Pianotech

Greetings!

One of our Associates is having difficulty getting stable results in floor tunings of new Boston pianos, both vertical and grand. Can anyone share experience with these pianos?

Thank you...and many happy tunings in 2016!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926
------------------------------

End of year mania, so if you're not busy flood water sand bags (good luck all), take these comments with some levity (I didn't intend to be punstering this close to year's end, but there it is).

Stability problem could be linked to 'associate' status, meaning perhaps a lack of experience with a) Bostons, or b) all pianos.  Does he/she have any such problems with non-Bostons? Or, as 'floor-tunings', what are climate conditions?  How frequently are they being tuned?  moved?  What is the current 'factory-prep' protocol?  How many tunings before being shipped to dealer?  How much 'termination-fixing', i.e. tapping strings at various termination/deflection points? (let's skip the string-to-bridge issue, for now).

I'm not sure about the grands, but my experience with the Boston uprights led me (and others, I recall) to conclude that at least part of the problem lay in the lack of friction between the top termination bar and the sounding length.  The tuning pins were generally quite tight, but any slight flexing seemed to immediately translate to the sounding length, thus, the pitch.  This was especially the case when having to do a significant pitch adjustment, which was more often the case than not.

Although I shouldn't, I will (with some continued levity) link this question to two recent threads ( 'Old Tuning lever' on Piano Tech - google list; and Levitan C hammer, on Health-Related Issues).  It could be the tools, but that would then be more likely present as a general problem.

As floor tunings, tech might not feel that they have the time to be mindful/careful enough.  Is the dealer complaining, or is this the tech's own concern?  Best solution would be to note all variables, and select one to tune very frequently, for a period.  See if that affects perception of stability.

Good luck to all.

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565

Original Message:
Sent: 12-30-2015 08:42
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Tuning Stability in New Boston Pianos

Greetings!

One of our Associates is having difficulty getting stable results in floor tunings of new Boston pianos, both vertical and grand. Can anyone share experience with these pianos?

Thank you...and many happy tunings in 2016!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926
------------------------------

Ed,

This subject has come up numerous times and it would be speculative for members of this forum zero in on the problem, however it could be narrowed down to certain areas if more information is available. Because the issue is with Boston pianos, one could reasonably eliminate the fault of the pianos. Are the pianos going up or down in pitch on a wholesale basis, or the issue with the unisons or octaves drifting? Unisons point to hammer technique. Octaves suggest the pianos simply need time to adapt to the pitch adjustments common with new pianos. How long have the pianos been out of the crate? My experience has been to wait 2 weeks out of the crate before tuning. 

------------------------------
Roger Gable
Gable Piano
Everett WA
425-252-5000

Original Message:
Sent: 12-30-2015 08:42
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Tuning Stability in New Boston Pianos

Greetings!

One of our Associates is having difficulty getting stable results in floor tunings of new Boston pianos, both vertical and grand. Can anyone share experience with these pianos?

Thank you...and many happy tunings in 2016!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926
------------------------------

I'm not asking anyone to "zero in on the problem."

I have also checked the archives.

We are working with the Associate on tuning lever technique, humidity monitoring, etc.

The dealer claims that "those old problems have been solved in the new, improved Bostons."

Specifically, I'm asking if anyone on the list has had tuning stability problems with Boston pianos recently, within the last two years. In particular, a person who has tuned several new Bostons, and could describe any general experience.

Thanks.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926

Original Message:
Sent: 12-30-2015 14:11
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Tuning Stability in New Boston Pianos

Ed,

This subject has come up numerous times and it would be speculative for members of this forum zero in on the problem, however it could be narrowed down to certain areas if more information is available. Because the issue is with Boston pianos, one could reasonably eliminate the fault of the pianos. Are the pianos going up or down in pitch on a wholesale basis, or the issue with the unisons or octaves drifting? Unisons point to hammer technique. Octaves suggest the pianos simply need time to adapt to the pitch adjustments common with new pianos. How long have the pianos been out of the crate? My experience has been to wait 2 weeks out of the crate before tuning. 

------------------------------
Roger Gable
Gable Piano
Everett WA
425-252-5000

Ed -

Two comments raise questions:

We are working with the Associate on tuning lever technique, humidity monitoring, etc.

What does it mean that "we are working..."?  Why doesn't "we" agree to try tuning piano to see what "we" thinks?

The dealer claims that "those old problems have been solved in the new, improved Bostons."

How does the dealer know this?  Does he, himself, tune?  Did Steinway tell him those 'old' problems were solved?  What were they, and what was changed? Does he know this?

If I were familiar with a lot of new Bostons, I'd probably be doing dealer prep or in an institution that had taken delivery of these.  In either case, I would probably be somewhat disinclined to aggressively share this experience unless I had already run into dead-ends in trying to resolve them first with the manufacturer.   If the dealer is genuinely concerned, he should pay you to assess.

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565

Original Message:
Sent: 12-30-2015 15:30
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Tuning Stability in New Boston Pianos

I'm not asking anyone to "zero in on the problem."

I have also checked the archives.

We are working with the Associate on tuning lever technique, humidity monitoring, etc.

The dealer claims that "those old problems have been solved in the new, improved Bostons."

Specifically, I'm asking if anyone on the list has had tuning stability problems with Boston pianos recently, within the last two years. In particular, a person who has tuned several new Bostons, and could describe any general experience.

Thanks.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926

David,

The dealer is a dealer, the store is two hours away from my home and the associate has been roughed up by the dealer's claim that the instability is her fault. Hearing that others have had difficulty with New Bostaon pianos would give a broader context to her experience. One college tech has privately told me of difficulty with Bostons.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926

Original Message:
Sent: 12-30-2015 18:36
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Tuning Stability in New Boston Pianos

Ed -

Two comments raise questions:

We are working with the Associate on tuning lever technique, humidity monitoring, etc.

What does it mean that "we are working..."?  Why doesn't "we" agree to try tuning piano to see what "we" thinks?

The dealer claims that "those old problems have been solved in the new, improved Bostons."

How does the dealer know this?  Does he, himself, tune?  Did Steinway tell him those 'old' problems were solved?  What were they, and what was changed? Does he know this?

If I were familiar with a lot of new Bostons, I'd probably be doing dealer prep or in an institution that had taken delivery of these.  In either case, I would probably be somewhat disinclined to aggressively share this experience unless I had already run into dead-ends in trying to resolve them first with the manufacturer.   If the dealer is genuinely concerned, he should pay you to assess.

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565

Original Message------

David,

The dealer is a dealer, the store is two hours away from my home and the associate has been roughed up by the dealer's claim that the instability is her fault. Hearing that others have had difficulty with New Bostaon pianos would give a broader context to her experience. One college tech has privately told me of difficulty with Bostons.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926
------------------------------

Ed -

If the dealer is, in fact, a 'dealer', then, whether or not a few other technicians concur that there are some legitimate issues won't make much difference, especially assuming he can find someone who is able to wrestle the beast into some sort of submission, at an agreeable price.  If the 'beating up' is the issue for the tech, then it can be seen as just part of the learning process.  In this case, as in others, if a client proves abusive, one needs to be able to walk away, with ones self respect intact.   If the dealer can find a someone who can fulfill his expectations, then that becomes the bottom line, for him.

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565

Original Message:
Sent: 12-30-2015 19:44
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Tuning Stability in New Boston Pianos

David,

The dealer is a dealer, the store is two hours away from my home and the associate has been roughed up by the dealer's claim that the instability is her fault. Hearing that others have had difficulty with New Bostaon pianos would give a broader context to her experience. One college tech has privately told me of difficulty with Bostons.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926

David,

I often don't understand why you write what you write.

I choose to be supportive to a beginner who has had a difficult experience and that is all.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926

Original Message:
Sent: 12-30-2015 21:25
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Tuning Stability in New Boston Pianos

Ed -

If the dealer is, in fact, a 'dealer', then, whether or not a few other technicians concur that there are some legitimate issues won't make much difference, especially assuming he can find someone who is able to wrestle the beast into some sort of submission, at an agreeable price.  If the 'beating up' is the issue for the tech, then it can be seen as just part of the learning process.  In this case, as in others, if a client proves abusive, one needs to be able to walk away, with ones self respect intact.   If the dealer can find a someone who can fulfill his expectations, then that becomes the bottom line, for him.

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565

If it is only the Bostons in the store and not other pianos they have tuned, it is the Bostons. Dealer can put up, accept, or find another tuner for the Bostons. 

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
608-518-2441
928-899-7292

Original Message:
Sent: 12-30-2015 21:41
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Tuning Stability in New Boston Pianos

David,

I often don't understand why you write what you write.

I choose to be supportive to a beginner who has had a difficult experience and that is all.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926

And I don't understand why people ask questions like this on the list.
If techs were having 1098 experiences with the Bostons, we would almost
certainly, as with 1098s, have seen a number of complaints. As with most
inexperienced techs, I suspect she's going through memorized motions
that work well enough on most pianos but for some reason don't on new
Bostons. Do you know? On new Bostons, I've found tight pins that
flagpoled badly enough to require some care when tuning them. Not
unusual, and not specific to Bostons. The conditions that the tuner sets
up which keep pianos reasonably in tune until climate change ruins it
are the same in Bostons as in any other piano. I'm sorry she feels
abused, but it's going to happen again somewhere else whether she ever
learns the reason or not. The pianos are the easy part. It's the people
that will kill you.

Has she gone back to address the complaint? She absolutely needs to, and
evaluate what she finds as brutally honestly as she can, even when the
fault does indeed seem to be with her. Meet it head on and fix it if
it's piano or tuner related, and walk away if it's political (or
stupidity). The piano or tuning methods can be fixed.
Ron N


Original Message------

David,

I often don't understand why you write what you write.

I choose to be supportive to a beginner who has had a difficult experience and that is all.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926
------------------------------

Fix with C? Tap still.

Original Message:
Sent: 12-30-2015 22:31
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Tuning Stability in New Boston Pianos

And I don't understand why people ask questions like this on the list.
If techs were having 1098 experiences with the Bostons, we would almost
certainly, as with 1098s, have seen a number of complaints. As with most
inexperienced techs, I suspect she's going through memorized motions
that work well enough on most pianos but for some reason don't on new
Bostons. Do you know? On new Bostons, I've found tight pins that
flagpoled badly enough to require some care when tuning them. Not
unusual, and not specific to Bostons. The conditions that the tuner sets
up which keep pianos reasonably in tune until climate change ruins it
are the same in Bostons as in any other piano. I'm sorry she feels
abused, but it's going to happen again somewhere else whether she ever
learns the reason or not. The pianos are the easy part. It's the people
that will kill you.

Has she gone back to address the complaint? She absolutely needs to, and
evaluate what she finds as brutally honestly as she can, even when the
fault does indeed seem to be with her. Meet it head on and fix it if
it's piano or tuner related, and walk away if it's political (or
stupidity). The piano or tuning methods can be fixed.
Ron N

I often don't understand why you write what you write.

Ed -

While I have no doubt that you are not alone in your bewilderment, I nevertheless wish you had made that a bit clearer at the various moments.  While Ron N may have framed the thoughts much more fulsomely and  coherently , I suspect they are basically the same.  I neither take issue with your supportive impulse nor seek to appear, in turn, unsupportive. I was simply suggesting that the situation, as you've portrayed it, would not be materially altered by the information you sought, in my opinion.  It shouldn't have provoked a personal-ish rebuke.

Never mind.  All will be better in the new year, as always.

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565

Original Message:
Sent: 12-30-2015 21:41
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Tuning Stability in New Boston Pianos

David,

I often don't understand why you write what you write.

I choose to be supportive to a beginner who has had a difficult experience and that is all.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926

Original Message------

David,

The dealer is a dealer, the store is two hours away from my home and the associate has been roughed up by the dealer's claim that the instability is her fault. Hearing that others have had difficulty with New Bostaon pianos would give a broader context to her experience. One college tech has privately told me of difficulty with Bostons.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926
------------------------------

We have received two generous, wise, detailed and helpful replies from respected and experienced technicians who preferred to answer privately.

No further responses are needed.

Thank you, and happy new year to all!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926

Original Message:
Sent: 12-30-2015 08:42
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Tuning Stability in New Boston Pianos

Greetings!

One of our Associates is having difficulty getting stable results in floor tunings of new Boston pianos, both vertical and grand. Can anyone share experience with these pianos?

Thank you...and many happy tunings in 2016!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926
------------------------------

Ed -

Though you indicated that no further information on this question is needed, I'm nevertheless replying now, rather than have this hang over (not hangover) into the new year.  I'm glad you got some satisfactory responses and I hope both you and she (and the dealer) see a positive outcome.  There are a couple of aspects that remain tentative:  Mostly, you chose to ignore or mischaracterize a number of reasonable points, raised by me and others.  Also, as it turns out, my earlier comment: "... I would probably be somewhat disinclined to aggressively share this experience...", seems to have been the operative mechanism, as the responses that you find productive were, in fact, offered privately.  This poses an unfortunate dynamic: you have submitted a public question but have garnered proprietary responses.  Here then, is a suggestion, offered constructively:

Can you find a way to convey information that might benefit the entire community, without compromising the confidentiality of the contributors? 

- 

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2015 05:36
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Tuning Stability in New Boston Pianos

We have received two generous, wise, detailed and helpful replies from respected and experienced technicians who preferred to answer privately.

No further responses are needed.

Thank you, and happy new year to all!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926

Those people are reading this list, and can share as they see fit.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2015 09:35
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Tuning Stability in New Boston Pianos

Ed -

Though you indicated that no further information on this question is needed, I'm nevertheless replying now, rather than have this hang over (not hangover) into the new year.  I'm glad you got some satisfactory responses and I hope both you and she (and the dealer) see a positive outcome.  There are a couple of aspects that remain tentative:  Mostly, you chose to ignore or mischaracterize a number of reasonable points, raised by me and others.  Also, as it turns out, my earlier comment: "... I would probably be somewhat disinclined to aggressively share this experience...", seems to have been the operative mechanism, as the responses that you find productive were, in fact, offered privately.  This poses an unfortunate dynamic: you have submitted a public question but have garnered proprietary responses.  Here then, is a suggestion, offered constructively:

Can you find a way to convey information that might benefit the entire community, without compromising the confidentiality of the contributors? 

- 

------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565

Right. If they saw fit, they would have posted publicly in the first
place. I agree with David. Private replies defeat the purpose of a
public forum and destroy any general educational value it might
otherwise generate.
Ron N


Original Message------

Those people are reading this list, and can share as they see fit.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926
------------------------------

For the record, I have been tuning several Boston GP 156 grands and
several Boston uprights at a learning institution for over four years.

This is how these Bostons feel to me:

1. The tuning pins are mushy feeling.
2. The friction between the tuning pin and the front termination point
is so little that the slightest movement of the tuning pin changes
pitch.
3. Bumping the tuning hammer slightly up and down/sharp and flat to
determine how stable the front duplex friction is very hard on these
pianos. Any movement of the hammer/tuning pin seems to produce a pitch
change.

- The four grands are in practice rooms with windows, and an HVAC system
controlled by the occupant. None of the units have humidity systems
installed.

- The uprights are in classrooms with no humidity system installed, some
are near windows, some are not. All classrooms have HVAC that is
controlled by a remote authority unaware of immediate environmental
variances. One of the uprights is in a small faculty member's room.

- During the school year the HVAC system is turned off on the weekends
to the classrooms and recital halls. Temperature and humidity change
during the weekend a lot, from what I can guess the few times I have
been there tuning on a Saturday or Sunday, but I can't give you definite
values.

-Temperature/humidity in the practice rooms and the classrooms ranges
from 80F/65% to 63F/19% from summer to winter.

The grands in the practice rooms go sharp and flat 20 cents every six
months. The classroom pianos are more stable, yet there are times when
they move much more dramatically than at other times. I don't leave a
recordable hygrometer anywhere in the school, so I don't have sequential
humidity data which is probably the next step in quantifying what
changes affect these Bostons so much.

The Boston upright in the faculty member's office goes wildly out of
tune every six months. Nothing I have done has stopped this madness.

Comparatively, there are Hamilton uprights and Mason & Hamlin uprights
in practice rooms in similar environments that are very stable. These
pianos do not change in pitch like the Bostons do. There is a Kawai baby
grand in one of the practice rooms that is fairly stable as well. The
Kawai

I began to suspect that Boston grands and uprights were having a hard
time in this environment when they continued to respond the same way
even after I did a lot of exploring and experimenting...stretching,
pulling, bending, front and rear duplex stretching, rear duplex tuning
to equalize tension, etc. I seem to have made some difference in the
uprights because some of them are actually fairly stable at times. Then
again, I go back in six months and they surprise me with how far out
they are.

That has been my experience with Bostons in the university where I tune.
I don't think they are the best choice for the environment where they
live.

-John Parham


Original Message------

We have received two generous, wise, detailed and helpful replies from respected and experienced technicians who preferred to answer privately.

No further responses are needed.

Thank you, and happy new year to all!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926
------------------------------

Original Message------

For the record, I have been tuning several Boston GP 156 grands and
several Boston uprights at a learning institution for over four years.

This is how these Bostons feel to me:

1. The tuning pins are mushy feeling.
2. The friction between the tuning pin and the front termination point
is so little that the slightest movement of the tuning pin changes
pitch.
3. Bumping the tuning hammer slightly up and down/sharp and flat to
determine how stable the front duplex friction is very hard on these
pianos. Any movement of the hammer/tuning pin seems to produce a pitch
change.

- The four grands are in practice rooms with windows, and an HVAC system
controlled by the occupant. None of the units have humidity systems
installed.

- The uprights are in classrooms with no humidity system installed, some
are near windows, some are not. All classrooms have HVAC that is
controlled by a remote authority unaware of immediate environmental
variances. One of the uprights is in a small faculty member's room.

- During the school year the HVAC system is turned off on the weekends
to the classrooms and recital halls. Temperature and humidity change
during the weekend a lot, from what I can guess the few times I have
been there tuning on a Saturday or Sunday, but I can't give you definite
values.

-Temperature/humidity in the practice rooms and the classrooms ranges
from 80F/65% to 63F/19% from summer to winter.

The grands in the practice rooms go sharp and flat 20 cents every six
months. The classroom pianos are more stable, yet there are times when
they move much more dramatically than at other times. I don't leave a
recordable hygrometer anywhere in the school, so I don't have sequential
humidity data which is probably the next step in quantifying what
changes affect these Bostons so much.

The Boston upright in the faculty member's office goes wildly out of
tune every six months. Nothing I have done has stopped this madness.

Comparatively, there are Hamilton uprights and Mason & Hamlin uprights
in practice rooms in similar environments that are very stable. These
pianos do not change in pitch like the Bostons do. There is a Kawai baby
grand in one of the practice rooms that is fairly stable as well. The
Kawai

I began to suspect that Boston grands and uprights were having a hard
time in this environment when they continued to respond the same way
even after I did a lot of exploring and experimenting...stretching,
pulling, bending, front and rear duplex stretching, rear duplex tuning
to equalize tension, etc. I seem to have made some difference in the
uprights because some of them are actually fairly stable at times. Then
again, I go back in six months and they surprise me with how far out
they are.

That has been my experience with Bostons in the university where I tune.
I don't think they are the best choice for the environment where they
live.

-John Parham

I think we would all agree that new pianos go through a "settling period", during which time the tuning stability is less than desirable.  I've heard people describe this period in number-of-tunings ("a piano won't stabilize until it has been tuned 5 times") or in absolute time (my own experience has been anywhere from 6 months to a year or two).  

That said, my experience has been that new Boston pianos do take longer to stabilize than other brands.  I do lots of floor tunings of Boston uprights.  I've come back to these just a couple of months after tuning to find them pretty wildly out of tune (pitch dropping by as much as 15c or 20c, and lots of unisons out).  I consider the showroom environment to be "ok" for stability based on the fact that I don't see this issue in other brands.  I've tried different hammer techniques, including absolutely pounding the notes, to no avail. The problem is not unique to the showroom, continuing in the customer's home. 

------------------------------
Rob Mitchell, RPT
San Francisco CA
415-994-1030

Original Message:
Sent: 12-30-2015 08:42
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Tuning Stability in New Boston Pianos

Greetings!

One of our Associates is having difficulty getting stable results in floor tunings of new Boston pianos, both vertical and grand. Can anyone share experience with these pianos?

Thank you...and many happy tunings in 2016!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926
------------------------------

Give tightening the coils on the pin a try. Can't hurt, might help.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2015 11:38
From: Rob Mitchell
Subject: Tuning Stability in New Boston Pianos

I think we would all agree that new pianos go through a "settling period", during which time the tuning stability is less than desirable.  I've heard people describe this period in number-of-tunings ("a piano won't stabilize until it has been tuned 5 times") or in absolute time (my own experience has been anywhere from 6 months to a year or two).  

That said, my experience has been that new Boston pianos do take longer to stabilize than other brands.  I do lots of floor tunings of Boston uprights.  I've come back to these just a couple of months after tuning to find them pretty wildly out of tune (pitch dropping by as much as 15c or 20c, and lots of unisons out).  I consider the showroom environment to be "ok" for stability based on the fact that I don't see this issue in other brands.  I've tried different hammer techniques, including absolutely pounding the notes, to no avail. The problem is not unique to the showroom, continuing in the customer's home. 

------------------------------
Rob Mitchell, RPT
San Francisco CA
415-994-1030

Jon,

Yes, good point. Here's what I have done to try to stabilize my Bostons.

1. Tighten beckets by pinching with pliers.
2. Compacting coils from bottom up and vice versa with coil lifter.
3. Cinch coils around the tuning pin, like you showed us with your
modified tool a few years ago...which works wonders, by the way.
4. Use flat pliers to pinch the string around the hitch pin.
5. Seat string behind the hitch pin.
6. Pinch rear duplex area with flat pliers in case that string length
never got stretched from the beginning. If the duplex bars allowed for
tuning them, meaning they were parallel to the rear bridge pins, I tuned
them to the same pitch. I don't believe in tuning rear duplexes for the
sake of adding complimentary partials, but I do believe in tuning them
to help balance the tension between the speaking length and the rear
duplex. If there is an imbalance between the two, one side or the other
is going to move and the string will go out of tune.
7. Tighten bend around front bridge pin.
8. At front termination point lift up (or push up from underneath) to
tighten bend at agraffe or at pressure bar.
9. Squeeze front duplex area between capo bar and the half-round in
front of the tuning pin, in case that section has not stretched...which
is highly unlikely...but I don't want to leave any length untampered
with.
10. I haven't squeezed the section between the tuning pin and the half
round yet, come to think about it, but maybe I should. I have, however,
forced felt under this section in one other piano where there was no
felt to provide friction. The piano became more stable.

These are the stability points I have addressed on these Bostons over
the past four years. I'm waiting for them to say, "Thank you for helping
me stay in tune."

Hopeful,
John Parham


Original Message------

Give tightening the coils on the pin a try. Can't hurt, might help.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
------------------------------

Putting together some good advice with personal experience:

Horace Greeley once said, approximately, that in floor tuning, if a piano comes out of the crate sharp, don't lower the pitch.

Chris Soliday said that a piano, post pitch lowering is more likely to become unstable than post pitch raising.

Simiilarly, I have found that pianos which had to be brought to pitch for performance, up and down, in ever varying humidity, go the most wild in winter.

Whatever pressure or tension the strings are applying to the wood structures will not change significantly when the humidity changes. The wood, however, will compress more easily as it dries under pressure of the strings, but will not so easily move the strings back as it regains moisture. Left alone over the years, the piano does not fully regain pitch in the humid seasons. Each dry season pitch drop is a little more than the wet season pitch gain.

Thus we have the argument to leave the pitch high coming out of the crate and keep it high on the showroom floor.

And also to let the pitch rise in the practice rooms in the wet season, and to pull the pianos up to pitch in the dry seasons, if they are below 440Hz.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2015 20:07
From: John Parham
Subject: Tuning Stability in New Boston Pianos

Jon,

Yes, good point. Here's what I have done to try to stabilize my Bostons.

1. Tighten beckets by pinching with pliers.
2. Compacting coils from bottom up and vice versa with coil lifter.
3. Cinch coils around the tuning pin, like you showed us with your
modified tool a few years ago...which works wonders, by the way.
4. Use flat pliers to pinch the string around the hitch pin.
5. Seat string behind the hitch pin.
6. Pinch rear duplex area with flat pliers in case that string length
never got stretched from the beginning. If the duplex bars allowed for
tuning them, meaning they were parallel to the rear bridge pins, I tuned
them to the same pitch. I don't believe in tuning rear duplexes for the
sake of adding complimentary partials, but I do believe in tuning them
to help balance the tension between the speaking length and the rear
duplex. If there is an imbalance between the two, one side or the other
is going to move and the string will go out of tune.
7. Tighten bend around front bridge pin.
8. At front termination point lift up (or push up from underneath) to
tighten bend at agraffe or at pressure bar.
9. Squeeze front duplex area between capo bar and the half-round in
front of the tuning pin, in case that section has not stretched...which
is highly unlikely...but I don't want to leave any length untampered
with.
10. I haven't squeezed the section between the tuning pin and the half
round yet, come to think about it, but maybe I should. I have, however,
forced felt under this section in one other piano where there was no
felt to provide friction. The piano became more stable.

These are the stability points I have addressed on these Bostons over
the past four years. I'm waiting for them to say, "Thank you for helping
me stay in tune."

Hopeful,
John Parham

John P,

It sounds like that all the coil tightening, massaging etc didn't really buy you a significant improvement. Am I correct in my reading of the end of your post, or did you settle these things out a bit?

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2015 20:07
From: John Parham
Subject: Tuning Stability in New Boston Pianos

Jon,

Yes, good point. Here's what I have done to try to stabilize my Bostons.

1. Tighten beckets by pinching with pliers.
2. Compacting coils from bottom up and vice versa with coil lifter.
3. Cinch coils around the tuning pin, like you showed us with your
modified tool a few years ago...which works wonders, by the way.
4. Use flat pliers to pinch the string around the hitch pin.
5. Seat string behind the hitch pin.
6. Pinch rear duplex area with flat pliers in case that string length
never got stretched from the beginning. If the duplex bars allowed for
tuning them, meaning they were parallel to the rear bridge pins, I tuned
them to the same pitch. I don't believe in tuning rear duplexes for the
sake of adding complimentary partials, but I do believe in tuning them
to help balance the tension between the speaking length and the rear
duplex. If there is an imbalance between the two, one side or the other
is going to move and the string will go out of tune.
7. Tighten bend around front bridge pin.
8. At front termination point lift up (or push up from underneath) to
tighten bend at agraffe or at pressure bar.
9. Squeeze front duplex area between capo bar and the half-round in
front of the tuning pin, in case that section has not stretched...which
is highly unlikely...but I don't want to leave any length untampered
with.
10. I haven't squeezed the section between the tuning pin and the half
round yet, come to think about it, but maybe I should. I have, however,
forced felt under this section in one other piano where there was no
felt to provide friction. The piano became more stable.

These are the stability points I have addressed on these Bostons over
the past four years. I'm waiting for them to say, "Thank you for helping
me stay in tune."

Hopeful,
John Parham

On 12-3-2014  the following was posted on Pianoworld:

Are you aware that some pianos use rock maple plugs for the pin bushings? These are plugs driven into the plate, after which the bushing and pinblock are drilled at the same time.

With this design the string tension is born directly to the plate at the bushings, and as a result the pinblock is being pushed away from the flange by the string tension. If the pinblock screws were loosened the pins will pivot at the bushings, and this causes the bottom of the pin to push towards the pianist.

In this type of piano there is no advantage to fitting the pinblock to the flange. So check with the manufacturer to see how theirs are set up, and if the bushings are hard maple.  - Don Mannino

I have compared tuning pin feel to block fit on  135 grand pianos made by different factories, and found there is a correlation between lousy feeling tuning pins combined with  initial instability when new,  and gaps between the block and the plate flange.  Where there is a block to flange gap, the tuning pins are more likely to feel lousy and be difficult to set.  The blocks are either not fit to the plate flange, or string tension pulls the block away from the plate flange - or both.  The pin block "floats" The predominant country of origin is Indonesia, with lessor numbers in descending order from  China, Korea, Japan, and  Europe.  The piano models include both entry level and advanced level pianos.   

My theory is this (and I'm not referring to one brand in particular, rather a group of different piano makers): 

The maple dowel stuffed in the plate hole has to be very tight, or it would spin when drilled.   The bushing effectively  becomes a "pin block extension", holding the tuning pin just as tight as the pin block below it.  When drilled, the bushing hole is aligned with the pin block hole, but once tension is added, the "floating pin block" sometimes moves, creating binding on the tuning pin, because the bushing hole and pin block hole are no longer aligned.  This binding makes the tuning pin too tight, it flexes too much,  and feels either mushy, or the pin jumps in 20 cent increments.  Either way, the lousy feeling tuning pin is difficult to set, and tuning takes an extra 15-30 minutes if a tuner takes the time to properly set the pin.  The "floating pin block" continues to move, at each tuning (during which time tunings may not hold well)  until after about 6 tunings, when it finally finds a point of equalization, and the pins have worn down an area in the block and bushing where their torque is finally easier to set.   Move the pin out of it's comfort zone, and it sometimes binds again.

Sometimes the tension of several neighboring strings is passed though one tuning pin.  This occurs if drilling does not exactly match the plate hole pattern.   The result is instability as tuning adjacent pins knocks previously tuned pins out of tune.

My research indicates that deeply countersunk screw holes,  dummy pins passed through the plate and block, and screwing down the block to the rim at both ends do little to prevent the floating block from moving and binding tuning pins.  I've also noted that the same makers with issues on grand pianos also have issues on vertical pianos. 

It's important to note this is an issue for tuners, not for the piano owner, as after a number of  tunings, the affected pianos are more stable and are easier to tune.  The floating block eventually stabilizes. In fact, it can be very stable after a few years. In some cases, the pins are never really easy to set - but they eventually become more manageable.  The piano eventually performs as intended.  A piano with block to flange gaps is NOT defective.

I would, however recommend to piano makers to consider discontinuing the above "floating block method" and revert to the old system of passing string tension from the pin, to the block, to the plate flange.  In my opinion, the old system stabilizes sooner, and results in a better feeling tuning pin for the life of  the piano. 

------------------------------
Bob Maret, RPT
UCF - Orlando FL

Original Message:
Sent: 01-01-2016 10:25
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Tuning Stability in New Boston Pianos

John P,

It sounds like that all the coil tightening, massaging etc didn't really buy you a significant improvement. Am I correct in my reading of the end of your post, or did you settle these things out a bit?

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

<The bushing effectively  becomes a "pin block extension"

An interesting take on this issue.

I have an Indonesian Yamaha GP-1 which I have been trying to stabilize for 2 years or so. Its 10 years old at this point, or so, I think. It does not have the MO of the excessively low friction front bearings that the Bostons seem to exhibit, but is wildly unstable despite a friendlier  front segment.

In trying to suss out the issue(s) I tried the hypothesis that the strings were lousy steel. But the high quality strings had no effect on this stability issue.Re your post, in the process of a partial restring, I was fighting throughout with tuning pin bushings that were mushy, cracked, and definitely not maple. They would climb out of the hole spin and fall apart, even though the pin was not being turned multiple rotations.

The problem I see with your hypothesis though, is that you said grands as well as uprights exhibit the same stability issue in these pianos. But an upright pinblock is much more integral to the case structure, and I don't see the same forces translating on a bushed upright and bushed grand block. Or at least, maybe the forces are similar as far as pivoting at the plate,  but the block is well glued by necessity to the main frame, making it more immoblie than a grand block.  I mostly don't take uprights apart, so I'm not familiar with plate to block flange or no-flange...but is seems the forces on the block, and connection the block has to the case frame are qualitatively different between the grand and upright...no? 

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 01-01-2016 13:18
From: Robert Maret
Subject: Tuning Stability in New Boston Pianos

On 12-3-2014  the following was posted on Pianoworld:

Are you aware that some pianos use rock maple plugs for the pin bushings? These are plugs driven into the plate, after which the bushing and pinblock are drilled at the same time.

With this design the string tension is born directly to the plate at the bushings, and as a result the pinblock is being pushed away from the flange by the string tension. If the pinblock screws were loosened the pins will pivot at the bushings, and this causes the bottom of the pin to push towards the pianist.

In this type of piano there is no advantage to fitting the pinblock to the flange. So check with the manufacturer to see how theirs are set up, and if the bushings are hard maple.  - Don Mannino

I have compared tuning pin feel to block fit on  135 grand pianos and found there is a correlation between lousy feeling tuning pins combined with  initial instability when new,  and gaps between the block and the plate flange.  Where there is a block to flange gap, the tuning pins are more likely to feel lousy and be difficult to set.  The blocks are either not fit to the plate flange, or string tension pulls the block away from the plate flange - or both.  The pin block "floats" The predominant country of origin is Indonesia, with lessor numbers in descending order from  China, Korea, Japan, and  Europe.  The piano models include both entry level and advanced level pianos.   

My theory is this: 

The maple dowel stuffed in the plate hole has to be very tight, or it would spin when drilled.   The bushing effectively  becomes a "pin block extension", holding the tuning pin just as tight as the pin block below it.  When drilled, the bushing hole is aligned with the pin block hole, but once tension is added, the "floating pin block" sometimes moves, creating binding on the tuning pin, because the bushing hole and pin block hole are no longer aligned.  This binding makes the tuning pin too tight, it flexes too much,  and feels either mushy, or the pin jumps in 20 cent increments.  Either way, the lousy feeling tuning pin is difficult to set, and tuning takes an extra 15-30 minutes if a tuner takes the time to properly set the pin.  The "floating pin block" continues to move, at each tuning (during which time tunings may not hold well)  until after about 6 tunings, when it finally finds a point of equalization, and the pins have worn down an area in the block and bushing where their torque is finally easier to set.   Move the pin out of it's comfort zone, and it sometimes binds again.

Sometimes the tension of several neighboring strings is passed though one tuning pin.  This occurs if drilling does not exactly match the plate hole pattern.   The result is instability as tuning adjacent pins knocks previously tuned pins out of tune.

My research indicates that deeply countersunk screw holes,  dummy pins passed through the plate and block, and screwing down the block to the rim at both ends do little to prevent the floating block from moving and binding tuning pins.  I've also noted that the same makers with issues on grand pianos also have issues on vertical pianos. 

It's important to note this is an issue for tuners, not for the piano owner, as after a number of  tunings, the affected pianos are more stable and are easier to tune.  The floating block eventually stabilizes. In fact, it can be very stable after a few years. In some cases, the pins are never really easy to set - but they eventually become more manageable.  The piano eventually performs as intended.  A piano with block to flange gaps is NOT defective.

I would, however recommend to piano makers to consider discontinuing the above "floating block method" and revert to the old system of passing string tension from the pin, to the block, to the plate flange.  In my opinion, the old system stabilizes sooner, and results in a better feeling tuning pin for the life of  the piano. 

------------------------------
Bob Maret, RPT
UCF - Orlando FL

add to that Indonesian GP-1 the scaling was not awful, but I re-scaled to see if that was involved...to no avail

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 01-01-2016 15:10
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Tuning Stability in New Boston Pianos

<The bushing effectively  becomes a "pin block extension"

An interesting take on this issue.

I have an Indonesian Yamaha GP-1 which I have been trying to stabilize for 2 years or so. Its 10 years old at this point, or so, I think. It does not have the MO of the excessively low friction front bearings that the Bostons seem to exhibit, but is wildly unstable despite a friendlier  front segment.

In trying to suss out the issue(s) I tried the hypothesis that the strings were lousy steel. But the high quality strings had no effect on this stability issue.Re your post, in the process of a partial restring, I was fighting throughout with tuning pin bushings that were mushy, cracked, and definitely not maple. They would climb out of the hole spin and fall apart, even though the pin was not being turned multiple rotations.

The problem I see with your hypothesis though, is that you said grands as well as uprights exhibit the same stability issue in these pianos. But an upright pinblock is much more integral to the case structure, and I don't see the same forces translating on a bushed upright and bushed grand block. Or at least, maybe the forces are similar as far as pivoting at the plate,  but the block is well glued by necessity to the main frame, making it more immoblie than a grand block.  I mostly don't take uprights apart, so I'm not familiar with plate to block flange or no-flange...but is seems the forces on the block, and connection the block has to the case frame are qualitatively different between the grand and upright...no? 

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

I've heard the story about pins levering the block away from the flange
for a lot of years now, and it never has made a lick of sense in the
real physical world. With the bushing as a fulcrum, the pins would still
have to pivot in the block for the block to be levered back. They don't,
so this levering back doesn't happen except possibly by a very tiny
amount allowed by the crushing of the top layer of the block. This is
really simple geometry. If the pinblock did lever back on a fulcrum of
maple, it would also do it on a fulcrum of cast iron, like all those
Baldwins and Steinways with virtually all of the pins riding on the
plate. It doesn't, or we would be hearing all about how it's not
necessary to fit the pinblock to these piano's plates either. The
scenario is physical nonsense. The block is pulled toward the hitches by
string tension until it is supported by the plate flange or by the pins
bearing on the bushings or bearing on the plate. The block is not at any
time levered toward the front of the piano. Nor does it rotate, which is
another often heard impossible description. It's clamped to the plate
webbing, and has no place to rotate to.
Ron N


Original Message------

<The bushing effectively  becomes a "pin block extension"

An interesting take on this issue.

I have an Indonesian Yamaha GP-1 which I have been trying to stabilize for 2 years or so. Its 10 years old at this point, or so, I think. It does not have the MO of the excessively low friction front bearings that the Bostons seem to exhibit, but is wildly unstable despite a friendlier  front segment.

In trying to suss out the issue(s) I tried the hypothesis that the strings were lousy steel. But the high quality strings had no effect on this stability issue.Re your post, in the process of a partial restring, I was fighting throughout with tuning pin bushings that were mushy, cracked, and definitely not maple. They would climb out of the hole spin and fall apart, even though the pin was not being turned multiple rotations.

The problem I see with your hypothesis though, is that you said grands as well as uprights exhibit the same stability issue in these pianos. But an upright pinblock is much more integral to the case structure, and I don't see the same forces translating on a bushed upright and bushed grand block. Or at least, maybe the forces are similar as far as pivoting at the plate,  but the block is well glued by necessity to the main frame, making it more immoblie than a grand block.  I mostly don't take uprights apart, so I'm not familiar with plate to block flange or no-flange...but is seems the forces on the block, and connection the block has to the case frame are qualitatively different between the grand and upright...no? 

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message------

I've heard the story about pins levering the block away from the flange
for a lot of years now, and it never has made a lick of sense in the
real physical world. With the bushing as a fulcrum, the pins would still
have to pivot in the block for the block to be levered back. They don't,
so this levering back doesn't happen except possibly by a very tiny
amount allowed by the crushing of the top layer of the block. This is
really simple geometry. If the pinblock did lever back on a fulcrum of
maple, it would also do it on a fulcrum of cast iron, like all those
Baldwins and Steinways with virtually all of the pins riding on the
plate. It doesn't, or we would be hearing all about how it's not
necessary to fit the pinblock to these piano's plates either. The
scenario is physical nonsense. The block is pulled toward the hitches by
string tension until it is supported by the plate flange or by the pins
bearing on the bushings or bearing on the plate. The block is not at any
time levered toward the front of the piano. Nor does it rotate, which is
another often heard impossible description. It's clamped to the plate
webbing, and has no place to rotate to.
Ron N

If the pin was pivoting in the block to any substantial degree, it would
leave an obviously oval hole in the block. I've seen a lot of ovalled
out bushings, but it's not typically obvious in take out pinblocks.

Also, string tension is always in one direction. It doesn't change 180
degrees with the seasons, so how is a gap going to affect stability in
the long term? A few cycles, and it should reach the limit of what it
can do to the tuning and be pretty stable after that. Why and how could
such things as sloppy coils, loose plate bolts, and ill fitted pinblocks
continue to cause instability after they have settled to where they are
stable? What is the reset mechanism?

Rather than starting with an answer and trying to make data support it,
I started with data and found the answer didn't really work.
Ron N


Original Message------

Ron,

  How do you know that the pins aren't pivoting in the block? It certainly seems plausible that they don't and I would have thought the same thing, as well. But the experiment that the Appleton chapter did which was published in the NOV15 Journal gave some unexpected indications that the tuning pin being measured did actually flex within the block. 

Since that episode wasn't really targeted to measuring tuning pin movement within the block, I'd like to see more specific, targeted measurements in another "PTG Labs" episode either revisited by the Appleton chapter or with another chapter picking up the ball. The measurement equipment is available. 

You might have a look at the data and consider what the implications may be. 

--Keith

Through the years, techs who find pianos not staying in tune as well as
they think should be the case, typically check the pinblock to flange
fit and, finding a gap, proclaim that gap to be the cause. Pretty much
everyone did this and still do. I did what everyone else didn't. I
checked the pinblock to flange fit in pianos which stayed in tune quite
well and found as many and as wide an incidence of gaps as in the
unstable pianos. I found no rational correlation at all between tuning
stability and pinblock to plate flange fit. This was over two or three
years of checking every single grand I tuned, so I had a reasonably
extensive sampling to work with. I glued and wedged a couple of unstable
pianos with gaps, and it didn't seem to make much if any difference.
That was before I learned to tune in the attack, so the problem was
likely as not my lack of ability to deal with whatever was causing the
instability. Tuning instability became less and less a problem through
the years as I learned to work the strings in the tuning process, and I
quit checking flange fit altogether. I also quit checking plate bolts
except possibly in a neglected piano getting a major pitch raise.
Ron N


Original Message------

I've heard the story about pins levering the block away from the flange
for a lot of years now, and it never has made a lick of sense in the
real physical world. With the bushing as a fulcrum, the pins would still
have to pivot in the block for the block to be levered back. They don't,
so this levering back doesn't happen except possibly by a very tiny
amount allowed by the crushing of the top layer of the block. This is
really simple geometry. If the pinblock did lever back on a fulcrum of
maple, it would also do it on a fulcrum of cast iron, like all those
Baldwins and Steinways with virtually all of the pins riding on the
plate. It doesn't, or we would be hearing all about how it's not
necessary to fit the pinblock to these piano's plates either. The
scenario is physical nonsense. The block is pulled toward the hitches by
string tension until it is supported by the plate flange or by the pins
bearing on the bushings or bearing on the plate. The block is not at any
time levered toward the front of the piano. Nor does it rotate, which is
another often heard impossible description. It's clamped to the plate
webbing, and has no place to rotate to.
Ron N

Jim,

Thanks for your question.

I'm reticent to make a causality claim because of the variables I did
not control, mainly temperature/humidity history between my visits. If I
were forced to make a statement based on my perception of my efforts,
here's what I would say.

1. The Boston upright in the faculty member's 8'x12' office with no
window, but with a user-controlled heat/ac unit, still goes wildly out
of tune during seasonal changes. Humidity/temperature is probably the
major culprit here.
2. The classroom Bostons have stabilized nicely. They don't go wildly
out of tune like they used to, but there are months when they are
disappointingly out of tune (meaning A440 is fairly close but unisons
and octaves are out).
3. The practice room Bostons have settled a bit. It's like what I have
done has made as much difference as a person can make, but the heat,
cold and open windows trump John Parham's efforts.

Again, I can't make causality statements because of variables I did not
account for, but my efforts seem to have made enough difference to
justify the effort.

-John Parham


Original Message------

John P,

It sounds like that all the coil tightening, massaging etc didn't really buy you a significant improvement. Am I correct in my reading of the end of your post, or did you settle these things out a bit?

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Jim - to clarify - out of the hundreds of vertical pianos I've tuned this year, I logged only 14 with hard to set pins - a far smaller percentage than grands.  But the makers who's grand pianos have tuning pin feel issues feature prominently in my short list of vertical pianos.  I think the block in verticals is less likely to move or twist, in a vertical because it's sandwiched between two parallel planes - the plate and the back - and hopefully glued to the back as well as screwed. If it's supported by the back posts, that would be a third plane of support.

Ron - the movement of the pin block is likely quite small - just enough to increase pressure on the tuning pins and bind them between the conflicting planes of the bushing (pin block extension) and the hole in the pin block.  It's more likely that the block itself, is simply slapped in place without fitting it at all to the flange.  Most common is a good block to flange fit at the bass, where the flange is more or less straight and easy to fit and there is almost always a gap at the s curve at the bass/tenor break, and zero coverage from there to the high treble.  In this scenario - the bass pins tune pretty well, while treble pins are hard to set.  The next common scenario is some fit in the treble with a  gap in the bass.   The last scenario is a gap from bass to treble.  There is almost never a good fit at the s curve - but if the rest of the block is fit well, a gap there is ok, in my opinion.

Unlike the vertical - the grand block with a gap at the plate flange has only one plane of contact for support.  This does not appear to be enough.  The fit to the plate flange is the second plane of support.  Omit the support of the plate flange while providing a pivot point at the tuning pin/bushing contact, and the block can move, and when it moves, the tuning pins bind and are hard to set. Unless that block is held rock tight with the screws, string tension will move it.

I did find a stencil brand with a 1/4" gap that is filled with some type of glue or epoxy.  Filling the gap seemed to help with stability, though I've only seen 3 of those so far.

I tuned a cheaper grand (not a Boston or Kawai) that was still unstable after several tunings.  It would go out of tune during a tuning, even though pitch was close.  There was zero block to flange contact and the block seemed to move during tuning.  I glued and banged in some shims in the gap every 4 inches, and tightened the screws I could access, and initial results are stability during tuning seems better, but it's too soon to be conclusive.  The feel of the pins is still not great.  

Last month I struggled to set pins on a high end piano (not a Boston) while the client sat next to me on a bar stool.  The pins were so tight, I was turning them back and forth 3 times with my lever at full extension before going for the set - the client watching my every move.  When finished after 90 minutes of hell, shoulder aching,  I pulled the action and sure enough - a big honking gap from block to flange, end to end.  No block to flange contact anywhere.  The block was screwed into the rim at both ends.  Binding pins because the unsupported block moved?    In the past, I'd tag this piano "don't tune again"  but experience has shown me that in a few more tunings and some more back and forth with the pins,  it will settle in, and be easier to tune, and it will be a wonderful piano,  and that's what I told the client. 

An inexperienced tuner will likely have a hard time dealing with pins that don't set easily.  Further, it can take a few tunings for the strings and block to stabilize in a new piano. 

My experience with Boston grand pianos is that initially they can be difficult to tune, but after a number of tunings, the pins get easier to set, and they become stable.  They are wonderful pianos, and the owners love them. 

My experience with Boston uprights is that I have 21 Boston 118 S at the university that are now 10 years old.  They change pitch twice as many cents as a Steinway grand when in the same room and subject to humidity swings.  They are easy to tune. The low bass and high treble are stable in pitch. It's the middle that moves with humidity.   The voicing is wonderful - and still very even with little touch up needed over the years. They have not climbed bright in tone.   The action regulation has also been very good and stable. 

------------------------------
Bob Maret, RPT
UCF - Orlando FL

Original Message:
Sent: 01-01-2016 17:19
From: John Parham
Subject: Tuning Stability in New Boston Pianos

Jim,

Thanks for your question.

I'm reticent to make a causality claim because of the variables I did
not control, mainly temperature/humidity history between my visits. If I
were forced to make a statement based on my perception of my efforts,
here's what I would say.

1. The Boston upright in the faculty member's 8'x12' office with no
window, but with a user-controlled heat/ac unit, still goes wildly out
of tune during seasonal changes. Humidity/temperature is probably the
major culprit here.
2. The classroom Bostons have stabilized nicely. They don't go wildly
out of tune like they used to, but there are months when they are
disappointingly out of tune (meaning A440 is fairly close but unisons
and octaves are out).
3. The practice room Bostons have settled a bit. It's like what I have
done has made as much difference as a person can make, but the heat,
cold and open windows trump John Parham's efforts.

Again, I can't make causality statements because of variables I did not
account for, but my efforts seem to have made enough difference to
justify the effort.

-John Parham

Hi Ed. 

I've been watching this thread develop and I just want to throw in the fact that I was able to walk into a local piano rebuilding shop and see the gap mentioned between the pin block and the flange on a Boston grand.  The piano was in the shop because of tuning instability issues.  I have no idea what year the piano was made.

I'd suggest that if it's just Bostons that the Associate is having issues with, then it's the piano more so than the technician.  I'd be curious as to whether or not there's a gap at the flange on the associated Bostons.  This sort of thing can certainly make a person's tuning credibility go for a walk out the window.

You've  been in business long enough to know that pianos need to be tuned a bunch of times before they really settle down.  Some need it more than others.  I've been tuning for over 45 years now and I still see stability generated from good tuning frequency on ANY PIANO OF ANY AGE  ..........  but like I said, I'm sure you already know that.

Vertical Boston tuning instability issues would pose a whole new set of rules compared to grands.  The first thing I'd start looking at is the integrity of the strung back and it's construction.  Is the plate thinner to cut costs?  Are the back posts a smaller dimension or fit differently to speed up the assembly process?  Was the wood dried appropriately .... and long enough to provide dimensional stability after assembly?  All these things would be hard to chase down.  Good luck.  I'm hoping the scope of this forum can provide input about these pianos in various areas of the globe  ......  some areas being typically dry while others are humid as ever.

I like the tone of Bostons and the feel in the action is quite satisfying but I've heard hurtful reports about their tuning stability from more than one tech  ........  and now with this list and consequential thread, I see the dilemma lives on.  The first thing I tell a customer about a new to them piano is a piano that doesn't stay in tune isn't worth putting any money into.  Once that hurdle is cleared, we're good to go with other improvements.

Happy New Year everyone.

------------------------------
Larry Fisher
Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
Vancouver WA
360-256-2999

Original Message:
Sent: 01-01-2016 17:19
From: John Parham
Subject: Tuning Stability in New Boston Pianos

Jim,

Thanks for your question.

I'm reticent to make a causality claim because of the variables I did
not control, mainly temperature/humidity history between my visits. If I
were forced to make a statement based on my perception of my efforts,
here's what I would say.

1. The Boston upright in the faculty member's 8'x12' office with no
window, but with a user-controlled heat/ac unit, still goes wildly out
of tune during seasonal changes. Humidity/temperature is probably the
major culprit here.
2. The classroom Bostons have stabilized nicely. They don't go wildly
out of tune like they used to, but there are months when they are
disappointingly out of tune (meaning A440 is fairly close but unisons
and octaves are out).
3. The practice room Bostons have settled a bit. It's like what I have
done has made as much difference as a person can make, but the heat,
cold and open windows trump John Parham's efforts.

Again, I can't make causality statements because of variables I did not
account for, but my efforts seem to have made enough difference to
justify the effort.

-John Parham

Larry,

I few years ago I had the opportunity to pull the plate on a Kawai RX-2. The back upper edge of the pinblock had a neatly cut rabbet, and the matching inner corner of the plate had a neatly machined step that fitted into the rabbet, so the plate and pinblock fitted together quite snuggly even before they were screwed together. To be certain of the fit, clearance was left between the rest of the flange and pinblock. I could imagine a technician doing the traditional business card test, inserting eight cards and concluding the block had not been fitted to the flange, when in fact it had been fitted very neatly.

I don't know how the Boston pinblock is fitted to the flange, but it may be done the same way.

I appreciate very much the shared experience. The situation is complex, with pianos made in two locations, Japan and Indonesia, changes in design, and the fact that the discussion covers both grands and verticals. My experiences with a small number of Boston grands has been good. I have only one recent experience with a Boston vertical, and in the two times, it seemed very sensitive to humidity change, but the environment was extreme.

I think we can tell our Associate that she was caught in a perfect storm situation, and should just move on to new experiences. We have arranges opportunities for supervised tuning over the next week. Thanks to all and happy second day of the new year!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926

Original Message:
Sent: 01-02-2016 05:49
From: Larry Fisher
Subject: Tuning Stability in New Boston Pianos

Hi Ed. 

I've been watching this thread develop and I just want to throw in the fact that I was able to walk into a local piano rebuilding shop and see the gap mentioned between the pin block and the flange on a Boston grand.  The piano was in the shop because of tuning instability issues.  I have no idea what year the piano was made.

I'd suggest that if it's just Bostons that the Associate is having issues with, then it's the piano more so than the technician.  I'd be curious as to whether or not there's a gap at the flange on the associated Bostons.  This sort of thing can certainly make a person's tuning credibility go for a walk out the window.

You've  been in business long enough to know that pianos need to be tuned a bunch of times before they really settle down.  Some need it more than others.  I've been tuning for over 45 years now and I still see stability generated from good tuning frequency on ANY PIANO OF ANY AGE  ..........  but like I said, I'm sure you already know that.

Vertical Boston tuning instability issues would pose a whole new set of rules compared to grands.  The first thing I'd start looking at is the integrity of the strung back and it's construction.  Is the plate thinner to cut costs?  Are the back posts a smaller dimension or fit differently to speed up the assembly process?  Was the wood dried appropriately .... and long enough to provide dimensional stability after assembly?  All these things would be hard to chase down.  Good luck.  I'm hoping the scope of this forum can provide input about these pianos in various areas of the globe  ......  some areas being typically dry while others are humid as ever.

I like the tone of Bostons and the feel in the action is quite satisfying but I've heard hurtful reports about their tuning stability from more than one tech  ........  and now with this list and consequential thread, I see the dilemma lives on.  The first thing I tell a customer about a new to them piano is a piano that doesn't stay in tune isn't worth putting any money into.  Once that hurdle is cleared, we're good to go with other improvements.

Happy New Year everyone.

------------------------------
Larry Fisher
Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
Vancouver WA
360-256-2999

I have experienced problems with tuning stability in a Boston vertical. With the eventual installation of a Dampp-Chaser (yes, an old one), the stability issues have largely been mitigated.
Joe Wiencek


Original Message------

Larry,

I few years ago I had the opportunity to pull the plate on a Kawai RX-2. The back upper edge of the pinblock had a neatly cut rabbet, and the matching inner corner of the plate had a neatly machined step that fitted into the rabbet, so the plate and pinblock fitted together quite snuggly even before they were screwed together. To be certain of the fit, clearance was left between the rest of the flange and pinblock. I could imagine a technician doing the traditional business card test, inserting eight cards and concluding the block had not been fitted to the flange, when in fact it had been fitted very neatly.

I don't know how the Boston pinblock is fitted to the flange, but it may be done the same way.

I appreciate very much the shared experience. The situation is complex, with pianos made in two locations, Japan and Indonesia, changes in design, and the fact that the discussion covers both grands and verticals. My experiences with a small number of Boston grands has been good. I have only one recent experience with a Boston vertical, and in the two times, it seemed very sensitive to humidity change, but the environment was extreme.

I think we can tell our Associate that she was caught in a perfect storm situation, and should just move on to new experiences. We have arranges opportunities for supervised tuning over the next week. Thanks to all and happy second day of the new year!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926
------------------------------

Original Message------

Hi Ed. 

I've been watching this thread develop and I just want to throw in the fact that I was able to walk into a local piano rebuilding shop and see the gap mentioned between the pin block and the flange on a Boston grand.  The piano was in the shop because of tuning instability issues.  I have no idea what year the piano was made.

I'd suggest that if it's just Bostons that the Associate is having issues with, then it's the piano more so than the technician.  I'd be curious as to whether or not there's a gap at the flange on the associated Bostons.  This sort of thing can certainly make a person's tuning credibility go for a walk out the window.

You've  been in business long enough to know that pianos need to be tuned a bunch of times before they really settle down.  Some need it more than others.  I've been tuning for over 45 years now and I still see stability generated from good tuning frequency on ANY PIANO OF ANY AGE  ..........  but like I said, I'm sure you already know that.

Vertical Boston tuning instability issues would pose a whole new set of rules compared to grands.  The first thing I'd start looking at is the integrity of the strung back and it's construction.  Is the plate thinner to cut costs?  Are the back posts a smaller dimension or fit differently to speed up the assembly process?  Was the wood dried appropriately .... and long enough to provide dimensional stability after assembly?  All these things would be hard to chase down.  Good luck.  I'm hoping the scope of this forum can provide input about these pianos in various areas of the globe  ......  some areas being typically dry while others are humid as ever.

I like the tone of Bostons and the feel in the action is quite satisfying but I've heard hurtful reports about their tuning stability from more than one tech  ........  and now with this list and consequential thread, I see the dilemma lives on.  The first thing I tell a customer about a new to them piano is a piano that doesn't stay in tune isn't worth putting any money into.  Once that hurdle is cleared, we're good to go with other improvements.

Happy New Year everyone.

------------------------------
Larry Fisher
Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
Vancouver WA
360-256-2999
------------------------------