spent the last 2 days voicing, and the instrument sounds very nice! I was pleasantly surprised,
in that it is quite resonant. French music sounds great, very rich, Bach less interesting, but works. I wonder if that might be due to the instruments vague Flemish shape? I spent all day Wed. just playing the instrument and tweaking, tweaking voicing... What a magical instrument the harpsichord is!

Now I am putting in the 4'. The problem is, that due to soundboard movement (I think?) the 4' jacks have to be so low for the qills to get under the string...I am having to take off the end of the jacks, which I hate to do. The 4' rank is practically at least 1/8 or inch or more lower than both 8' s. This seems really strange.

The question is, the 8' don't seem too low at all, but the 4' is way too low. Is this due to sounboard movement in just that part of the soundboard? I have looked at the 4' bridge, and it really looks ok, as well as the 8', I don't see any movement.I am beginning to think it was a building flaw, perhaps the 4' bridge was made too low? I have already seen about 6 bridge pins that are out of place, will need to change those with the great toothpick manuver. Stands to reason that the builder could make an error on the size of the bridge? I am reluctant to do the pgo stick manuver, as the 2 8's are playing so well.

Opinions welcome... Anyway, thanks again to all of you!!  Video coming soon!

GH





-------------------------------------------
Gregory Hamilton
Music Director, Faculty
Holy Trinity Seminary
Irving Tx
832-545-0900
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-04-2013 14:59
From: Gregory Hamilton
Subject: Solving Burton Problems


Ok folks, You have been of real help on this board, so I have some questions.

I just aquired (after many years of wanting to get a harpsichord) a Burton Instrument ca. 1985. The intrument structurally is pretty sound, - don't see any problems, except two pretty small cracks in the top of the soundbord - the instrument has some potential - I have it tuned and some of the notes that I have voiced show that it could be a resonant instrument.I got the instrument for cheap, knowing it would need a lot of work, it sat in a church for 15 years and was neglected.
 The instrument is one man, 8,8,4, leather buff.

There are about 30 plectra broken off, so I know I will need to replace and voice these, I know the particular difficulty in the Burtons, I have ordered new Hubbard toungues to replace the Burton toungues. So that's a given...I can do basic quilling and voicing.

But here'a another problem: I can't seem to get the instrument to sound consistent. The problem seems to be that when I move the register I want into playing position, it seems spongy and does not stay there, or it is in a slightly different place depending on how hard I jam the register on or off. This creates havoc with the voicing, since it never seems to be in excactly the same place. When I shove the register on, it will have a little 'bounce back' so it does not stay where it was when I adjusted it.

And, the short 8 register won't move, however it WILL move when I move it manually without using the brass stop guide, but the brass stop guide won't move the register by itself. The screw connecting it just moves back and forth, not moving the register.  The screw is stripped, where it goes into the register, but does that matter? 
Can I replace the screw with a larger diameter one? I don't want to strip the register further.

It is possible as well, that it  looks like moving one register also moves another, and they somewhat stick together.
The register guides are metal. I have fooled around with the capitstam at the ends of the registers, but I can't get it right. I can adjust it so that it is ok, then I move the register on and off and is does not return to the same place. ARGG.

However, combined with this, it does seem (only based on other instruments I have worked on,) is that MOST of the quilling seems just too short and stubby, and maybe this is also adding to the problem, that there is less tolerance to work with, with a too-short quill in general would decrease amount of tolerance avaliable in the voicing. Does this make sense? (I will post pics later of the quilling)

Any ideas on how to proceed? Thanks in any case!
-------------------------------------------
Gregory Hamilton
Music Director, Faculty
Holy Trinity Seminary
Irving Tx
832-545-0900
-------------------------------------------

I'm not sure I understand the problem. Length of jack is very negotiable. You simply cut it to fit the distance between the back of the key and the string (ie, to place the plectrum under the string). So cutting jacks is standard procedure, and the bottom adjusting screws that Burton jacks have mean that you have more of a fudge factor.

It is also normal for the tops of the 4' jacks to be lower than those of the 8' jacks, usually more than 1/8", unless a separate design is made or the tops of the jacks are trimmed. I have seen both, and have also seen designs where the felt of the jack rail has different levels for each rank. None of these designs is "wrong."

As for the notion that the 4' bridge is too low, that seems pretty farfetched. It's a kit, and the bridges were provided. The 4' bridge and nut have to be lower than the 8' ones so the strings of the 8' don't touch the 4' bridge and nut. In some extreme designs, like Sabathil, the difference is enormous, maybe a full inch. (Sabathil had a tongue adjustment screw for the 4' jacks that stuck way up in the air, to act as the top of the jack as it hit the jack rail).

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-29-2013 15:13
From: Gregory Hamilton
Subject: Solving Burton Problems

Ok, big day, all tounging and qilling is done on three ranks.
The two 8's are in, and playing well, I have spent the last 2 days voicing, and the instrument sounds very nice! I was pleasantly surprised,
in that it is quite resonant. French music sounds great, very rich, Bach less interesting, but works. I wonder if that might be due to the instruments vague Flemish shape? I spent all day Wed. just playing the instrument and tweaking, tweaking voicing... What a magical instrument the harpsichord is!

Now I am putting in the 4'. The problem is, that due to soundboard movement (I think?) the 4' jacks have to be so low for the qills to get under the string...I am having to take off the end of the jacks, which I hate to do. The 4' rank is practically at least 1/8 or inch or more lower than both 8' s. This seems really strange.

The question is, the 8' don't seem too low at all, but the 4' is way too low. Is this due to sounboard movement in just that part of the soundboard? I have looked at the 4' bridge, and it really looks ok, as well as the 8', I don't see any movement.I am beginning to think it was a building flaw, perhaps the 4' bridge was made too low? I have already seen about 6 bridge pins that are out of place, will need to change those with the great toothpick manuver. Stands to reason that the builder could make an error on the size of the bridge? I am reluctant to do the pgo stick manuver, as the 2 8's are playing so well.

Opinions welcome... Anyway, thanks again to all of you!!  Video coming soon!

GH





-------------------------------------------
Gregory Hamilton
Music Director, Faculty
Holy Trinity Seminary
Irving Tx
832-545-0900
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 03-04-2013 14:59
From: Gregory Hamilton
Subject: Solving Burton Problems


Ok folks, You have been of real help on this board, so I have some questions.

I just aquired (after many years of wanting to get a harpsichord) a Burton Instrument ca. 1985. The intrument structurally is pretty sound, - don't see any problems, except two pretty small cracks in the top of the soundbord - the instrument has some potential - I have it tuned and some of the notes that I have voiced show that it could be a resonant instrument.I got the instrument for cheap, knowing it would need a lot of work, it sat in a church for 15 years and was neglected.
 The instrument is one man, 8,8,4, leather buff.

There are about 30 plectra broken off, so I know I will need to replace and voice these, I know the particular difficulty in the Burtons, I have ordered new Hubbard toungues to replace the Burton toungues. So that's a given...I can do basic quilling and voicing.

But here'a another problem: I can't seem to get the instrument to sound consistent. The problem seems to be that when I move the register I want into playing position, it seems spongy and does not stay there, or it is in a slightly different place depending on how hard I jam the register on or off. This creates havoc with the voicing, since it never seems to be in excactly the same place. When I shove the register on, it will have a little 'bounce back' so it does not stay where it was when I adjusted it.

And, the short 8 register won't move, however it WILL move when I move it manually without using the brass stop guide, but the brass stop guide won't move the register by itself. The screw connecting it just moves back and forth, not moving the register.  The screw is stripped, where it goes into the register, but does that matter? 
Can I replace the screw with a larger diameter one? I don't want to strip the register further.

It is possible as well, that it  looks like moving one register also moves another, and they somewhat stick together.
The register guides are metal. I have fooled around with the capitstam at the ends of the registers, but I can't get it right. I can adjust it so that it is ok, then I move the register on and off and is does not return to the same place. ARGG.

However, combined with this, it does seem (only based on other instruments I have worked on,) is that MOST of the quilling seems just too short and stubby, and maybe this is also adding to the problem, that there is less tolerance to work with, with a too-short quill in general would decrease amount of tolerance avaliable in the voicing. Does this make sense? (I will post pics later of the quilling)

Any ideas on how to proceed? Thanks in any case!
-------------------------------------------
Gregory Hamilton
Music Director, Faculty
Holy Trinity Seminary
Irving Tx
832-545-0900
-------------------------------------------