Pianotech

Anyone have experience upgrading a Brambach square knuckle action?  I have a customer that wants to upgrade his action with new parts.  Something that's going to give him better touch and less noise.  With changing those action parts, I'm mainly concerned about maintaining the ratio and touch.  Before I start taking any measurements and looking at parts, I wanted to get some opinions.

-------------------------------------------
Dave Foster
Foster Piano Technology
Waterford MI
248-431-8804
-------------------------------------------

Is the rest of the piano in good enough shape to justify spending $$$$.00 on the action?

I'd be advising my customer to buy a new piano before that kind of upgrade on a Brambach. I should hasten to say that the few I've seen around here have all been in varying stages of falling apart. Mostly loose tuning pins/bad blocks. I've never seen one in good condition...

-------------------------------------------
John Formsma, RPT
Blue Mountain MS


-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-04-2012 16:23
From: Dave Foster
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

Anyone have experience upgrading a Brambach square knuckle action?  I have a customer that wants to upgrade his action with new parts.  Something that's going to give him better touch and less noise.  With changing those action parts, I'm mainly concerned about maintaining the ratio and touch.  Before I start taking any measurements and looking at parts, I wanted to get some opinions.

-------------------------------------------
Dave Foster
Foster Piano Technology
Waterford MI
248-431-8804
-------------------------------------------

I'm with that opinion.  run! 
Of course anything can be rebuilt!  I wouldn't do it for any price... Just my take on it.

-------------------------------------------
Paul T. Williams RPT
Piano Technician
University of Nebraska
Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
pwilliams4@unl.edu
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-04-2012 16:32
From: John Formsma
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

Is the rest of the piano in good enough shape to justify spending $$$$.00 on the action?

I'd be advising my customer to buy a new piano before that kind of upgrade on a Brambach. I should hasten to say that the few I've seen around here have all been in varying stages of falling apart. Mostly loose tuning pins/bad blocks. I've never seen one in good condition...

-------------------------------------------
John Formsma, RPT
Blue Mountain MS


-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-04-2012 16:23
From: Dave Foster
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

Anyone have experience upgrading a Brambach square knuckle action?  I have a customer that wants to upgrade his action with new parts.  Something that's going to give him better touch and less noise.  With changing those action parts, I'm mainly concerned about maintaining the ratio and touch.  Before I start taking any measurements and looking at parts, I wanted to get some opinions.

-------------------------------------------
Dave Foster
Foster Piano Technology
Waterford MI
248-431-8804
-------------------------------------------

I have successfully replaced the action on a Kranich & Bach grand that had the old style action for which parts are unavailable - where the hammer flange "fork" is on the hammer flange rail side rather than on the hammer shank side. It wasn't easy - I had to use new action brackets, make new action rails and calculate all kinds of ratios and measurements to adapt new off-the-shelf repetitions and hammer shanks & flanges - but it was well worth the effort. The action plays beautifully now and I will never again have to worry about availability of parts.

As a starting point I did several things:

A. Take accurate measurenets of all original action spreads

B. Take digital side-view photographs of the original action - don't forget to place a ruler prominently in the frame - which I then printed actual size in order to lay out my new replacement parts to determine placement.

I forget exactly which replacement repetitions and hammer flanges I used but if you have samples of the many kinds available, you should have no trouble in finding a suitable replacement.

Use maple for the action rails cut to proper size and then clamped beneath the originals to drill through for proper screw hole alignment.

It was time-consuming and I spent mucho time just staring at my digital pictures and moving things around. But it was actually fun and quite rewarding. I'm 100% glad that I did it and wouldn't hesitate to try it again.

-------------------------------------------
Donn Young, RPT
Accurate Piano Service
Devon, PA
610-964-8181
www.fixpianos.com
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-04-2012 16:23
From: Dave Foster
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

Anyone have experience upgrading a Brambach square knuckle action?  I have a customer that wants to upgrade his action with new parts.  Something that's going to give him better touch and less noise.  With changing those action parts, I'm mainly concerned about maintaining the ratio and touch.  Before I start taking any measurements and looking at parts, I wanted to get some opinions.

-------------------------------------------
Dave Foster
Foster Piano Technology
Waterford MI
248-431-8804
-------------------------------------------

The piano is very good condition.  It's been rebuild before.  New pinblock, strings, and plate refinished.  The Oak cabinet is very nice, and this guy has spent a lot of money to restore it.  It's a family heirloom.  So, now he's looking to rebuild the action because the PianoDisc player plays well, but the action is horrible.  I'm not about to tell this guy "No, you've spent $10,000 on the wrong piano".  It obviously means something to him.  I've replaced actions before, just not one of these Brambach type actions.  Just wondering how much work it will be, and what to expect. 
Donn, I've never considered having to replace the hammer rail.  That is something I'll have to look at.  The action will be in my shop tomorrow and I'll get a better look at it.  I'll keep you informed.  I might even blog about it.

-------------------------------------------
Dave Foster
Foster Piano Technology
Waterford MI
248-431-8804
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-04-2012 16:52
From: Donn Young
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

I have successfully replaced the action on a Kranich & Bach grand that had the old style action for which parts are unavailable - where the hammer flange "fork" is on the hammer flange rail side rather than on the hammer shank side. It wasn't easy - I had to use new action brackets, make new action rails and calculate all kinds of ratios and measurements to adapt new off-the-shelf repetitions and hammer shanks & flanges - but it was well worth the effort. The action plays beautifully now and I will never again have to worry about availability of parts.

As a starting point I did several things:

A. Take accurate measurenets of all original action spreads

B. Take digital side-view photographs of the original action - don't forget to place a ruler prominently in the frame - which I then printed actual size in order to lay out my new replacement parts to determine placement.

I forget exactly which replacement repetitions and hammer flanges I used but if you have samples of the many kinds available, you should have no trouble in finding a suitable replacement.

Use maple for the action rails cut to proper size and then clamped beneath the originals to drill through for proper screw hole alignment.

It was time-consuming and I spent mucho time just staring at my digital pictures and moving things around. But it was actually fun and quite rewarding. I'm 100% glad that I did it and wouldn't hesitate to try it again.

-------------------------------------------
Donn Young, RPT
Accurate Piano Service
Devon, PA
610-964-8181
www.fixpianos.com
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-04-2012 16:23
From: Dave Foster
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

Anyone have experience upgrading a Brambach square knuckle action?  I have a customer that wants to upgrade his action with new parts.  Something that's going to give him better touch and less noise.  With changing those action parts, I'm mainly concerned about maintaining the ratio and touch.  Before I start taking any measurements and looking at parts, I wanted to get some opinions.

-------------------------------------------
Dave Foster
Foster Piano Technology
Waterford MI
248-431-8804
-------------------------------------------

Hi, Donn: I wish I could have had you make a duplicate setup, only a year ago. I had to deal with a similar piano where someone had replaced all the action parts with new modern ones. I believe they were Baldwin parts. The new parts were so massive that the keys had a boatload of jiffy weights screwed to the bottom to balance all that weight. As a result it wouldn't repeat well. I ended up moving the capstans and using split balance rail punchings to try to get the action ratio to accommodate the heavier hammers. I even used the lightest Ronson hammers available. Both action rails had been previously modified for new parts, so the original brackets were used. I consulted with Joe Garrett along the way (thanks, Joe!), and it came out fine. But, I sure wish I could have followed what you have done here. Though the piano wouldn't ordinarily have been worth the trouble, it had formerly belonged to a famous British musician and so had considerable value to the owner. The result was very satisfactory, given that the new hammers made a huge difference in the voice of the piano, and the touch was acceptable with good repetition. Paul McCloud San Diego
Original Message ----- From: "Donn Young" To: "Paul McCloud" Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2012 1:52:04 PM Subject: [PTG Pianotech]: RE:Brambach square knuckle action I have successfully replaced the action on a Kranich & Bach grand that had the old style action for which parts are unavailable - where the hammer flange "fork" is on the hammer flange rail side rather than on the hammer shank side. It wasn't easy - I had to use new action brackets, make new action rails and calculate all kinds of ratios and measurements to adapt new off-the-shelf repetitions and hammer shanks & flanges - but it was well worth the effort. The action plays beautifully now and I will never again have to worry about availability of parts. As a starting point I did several things: A. Take accurate measurenets of all original action spreads B. Take digital side-view photographs of the original action - don't forget to place a ruler prominently in the frame - which I then printed actual size in order to lay out my new replacement parts to determine placement. I forget exactly which replacement repetitions and hammer flanges I used but if you have samples of the many kinds available, you should have no trouble in finding a suitable replacement. Use maple for the action rails cut to proper size and then clamped beneath the originals to drill through for proper screw hole alignment. It was time-consuming and I spent mucho time just staring at my digital pictures and moving things around. But it was actually fun and quite rewarding. I'm 100% glad that I did it and wouldn't hesitate to try it again. ------------------------------------------- Donn Young, RPT Accurate Piano Service Devon, PA 610-964-8181 www.fixpianos.com -------------------------------------------

                                                                         

Well, I wish that I could say that the Kranich & Bach (AKA "Krunch & Bunch") belonged to a world famous musician but, alas, it belongs to me. So, in my defense, this is what happened: I had tuned the piano a couple of times, the customer was moving and it had a pretty case. Was I interested? Not really but I low-balled an offer to her and she accepted it. (Gr-r-r-r-r) I figured I could flip it fairly easily. However, <insert a big sigh here>, once I got it to my shop and got a closer look at it I discovered that - well, let's just say that it was a basket case. So, rather than cut my losses like any rational piano technician would have done, I decided to completely restore it. It DID have a pretty case after all. Bottom line: it's now the recipient of new board, block, bridges, refinishing and a (modern) action.

And so, several years later, and many attempts to sell it for at least what I've put into it, I've placed it in a local performance venue where it has been appreciated and played by talent from far and wide without complaint. Hey, it ain't a Steinway but it plays well, sounds remarkably good and it has a pretty case. And I'm getting a lot of good PR and warm fuzzies that all my work is being used and appreciated. Life is good.

-------------------------------------------
Donn Young, RPT
Accurate Piano Service
Devon, PA
610-964-8181
www.fixpianos.com
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-04-2012 21:47
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

Hi, Donn:
I wish I could have had you make a duplicate setup, only a year ago. I had to deal with a similar piano where someone had replaced all the action parts with new modern ones. I believe they were Baldwin parts. The new parts were so massive that the keys had a boatload of jiffy weights screwed to the bottom to balance all that weight. As a result it wouldn't repeat well. I ended up moving the capstans and using split balance rail punchings to try to get the action ratio to accommodate the heavier hammers. I even used the lightest Ronson hammers available. Both action rails had been previously modified for new parts, so the original brackets were used. I consulted with Joe Garrett along the way (thanks, Joe!), and it came out fine. But, I sure wish I could have followed what you have done here.
Though the piano wouldn't ordinarily have been worth the trouble, it had formerly belonged to a famous British musician and so had considerable value to the owner. The result was very satisfactory, given that the new hammers made a huge difference in the voice of the piano, and the touch was acceptable with good repetition.
Paul McCloud
San Diego


Original Message -----
From: "Donn Young"
To: "Paul McCloud"
Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2012 1:52:04 PM
Subject: [PTG Pianotech]: RE:Brambach square knuckle action


I have successfully replaced the action on a Kranich & Bach grand that had
the old style action for which parts are unavailable - where the hammer
flange "fork" is on the hammer flange rail side rather than on the hammer
shank side. It wasn't easy - I had to use new action brackets, make new
action rails and calculate all kinds of ratios and measurements to adapt new
off-the-shelf repetitions and hammer shanks & flanges - but it was well
worth the effort. The action plays beautifully now and I will never again
have to worry about availability of parts.

As a starting point I did several things:

A. Take accurate measurenets of all original action spreads

B. Take digital side-view photographs of the original action - don't forget
to place a ruler prominently in the frame - which I then printed actual size
in order to lay out my new replacement parts to determine placement.

I forget exactly which replacement repetitions and hammer flanges I used but
if you have samples of the many kinds available, you should have no trouble
in finding a suitable replacement.

Use maple for the action rails cut to proper size and then clamped beneath
the originals to drill through for proper screw hole alignment.

It was time-consuming and I spent mucho time just staring at my digital
pictures and moving things around. But it was actually fun and quite
rewarding. I'm 100% glad that I did it and wouldn't hesitate to try it again.

-------------------------------------------
Donn Young, RPT
Accurate Piano Service
Devon, PA
610-964-8181
www.fixpianos.com
-------------------------------------------

All's well that ends well! And to put it to good use, put another feather in your cap. I like it. Paul McCloud
Original Message ----- From: "Donn Young" To: "Paul McCloud" Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2012 7:23:07 PM Subject: [PTG Pianotech]: RE:Brambach square knuckle action Well, I wish that I could say that the Kranich & Bach (AKA "Krunch & Bunch") belonged to a world famous musician but, alas, it belongs to me. So, in my defense, this is what happened: I had tuned the piano a couple of times, the customer was moving and it had a pretty case. Was I interested? Not really but I low-balled an offer to her and she accepted it. (Gr-r-r-r-r) I figured I could flip it fairly easily. However, , once I got it to my shop and got a closer look at it I discovered that - well, let's just say that it was a basket case. So, rather than cut my losses like any rational piano technician would have done, I decided to completely restore it. It DID have a pretty case after all. Bottom line: it's now the recipient of new board, block, bridges, refinishing and a (modern) action. And so, several years later, and many attempts to sell it for at least what I've put into it, I've placed it in a local performance venue where it has been appreciated and played by talent from far and wide without complaint. Hey, it ain't a Steinway but it plays well, sounds remarkably good and it has a pretty case. And I'm getting a lot of good PR and warm fuzzies that all my work is being used and appreciated. Life is good. ------------------------------------------- Donn Young, RPT Accurate Piano Service Devon, PA 610-964-8181 www.fixpianos.com -------------------------------------------

Perhaps because I am just starting to get out into the field, but I have not seen this type of action which you speak of. Would anyone be able to provide an explanation or some pics so that I can gain a better understanding of the square knuckles?
Thanks

-------------------------------------------
Mike Jurewicz
Pompton Plains NJ
973-800-9066
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-04-2012 23:14
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

All's well that ends well! And to put it to good use, put another feather in your cap. I like it.
Paul McCloud


Original Message -----
From: "Donn Young"
To: "Paul McCloud"
Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2012 7:23:07 PM
Subject: [PTG Pianotech]: RE:Brambach square knuckle action




Well, I wish that I could say that the Kranich & Bach (AKA "Krunch & Bunch")
belonged to a world famous musician but, alas, it belongs to me. So, in my
defense, this is what happened: I had tuned the piano a couple of times, the
customer was moving and it had a pretty case. Was I interested? Not really
but I low-balled an offer to her and she accepted it. (Gr-r-r-r-r) I figured
I could flip it fairly easily. However, , once I got
it to my shop and got a closer look at it I discovered that - well, let's
just say that it was a basket case. So, rather than cut my losses like any
rational piano technician would have done, I decided to completely restore
it. It DID have a pretty case after all. Bottom line: it's now the recipient
of new board, block, bridges, refinishing and a (modern) action.

And so, several years later, and many attempts to sell it for at least what
I've put into it, I've placed it in a local performance venue where it has
been appreciated and played by talent from far and wide without complaint.
Hey, it ain't a Steinway but it plays well, sounds remarkably good and it
has a pretty case. And I'm getting a lot of good PR and warm fuzzies that
all my work is being used and appreciated. Life is good.

-------------------------------------------
Donn Young, RPT
Accurate Piano Service
Devon, PA
610-964-8181
www.fixpianos.com
-------------------------------------------

Excellent question, Mike.

I certainly don't know what square knuckles are.

Looking forward to an answer myself.

Thank you for asking.

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
tune-repair@allegiance.tv

Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2012 22:46
From: Mike Jurewicz
...  Would anyone be able to provide an explanation or some pics so that I can gain a better understanding of the square knuckles? ...

Square knuckles would be of the Thayer variety.

-------------------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Here are some pictures of a square knuckle and the corresponding repetition. These were from a Brambach but were common in other grands of the time as well (such as Kranich & Bach). Note that the hammer flange "fork" is on the flange rather than on the butt as in modern actions.

-------------------------------------------
Donn Young, RPT
Accurate Piano Service
Devon, PA
610-964-8181
www.fixpianos.com
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2012 22:46
From: Mike Jurewicz
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

Perhaps because I am just starting to get out into the field, but I have not seen this type of action which you speak of. Would anyone be able to provide an explanation or some pics so that I can gain a better understanding of the square knuckles?
Thanks

-------------------------------------------
Mike Jurewicz
Pompton Plains NJ
973-800-9066
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-04-2012 23:14
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

All's well that ends well! And to put it to good use, put another feather in your cap. I like it.
Paul McCloud


Original Message -----
From: "Donn Young"
To: "Paul McCloud"
Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2012 7:23:07 PM
Subject: [PTG Pianotech]: RE:Brambach square knuckle action




Well, I wish that I could say that the Kranich & Bach (AKA "Krunch & Bunch")
belonged to a world famous musician but, alas, it belongs to me. So, in my
defense, this is what happened: I had tuned the piano a couple of times, the
customer was moving and it had a pretty case. Was I interested? Not really
but I low-balled an offer to her and she accepted it. (Gr-r-r-r-r) I figured
I could flip it fairly easily. However, , once I got
it to my shop and got a closer look at it I discovered that - well, let's
just say that it was a basket case. So, rather than cut my losses like any
rational piano technician would have done, I decided to completely restore
it. It DID have a pretty case after all. Bottom line: it's now the recipient
of new board, block, bridges, refinishing and a (modern) action.

And so, several years later, and many attempts to sell it for at least what
I've put into it, I've placed it in a local performance venue where it has
been appreciated and played by talent from far and wide without complaint.
Hey, it ain't a Steinway but it plays well, sounds remarkably good and it
has a pretty case. And I'm getting a lot of good PR and warm fuzzies that
all my work is being used and appreciated. Life is good.

-------------------------------------------
Donn Young, RPT
Accurate Piano Service
Devon, PA
610-964-8181
www.fixpianos.com
-------------------------------------------

We had our monthly PTG chapter meeting last night, and another technician suggested I restore the action; new leathers, buttons, felts, etc.  Abel, I believe, does that service if I'd be unwilling to put forth the time and effort.  It's an interesting thought.  One that I might consider.  That might get rid of the majority of the action noise and provide somewhat more evenness in touch, whether heavy or not.

-------------------------------------------
Dave Foster
Foster Piano Technology
Waterford MI
248-431-8804
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-06-2012 09:17
From: Donn Young
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

Here are some pictures of a square knuckle and the corresponding repetition. These were from a Brambach but were common in other grands of the time as well (such as Kranich & Bach). Note that the hammer flange "fork" is on the flange rather than on the butt as in modern actions.

-------------------------------------------
Donn Young, RPT
Accurate Piano Service
Devon, PA
610-964-8181
www.fixpianos.com
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2012 22:46
From: Mike Jurewicz
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

Perhaps because I am just starting to get out into the field, but I have not seen this type of action which you speak of. Would anyone be able to provide an explanation or some pics so that I can gain a better understanding of the square knuckles?
Thanks

-------------------------------------------
Mike Jurewicz
Pompton Plains NJ
973-800-9066
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-04-2012 23:14
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

All's well that ends well! And to put it to good use, put another feather in your cap. I like it.
Paul McCloud


Original Message -----
From: "Donn Young"
To: "Paul McCloud"
Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2012 7:23:07 PM
Subject: [PTG Pianotech]: RE:Brambach square knuckle action




Well, I wish that I could say that the Kranich & Bach (AKA "Krunch & Bunch")
belonged to a world famous musician but, alas, it belongs to me. So, in my
defense, this is what happened: I had tuned the piano a couple of times, the
customer was moving and it had a pretty case. Was I interested? Not really
but I low-balled an offer to her and she accepted it. (Gr-r-r-r-r) I figured
I could flip it fairly easily. However, , once I got
it to my shop and got a closer look at it I discovered that - well, let's
just say that it was a basket case. So, rather than cut my losses like any
rational piano technician would have done, I decided to completely restore
it. It DID have a pretty case after all. Bottom line: it's now the recipient
of new board, block, bridges, refinishing and a (modern) action.

And so, several years later, and many attempts to sell it for at least what
I've put into it, I've placed it in a local performance venue where it has
been appreciated and played by talent from far and wide without complaint.
Hey, it ain't a Steinway but it plays well, sounds remarkably good and it
has a pretty case. And I'm getting a lot of good PR and warm fuzzies that
all my work is being used and appreciated. Life is good.

-------------------------------------------
Donn Young, RPT
Accurate Piano Service
Devon, PA
610-964-8181
www.fixpianos.com
-------------------------------------------

Thank you, Donn, for some excellent pics.

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
tune-repair@allegiance.tv

Original Message:
Sent: 11-06-2012 09:17
From: Donn Young
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

Here are some pictures of a square knuckle and the corresponding repetition. These were from a Brambach but were common in other grands of the time as well (such as Kranich & Bach). Note that the hammer flange "fork" is on the flange rather than on the butt as in modern actions.

-----------------------------------

-------------------------------------------
Ken Gerler, RPT

Gerler Piano & Organ Service
Florissant (St. Louis), MO 63033
kenneth.gerler@prodigy.net
314-355-2339
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-06-2012 09:55
From: Keith McGavern
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

Thank you, Donn, for some excellent pics.

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
tune-repair@allegiance.tv

Original Message:
Sent: 11-06-2012 09:17
From: Donn Young
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

Here are some pictures of a square knuckle and the corresponding repetition. These were from a Brambach but were common in other grands of the time as well (such as Kranich & Bach). Note that the hammer flange "fork" is on the flange rather than on the butt as in modern actions.

-----------------------------------

Oooooops !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You are so totally right, dude. The hammer/shank/flange assembly should be oriented in the other direction. Didn't think it looked right but I rushed out to my shop this morning to take some quick pictures and, well, that's what you get when you don't think things through. At least I remembered to dress before I left the house.

The backchecks are of the standard end-of-key variety.

BTW, these actions had the hammer line lift toward the strings for an una corda effect, rather than shifting the action right (or sometimes left) to facilitate softer playing. Still uses the left pedal but, as in the case of upright actions, messes with the regulation in a not-so-good way.

On my aforementioned Kranich & Bach action retrofit, I opted to retain the original hammer lift method rather than reconfigure the trapwork. I never use the una corda when I play anyway (nor should anyone IMHO.)  I have retrofitted an una corda to a Steinway XR that never had one but only because the owner requested it and I had the piano already in the shop. That was fun.....

-------------------------------------------
Donn Young, RPT
Accurate Piano Service
Devon, PA
610-964-8181
www.fixpianos.com
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-06-2012 10:15
From: Kenneth Gerler
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

Keith,

I concur the pictures are excellent. The last picture looks confusing at first. Then I realized you have the hammer shank and flange backwards of how it would be installed in the piano. Another question - does the piano have standard catchers on the back of the keys or does the Rep lever catch the knuckle?

Thanks in advance,

-------------------------------------------
Ken Gerler, RPT

Gerler Piano & Organ Service
Florissant (St. Louis), MO 63033
kenneth.gerler@prodigy.net
314-355-2339
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-06-2012 09:55
From: Keith McGavern
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

Thank you, Donn, for some excellent pics.

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
tune-repair@allegiance.tv

Original Message:
Sent: 11-06-2012 09:17
From: Donn Young
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

Here are some pictures of a square knuckle and the corresponding repetition. These were from a Brambach but were common in other grands of the time as well (such as Kranich & Bach). Note that the hammer flange "fork" is on the flange rather than on the butt as in modern actions.

-----------------------------------

Keith,

Interesting action.  What is function of the screw or spoon that appears to go through the top of the jack toward the left end (as shown) of the repetition lever?  Is it related to the absence of a drop screw?  In use, does the action repeat as well as a conventional action?

-------------------------------------------
John Alsina
Saranac Lake NY
518-891-3461
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-06-2012 10:15
From: Kenneth Gerler
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

Keith,

I concur the pictures are excellent. The last picture looks confusing at first. Then I realized you have the hammer shank and flange backwards of how it would be installed in the piano. Another question - does the piano have standard catchers on the back of the keys or does the Rep lever catch the knuckle?

Thanks in advance,

-------------------------------------------
Ken Gerler, RPT

Gerler Piano & Organ Service
Florissant (St. Louis), MO 63033
kenneth.gerler@prodigy.net
314-355-2339
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-06-2012 09:55
From: Keith McGavern
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

Thank you, Donn, for some excellent pics.

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
tune-repair@allegiance.tv

Original Message:
Sent: 11-06-2012 09:17
From: Donn Young
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

Here are some pictures of a square knuckle and the corresponding repetition. These were from a Brambach but were common in other grands of the time as well (such as Kranich & Bach). Note that the hammer flange "fork" is on the flange rather than on the butt as in modern actions.

-----------------------------------

Yes, the spoon goes thru the jack (thru a window) and acts as the drop regulation.  There is a regulating button underneath the hammer rail that is adjusted by a regulating screw that is visible thru the hammer flange fork.  It has the same double entrapment design as modern actions, and for the most part, it works the same.  It's noisy as heck, imo, and touch-weight is very inconsistent.  Up and down the keyboard, I get readings for DW from 48 - 64+, randomly.  That's after a regulation and lube.

-------------------------------------------
Dave Foster
Foster Piano Technology
Waterford MI
248-431-8804
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-07-2012 03:12
From: John Alsina
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

Keith,

Interesting action.  What is function of the screw or spoon that appears to go through the top of the jack toward the left end (as shown) of the repetition lever?  Is it related to the absence of a drop screw?  In use, does the action repeat as well as a conventional action?

-------------------------------------------
John Alsina
Saranac Lake NY
518-891-3461
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-06-2012 10:15
From: Kenneth Gerler
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

Keith,

I concur the pictures are excellent. The last picture looks confusing at first. Then I realized you have the hammer shank and flange backwards of how it would be installed in the piano. Another question - does the piano have standard catchers on the back of the keys or does the Rep lever catch the knuckle?

Thanks in advance,

-------------------------------------------
Ken Gerler, RPT

Gerler Piano & Organ Service
Florissant (St. Louis), MO 63033
kenneth.gerler@prodigy.net
314-355-2339
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-06-2012 09:55
From: Keith McGavern
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

Thank you, Donn, for some excellent pics.

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
tune-repair@allegiance.tv

Original Message:
Sent: 11-06-2012 09:17
From: Donn Young
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

Here are some pictures of a square knuckle and the corresponding repetition. These were from a Brambach but were common in other grands of the time as well (such as Kranich & Bach). Note that the hammer flange "fork" is on the flange rather than on the butt as in modern actions.

-----------------------------------

Here's a picture of the reps from the front. Indeed, the spoon projecting thru the slot in the jack is to set the amount of drop. The drop screw - which is on the rail (not in the picture) -  is accessed thru the slot in the forked hammer flange rather than with a screw located on the flange itself as in modern actions. Note also that there are 2 springs: one for the rep lever and a coiled one for the jack itself.

I keep these parts around because you just never have one when you need one....




-------------------------------------------

Donn Young, RPT
Accurate Piano Service
Devon, PA
610-964-8181
www.fixpianos.com
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-07-2012 07:35
From: Dave Foster
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

Yes, the spoon goes thru the jack (thru a window) and acts as the drop regulation.  There is a regulating button underneath the hammer rail that is adjusted by a regulating screw that is visible thru the hammer flange fork.  It has the same double entrapment design as modern actions, and for the most part, it works the same.  It's noisy as heck, imo, and touch-weight is very inconsistent.  Up and down the keyboard, I get readings for DW from 48 - 64+, randomly.  That's after a regulation and lube.

-------------------------------------------
Dave Foster
Foster Piano Technology
Waterford MI
248-431-8804
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-07-2012 03:12
From: John Alsina
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

Keith,

Interesting action.  What is function of the screw or spoon that appears to go through the top of the jack toward the left end (as shown) of the repetition lever?  Is it related to the absence of a drop screw?  In use, does the action repeat as well as a conventional action?

-------------------------------------------
John Alsina
Saranac Lake NY
518-891-3461
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-06-2012 10:15
From: Kenneth Gerler
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

Keith,

I concur the pictures are excellent. The last picture looks confusing at first. Then I realized you have the hammer shank and flange backwards of how it would be installed in the piano. Another question - does the piano have standard catchers on the back of the keys or does the Rep lever catch the knuckle?

Thanks in advance,

-------------------------------------------
Ken Gerler, RPT

Gerler Piano & Organ Service
Florissant (St. Louis), MO 63033
kenneth.gerler@prodigy.net
314-355-2339
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-06-2012 09:55
From: Keith McGavern
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

Thank you, Donn, for some excellent pics.

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
tune-repair@allegiance.tv

Original Message:
Sent: 11-06-2012 09:17
From: Donn Young
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

Here are some pictures of a square knuckle and the corresponding repetition. These were from a Brambach but were common in other grands of the time as well (such as Kranich & Bach). Note that the hammer flange "fork" is on the flange rather than on the butt as in modern actions.

-----------------------------------

On 11/7/2012 11:49 AM, Donn Young wrote: > > Here's a picture of the reps from the front. Indeed, the spoon > projecting thru the slot in the jack is to set the amount of drop. > The drop screw - which is on the rail (not in the picture) - is > accessed thru the slot in the forked hammer flange rather than with a > screw located on the flange itself as in modern actions. Note also > that there are 2 springs: one for the rep lever and a coiled one for > the jack itself. > > I keep these parts around because you just never have one when you > need one.... For the record, those of us using this lame system via email don't get embedded pictures, nor any indication at all that pictures even exist other than mention of them in the text. Not even a link. Patent# 1,528,113 has some good drawings of the action and the hammer lift rail - "pianissimo device". Ron N

Ron, I'm receiving the pictures just fine via email.  It looks great, works great, and I see everything.

-------------------------------------------
Dave Foster
Foster Piano Technology
Waterford MI
248-431-8804
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-07-2012 13:16
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

On 11/7/2012 11:49 AM, Donn Young wrote:
>
> Here's a picture of the reps from the front. Indeed, the spoon
> projecting thru the slot in the jack is to set the amount of drop.
> The drop screw - which is on the rail (not in the picture) - is
> accessed thru the slot in the forked hammer flange rather than with a
> screw located on the flange itself as in modern actions. Note also
> that there are 2 springs: one for the rep lever and a coiled one for
> the jack itself.
>
> I keep these parts around because you just never have one when you
> need one....


For the record, those of us using this lame system via email don't get
embedded pictures, nor any indication at all that pictures even exist
other than mention of them in the text. Not even a link.

Patent# 1,528,113 has some good drawings of the action and the hammer
lift rail - "pianissimo device".

Ron N

Hi, Dave: Which option are you using to access the list? Like Ron, I don't see anything either. I'm subscribed by the legacy option (email). The only way I can see image files is to log into myPTG via the image link to it at the bottom. They never appear embedded in an email from the list. There is only hint given is that any non text is removed from the email. So, if you're getting the images directly into your email, I'm curious how you are able to do this. Paul McCloud San Diego
Original Message ----- From: "Dave Foster" To: "Paul McCloud" Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2012 5:39:55 AM Subject: [PTG Pianotech]: RE:Brambach square knuckle action Ron, I'm receiving the pictures just fine via email. It looks great, works great, and I see everything. ------------------------------------------- Dave Foster Foster Piano Technology Waterford MI 248-431-8804 -------------------------------------------

Paul, I checked with Microsoft Outlook, Windows 8 Mail, and Yahoo online mail.  It works in all 3.

-------------------------------------------
Dave Foster
Foster Piano Technology
Waterford MI
248-431-8804
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-08-2012 09:13
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: Brambach square knuckle action

Hi, Dave:
Which option are you using to access the list? Like Ron, I don't see anything either. I'm subscribed by the legacy option (email). The only way I can see image files is to log into myPTG via the image link to it at the bottom. They never appear embedded in an email from the list. There is only hint given is that any non text is removed from the email. So, if you're getting the images directly into your email, I'm curious how you are able to do this.
Paul McCloud
San Diego


Original Message -----
From: "Dave Foster"
To: "Paul McCloud"
Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2012 5:39:55 AM
Subject: [PTG Pianotech]: RE:Brambach square knuckle action


Ron, I'm receiving the pictures just fine via email. It looks great, works
great, and I see everything.

-------------------------------------------
Dave Foster
Foster Piano Technology
Waterford MI
248-431-8804
-------------------------------------------

It does not work in gmail. However, the old pianotech listserve distributed a message earlier today with an imbedded (i.e. not attached) image and that came through just fine. On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 8:00 PM, Dave Foster wrote: > > Paul, I checked with Microsoft Outlook, Windows 8 Mail, and Yahoo online > mail. It works in all 3. > > ------------------------------------------- > Dave Foster > Foster Piano Technology > Waterford MI > 248-431-8804 > ------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > Original Message: > Sent: 11-08-2012 09:13 > From: Paul McCloud > Subject: Brambach square knuckle action > > Hi, Dave: > Which option are you using to access the list? Like Ron, I don't see > anything either. I'm subscribed by the legacy option (email). The only > way > I can see image files is to log into myPTG via the image link to it at the > bottom. They never appear embedded in an email from the list. There is > only hint given is that any non text is removed from the email. So, if > you're getting the images directly into your email, I'm curious how you > are > able to do this. > Paul McCloud > San Diego > >
Original Message ----- > From: "Dave Foster" > To: "Paul McCloud" > Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2012 5:39:55 AM > Subject: [PTG Pianotech]: RE:Brambach square knuckle action > > > Ron, I'm receiving the pictures just fine via email. It looks great, > works > great, and I see everything. > > ------------------------------------------- > Dave Foster > Foster Piano Technology > Waterford MI > 248-431-8804 > ------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > >

I'm using Zimbra desktop for email. Haven't tried Outlook. Will try Earthlink webmail. Paul
Original Message ----- From: "Dave Foster" To: "Paul McCloud" Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2012 6:00:26 PM Subject: [PTG Pianotech]: RE:Brambach square knuckle action Paul, I checked with Microsoft Outlook, Windows 8 Mail, and Yahoo online mail. It works in all 3. ------------------------------------------- Dave Foster Foster Piano Technology Waterford MI 248-431-8804 -------------------------------------------

On 11/6/2012 5:46 AM, Jon Page wrote: > > Square knuckles would be of the Thayer variety. Not exactly. Look up patent# 1,992,939 for the difference. Ron N

On 11/8/2012 7:39 AM, Dave Foster wrote: > > Ron, I'm receiving the pictures just fine via email. It looks great, > works great, and I see everything. I'm happy for you. I don't, it doesn't, it doesn't, and I don't. Ron N

What Ron said. On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 7:52 AM, Ronald Nossaman wrote: > > On 11/8/2012 7:39 AM, Dave Foster wrote: > > > > Ron, I'm receiving the pictures just fine via email. It looks great, > > works great, and I see everything. > > I'm happy for you. I don't, it doesn't, it doesn't, and I don't. > Ron N > >

------------------------------------------- Jeff Bishop Ashburn VA -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 11-08-2012 09:04 From: Paul Bruesch Subject: Brambach square knuckle action I'm getting images in my email. My settings are HTML, real time. They come up on my iPhone through "mail", no problem.