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Larger pins for problem pinblock

  • 1.  Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-07-2013 16:01
    I service a 7' grand from the 70's that needs a new belly and pinblock, but I'm just trying to keep it going for now.

    It was restrung at some point with 3/0 pins, and many are now too loose. My usual CA trick hasn't worked as well as usual (maybe because of higher tension). Since I've done the CA, and have hopefully pulled a few cracks together, I'm planning to go up to 4/0.

    Is this the kind of situation that those special "low-torque" pins were designed for? Only about a dozen or so are too loose for comfort, mostly in the low tenor.

    --Cy--

    -------------------------------------------
    Cy Shuster, RPT
    Albuquerque, NM
    http://www.shusterpiano.com
    http://www.facebook.com/shusterpiano

    -------------------------------------------


  • 2.  RE:Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Posted 02-07-2013 16:31

    LoTorqs were a good idea that didn't catch on, and it's not easy to find them (unless there's been a new production run in Germany}.

    Try pulling one of the loose pins, swab the hole with Gorilla brand super glue. Gorilla CA, not Gorilla polystyrene. Spray with kicker and let the glue harden well, then drive (don't turn) the original 3/0 pin back in the hole and tune. Gorilla CA is supposed to be shatter resistant, and seems to be.

    Let us know if this works.
    -------------------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    Editor
    Piano Technicians Journal
    ed440@me.com
    704-536-7926

    -------------------------------------------








  • 3.  RE:Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Posted 02-07-2013 16:38
    Super glue, gorilla glue, etc is not the proper way to solve this problem.  Piano repair 101 says that if a pin is loose, remove the pin and replace it with one of a larger and/or longer size.

    -------------------------------------------
    Roger Aycock, RPT, TEC
    Marietta, GA
    rogerspiano@bellsouth.net
    -------------------------------------------








  • 4.  RE:Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Posted 02-07-2013 20:15
    Gorilla Super Glue. Gorilla Super Glue.

    Easy to find in Home Depot and Lowes.

    Unique and different in working and bonding qualities from other super glues.

    Not brittle, more like epoxy than super glue. Excellent gap filling and strong bonding.

    Google "Gorilla Super Glue reviews" for many opinions, most very similar to mine. 

    This is a very useful glue for piano technicians. 

    -------------------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    704-536-7926

    -------------------------------------------








  • 5.  RE:Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Posted 02-07-2013 22:19

    I replaced a pinblock in a Baldwin R last year after a local tooner tried to repair loose tuning pins in the piano with some type of CA glue. 
     

    -------------------------------------------
    Roger Aycock, RPT, TEC
    Marietta, GA
    rogerspiano@bellsouth.net
    -------------------------------------------








  • 6.  RE: Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Member
    Posted 02-08-2013 14:37
    On Feb 7, 2013, at 10:18 PM, Roger Aycock wrote: I replaced a pinblock in a Baldwin R last year after a local tooner tried to repair loose tuning pins in the piano with some type of CA glue. So what's your point? Al - High Point, NC ------------------------------------------- Roger Aycock, RPT, TEC Marietta, GA rogerspiano@bellsouth.net -------------------------------------------


  • 7.  RE:Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Posted 02-08-2013 18:32
    The point is, the CA (super) glue did not work.

    -------------------------------------------
    Roger Aycock, RPT, TEC
    Marietta, GA
    rogerspiano@bellsouth.net
    -------------------------------------------








  • 8.  Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Posted 02-07-2013 16:37
    On 2/7/2013 3:01 PM, Cy Shuster wrote: > > It was restrung at some point with 3/0 pins, and many are now too > loose. My usual CA trick hasn't worked as well as usual (maybe > because of higher tension). Since I've done the CA, and have > hopefully pulled a few cracks together, I'm planning to go up to > 4/0. I wouldn't have much hope of that working. If the 3/0 are now loose and CA didn't get it, I'd say it's because the block is coming apart and 4/0 won't work any better than the 3/0 did. If another dose of CA won't get it by for a while, then what happens when repinning with 4/0 doesn't either? I know my customers don't like expensive guesses that don't work out. > Is this the kind of situation that those special "low-torque" pins > were designed for? Only about a dozen or so are too loose for > comfort, mostly in the low tenor. They're just oversized pins with 2/0 heads. I don't know if that would help or not, but I wouldn't make any promises. Ron N


  • 9.  RE:Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-07-2013 16:58
    Have you looked from underneath the action frame to see if there are splits down through the block?   Just wondering.  Perhaps the block is now too far gone.  4/0's are huge!  Hard to tune.  My "step" mother in law has a Steinway L from the 20's that somebody restrung out in Wisconsin years ago that has the same problem.  Her block is pretty well spent.  I agree with Ron on this one.  The block is probably shot and was years ago. Probably not what your customer wants to hear, but hey, nobody wants to hear the tranny is shot on the car either.  Just life...or end of life, but can still live on with new stuffs...unlike people!  sometimes! 

    Speaking of new parts: Prayers please for my brother Jim, about to go into agressive chemo and radiation after surgery from getting T-Boned on his Harley by a 16 year old girl running a stop sign back in November!  He got some new parts including cadaver vertebrae in his neck when they found the cancer in his throat. 

    Some things can be fixed, some can't.  We can only hope...Jim's got a 50/50 chance.

    Best of luck for the old gal! Tell them that life is too short and just get a  new pinblock and restringing!  Unless the rest is too far gone.  Only you will know that.

    Best to you!



    -------------------------------------------
    Paul T. Williams RPT
    Piano Technician
    University of Nebraska
    Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
    pwilliams4@unl.edu
    -------------------------------------------








  • 10.  Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Posted 02-07-2013 18:02
    On 2/7/2013 3:37 PM, Roger Aycock wrote: > > Super glue, gorilla glue, etc is not the proper way to solve this problem. > Piano repair 101 says that if a pin is loose, remove the pin and replace it > with one of a larger and/or longer size. Well, that's old school 101, but times and options do change. In this case, going up to 3/0 has already failed. Ron N


  • 11.  RE:Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Posted 02-07-2013 18:35
    I have had excellent results with epoxy.  Pull the action and cover the bottom of the hole with masking tape so the epoxy won't run out.
    fill the hole with epoxy, let it cure and redrill. If the pinblock is about gone, the epoxy may help to strengthen it in the area of the loose pins and prolong it for a while.

    -------------------------------------------
    Roger Aycock, RPT, TEC
    Marietta, GA
    rogerspiano@bellsouth.net
    -------------------------------------------








  • 12.  RE:Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-08-2013 10:19
    Well, Cy, as you already know, you're working with a failing pin block.  Repairs of various kinds can be effected however the bottom line is that you're working with a failing medium.  Time spent could be time lost.  The risk for this is high with this piano.  Possibly, after repairs are done, you'll have customer back lash to deal with consuming more of your time that you won't be paid for.  The risk for this is extremely high with this piano.  Bear in mind, the customer has already paid to have oversize tuning pins installed and that repair didn't hold very well.

    They'd have been better off buying a Beau Dahnker piano to begin with.

    If it were me, I'd aim my sights for more assured income with less chatter  ......  simply put.

    I'm rather amazed that the piano is only 40 years old and it needs a pinblock already.  Sounds like it's been through some serious climatic abuse and perhaps some other piano munching conditions as well.  A grand piano's rim holds together rather well when used as a garden planter. 

    The first method I was taught (summer of '71) was to use emery cloth. The grit was faced towards the wood of the pin block and the same sized tuning pin was then reinstalled. The emery cloth acted as a shim. Worked long enough to get paid for the tuning. I haven't seen one for a while but back in the day I think I remember that this repair was in the neighborhood of a 5 year repair on a receptive piano.

    I've seen bronze shims that have held about as long. I currently tune an old upright that the owner limps along each December. I allow extra time to replace a tuning pin or two each trip. It's been repaired by numerous techs and has an array of repairs for loose tuning pins. I simply replace the old one with a fatter one. When that doesn't hold, I use emery cloth. The owner knows the ramifications and realizes each year is a blessing.

    Long story short, the pin block is shot and the piano isn't worth having it replaced. A replacement piano just won't do for this household. Singing Christmas carols around the old piano is the tradition they're willing to hang on to. My job is to facilitate that process as best as I can for them.

    On grands, the method is a bit different due to the exposure of the underside of the pin block. It absolutely needs to be supported for this repair or else you run the risk of a major ply separation as the tuning pin is reinstalled .... not to mention the structural support that's needed anyway.

    If the customer is willing to limp their piano along, and pay you accordingly, make sure they understand the long range plan. With out the complete pin block replacement, the piano's useful days are fast coming to a close.  Good communication is paramount at this stage. 

    The epoxy repair that Roger has experience with sounds to be about the most viable repair for now, however at a two trip minimum, the expense is money spent on failing medium that could be better spent on  ...........  a babe, a beer and a brat(wurst)  .......  or other living decorations  ........     in my opinion.


    -------------------------------------------
    Larry Fisher
    Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
    Vancouver WA
    360-256-2999
    -------------------------------------------








  • 13.  RE:Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-09-2013 12:06
    Hey I forgot about one repair.  Someone used sheet rock screws right next to the tuning pin at about the 3 o'clock position as I recall.  Each tuning pin had this done to it and the screw was then broken off at the pin block.  The report I got is that all the tuning pins were tight and uniform.

    I turned this repair down on an old player upright where the plate was so close to the tuning pin. 

    With regards to CA glue, I have replaced a pin block in a piano that had been treated this way and the amount of penetration was pathetically shallow.  I saved pieces of the pin block and made saw cuts through the tuning pin holes to get a closer look at the effect.  I can submit pix if anyone wants.  There was more CA glue around the top of the pin than anywhere else.  The first lamination barely got any glue.

    -------------------------------------------
    Larry Fisher
    Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
    Vancouver WA
    360-256-2999
    -------------------------------------------








  • 14.  RE: Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-09-2013 12:37
    Hi Larry: In all fairness, we don't know exactly which variety of CA glue was used. Maybe it was an old batch, or it was the kind you buy in HDespot. I've had limited success with CA, but my experience is that the drier and looser the pin, the better the penetration of the glue, which would be expected. San Diego never gets too dry, so maybe that's part of the equation. I tried doing an imported Yamaha, with less than expected results. No matter how many times I soaked it, it didn't work. I can't remember if I removed the pin, but I think that I did, finally. Removing the pin and swabbing the hole seems to work better, though penetration at that point is a question, since swabbing doesn't leave much in there to be soaked in. YMMV. Paul McCloud San Diego


  • 15.  RE:Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Posted 02-09-2013 14:24
    I was fascinated by your "investigation" of the CA glue. As I've said in another post, I use it alot and have always had good results although I've suspected that it didn't really penetrate that far. So why does it work? (At least for me it does). I don't know, but as long as I get good results I'm going to keep on using it. 

    Here's a thought - I usually do the treatment while I'm tuning. For instance, I'll do a pitch raise and then apply it. That's assuming it will even hold pitch temporarily. The pins that are really bad I'll go ahead and treat as I'm pitch raising. The idea is that when I put on the CA glue the pin is pretty close to where it needs to be. 

    -------------------------------------------
    Scott Kerns
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Lincoln, NE
    www.thattuningguy.com
    -------------------------------------------








  • 16.  RE:Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-09-2013 15:51
    Larry,

    I would like to see the pictures of your CA pinblock cutaway if you wouldn't mind posting them.

    -------------------------------------------
    John Parham, RPT
    Hickory, NC
    828-244-2487
    johnparham@piano88.com
    -------------------------------------------








  • 17.  RE:Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-10-2013 11:08
      |   view attached
    Our chapter technical a few years ago involved complete dis-assembly of an old 1920's upright as a "Gross Anatomy" project.  I treated several tuning pins with CA before we started.  I later cut open the pinblock to check penetration and had a hard time detecting the CA.  The wood discolors around the exposed edges from oxidation.  I didn't really see a difference between the treated and untreated pin holes.  I searched at the time for a CA with some sort of dye in it.  I have seen black CA in thicker viscosities, but not the super thin.  Visually, it was very hard to tell how far the glue wicked in.

    BUT.... the treated pins were much tighter.  So it works.  Water thin CA clearly penetrates deep enough to be a benefit, and has been an inexpensive, life-saving technique for many pianos.  The looser the tuning pin bushings the better.  A thin extension tip will often slip between the pin and bushing and convey the CA directly to the pinblock.  No piano tipping required.  Pianos with tight bushings but loose blocks are the ones I've had trouble with, and tend to be newer pianos.  Pins which have been treated with the old tightening solutions but are now loose and mushy become practically welded to the block with CA.  I was fearful of shearing off a few pins when trying to break them loose after treating an old upright that had been given the old juice in the distant past.  It tunes great now.

    Another delivery method, when the top of the plate is exposed in an upright, is to pour the CA along the edge of the pinblock/plate and let it wick down to the pins.  You can see the bushings becoming wet as the CA flows down.  Works great on bass and low tenor pins which are closer to the top.  

    I have tried swabbing a few pin holes with CA and found the reinstalled pins to be jumpy.  You want the increased friction at the top of the pin, not the bottom. 

    -------------------------------------------
    Greg Graham, RPT
    Brodheadsville, PA
    -------------------------------------------






  • 18.  RE:Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-11-2013 10:14
    My CA attempts have been mostly successful over the past 20 years or so. If the plate bushings seal off  the block from penetration by CA,  I have begun drilling a small hole through the bushings. It doesn't take too long and it has helped.

    -------------------------------------------
    Robert Anderson
    Tucson AZ
    520-326-4048
    -------------------------------------------








  • 19.  RE:Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-10-2013 16:16
    Here ya go John.  Ask and thou shalt receive.

    There were bushings on this one and so most of the glue was absorbed by them  ......  I think.  Regardless, the CA glue had to get past the bushing to reach the pin block.

    I tried to see if there was penetration in the cross sectional cut at the edge of the bore.  I couldn't really detect any.  Additionally I expected to see more discoloration created by the glue as it penetrated the bore.  You guys that do pin blocks all week long, perhaps you could take a moment and apply the CA glue prior to breakdown and give us a report.  Some dye would help.

    image number xxx438 ... middle hole at the very top has what appears to be some penetration.  Personally, I'd like to see more depth for this method to be viable  .....  in my mind.

    image number xxx437 ....  shows the build up of CA glue on top of the pin block.  I'd sure like to see more of it going down the bore and not going to waste on top (under the tuning pin bushing).

    image number xxx434 ...  seems to have some penetration in the left hole at the very top. 

    image number xxx430 ...  the dots are where I tried to use a felt tip marker to see if there was a difference in the way the ink penetrates and travels into the wood grain assuming the CA glue would produce a different pattern.  I don't keep CA glue in my shop because of it's shelf life and I don't see it as a viable glue to have in my life.  If I had some I would have put some on the bore and compared.

    My findings on this penetration study I feel are inconclusive but I leave that up to each one of you to decide for yourself.  This piano was treated on numerous occasions and the effects were not usable hence the pinblock replacement.

    I tried scraping the areas that I thought were covered in CA glue hoping to be able to smell the glue.  I wasn't sure of my findings with this method.  I could definately smell it on top of the block but I wasn't sure of my findings from inside the bore.

    I tried holding the piece at different angles to try and catch the sheen in the light to possibly be able to detect the presence of CA glue but I didn't feel that produced any usable results.  I'm open to suggestions.  Heat?? 

    From all this I deduced that if I do indeed use CA glue, I'll be flagpoling the tuning pin while applying the glue to hopefully acheive as much penetration as possible.



    -------------------------------------------
    Larry Fisher
    Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
    Vancouver WA
    360-256-2999
    -------------------------------------------








  • 20.  RE:Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-10-2013 13:22
    With respect to block penetration, it's important to know that CA comes in different viscosities, and that there are different techniques for applying it.

    I buy my CA at Hobby Lobby (locked case next to plastic model airplanes usually), where they have it in thick (gel), medium, and thin. The thinnest runs like water, and that's what I use for pinblocks. I don't even tilt uprights any more, since I use a narrow hypodermic needle and syringe to apply maybe ten or twenty drops to the side of the pin opposite the bridge. I don't drop it; I'm just estimating quantity.

    The thin CA spreads by capillary action, and ideally should not only fill the gap between pin and block, but should follow and fill cracks as well. I do two passes, to allow time for seepage, with a Q-Tip handy to catch drips (it's easy to glue a damper to a string on an upright!). Usually once the plate bushing darkens all the way around, that's your cue that it's absorbed all it can.

    I get the best control by putting the needle in the gap between pin and block, where it's pulled away, and pushing the plunger with the heel of my hand toward the needle, rather than squeezing the syringe in the typical way between fingers and thumb.

    Ed, I'll try swabbing the hole with Gorilla brand CA as you suggest. Do you use a Q-Tip? CA can react with cotton swabs and cloth, causing smoke at times... I'd rather not go to a larger pin, for ease of tuning, and also I'd rather add more CA to this failing block before pushing a tighter wedge into it.

    I also like the idea of epoxying it closed, and redrilling (respirator advised, I assume).

    --Cy--

    -------------------------------------------
    Cy Shuster, RPT
    Albuquerque, NM
    http://www.shusterpiano.com
    http://www.facebook.com/shusterpiano

    -------------------------------------------


    -------------------------------------------
    Original Message:
    Sent: 02-09-2013 12:05
    From: Larry Fisher
    Subject: Larger pins for problem pinblock

    <snip>

    With regards to CA glue, I have replaced a pin block in a piano that had been treated this way and the amount of penetration was pathetically shallow.  I saved pieces of the pin block and made saw cuts through the tuning pin holes to get a closer look at the effect.  I can submit pix if anyone wants.  There was more CA glue around the top of the pin than anywhere else.  The first lamination barely got any glue.

    -------------------------------------------
    Larry Fisher
    Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
    Vancouver WA
    360-256-2999
    -------------------------------------------




  • 21.  RE:Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-10-2013 15:20
    Instead of swabbing the sides of the hole with something like a Q-tip, I like to squeeze enough CA glue into the hole that it makes a small reservoir of liquid CA glue in the bottom of the hole. (The underside of a grand pinblock is sealed with newspaper and scrap blocks of wood that are held in place with a pinblock jack.) I then use a 1/4 inch dowel as a plunger. This creates hydraulic action, forcing the CA into any cracks. You'll need rags handy to clean up any seepage that comes out the top of the hole.

    My last CA glue pinblock repair involved 8 tuning pins in the bass of an old Lyon & Healy baby grand that lives out in the desert near Palm Springs. Doing it this way resulted in some snappiness in a couple of them when I was finished. But I can live with it.

    -------------------------------------------
    Roger Domeny, RPT
    Domeny's Piano Service
    Colton, CA
    www.domenyspianoservice.com
    roger@domenyspianoservice.com
    (909) 824-2561
    -------------------------------------------








  • 22.  RE:Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Posted 02-10-2013 20:04

    I am always in the shop and have time to experiment with something like the CA glue method.  The reason I was against it at first is I had bad results with it, but it seems as though there are many who have had good success with it, so I am willing to give it another try.  That being said.  I think to make my experiments more objectionable, I need a digital torque wrench to accurately measure the pin torque before and after each test.
    Does anyone know where to get one of these at a reasonable cost?  i know one of the supply houses has one, but it I think it is in the 200.00 range.
    -------------------------------------------
    Roger Aycock, RPT, TEC
    Marietta, GA
    rogerspiano@bellsouth.net
    -------------------------------------------








  • 23.  Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Posted 02-08-2013 18:47
    On 2/8/2013 5:32 PM, Roger Aycock wrote: > > The point is, the CA (super) glue did not work. And in this case, the oversize pins did not work. Ron N


  • 24.  RE:Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Posted 02-08-2013 22:19
    > The point is, the CA (super) glue did not work.
    And in this case, the oversize pins did not work.
    Ron N

    But I bet a longer pin would have

    -------------------------------------------
    Roger Aycock, RPT, TEC
    Marietta, GA
    rogerspiano@bellsouth.net
    -------------------------------------------








  • 25.  Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Posted 02-08-2013 22:42
    On 2/8/2013 9:19 PM, Roger Aycock wrote: > >> The point is, the CA (super) glue did not work. > And in this case, the oversize pins did not work. Ron N But I bet a > longer pin would have Maybe, for a minute or so, but I wouldn't bet two cents on it as a fix of any duration. I wouldn't begrudge you the glory if it worked, but I sure wouldn't make any such promises on that margin. Ron N


  • 26.  Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Posted 02-10-2013 11:37
    On 2/10/2013 10:07 AM, Gregory Graham wrote: > > I have tried swabbing a few pin holes with CA and found the reinstalled pins > to be jumpy. You want the increased friction at the top of the pin, not the > bottom. Ding ding ding! Give the man a prize! The last place you want the pin tight is at the bottom. It needs to be tightest at the top to have the best hopes of controlling it. This is the principle behind my composite pinblock, with a Delignit cap on a low density multilam block. The same principle (or lack of) applies to any block, and there are a whole lot of blocks out there that could tune better. So all you folks who are concerned about CA penetration to the full depth of tuning pins or bridge pins, listen to Greg. He's got it. Ron N


  • 27.  RE:Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-10-2013 12:21
    Thanks, Ron.  After feeling some nice-to-tune pins that had the CA treatment, I only half jokingly suggest that all new pinblocks should be drilled slightly on the low torque side and treated with CA on top.

    And regarding some very jumpy, tight, new grand blocks that had been installed with varnish or lacquer as a pin driving fluid, I've always wondered if removing the pin and reaming the bottom half of the hole from below would improve the feel.  Time to drill some holes in pinblock scrap and experiment.  

    -------------------------------------------
    Greg Graham, RPT
    Brodheadsville, PA
    -------------------------------------------








  • 28.  RE:Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-10-2013 12:06
    Dear Folks,

    Re; CA Treatment

    I only reach for the CA when the piano is hopeless and I'm trying to extend the Life of a piano that otherwise would go to the dump. That said; I have had good result from using it. Every piano that I've tried it on has improved, and none have actually died. It is more effective than the old Garfield's pin restorer, without the side effect of turning the pinblock into mush. There have been a couple where I did a second treatment, but that did help the piano.

    A highly respected technician (...who shall remain nameless) suggested that the right way to treat a grand is to flip the instrument over, and apply the CA directly to the base of the tuning pins. Remove the action, remove the lid, flip up on skidboard and keep going! The skidboard usage let's you get stickers under the grand as you lay it over upside down. Your fingers have somewhere to grab it, and get it back over again. Blankets to protect the rim. I have not had the opportunity to try this, mind you! But, it certainly would help with the penetration issue; putting the CA directly on the tuning pins where it will do the most good. This seems most reasonable to me, and the tech swears (profanely) that he's had excellent result on a couple otherwise useless instruments.

    Somehow....I don't think drilling 230 holes through the back of an upright is an option, however. Too bad!

    -------------------------------------------
    Jeffrey Hickey
    North Bend OR
    tunerjeff@aol.com
    Portland Chapter #972
    -------------------------------------------








  • 29.  RE:Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-10-2013 12:24
    Jeff,

    Glad you mentioned this.  When Ron N. wrote about the pin needing to be tight more on the TOP rather than the bottom, I thought about how his reasoning, as logical as it admittedly IS, would invalidate this approach of applying CA glue to the bottoms of grand piano pins.  HOWEVER, when the pins are so dang loose that they're "spinners" (moving right back to the lower tension after you pull them up, SPINNING the tuning lever while they do it!), the approach from the bottom is effective.  I know.  I've used it.

    From the bottom I use Dryburghs "gap filling" (not ULTRA gap-filling) CA, then I let it dry for an hour or so , or hit it with accelerator if time doesn't permit, turn it over, and apply the water thin to the pins on top that may still be a bit loose.  I don't like applying it from on top there on these "flip jobs" if I don't have to, just because it discolors the tuning pin bushings.

    Another benefit of this method, and maybe the BEST one, is that you can actually SEE the pinblock cracks and treat those as well.

    Anyway, it has worked for me!

    -------------------------------------------
    John Dorr, RPT
    Institute Director, Chicago 2013
    Montana Chapter 594
    Helena, MT
    406-594-1985

    -------------------------------------------








  • 30.  RE:Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-10-2013 12:28
    oops, I nearly forgot -- after applying the "gap-filling" CA from the bottom, I follow-up with the water-thin CA, also from the bottom.

    Again, too, this is only for the "spinners".  For pinblocks that are just too loose to trust, I go from the top only.

    -------------------------------------------
    John Dorr, RPT
    Institute Director, Chicago 2013
    Montana Chapter 594
    Helena, MT
    406-594-1985

    -------------------------------------------








  • 31.  RE:Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Posted 02-10-2013 12:42

    Applying thick CA first? I would that by using the thin first, you prepare the surface (saturate) and give the thicker glue something to follow.
    -------------------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page

    -------------------------------------------








  • 32.  RE:Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-10-2013 13:02
    Jon,

    I dunno.  Maybe that could be a better way.  One of the reasons I posted it is for feedback.  Thoughts/experiences from others?


    -------------------------------------------
    John Dorr, RPT
    Institute Director, Chicago 2013
    Montana Chapter 594
    Helena, MT
    406-594-1985

    -------------------------------------------








  • 33.  Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Posted 02-10-2013 12:52
    On 2/10/2013 11:21 AM, Gregory Graham wrote: > > Thanks, Ron. After feeling some nice-to-tune pins that had the CA > treatment, I only half jokingly suggest that all new pinblocks should > be drilled slightly on the low torque side and treated with CA on > top. > > And regarding some very jumpy, tight, new grand blocks that had been > installed with varnish or lacquer as a pin driving fluid, I've > always wondered if removing the pin and reaming the bottom half of > the hole from below would improve the feel. It just might, but to go to that sort of trouble, you'd be miles ahead replacing the block with a composite and getting on with it. >Time to drill some holes > in pinblock scrap and experiment. To anyone who hasn't tried it, please give the composite a try. A 9mm Delignit cap glued on Schaff's cheapo multilam maple block, double drilled 1/4" first pass, with 6.8mm, H, or 17/64 second pass, clear through, with 1-3/8", 2/0 Denro pins. Makes an amazing block. Make your own, or I'll mail a sample for you to play with for $13. Ron N


  • 34.  Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Posted 02-10-2013 14:32
    On 2/10/2013 12:21 PM, Cy Shuster wrote: > > I also like the idea of epoxying it closed, and redrilling > (respirator advised, I assume). Redrilling likely won't be any better than swabbing, and it's already contaminated with CA to prevent epoxy from penetrating. I'd CA from the top once more without disturbing the pin, and call it if that didn't work. The block's dead, and spending money trying to resurrect it is very likely to come back and bite you in the - butt what do I know? Ron N


  • 35.  RE:Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Posted 02-10-2013 16:03
    I am delighted at the way this discussion has progressed.
    This is not a one-size-fits-all-pianos type of repair.

    -------------------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    Editor
    Piano Technicians Journal
    ed440@me.com
    704-536-7926

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  • 36.  RE:Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-11-2013 11:02
    Ron,

    I'm not sure what you mean about epoxy not penetrating. The fix I was referring to was Roger's, I think, where you pull all the pins, seal the bottom of the block, and fill all the holes with epoxy. This should penetrate just fine!

    Now, I don't know what pins feel like when you turn them in epoxy; that's another issue (would you mix in sawdust as a filler?).

    I did have the problem of the pins becoming nearly too jumpy to tune, after the first CA pass, and rosin powder helped. Thanks for reminding me that the pins need to be tightest at the top. If I try Ed's method of swabbing with Gorilla CA, I'll just do the top of the hole, and I'll definitely install new plate bushings.

    --Cy--

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    Cy Shuster, RPT
    Albuquerque, NM
    http://www.shusterpiano.com
    http://www.facebook.com/shusterpiano

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  • 37.  RE:Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Posted 02-11-2013 12:27
    Cy,
    I don't use anything as a filler. The epoxy I use is West systems epoxy from Pianotek.  You can get the fast hardener or the slow hardener, it doesn't really matter unless you have a lot of holes to fill. I would imagine for a repair in the customer's home, you could use the 5 minute epoxy.  I have never just swabbed the hole, but I don't see why it would not work.
    I use this a lot on squares because the block is always shot.  I do this mainly when it has been restrung with 4/0 pins when I get it.
    I never use tuning pins larger than a 4/0 on anything, so in order to keep from going to a 5/0 or 6/0, I fill and re-drill.
    When I use this method,  I sprinkle baby powder on the pile of pins and drive them in.  I don't recall ever having a jumping pin from doing this.
    I also do this on uprights with the same success.


    -------------------------------------------
    Roger Aycock, RPT, TEC
    Marietta, GA
    rogerspiano@bellsouth.net
    -------------------------------------------








  • 38.  Larger pins for problem pinblock

    Posted 02-11-2013 12:52
    On 2/11/2013 10:01 AM, Cy Shuster wrote: > > Ron, > > I'm not sure what you mean about epoxy not penetrating. The fix I > was referring to was Roger's, I think, where you pull all the pins, > seal the bottom of the block, and fill all the holes with epoxy. This > should penetrate just fine! Yes, it should and does. I thought the suggestion was epoxying the already CA'd block, which I wouldn't expect good results from. > Now, I don't know what pins feel like when you turn them in epoxy; > that's another issue (would you mix in sawdust as a filler?). No, no sawdust. They feel different because it's no longer a wooden pinblock, but it does work. > I did have the problem of the pins becoming nearly too jumpy to tune, > after the first CA pass, and rosin powder helped. Thanks for > reminding me that the pins need to be tightest at the top. If I try > Ed's method of swabbing with Gorilla CA, I'll just do the top of the > hole, and I'll definitely install new plate bushings. I still think it's very likely a waste of time and money. The only rational reason I think of for oversize pins followed by CA to still be loose is that the block is coming apart. I don't see that throwing a bunch more hours at it by pulling pins and swabbing with Gorilla CA is going to change that. Ron N