Pianotech

  • 1.  Destringing Question

    Posted 03-07-2014 10:21
    Elsewhere I am reading a discussion of the need for careful, gradual release of tension across the piano while destringing.
    The concern is that somehow, if the tension is released too suddenly from one section of the piano, the piano will become "unbalanced" and it may cause the plate or case to break or twist, or it may injure the soundboard.
    I don't see any "balance of string tension" in a piano. To me it looks like they are all pulling against the case and plate, not against each other. I don't see any problem with removing the strings any way that works, and I have not had any pianos collapse from the stress of having string tension removed.
    Thus, I believe this is one of those stories that gets passed on, generation to generation, any the threat of imagined bad consequences enforces the behavior.
    I would be grateful if someone can give me a reasonable explanation for the need to release tension little by little when restringing.
    Has anyone had firsthand experience of a plate breaking or case or soundboard damage cased by releasing string tension?
    (Firsthand, please, not a passed down story.)

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    Ed Sutton
    Editor
    Piano Technicians Journal
    ed440@me.com
    704-536-7926

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  • 2.  RE: Destringing Question

    Posted 03-07-2014 10:44
    On 3/7/2014 9:21 AM, Ed Sutton via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
    > Elsewhere I am reading a discussion of the need for careful, gradual release of tension across the piano while destringing.
    > The concern is that somehow, if the tension is released too suddenly from one section of the piano, the piano will become "unbalanced" and it may cause the plate or case to break or twist, or it may injure the soundboard.
    > I don't see any "balance of string tension" in a piano. To me it looks like they are all pulling against the case and plate, not against each other. I don't see any problem with removing the strings any way that works, and I have not had any pianos collapse from the stress of having string tension removed.
    > Thus, I believe this is one of those stories that gets passed on, generation to generation, any the threat of imagined bad consequences enforces the behavior.
    > I would be grateful if someone can give me a reasonable explanation for the need to release tension little by little when restringing.
    > Has anyone had firsthand experience of a plate breaking or case or soundboard damage cased by releasing string tension?
    > (Firsthand, please, not a passed down story.)
    >
    > -------------------------------------------
    > Ed Sutton
    > Editor
    > Piano Technicians Journal
    > ed440@me.com
    > 704-536-7926
    >
    > -------------------------------------------
    >
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  • 3.  RE: Destringing Question

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-07-2014 10:50
    Hi, Ed:
    This isn't something that happened to me, personally, but did happen in the store I used to work in. It was a Cupid (Sohmer?) baby grand that my colleague was installing bass strings on. While he was removing the bass strings, the plate cracked in the webbing in the treble area next to a strut. When the bass strings were replaced and pulled to pitch, the crack came together again. As far as I know, there were no stability problems with it afterwards. I believe I heard that these Cupid grands were prone to cracking.
    Whether he let the tension down gradually, or whether it was done left to right, right to left, I don't know.
    Paul McCloud
    San Diego




  • 4.  RE:Destringing Question

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-07-2014 11:01
    It's never happened to me.  When I lower tension, I start in the middle just on one of the 3 strings up a ways, then down a ways and every other bass string, then another string down, then the rest of the bass strings and then the final of the trichords.  It takes a little longer, but it works for me

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    Paul T. Williams RPT
    Piano Technician
    Glenn Korff School of Music
    University of Nebraska
    Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
    pwilliams4@unl.edu

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  • 5.  RE: Destringing Question

    Posted 03-07-2014 11:15
    On 3/7/2014 9:21 AM, Ed Sutton via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:

    Sorry, send is directly below edit and I miscued.


    > I don't see any "balance of string tension" in a piano.

    Across the scale, bass and treble. The same reason so many worries have
    been posted about removing the bass strings to replace or repair a bass
    bridge. Puts the tension out of balance across the scale.


    > To me it looks like they are all pulling against the case and plate,
    > not against each other.

    Against the plate, yes. Against the case, not much. That's what plates
    are for.


    > Thus, I believe
    > this is one of those stories that gets passed on, generation to
    > generation, any the threat of imagined bad consequences enforces the
    > behavior.

    Yes. If you cross your eyes, they'll stick like that.


    > I would be grateful if someone can give me a reasonable
    > explanation for the need to release tension little by little when
    > restringing. Has anyone had firsthand experience of a plate breaking
    > or case or soundboard damage cased by releasing string tension?
    > (Firsthand, please, not a passed down story.)

    My call is this: I can't see the stress in the plate, so I can't say in
    any given instance how much leeway I have. In most cases, it's
    considerable, but in the case of a broken plate, the price is awfully
    high for throwing caution to the winds and guessing wrong. Every time I
    chip a restring to pitch, I'm not entirely comfortable until it's up and
    had a couple of tuning passes. I hope never to hear "The Sound".

    In the case of removing the bass strings, I've never lowered overall
    tension doing that and don't intend to. Restrings are regularly pulled
    to pitch to settle the bends install braid before the bass strings are
    even installed, and I haven't heard from anyone that it has been a problem.

    In destringing, I lower the center string all the way across, then left,
    right, etc. It costs me nothing extra in time, and thus isn't
    pathologically cautious. When I can get added safety or quality in
    result in anything at no extra cost in time, I'll do it. There's no
    point in being terrified of a plate under string tension, but there's
    also no point in ignoring real if unlikely potential for disaster.

    The soundboard? It's probably already shot, but even if it's not, taking
    minimal precaution with the plate covers the board too. You almost
    certainly can't (further) hurt the soundboard whatever you do, but the
    plate is worth some minimal caution, like installing the perimeter lags
    and the plate horn wedge before chipping to pitch.

    Ron N




  • 6.  RE:Destringing Question

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-07-2014 12:18
    I essentially agree with Ron. A few additional observations: I have restrung top sections many, many times. I simply remove all the strings, do what is needed to capo and bridge, then restring as usual. No particular care in unstringing. I look at that area as separate from the rest of the piano in terms of stress. The cross stress of bass and tenor leads me to do what others do, one pin per unison kind of caution in unstringing the whole piano, but I am not convinced it is really necessary, just a bit of extra insurance.

    I think that in general plates are overbuilt, to account for possible weaknesses, probably usually stemming from when the plate is cooling down (internal stresses usually, due to uneven cooling). So the vast majority of the time, there isn't really any danger. 1% is probably a large number for potential problems, but even 0.1% is a serious matter. I have heard "the noise," so I have some paranoia and respect. (In my case it was a five year old piano, I was completing my second pass of a 30¢ or so pitch raise, tuning B7, when POW!!!! the tenor strut gave and pitch dropped 50¢ or more. No real connection of cause and effect, except for added tension and probably jerking the piano around a bit because of tight pins, which, together, became the straw that broke the back, which I will guess was long since ready to break).

    Like Ron, I have replaced several sets of bass strings, and I just remove them all and put on the new ones, no messing around. I go by the same logic of having strung many pianos, where the treble strings are at some fair tension before the bass are put on, and it isn't a problem. Well, it hasn't been. The thing is, the plate is securely fastened to a pretty massive case structure (usually), and it just isn't going to twist around. I guess there are pianos flimsily enough built that I would worry about them, but not most pianos I work on. Uprights would be more subject to that sort of thing than grands, and I guess I mostly do grands. Uprights will rack quite a bit, so a little more caution might be advised.

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    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
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  • 7.  RE:Destringing Question

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-07-2014 13:45
    It might be worth noting that the Baldwin method for stringing and adjusting bearing on the accu-just hitch pins involves stringing the tenor and treble and bringing to 440 before putting on the bass strings.

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    Zeno Wood
    Brooklyn, NY
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  • 8.  RE:Destringing Question

    Posted 03-07-2014 21:38

    Thank you for your responses.
    -------------------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    Editor
    Piano Technicians Journal
    ed440@me.com
    704-536-7926

    -------------------------------------------








  • 9.  RE:Destringing Question

    Posted 03-08-2014 04:33
    Yes. I have. Many years ago. A client asked if I would bring his upright to A=440. This has been posted somewhere on the List. In was very careful to bring it up in 8ves against my ETD. In short, as I was fine tuning the plate broke/cracked to such an extent the piano was a write-off. My client and I ruefully surveyed the old banger and he asked if I'd like a beer. We spent the remainder of the afternoon amicably drinking cans of beer.
    Michael (UK)

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    Michael Gamble
    semi retired
    Brighton
    01273813612
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