Pianotech

I've begun servicing a 2009 Sauter 275 Grand at a church and I'm disappointed in it's stability. It's got a double reservoir Dampp Chaser, which is kept up, but still it really needs tuning at least once a month if not sooner. I do think it's played pretty hard but I would think I could expect more stability out of it. The pins don't feel very tight to me so I'm assuming that's the problem.

Does anyone have experience with a Sauter? This is my first one.  

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------

Scott,
When a technician simply states that a piano won't stay in tune, it doesn't give us much to go on. Pianos don't stay in tune for many reasons, although your comment about the less than desirable tuning pin tightness would point to an obvious problem. To venture an otherwise guess we would need to know such things such as: Is there a discrepancy at the tenor break? Are the unisons going out of tune? Are the octaves drifting? Is one area of the piano always the culprit? Do the hammers show excessive wear? Are the hammers excessively hard? Do the strings render through the friction points properly? Without knowing these and other possible factors I might not be thinking of, anybody responding to your question would only be making wild guesses. If none of the issues mentioned are a factor, I would venture a guess that the Dampp Chaser is malfunctioning, but that would likely be evident if the entire piano were drifting up and down.
-------------------------------------------
Roger Gable
Gable Piano
Everett WA
425-252-5000
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-17-2015 15:59
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand

I've begun servicing a 2009 Sauter 275 Grand at a church and I'm disappointed in it's stability. It's got a double reservoir Dampp Chaser, which is kept up, but still it really needs tuning at least once a month if not sooner. I do think it's played pretty hard but I would think I could expect more stability out of it. The pins don't feel very tight to me so I'm assuming that's the problem.

Does anyone have experience with a Sauter? This is my first one.  

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------

Scott, The Siberian-Canadian air masses have doubtless infiltrated Nebraska to a greater extent than we have experienced in eastern Massachusetts -- and it is damned cold and dry here!! Measure the RH when you service the piano. A Dampp-Chaser undercover would be a good next step, and a string cover wouldn't hurt either. Take the time to get your tunings as solid as possible, etc. Consider calling Sauter's tech rep for advice. Good luck! ------------------------------------------- Patrick Draine Billerica MA 978-663-9690 -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 01-17-2015 15:59 From: Scott Kerns Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand I've begun servicing a 2009 Sauter 275 Grand at a church and I'm disappointed in it's stability. It's got a double reservoir Dampp Chaser, which is kept up, but still it really needs tuning at least once a month if not sooner. I do think it's played pretty hard but I would think I could expect more stability out of it. The pins don't feel very tight to me so I'm assuming that's the problem. Does anyone have experience with a Sauter? This is my first one. ------------------------------------------- Scott Kerns "That Tuning Guy" Lincoln, NE www.thattuningguy.com -------------------------------------------

I don't believe the block, anything particular about the piano brand, or
how hard it's played. Pins either hold, or don't hold. You're in a
wretched climate, and the piano is in an institution noted for wretched
climate control. You have a Dampp-Chaser installed, put a full length
cover over it and keep track of the RH% with each tuning. Make very sure
you leave a stable tuning, and you'll have as good a situation as you're
likely to get.

Ron N


Original Message------

I've begun servicing a 2009 Sauter 275 Grand at a church and I'm disappointed in it's stability. It's got a double reservoir Dampp Chaser, which is kept up, but still it really needs tuning at least once a month if not sooner. I do think it's played pretty hard but I would think I could expect more stability out of it. The pins don't feel very tight to me so I'm assuming that's the problem.

Does anyone have experience with a Sauter? This is my first one.  

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------

Thanks for the input guys. Really the only question I had is whether anyone had had a similar experience with Sauter. My impression is that it's supposed to be a very high quality piano. I'm just not impressed. For example; I service a Baldwin SD Grand  #242447 and it stays very stable. To be fair, it is tuned once a month and I've got MusicSorb in it. The piano is basically sealed up with weatherstripping. But it is moved around a lot and played a lot. I figured that the Sauter, with a double Dampp Chaser and being tuned about once a month and sitting in exactly the same spot, would be pretty stable too. So far it's not. 

Indeed I AM in wretched climate! I know that has a lot to do with it but eventually I might have to address the pins being loose. 

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-17-2015 23:28
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand

I don't believe the block, anything particular about the piano brand, or
how hard it's played. Pins either hold, or don't hold. You're in a
wretched climate, and the piano is in an institution noted for wretched
climate control. You have a Dampp-Chaser installed, put a full length
cover over it and keep track of the RH% with each tuning. Make very sure
you leave a stable tuning, and you'll have as good a situation as you're
likely to get.

Ron N

You keep on mentioning loose pins.
What do you consider loose? In inch pounds please.


-------------------------------------------
John M. Ross
Ross Piano Service
Windsor, Nova Scotia, Canada
jrpiano@bellaliant.net
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-18-2015 12:32
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand

Thanks for the input guys. Really the only question I had is whether anyone had had a similar experience with Sauter. My impression is that it's supposed to be a very high quality piano. I'm just not impressed. For example; I service a Baldwin SD Grand  #242447 and it stays very stable. To be fair, it is tuned once a month and I've got MusicSorb in it. The piano is basically sealed up with weatherstripping. But it is moved around a lot and played a lot. I figured that the Sauter, with a double Dampp Chaser and being tuned about once a month and sitting in exactly the same spot, would be pretty stable too. So far it's not. 

Indeed I AM in wretched climate! I know that has a lot to do with it but eventually I might have to address the pins being loose. 

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-17-2015 23:28
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand

I don't believe the block, anything particular about the piano brand, or
how hard it's played. Pins either hold, or don't hold. You're in a
wretched climate, and the piano is in an institution noted for wretched
climate control. You have a Dampp-Chaser installed, put a full length
cover over it and keep track of the RH% with each tuning. Make very sure
you leave a stable tuning, and you'll have as good a situation as you're
likely to get.

Ron N

I've never measured. I'm just going by my experience (20 years) and how other pianos that are stable feel. Admittedly, it's not scientific. The feel of the pins is one thing I'm wondering about. If there were someone who would say that they've tuned Sauters and the pin feel was very tight then I would figure something wasn't quite right with this one. On the other hand, someone might tell me that in their experience with Sauter the pins move easily but they had found that they were stable, then I probably need to take a look at my technique. Maybe it's me. Again, my question is more about people's experience with this particular brand, not tuning in general. Does that make sense?

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-18-2015 12:51
From: John Ross
Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand

You keep on mentioning loose pins.
What do you consider loose? In inch pounds please.


-------------------------------------------
John M. Ross
Ross Piano Service
Windsor, Nova Scotia, Canada
jrpiano@bellaliant.net
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-18-2015 12:32
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand

Thanks for the input guys. Really the only question I had is whether anyone had had a similar experience with Sauter. My impression is that it's supposed to be a very high quality piano. I'm just not impressed. For example; I service a Baldwin SD Grand  #242447 and it stays very stable. To be fair, it is tuned once a month and I've got MusicSorb in it. The piano is basically sealed up with weatherstripping. But it is moved around a lot and played a lot. I figured that the Sauter, with a double Dampp Chaser and being tuned about once a month and sitting in exactly the same spot, would be pretty stable too. So far it's not. 

Indeed I AM in wretched climate! I know that has a lot to do with it but eventually I might have to address the pins being loose. 

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-17-2015 23:28
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand

I don't believe the block, anything particular about the piano brand, or
how hard it's played. Pins either hold, or don't hold. You're in a
wretched climate, and the piano is in an institution noted for wretched
climate control. You have a Dampp-Chaser installed, put a full length
cover over it and keep track of the RH% with each tuning. Make very sure
you leave a stable tuning, and you'll have as good a situation as you're
likely to get.

Ron N

I've had a few Asian grands with a 'squirrelly' tuning. What finally made the tuning stable was to coax the wire around the pin with pliers, taking up the slack. I used parallel pliers at first but then modified a pair of wire bending pliers (making two concave surfaces) for the compound leverage. Squeeze in the becket and rotate the pliers counter-clockwise, four half-turns. The pitch usually drops on each wire between 60 cents to a minor third.

Does the temperature fluctuate drastically during the week?  Also, with the micro-climate established in the closed piano, the tuning will drift  once opened up and exposed to its environment. I have someone open the piano and set the heat hours before tuning, if not the day before.
-------------------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message------

I've never measured. I'm just going by my experience (20 years) and how other pianos that are stable feel. Admittedly, it's not scientific. The feel of the pins is one thing I'm wondering about. If there were someone who would say that they've tuned Sauters and the pin feel was very tight then I would figure something wasn't quite right with this one. On the other hand, someone might tell me that in their experience with Sauter the pins move easily but they had found that they were stable, then I probably need to take a look at my technique. Maybe it's me. Again, my question is more about people's experience with this particular brand, not tuning in general. Does that make sense?

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-18-2015 12:51
From: John Ross
Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand

You keep on mentioning loose pins.
What do you consider loose? In inch pounds please.


-------------------------------------------
John M. Ross
Ross Piano Service
Windsor, Nova Scotia, Canada
jrpiano@bellaliant.net
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-18-2015 12:32
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand

Thanks for the input guys. Really the only question I had is whether anyone had had a similar experience with Sauter. My impression is that it's supposed to be a very high quality piano. I'm just not impressed. For example; I service a Baldwin SD Grand  #242447 and it stays very stable. To be fair, it is tuned once a month and I've got MusicSorb in it. The piano is basically sealed up with weatherstripping. But it is moved around a lot and played a lot. I figured that the Sauter, with a double Dampp Chaser and being tuned about once a month and sitting in exactly the same spot, would be pretty stable too. So far it's not. 

Indeed I AM in wretched climate! I know that has a lot to do with it but eventually I might have to address the pins being loose. 

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-17-2015 23:28
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand

I don't believe the block, anything particular about the piano brand, or
how hard it's played. Pins either hold, or don't hold. You're in a
wretched climate, and the piano is in an institution noted for wretched
climate control. You have a Dampp-Chaser installed, put a full length
cover over it and keep track of the RH% with each tuning. Make very sure
you leave a stable tuning, and you'll have as good a situation as you're
likely to get.

Ron N

Thanks Mark. That's what I was looking for. 

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-18-2015 14:08
From: Mark Schecter
Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand

Scott,

I tuned a Sauter 275 for about 15 years. Early on, I installed a 2-heater no-tank system early on to stop incipient rusting, due to high average humidity (San Francisco). After that, I had no issues with tuning stability, no questions about pin tightness, no quality control issues of any kind. It was quite a lovely piano, and it looked good, too. 

I would say if you have any question about your hammer technique, do look there, as it couldn't hurt to reexamine it. In my experience, pins have to be really loose to be untunable - just a bit inconsistent makes it harder, but is not enough to "cause" instability, except to the extent the tuner is not able to deal with the inconsistency, consistently. 

Mark 

| |   | | |     | |    | | |     | |    | | |   

Original Message------

Scott,

I tuned a Sauter 275 for about 15 years. Early on, I installed a 2-heater no-tank system early on to stop incipient rusting, due to high average humidity (San Francisco). After that, I had no issues with tuning stability, no questions about pin tightness, no quality control issues of any kind. It was quite a lovely piano, and it looked good, too. 

I would say if you have any question about your hammer technique, do look there, as it couldn't hurt to reexamine it. In my experience, pins have to be really loose to be untunable - just a bit inconsistent makes it harder, but is not enough to "cause" instability, except to the extent the tuner is not able to deal with the inconsistency, consistently. 

Mark 

| |   | | |     | |    | | |     | |    | | |   

> Does that make sense?

No, it doesn't. I've seen the string scale for the 275, and while I
wouldn't do it just that way, it's not a bad scale, and wouldn't be
adversely reactive to humidity swings, like say the Steinway B and
Yamaha GH1 in the low tenor. Pianos don't go out of tune because the
pins slip. If the pins slip, you won't be able to GET it in tune because
it will likely move while you're there. There is a huge difference
between "not very tight" and "too loose to stay put". Climate control is
always an issue, but an installed system and cover over the instrument
will control most of that. What does "played hard" mean? Is it hours or
abuse? Hours of play won't trash a good tuning, while pounding the
bejeebers out of the piano will trash the tuning and the piano. I don't
believe that one either. I think that, because the pins feel different
than what you expect, you aren't leaving a stable tuning. It's you. Some
real information in the form of pin torque readings will answer that
one. Without something real in the way of data, it's all entirely
guesswork. Some pianos don't render across the bridge well or uniformly,
and it's not necessarily brand specific, but rather the individual
piano, what it's been through, and the ability of the tuner to read and
accommodate the condition. The Sauter 275 does have titanium bridge
pins, I think, but it's still a problem of the tuner leaving a stable
tuning - or not.
Ron N


Original Message------

I've never measured. I'm just going by my experience (20 years) and how other pianos that are stable feel. Admittedly, it's not scientific. The feel of the pins is one thing I'm wondering about. If there were someone who would say that they've tuned Sauters and the pin feel was very tight then I would figure something wasn't quite right with this one. On the other hand, someone might tell me that in their experience with Sauter the pins move easily but they had found that they were stable, then I probably need to take a look at my technique. Maybe it's me. Again, my question is more about people's experience with this particular brand, not tuning in general. Does that make sense?

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-18-2015 12:51
From: John Ross
Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand

You keep on mentioning loose pins.
What do you consider loose? In inch pounds please.


-------------------------------------------
John M. Ross
Ross Piano Service
Windsor, Nova Scotia, Canada
jrpiano@bellaliant.net
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-18-2015 12:32
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand

Thanks for the input guys. Really the only question I had is whether anyone had had a similar experience with Sauter. My impression is that it's supposed to be a very high quality piano. I'm just not impressed. For example; I service a Baldwin SD Grand  #242447 and it stays very stable. To be fair, it is tuned once a month and I've got MusicSorb in it. The piano is basically sealed up with weatherstripping. But it is moved around a lot and played a lot. I figured that the Sauter, with a double Dampp Chaser and being tuned about once a month and sitting in exactly the same spot, would be pretty stable too. So far it's not. 

Indeed I AM in wretched climate! I know that has a lot to do with it but eventually I might have to address the pins being loose. 

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-17-2015 23:28
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand

I don't believe the block, anything particular about the piano brand, or
how hard it's played. Pins either hold, or don't hold. You're in a
wretched climate, and the piano is in an institution noted for wretched
climate control. You have a Dampp-Chaser installed, put a full length
cover over it and keep track of the RH% with each tuning. Make very sure
you leave a stable tuning, and you'll have as good a situation as you're
likely to get.

Ron N

Ron - It seems you're confused about what I meant by; "Does that make sense?" My question is specifically about the Sauter 275. Mark answered my question and to some extent you did too. It seems I need to take a look at me and not the piano, which I will do. 

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-18-2015 14:15
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand

> Does that make sense?

No, it doesn't. I've seen the string scale for the 275, and while I
wouldn't do it just that way, it's not a bad scale, and wouldn't be
adversely reactive to humidity swings, like say the Steinway B and
Yamaha GH1 in the low tenor. Pianos don't go out of tune because the
pins slip. If the pins slip, you won't be able to GET it in tune because
it will likely move while you're there. There is a huge difference
between "not very tight" and "too loose to stay put". Climate control is
always an issue, but an installed system and cover over the instrument
will control most of that. What does "played hard" mean? Is it hours or
abuse? Hours of play won't trash a good tuning, while pounding the
bejeebers out of the piano will trash the tuning and the piano. I don't
believe that one either. I think that, because the pins feel different
than what you expect, you aren't leaving a stable tuning. It's you. Some
real information in the form of pin torque readings will answer that
one. Without something real in the way of data, it's all entirely
guesswork. Some pianos don't render across the bridge well or uniformly,
and it's not necessarily brand specific, but rather the individual
piano, what it's been through, and the ability of the tuner to read and
accommodate the condition. The Sauter 275 does have titanium bridge
pins, I think, but it's still a problem of the tuner leaving a stable
tuning - or not.
Ron N

I'm curious what the front segments look like on this piano. Any pics, Scott?

-------------------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
-------------------------------------------

-

I understood what you were looking for. I at least attempted to explain
why I thought you were asking the wrong question.
Ron N


Original Message------

Ron - It seems you're confused about what I meant by; "Does that make sense?" My question is specifically about the Sauter 275. Mark answered my question and to some extent you did too. It seems I need to take a look at me and not the piano, which I will do. 

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-18-2015 14:15
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand

> Does that make sense?

No, it doesn't. I've seen the string scale for the 275, and while I
wouldn't do it just that way, it's not a bad scale, and wouldn't be
adversely reactive to humidity swings, like say the Steinway B and
Yamaha GH1 in the low tenor. Pianos don't go out of tune because the
pins slip. If the pins slip, you won't be able to GET it in tune because
it will likely move while you're there. There is a huge difference
between "not very tight" and "too loose to stay put". Climate control is
always an issue, but an installed system and cover over the instrument
will control most of that. What does "played hard" mean? Is it hours or
abuse? Hours of play won't trash a good tuning, while pounding the
bejeebers out of the piano will trash the tuning and the piano. I don't
believe that one either. I think that, because the pins feel different
than what you expect, you aren't leaving a stable tuning. It's you. Some
real information in the form of pin torque readings will answer that
one. Without something real in the way of data, it's all entirely
guesswork. Some pianos don't render across the bridge well or uniformly,
and it's not necessarily brand specific, but rather the individual
piano, what it's been through, and the ability of the tuner to read and
accommodate the condition. The Sauter 275 does have titanium bridge
pins, I think, but it's still a problem of the tuner leaving a stable
tuning - or not.
Ron N

Tap down the strings at the hitch pins and on the bridge. If they move that could be at least part of the problem.

is the entire piano going out lf tune, or just sections? How many cents (approximately) is it going out each month?

With the tuning pins, get a torque wrench and measure.

-------------------------------------------
Morgan T. Cowell, RPT
M.T. Cowell Piano Services
Southeast Nebraska
402-239-7876
Morgan.cowell@yahoo.com
www.mtcowell.com
-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 1/18/2015 1:28:13 PM
From: thattuningguy@gmail.com
Subject: RE: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand

I've never measured. I'm just going by my experience (20 years) and how other pianos that are stable feel. Admittedly, it's not scientific. The feel of the pins is one thing I'm wondering about. If there were someone who would say that they've tuned Sauters and the pin feel was very tight then I would figure something wasn't quite right with this one. On the other hand, someone might tell me that in their experience with Sauter the pins move easily but they had found that they were stable, then I probably need to take a look at my technique. Maybe it's me. Again, my question is more about people's experience with this particular brand, not tuning in general. Does that make sense? ------------------------------------------- Scott Kerns "That Tuning Guy" Lincoln, NE www.thattuningguy.com -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 01-18-2015 12:51 From: John Ross Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand You keep on mentioning loose pins. What do you consider loose? In inch pounds please. ------------------------------------------- John M. Ross Ross Piano Service Windsor, Nova Scotia, Canada jrpiano@bellaliant.net -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 01-18-2015 12:32 From: Scott Kerns Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand Thanks for the input guys. Really the only question I had is whether anyone had had a similar experience with Sauter. My impression is that it's supposed to be a very high quality piano. I'm just not impressed. For example; I service a Baldwin SD Grand  #242447 and it stays very stable. To be fair, it is tuned once a month and I've got MusicSorb in it. The piano is basically sealed up with weatherstripping. But it is moved around a lot and played a lot. I figured that the Sauter, with a double Dampp Chaser and being tuned about once a month and sitting in exactly the same spot, would be pretty stable too. So far it's not.  Indeed I AM in wretched climate! I know that has a lot to do with it but eventually I might have to address the pins being loose.  ------------------------------------------- Scott Kerns "That Tuning Guy" Lincoln, NE www.thattuningguy.com -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 01-17-2015 23:28 From: Ronald Nossaman Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand I don't believe the block, anything particular about the piano brand, or how hard it's played. Pins either hold, or don't hold. You're in a wretched climate, and the piano is in an institution noted for wretched climate control. You have a Dampp-Chaser installed, put a full length cover over it and keep track of the RH% with each tuning. Make very sure you leave a stable tuning, and you'll have as good a situation as you're likely to get. Ron N

One helpful diagnostic is to pluck the backscale "unisons."
If these little guys are not reasonably in tune, then the tuning will probably go out with heavy playing.
As you pluck across the backscale, you should get a sense of relative consistency with the duplex pattern.
If it's irregular, light pushing or tapping away from the bridge pin may help render the string across the bridge.

-------------------------------------------
Ed Sutton
Editor
Piano Technicians Journal
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-17-2015 15:59
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand

I've begun servicing a 2009 Sauter 275 Grand at a church and I'm disappointed in it's stability. It's got a double reservoir Dampp Chaser, which is kept up, but still it really needs tuning at least once a month if not sooner. I do think it's played pretty hard but I would think I could expect more stability out of it. The pins don't feel very tight to me so I'm assuming that's the problem.

Does anyone have experience with a Sauter? This is my first one.  

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------

Thanks Ed. I'll give that a try. 

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-18-2015 17:06
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand

One helpful diagnostic is to pluck the backscale "unisons."
If these little guys are not reasonably in tune, then the tuning will probably go out with heavy playing.
As you pluck across the backscale, you should get a sense of relative consistency with the duplex pattern.
If it's irregular, light pushing or tapping away from the bridge pin may help render the string across the bridge.

-------------------------------------------
Ed Sutton
Editor
Piano Technicians Journal
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-17-2015 15:59
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand

I've begun servicing a 2009 Sauter 275 Grand at a church and I'm disappointed in it's stability. It's got a double reservoir Dampp Chaser, which is kept up, but still it really needs tuning at least once a month if not sooner. I do think it's played pretty hard but I would think I could expect more stability out of it. The pins don't feel very tight to me so I'm assuming that's the problem.

Does anyone have experience with a Sauter? This is my first one.  

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------

My thoughts are you should get a data logger so you can see what is going on 24 x 7 over at least a 2 week period. You also need to get torque measurements on the pins
across the entire scale. Sample and record the measurements and focus on the areas that are going out. It will also probably help to seat the strings at the bridge and hitch pin and check string level. Hard playing may have driven the strings up. An undercover can help with air currents around. Is the piano near some hot air vents ? Do not expect the dampp chaser to solve all of the rh/temp issues. Does the church kill the heat during the week and go full bore at the end of the week. You may find lots of deep cycling going on. I encounter this frequently here in South Carolina but mostly in the summer when churches set the ac controls to 80 and both the temp and rh skyrockets. A data logger will give you a great baseline as will using a torque wrench. KNOWING the torque versus guessing it is the best diagnostic so get a torque wrench that measures inch lbs










-------------------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-18-2015 18:03
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand

Thanks Ed. I'll give that a try. 

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-18-2015 17:06
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand

One helpful diagnostic is to pluck the backscale "unisons."
If these little guys are not reasonably in tune, then the tuning will probably go out with heavy playing.
As you pluck across the backscale, you should get a sense of relative consistency with the duplex pattern.
If it's irregular, light pushing or tapping away from the bridge pin may help render the string across the bridge.

-------------------------------------------
Ed Sutton
Editor
Piano Technicians Journal
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-17-2015 15:59
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand

I've begun servicing a 2009 Sauter 275 Grand at a church and I'm disappointed in it's stability. It's got a double reservoir Dampp Chaser, which is kept up, but still it really needs tuning at least once a month if not sooner. I do think it's played pretty hard but I would think I could expect more stability out of it. The pins don't feel very tight to me so I'm assuming that's the problem.

Does anyone have experience with a Sauter? This is my first one.  

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------

I think you're comparing apples and hamsters. A Sauter 275 is a beautiful, sensitive piano. The pins have a low torque feel as is common with many high end european pianos. But it seems your client, and maybe you are expecting a ferrari to be good in the snow and it will never be. Comparing it to a decades old Baldwin is not helpful.

Without specifics, such as a datalogger of ambient temperature and humidity I fear you will be convincing your client they have a dog when in all actuality that have a really spectacular piano. 

Personally I feel a big part of a technicians job is to help a client love their piano. Tuning once a month, for a beautiful German concert grand is not unreasonable. What sort of expectations have you given them?

-------------------------------------------
Eric Johnson
[PerARTS LLC]
[Westport] [CT]

203-520-9064
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-17-2015 15:59
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand

I've begun servicing a 2009 Sauter 275 Grand at a church and I'm disappointed in it's stability. It's got a double reservoir Dampp Chaser, which is kept up, but still it really needs tuning at least once a month if not sooner. I do think it's played pretty hard but I would think I could expect more stability out of it. The pins don't feel very tight to me so I'm assuming that's the problem.

Does anyone have experience with a Sauter? This is my first one.  

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------

Good thoughts Eric. I like your car analogies. I've let them know that a once a month tuning is not unusual and should even be expected. 

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-18-2015 22:12
From: Eric Johnson
Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand

I think you're comparing apples and hamsters. A Sauter 275 is a beautiful, sensitive piano. The pins have a low torque feel as is common with many high end european pianos. But it seems your client, and maybe you are expecting a ferrari to be good in the snow and it will never be. Comparing it to a decades old Baldwin is not helpful.

Without specifics, such as a datalogger of ambient temperature and humidity I fear you will be convincing your client they have a dog when in all actuality that have a really spectacular piano. 

Personally I feel a big part of a technicians job is to help a client love their piano. Tuning once a month, for a beautiful German concert grand is not unreasonable. What sort of expectations have you given them?

-------------------------------------------
Eric Johnson
[PerARTS LLC]
[Westport] [CT]

203-520-9064
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-17-2015 15:59
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand

I've begun servicing a 2009 Sauter 275 Grand at a church and I'm disappointed in it's stability. It's got a double reservoir Dampp Chaser, which is kept up, but still it really needs tuning at least once a month if not sooner. I do think it's played pretty hard but I would think I could expect more stability out of it. The pins don't feel very tight to me so I'm assuming that's the problem.

Does anyone have experience with a Sauter? This is my first one.  

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------

Scott, for years I've been maintaining several Sauters in a somewhat less difficult environment (homes with air conditioning in the Colorado Front Range generally span from approximately 30% RH in winter to 55% in the summer).  My impression of the Sauters initially was that they were one of the more difficult pianos on which to foist a solid tuning.  The pitch drift between tunings was all over the place, and when I would apply the typical over-pull on a flat piano I'd find that at the "end" of a 1-1/2- hour tuning the pitch had settled none at all and the whole thing was now even sharper than the amount of my over-pull, with many unisons now off ever so slightly.  The pins were plenty tight in the wood, but spongy, with very indistinct string rendering.  I rarely spent less than two full hours on just the tuning for any newer Sauter grand.  One client with a 185 had to endure a significant pitch change in just the first plainwire note with every slight change in relative humidity.  He'd taken great pains to install whole house humidification and ensure the weak link in the system (the humidistat) was working right, and still . . . .  One can't help but theorize about the causes, attacking the scale design, the angles, the soft tuning pin steel, the extra pointless rung in the coil, a greater 24-hour humidity variation than the customer was reporting, etc., but in the end, any definitive source or solution eludes me.  Some pianos are extremely responsive to humidity variations.  And sometimes we know we just completed a careful tuning but it's still not right.
    
The good news?  They all seem to have settled down quite a bit after a few years, and they're generally very nice instruments despite how much I might have had to wrestle with them.  Hmmm, that last part makes it sound like maybe I'm the one who's settled down. 

So, to reiterate what others have said, take a bit more time to make sure the tuning is rock solid before you leave, and address all the usual suspects -- hammer/string mating is one of those aggravating, because unceasing, maintenance chores, all the more critical on a piano that gets pounded, and it can't be just assumed the bridge pins are well set.  If you do contact Sauter, I'd be interested to know what they say.  I've found them to be very attentive to my inquiries on other matters. (I also wonder what you might conclude about the effect of the DamppChaser in this case.  Operating correctly is one thing; actually working, another.  If a piano needs to be tuned several times in the same season, and structural/mechanical problems are eliminated, wouldn't you want to unplug the thing for a while and compare the difference?)  

Mark          

-------------------------------------------
Mark Roe
Boulder CO
303-581-9693
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-17-2015 15:59
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand

I've begun servicing a 2009 Sauter 275 Grand at a church and I'm disappointed in it's stability. It's got a double reservoir Dampp Chaser, which is kept up, but still it really needs tuning at least once a month if not sooner. I do think it's played pretty hard but I would think I could expect more stability out of it. The pins don't feel very tight to me so I'm assuming that's the problem.

Does anyone have experience with a Sauter? This is my first one.  

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------

< So, to reiterate what others have said, take a bit more time to make sure the tuning is rock solid before you leave

This is the reason I asked to see the configuration of the front segment...and I might hazard a guess that the entire tenor, agraffe section is probably the most challenging area to tune with stability.

There seems to be a tonal aesthetic that the high end German pianos, like Steingraber, and also the lower teir, nice German pianos like Foersters, are chasing ( I haven't seen a Sauter in this regard, but suspect same). They clearly seem to be looking for the tonal complexity which comes from a rather long stretch between agraffe and counterbearing termination. On the Foersters, the counterbearing is brass half round, but that does not improve the situation.

My take is that the front segments in this setup have 2 long segments, one long segment before the counterbearing bar, an acute-ish "termination" angle(read high-ish friction) over the counterbearing bar,  then a second long segment to the pin. This creates 2 different front segment tensions. Its hard enough to decode one front segment tension, but two front segments of unequal tension presents a challenge.  On the Foerseters, the pin torque is friendly, but the difficulty in decoding the front segment tensions remains challenging.

Jim Ialeggio







-------------------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
-------------------------------------------

Thanks Jim. I'll take a closer look at it next time and maybe even try some photos. 

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-19-2015 08:48
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand

< So, to reiterate what others have said, take a bit more time to make sure the tuning is rock solid before you leave

This is the reason I asked to see the configuration of the front segment...and I might hazard a guess that the entire tenor, agraffe section is probably the most challenging area to tune with stability.

There seems to be a tonal aesthetic that the high end German pianos, like Steingraber, and also the lower teir, nice German pianos like Foersters, are chasing ( I haven't seen a Sauter in this regard, but suspect same). They clearly seem to be looking for the tonal complexity which comes from a rather long stretch between agraffe and counterbearing termination. On the Foersters, the counterbearing is brass half round, but that does not improve the situation.

My take is that the front segments in this setup have 2 long segments, one long segment before the counterbearing bar, an acute-ish "termination" angle(read high-ish friction) over the counterbearing bar,  then a second long segment to the pin. This creates 2 different front segment tensions. Its hard enough to decode one front segment tension, but two front segments of unequal tension presents a challenge.  On the Foerseters, the pin torque is friendly, but the difficulty in decoding the front segment tensions remains challenging.

Jim Ialeggio







-------------------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
-------------------------------------------

If this does have high friction counter bearing, you'll have to use a specific tuning technique. Pulling the string to pitch and brace the pin to allow the bottom of the pin to catch up to the top. 'Softer' feel pins allow for this. Aeolian made M&H and Chickerings have to be tuned this way because of the high angle causing elevated friction. There's no finessing of the front string segment.

-------------------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

What do you mean by "brace the pin"?

ji

-------------------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
-------------------------------------------

-

Pulling the wire to pitch and then holding it at that tension for a few more seconds, maybe as much as five seconds. With a 'soft' feel pin, you don't have as much torsion effect, if any, and you can set the pin by holding the hammer steady for the bottom to stabilize in the block. I find this useful on exposed pin blocks that do not have overly tight pins. There is a Bosey 7' near here that is very comfortable to tune, soft-feel pins, no rendering problems, a pleasure to tune. As with anything, there are variations to this technique; dictated by the piano at hand.

Otherwise, you would have to overpull the tension for the bottom of the pin to set in the block and tweak the top torsion to set the string and pin. With a soft-feel pin, the twist ratio, if there is one, is closer to 1:1, for turn/pitch. A positive reaction.

High friction systems inhibit finessing the torsion and front string segment. Couple that with tight, twisty pins and you have a nightmare.

Soft-feel pins with high friction bearing surfaces need pulling to tension and leaving it.

I'm not certain but I think Andre O. touched on this a few years ago when he mentioned pulling the string to tension and bracing himself there. At least that was my impression of what he said.


-------------------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Or you can flex the pin toward the speaking length while turning it in the sharp direction, then "relax/nudge" the pin in the "upward" direction to pull the string a wee bit over friction points and directly to pitch. See this thread for much more detail than I am ever going to be willing to provide again. See particularly the contributions of David Love and me, as we were writing about essentially the same approach.

The fairly "standard" technique taught in the US has you pulling past pitch and settling back. It can work under certain conditions, but using such a technique without paying attention can also lead to horrible tuning stability, especially if you are used to pins on the tight side and use that same technique for pins on the "loose" side (quotes used because the only truly loose pin, IMO, is one that won't hold, not one that has less than some arbitrary level of torque, which is usually far higher than it should be). And if your technique is flagpoling the pin without control, and there is a fair amount of front friction, it will be anyone's guess where the pitch of each string/pin will finally settle.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
http://fredsturm.net
"When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-19-2015 19:50
From: Jon Page
Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand

Pulling the wire to pitch and then holding it at that tension for a few more seconds, maybe as much as five seconds. With a 'soft' feel pin, you don't have as much torsion effect, if any, and you can set the pin by holding the hammer steady for the bottom to stabilize in the block. I find this useful on exposed pin blocks that do not have overly tight pins. There is a Bosey 7' near here that is very comfortable to tune, soft-feel pins, no rendering problems, a pleasure to tune. As with anything, there are variations to this technique; dictated by the piano at hand.

Otherwise, you would have to overpull the tension for the bottom of the pin to set in the block and tweak the top torsion to set the string and pin. With a soft-feel pin, the twist ratio, if there is one, is closer to 1:1, for turn/pitch. A positive reaction.

High friction systems inhibit finessing the torsion and front string segment. Couple that with tight, twisty pins and you have a nightmare.

Soft-feel pins with high friction bearing surfaces need pulling to tension and leaving it.

I'm not certain but I think Andre O. touched on this a few years ago when he mentioned pulling the string to tension and bracing himself there. At least that was my impression of what he said.


-------------------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

"Normal" tuning pin torque on Sauters is generally less than Steinways and Yamahas. You might try an undercover for the climate control system. We have found that they always improve the situation. Covering the piano on top can help as well. Is the piano left open? Be sure that the humidistat is properly located and that no one is unplugging the system. For best stability these pianos like to be in tune before you tune them, so three times fast is better than one time slow applies here. And doing another tuning the next day or so can go along way toward creating long term stability. Sauters are really beautiful once a little extra time is spent on them.

-------------------------------------------
Chris Solliday
Easton PA
610-438-1051
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 01-17-2015 15:59
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: 2009 Sauter 275 Grand

I've begun servicing a 2009 Sauter 275 Grand at a church and I'm disappointed in it's stability. It's got a double reservoir Dampp Chaser, which is kept up, but still it really needs tuning at least once a month if not sooner. I do think it's played pretty hard but I would think I could expect more stability out of it. The pins don't feel very tight to me so I'm assuming that's the problem.

Does anyone have experience with a Sauter? This is my first one.  

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------