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Upright pinblck

  • 1.  Upright pinblck

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-12-2012 22:05
    I have a simple question... How can you tell if ther is damage to an upright pin block before trying to tune the piano? Thanks! ------------------------------------------- Michael Jurewicz Pompton Plains NJ 973-800-9066 -------------------------------------------


  • 2.  RE:Upright pinblck

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-12-2012 23:34


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    [Thomas] [Driscoll] [RPT]
    [Piano Tuner -Technician]
    Tom Driscoll Piano Service]
    [Marlboro] [Ma]
    508-485-0369]

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    First I'll ask why would you want to know this ?  

    OK ,a few things:

     Whilst playing you notice some or many strings have slipped to the point where the scale is not chromatic.

    A previous tuner has replaced some -many tuning pins with much larger pins . Easy to spot usually amongst the originals

    Chalk marks on some-many tuning pins.
    ]
    Some - many pins that have been driven in with coils jammed against the plate

    Black gunk around the base of the pin on the plate or bushings from glycol based tuning pin treatments gone wild.


    Tom d.





  • 3.  RE:Upright pinblck

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-13-2012 09:13
    I'm really just curious because I'm a beginner tuner/ technician and am finally out in the field, starting my own business. So I'd really like to know how to spot something like this before trying to tune the piano. Thanks ------------------------------------------- Michael Jurewicz Pompton Plains NJ 973-800-9066 -------------------------------------------


  • 4.  RE: Upright pinblck

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-13-2012 09:48
    Hi, Michael: Here's what I do when I want to test a pin block. I'll look for areas of the block that are the narrowest, such as the lowest tenor notes near the break. There's less wood there to resist cracking and delaminating. Test the pins in this area to see how tight they are. Do several areas of the piano, just one or two pins, to get a general idea how tight things are. Try to learn where the piano was during its life. If it lived in Arizona, in a west-facing bay window, or other very dry condition, expect the pins to be on the loose side. See if there are markings like arrows, chalk marks or other indication that these pins were loose. As has been mentioned, play every note and see if all of a sudden some notes are particularly nasty. Then just test them to see if they're loose. Even if the piano has loose pins, there are ways to remedy them, as has been discussed on this list many times. If the pins are loose, you can use thin CA (superglue) dripped around the loose pins and they will become tunable again. Beware that you must find the proper water-thin variety or this trick may not work. You'll find this glue in hobby shops and better wood working stores, not at Home D. Other methods of dealing with loose pins include tapping the pins in further to bite into new wood, using oversize pins, removing the pin and inserting thin veneer or sandpaper in the hole and replacing the pin, and some other questionable tricks like using metal sleeves or inserts (not recommended). On some occasions, I've had to remove the pin and swab the hole with CA glue because I didn't have the thin variety (didn't soak in). Best of luck with your new business. Paul McCloud San Diego ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Jurewicz" To: "Paul McCloud" Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2012 6:11:54 AM Subject: [PTG Pianotech]: RE:Upright pinblck I'm really just curious because I'm a beginner tuner/ technician and am finally out in the field, starting my own business. So I'd really like to know how to spot something like this before trying to tune the piano. Thanks ------------------------------------------- Michael Jurewicz Pompton Plains NJ 973-800-9066 -------------------------------------------


  • 5.  RE: Upright pinblck

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-13-2012 10:03
    You can't really. You can look to see if the block is separating from the back. In all these years of tuning pianos it's rare that I've found a piano that had pinblock failure. Maybe that's because of what I'm turning down but I just don't see it. Maybe a few pins loose here and there but they have to be pretty loose not to hold. I wouldn't worry about this particular thing. If you turn the pin and the lever just gets pulled back as you let go then deal with it. Otherwise, onward! David Love www.davidlovepianos.com -----Original Message----- From: Michael Jurewicz [mailto:noreply@egroups.ptg.org] Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2012 6:12 AM To: David Love Subject: [PTG Pianotech]: RE:Upright pinblck I'm really just curious because I'm a beginner tuner/ technician and am finally out in the field, starting my own business. So I'd really like to know how to spot something like this before trying to tune the piano. Thanks ------------------------------------------- Michael Jurewicz Pompton Plains NJ 973-800-9066 -------------------------------------------


  • 6.  RE:Upright pinblck

    Posted 10-13-2012 15:49
    Here's to curiosity, Michael.

    You have received numerous concepts to theoretically determine when to not enter in. Well, fine and well for that.

    You are asking the age old question: Save me from making errors in judgement.

    If you aren't willing to find out if a piano can be tuned solely based on what someone else says, then you really aren't ready to be declaring to the world that you are a piano tuner.

    Bite the bullet and pay the dues, man. That's what the rest of the world does.

    If you are the real deal with this enterprise of tuning pianos, folks will know, but only if you are willing to take the risk to stand behind what you attempt to do, what you attempt to share of you professed abilities with a customer, and what you have learned as a consequence for trying.

    I wouldn't dare to recall the failed attempts of my efforts to produce what I thought was in the customer's best interests. It would be too disheartening for my soul to bear. Yet, I perserve, even unto this day.

    What I have really learned is what not to do anymore. That is the greatest lesson ever for me.

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    tune-repair@allegiance.tv
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    From: Michael Jurewicz
    ... I'm really just curious because I'm a beginner tuner/ technician and am finally out in the field, starting my own business. So I'd really like to know how to spot something like this before trying to tune the piano.


  • 7.  RE: Upright pinblck

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-13-2012 02:03
    Unless you have areas where the block is split and pins are just letting go (pitch dropping radically), you can't. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com -----Original Message----- From: Michael Jurewicz [mailto:noreply@egroups.ptg.org] Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 7:05 PM To: David Love Subject: [PTG Pianotech]: Upright pinblck I have a simple question... How can you tell if ther is damage to an upright pin block before trying to tune the piano? Thanks! ------------------------------------------- Michael Jurewicz Pompton Plains NJ 973-800-9066 -------------------------------------------


  • 8.  RE:Upright pinblck

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-13-2012 10:24
    I've generally found that with old and unknown (and flat) pianos, it's more likely that I'll encounter strings that break as they're brought up.  So I try to be careful, give them a little nudge down before bringing them up.  When I exercise this caution, I almost never break a string.  But otherwise, it's hard to see if there's damage to a pinblock without actually trying it out.

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    Zeno Wood
    Brooklyn, NY
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  • 9.  Upright pinblck

    Posted 10-13-2012 10:38
    On 10/13/2012 8:11 AM, Michael Jurewicz wrote: > > > I'm really just curious because I'm a beginner tuner/ technician and > am finally out in the field, starting my own business. So I'd really > like to know how to spot something like this before trying to tune > the piano. Thanks You can't really tell by looking, but Tom's suggestions are good. Play a chromatic run from one end to the other. Listen. Put a tuning lever on a few of the worst out of tune strings to feel the pin. If it's too loose to hold, or just barely holds, don't try to tune it. Either offer an attempted fix, or decline. You're in the land of junk, and there aren't many dependable rules except caution. Don't promise a miracle fix when you're guessing. In my experience, most folks tend to appreciate honest assessment, good information and caution, over a whiz bang dog and pony show - at least here in the middle of the country. Bubba say "Good judgement come from experience, and experience come from bad judgement". You'll screw up, guaranteed, but try to keep the debris field as small as possible and *try* to avoid doing the same dumb things repeatedly. Ron N


  • 10.  RE:Upright pinblck

    Posted 10-13-2012 11:25
    Loose pins are one thing, and can usually be improved.
    A crack in the block is not so amenable to CA or oversized pins.
    Here's the test:
    Play chromatically across the piano. If you come to a section of out-of-tune notes, pluck each string to identify which string is out-of-tune.
    Chalk the slipped tuning pin. Do this for several notes and look at the chalked pins. If they are points on a line, you have located a crack in the block below. 

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    Ed Sutton
    Editor
    Piano Technicians Journal
    ed440@me.com
    704-536-7926

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  • 11.  RE:Upright pinblck

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-13-2012 12:21
    I came across an old piano where the action had been rebuilt by somebody else. (It was a good job actually)
    Training an apprentice at the time (about 15 years ago), I told to him that for some reason, the piano was 50 cents flat. (That could not be!)
    No problem, I pitch raised the piano and at the end of it, guess what? The piano was 50 cents flat.
    I suspect the other tech simply rebuilt the action and was unaware of any structural problems.

    I immediately brought in the customer and informed her that I suspected the pin block had structural issues.

    I loosened the tension (in front of the customer - who already agreed), popped off the top lid, and put in 3 business cards in the slot (crack).

    The customer couldn't believe it and asked how on earth I knew that was happening!

    BTW, the tuning pins were all tight - there was no sign of single tuning pin hole problems.

    Recently, I attempted to tune a small upright (15 years old) that was 40 cents down in pitch. After explaining to the customer the pitch raise procedure, she carefully watched as I brought the piano up to pitch. At the end, SHE TOLD ME --- "Oh my, the piano is now more flat - 45 cents - than when you started!"

    Paul.
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    Paul Brown
    Vancouver BC
    604-324-7013
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  • 12.  RE:Upright pinblck

    Posted 10-13-2012 15:18
    I meant to mention this and forgot.

    As Paul describes, there is also the issue of pinblock separating from the backposts in vertical pianos.

    If you can see the top edge of the block, this is easy to see before you try to tune.

    Repairs are also relatively easy: lower tension, use clamps to pull together the structure, drill holes through the plate screw holes and install through bolts.

    Various folks have their particular niceties. Search the discussions or consult an experienced technician who does good work.

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    Ed Sutton
    Editor
    Piano Technicians Journal
    ed440@me.com
    704-536-7926

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