Pianotech

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: CAUT and Pianotech .
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Hi all.

I have a gig later this week to put a historic temperament on a older Steinway. When I asked the owner which one he wanted, he was not specific. He mentioned perhaps a Victorian or a Well. He did not seen well informed(pun intended) about his desires.

This being my first dive into HT, what would you recommend? I have a SATll to aide in the process.

Thanks for your suggestions,

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Phil Bondi,RPT
Bondi's Piano Service
www.philbondi.com
239-949-3688

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Greetings,
I suggest that you use Jim Coleman's temperament # 11. Mild yet
colorful with the most even progression since Young's idealized
version. Get the specifics from Jason's Rollingball.com website.
Regards,

Ed Foote RPT
http://www.piano-tuners.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html


Original Message------

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: CAUT and Pianotech .
-------------------------------------------
Hi all.

I have a gig later this week to put a historic temperament on a older Steinway. When I asked the owner which one he wanted, he was not specific. He mentioned perhaps a Victorian or a Well. He did not seen well informed(pun intended) about his desires.

This being my first dive into HT, what would you recommend? I have a SATll to aide in the process.

Thanks for your suggestions,

-------------------------------------------
Phil Bondi,RPT
Bondi's Piano Service
www.philbondi.com
239-949-3688

-------------------------------------------

Thanks Ed. I mentioned Jim's temperament and if course the owner didn't know of it. Thanks for your help.

-------------------------------------------
Phil Bondi,RPT
Bondi's Piano Service
www.philbondi.com
239-949-3688

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Original Message:
Sent: 12/30/2013 12:19:16 PM
From: a440a@aol.com
Subject: RE: First Historic temperament

Greetings,
I suggest that you use Jim Coleman's temperament # 11. Mild yet
colorful with the most even progression since Young's idealized
version. Get the specifics from Jason's Rollingball.com website.
Regards,

Ed Foote RPT
http://www.piano-tuners.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html

Verry Interesting Phil,  I do not see this cross posted!

I also use Coleman 11, usually not telling the customer, for beginning players and those that play a lot of hymns

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Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.prescottpiano.com
larry@prescottpiano.com
928-445-3888
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Original Message:
Sent: 12-30-2013 22:42
From: Phil Bondi
Subject: First Historic temperament

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: CAUT and Pianotech .
-------------------------------------------
Hi all.

I have a gig later this week to put a historic temperament on a older Steinway. When I asked the owner which one he wanted, he was not specific. He mentioned perhaps a Victorian or a Well. He did not seen well informed(pun intended) about his desires.

This being my first dive into HT, what would you recommend? I have a SATll to aide in the process.

Thanks for your suggestions,

-------------------------------------------
Phil Bondi,RPT
Bondi's Piano Service
www.philbondi.com
239-949-3688

-------------------------------------------

I have tied many temperaments, and my customers have chosen the De Veroli (Almost Equal). Another would be Koval 1.5.
Then take them further to Coleman 11.
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Regards,

Jon Page

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Mark Roe
Boulder CO
303-581-9693
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Phil,

Unless your customer concentrates on a narrow period of the repertoire, it may not matter which temperament, especially if he just wants to see what "alternative" temperaments are all about.  On the other hand, it may be best to give him one with more "key color" that he can more readily apprehend.  For that, I'd recommend the Thomas Young.  The Broadwood "Usual," which I prefer, isn't quite as wild yet maintains a clearly improved sonority (compared to ET) in the "smooth" keys.  They're both in the SAT, I think.  Haven't used the Coleman.  Starting from ET, the greater the cents offsets (which influences the degree of key color), the more time to stabilize the tuning, I've found, depending on the piano.  

Mark




Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2013 17:50
From: Phil Bondi
Subject: First Historic temperament

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: CAUT and Pianotech .
-------------------------------------------
Hi all.

I have a gig later this week to put a historic temperament on a older Steinway. When I asked the owner which one he wanted, he was not specific. He mentioned perhaps a Victorian or a Well. He did not seen well informed(pun intended) about his desires.

This being my first dive into HT, what would you recommend? I have a SATll to aide in the process.

Thanks for your suggestions,

-------------------------------------------
Phil Bondi,RPT
Bondi's Piano Service
www.philbondi.com
239-949-3688

-------------------------------------------

If the piano requires a pitch raise, raise it in whatever you want. Ask them to play it, their initial reaction will tell you if that is the one to try or tune in a different one. Sometimes I would tune the middle third of the piano for them to sample. Too many times  they wanted to keep ET, so I stopped promoting it. Who needs to extra unpaid work. So p/r in one and maybe tune in another one that's close to give them a better sense.

-------------------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Hi all.

I cross posted this to CAUT and there's been quite a bit of chatter over there on the subject.

Well, it's done. I put a Thomas Young#1 on a 60's S&S M. I tuned C3 to B3 with available offsets from David Porritt, and the rest aurally.

Jon, the piano was real close, and the client did know what he wanted - knew the Thomas Young when I mentioned it, and approved(good thing!). This was a good venture for me into that realm of tuning. The client approved and was happy.

Next question: Where can I find available offsets for different historic temperaments? Unless I don't know what I'm looking at, I didn't see offsets on rollingball.com, and I thought I would. I thought there was a site for offsets of historicals....

Thanks for the input from everyone.


-------------------------------------------
Phil Bondi,RPT
Bondi's Piano Service
www.philbondi.com
239-949-3688

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Original Message:
Sent: 01-03-2014 16:33
From: Jon Page
Subject: First Historic temperament

If the piano requires a pitch raise, raise it in whatever you want. Ask them to play it, their initial reaction will tell you if that is the one to try or tune in a different one. Sometimes I would tune the middle third of the piano for them to sample. Too many times  they wanted to keep ET, so I stopped promoting it. Who needs to extra unpaid work. So p/r in one and maybe tune in another one that's close to give them a better sense.

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Regards,

Jon Page

You only need a TLA - Tuning Set CTS-5 by Marc Vogel. I've had mine for many years so there's probably an updated version out. It has a very accurate 'bead' read-out where 'still is on the nose, moving Left is flat and moving Right is sharp - the accuracy can be coarse or fine - which you can set. There are 16 temperaments built in (including ET) each of which gives the variation from ET for each note. It can be set to 'Automatic' or 'Manual'. I usually tune just the middle 8ve. to it and the remainder by ear. It can be set to: 1: Tuning 2: Pitch 3: Cent-Measure 4: Temp.Hist. 5:Stretching. All one ever needs, in fact. And its longevity speaks for itself. Very accurate. Uses 4 x AA rechargeable or non-rechargeable as a power source (batteries last a very long time the way I use it, so I use rechargeable) It also comes with a mains power unit - plug-in-the-wall type - though I've never used that. Size-wise it measures: 6.75" x 3.75" x 1.75". and I keep mine in one of my wif'e's cast-off handbags - very small leather type with zips.   Michael

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Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
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Original Message:
Sent: 01-04-2014 04:46
From: Phil Bondi
Subject: First Historic temperament


Hi all.

I cross posted this to CAUT and there's been quite a bit of chatter over there on the subject.

Well, it's done. I put a Thomas Young#1 on a 60's S&S M. I tuned C3 to B3 with available offsets from David Porritt, and the rest aurally.

Jon, the piano was real close, and the client did know what he wanted - knew the Thomas Young when I mentioned it, and approved(good thing!). This was a good venture for me into that realm of tuning. The client approved and was happy.

Next question: Where can I find available offsets for different historic temperaments? Unless I don't know what I'm looking at, I didn't see offsets on rollingball.com, and I thought I would. I thought there was a site for offsets of historicals....

Thanks for the input from everyone.


-------------------------------------------
Phil Bondi,RPT
Bondi's Piano Service
www.philbondi.com
239-949-3688

-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-03-2014 16:33
From: Jon Page
Subject: First Historic temperament

If the piano requires a pitch raise, raise it in whatever you want. Ask them to play it, their initial reaction will tell you if that is the one to try or tune in a different one. Sometimes I would tune the middle third of the piano for them to sample. Too many times  they wanted to keep ET, so I stopped promoting it. Who needs to extra unpaid work. So p/r in one and maybe tune in another one that's close to give them a better sense.

-------------------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Phil-

I believe all current ETDs come with offsets installed, except for Tunic, which by definition only works for equal temperament.

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Ed Sutton
Editor
Piano Technicians Journal
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926

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Original Message:
Sent: 01-04-2014 08:19
From: Phil Bondi
Subject: First Historic temperament


Hi all.

I cross posted this to CAUT and there's been quite a bit of chatter over there on the subject.

Well, it's done. I put a Thomas Young#1 on a 60's S&S M. I tuned C3 to B3 with available offsets from David Porritt, and the rest aurally.

Jon, the piano was real close, and the client did know what he wanted - knew the Thomas Young when I mentioned it, and approved(good thing!). This was a good venture for me into that realm of tuning. The client approved and was happy.

Next question: Where can I find available offsets for different historic temperaments? Unless I don't know what I'm looking at, I didn't see offsets on rollingball.com, and I thought I would. I thought there was a site for offsets of historicals....

Thanks for the input from everyone.


-------------------------------------------
Phil Bondi,RPT
Bondi's Piano Service
www.philbondi.com
239-949-3688

-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-03-2014 16:33
From: Jon Page
Subject: First Historic temperament

If the piano requires a pitch raise, raise it in whatever you want. Ask them to play it, their initial reaction will tell you if that is the one to try or tune in a different one. Sometimes I would tune the middle third of the piano for them to sample. Too many times  they wanted to keep ET, so I stopped promoting it. Who needs to extra unpaid work. So p/r in one and maybe tune in another one that's close to give them a better sense.

-------------------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Hi Ed.

'current ETD's" - well, outside of my Tunic software I have a SATll. 

Up the creek....
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Phil Bondi,RPT
Bondi's Piano Service
www.philbondi.com
239-949-3688

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Phil,

The offsets are there, but the data is dense (see the link "Reading the Charts" on the homepage). 

Each chart shows thirteen major triads in the circle of fifths from C3 to C4, starting with CEG, so the offsets are not in chromatic order. Below each triad is the offset for the fundamental of that triad.

For Thomas Young, 1799 (Jorgensen, 264):
C +6.23
G +4.15
D +2.08
A 0.00
E -2.08
B -1.96
F# -1.83
C# +0.12
Ab +2.08
Eb +4.03
Bb +5.99
F +6.11
C +6.23 (duplicated)

Rollingball.com just keeps getting better. Check out the link "The Sounds of Temperament" -- you can hear cadences in each one! Jason Kanter has done a tremendous service.

--Cy--

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Cy Shuster, RPT
Albuquerque, NM
http://www.shusterpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/shusterpiano

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Original Message:
Sent: 01-05-2014 08:47
From: Phil Bondi
Subject: First Historic temperament


Hi all.

I cross posted this to CAUT and there's been quite a bit of chatter over there on the subject.

Well, it's done. I put a Thomas Young#1 on a 60's S&S M. I tuned C3 to B3 with available offsets from David Porritt, and the rest aurally.

Jon, the piano was real close, and the client did know what he wanted - knew the Thomas Young when I mentioned it, and approved(good thing!). This was a good venture for me into that realm of tuning. The client approved and was happy.

Next question: Where can I find available offsets for different historic temperaments? Unless I don't know what I'm looking at, I didn't see offsets on rollingball.com, and I thought I would. I thought there was a site for offsets of historicals....

Thanks for the input from everyone.


-------------------------------------------
Phil Bondi,RPT
Bondi's Piano Service
www.philbondi.com
239-949-3688

-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-03-2014 16:33
From: Jon Page
Subject: First Historic temperament

If the piano requires a pitch raise, raise it in whatever you want. Ask them to play it, their initial reaction will tell you if that is the one to try or tune in a different one. Sometimes I would tune the middle third of the piano for them to sample. Too many times  they wanted to keep ET, so I stopped promoting it. Who needs to extra unpaid work. So p/r in one and maybe tune in another one that's close to give them a better sense.

-------------------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Hi Cy.

Yes they were pointed out to me. Thanks.

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Phil Bondi,RPT
Bondi's Piano Service
www.philbondi.com
239-949-3688

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Original Message:
Sent: 1/5/2014 8:57:22 AM
From: cy@shusterpiano.com
Subject: RE:First Historic temperament

Phil, The offsets are there, but the data is dense (see the link "Reading the Charts" on the homepage).  Each chart shows thirteen major triads in the circle of fifths from C3 to C4, starting with CEG, so the offsets are not in chromatic order. Below each triad is the offset for the fundamental of that triad. For Thomas Young, 1799 (Jorgensen, 264): C +6.23 G +4.15 D +2.08 A 0.00 E -2.08 B -1.96 F# -1.83 C# +0.12 Ab +2.08 Eb +4.03 Bb +5.99 F +6.11 C +6.23 (duplicated) Rollingball.com just keeps getting better. Check out the link "The Sounds of Temperament" -- you can hear cadences in each one! Jason Kanter has done a tremendous service. --Cy-- ------------------------------------------- Cy Shuster, RPT Albuquerque, NM http://www.shusterpiano.com http://www.facebook.com/shusterpiano -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 01-05-2014 08:47 From: Phil Bondi Subject: First Historic temperament Hi all. I cross posted this to CAUT and there's been quite a bit of chatter over there on the subject. Well, it's done. I put a Thomas Young#1 on a 60's S&S M. I tuned C3 to B3 with available offsets from David Porritt, and the rest aurally. Jon, the piano was real close, and the client did know what he wanted - knew the Thomas Young when I mentioned it, and approved(good thing!). This was a good venture for me into that realm of tuning. The client approved and was happy. Next question: Where can I find available offsets for different historic temperaments? Unless I don't know what I'm looking at, I didn't see offsets on rollingball.com, and I thought I would. I thought there was a site for offsets of historicals.... Thanks for the input from everyone. ------------------------------------------- Phil Bondi,RPT Bondi's Piano Service www.philbondi.com 239-949-3688 -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 01-03-2014 16:33 From: Jon Page Subject: First Historic temperament If the piano requires a pitch raise, raise it in whatever you want. Ask them to play it, their initial reaction will tell you if that is the one to try or tune in a different one. Sometimes I would tune the middle third of the piano for them to sample. Too many times  they wanted to keep ET, so I stopped promoting it. Who needs to extra unpaid work. So p/r in one and maybe tune in another one that's close to give them a better sense. ------------------------------------------- Regards, Jon Page

Well actually not my first - but my 2nd...today - an 1865 semi-restored Bradbury Square. Used the same Thomas Young #1 and I have to admit it sounded not terrible.

I feel much better now applying a historic temperament on an instrument. Thanks for the help everyone, especially Dave Porritt.
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Phil Bondi,RPT
Bondi's Piano Service
www.philbondi.com
239-949-3688

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