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5 deg head lever clearance

  • 1.  5 deg head lever clearance

    Posted 05-04-2016 17:14

    I'm seriously considering having Charles Faulk make me a lever...15" overall length, low profile straight-ish type handle, rather than the high profile ball handle, 5 deg head. I really want the 5 deg head.

    My question is for those who may have used a 5 deg head...how often do you find these sidelined by interference...mostly on grands. I really don't think uprights present much of a challenge clearance wise.

    With a short tip , and one of his tip mounting extensions, the longest of which extends the tip 7/8" from the lever tube, I really don't see the majority of struts getting in the way...occasional interference , but not often.

    Any thoughts regarding 5 deg clearances?  I always carry several levers anyway for clearance issues.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: 5 deg head lever clearance

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-04-2016 17:58
    Jim,
    I've used a 5 degree head with a 1" long tip for 30 years or more. It is a rare piano where I've had clearance problems. Or course with grands, your tuning hammer handle will be almost parallel to the strings in the extreme treble. I simply carry a long tip for those rare occasions.
    Roger Gable



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  • 3.  RE: 5 deg head lever clearance

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-05-2016 15:19
    Jim,
    I have a Faulk lever with a 10 degree head, it occasionally runs into the top on Yamaha U1s in the bass. The tip is 1.25 in. long. Maybe you'd need a longer tip for those pianos.

    Joe




  • 4.  RE: 5 deg head lever clearance

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-05-2016 01:53
    Keep in mind that 2 degrees, 5 degrees, 45 degrees is irrelevant by itself. The critical issue is distance of application of tuners hand above plane perpendicular to the contact point of the tip with the tuning pin. How you get there really doesn't matter. See Dan Levitan's hammer or the Nov. 15 Journal article featuring the Appleton Chapter's experiment. 


    Keith Akins, RPT
    Piano Technologist
    715/775-0022 Mon-Sat 9a-9p





  • 5.  RE: 5 deg head lever clearance

    Posted 05-05-2016 03:55
    Interesting question, Jim, yet not one I can answer for I only use a 'T' hammer on a grand. I have developed some equally interesting muscles in my wrist because of this! Clenching the fist hard this muscle is like a mini biceps - this ain't no banana! Yet for many grands it is necessary for the head to be quite long in order to clear the the plate struts. Is this 5 deg. really necessary? My lever is the extending type with a tightening 'ferrule'(?) and standard thread to take my collection of heads of which, I suppose, the most used one is a 'thin wall' type for use of those pianos (uprights, in my case) where the wrest pins are annoyingly clumped together. Yet in later years I seem to have not used this extending handle so much but have gone back to my original (must be over 100 years old) R.REYNOLDS (stamped on the shank) the Head/Shank angle is 100 deg. - or 10deg off horizontal - whichever way you want to look at it, and the Head length to the underside of the handle shank is 2.5".      Michael   UK





  • 6.  RE: 5 deg head lever clearance

    Posted 05-05-2016 06:37

    I have been experimenting with a variation on my Faulk hammer extensions. They are hex stock and I applied a box-end wrench to drive. What got me thinking about it was the need to select the best tip for the pin. Changing heads and tips is time consuming and usually detrimental to the threads. A time saving approach would be to have tips mounted onto the heads but that is not too cost effective. Having the tips mounted on relatively less costly hex shafts is a quick way to select the tip fit, then slip onto the lever. Another benefit would be to be able to slide the lever out along the length of the hex shaft to clear the struts or have it close at the tip for spinets and such. Dedicated tips/extensions.

    I tried various wrenches with some chewing up the shaft. I don't know if it is a mlid steel or not. Right now, I'm using a six-sided box end. It is 1/2" and there is a little too much chatter and binding, I'm thinking of switching to 12 mm box end.

    The rotational force needed to turn the pins seems to be less, with less flag poling and torsion since the tip-fit is optimal (being close to the coil). I'm also thinking the a larger hex shaft diameter might add some mechanical advantage, say, 13 or 15 mm or SAE. It would depend on the availability of the hex stock.

    Securing the lever along the length is another consideration, presently I use a rubber band wrapped around them at the vertical position I need.

    A longer hex shaft would be better and made of harder tool steel. I haven't used it recently as the fit is sloppy from shaft wear. If I had more time and resources, I would pursue the aforementioned applications.

    In the photos, I carry an old Hale shaft and tip in Tom Driscoll's handle. The Faulk.  The box-end wrench had the shaft ground to fit into an old handle. In the photos, the wrench is at either end of the hex shaft. I prefer 5 degree heads as well but the box-end offers a universality and the angle is not so much an issue.

    Perhaps someone else has the ambition to further this idea along...

    Other ideas have been to use a long socket with the lever shaft welded on and the hex shaft to slide inside. For stringing, a ratchet wrench and socket would allow for a faster pin turning.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page



  • 7.  RE: 5 deg head lever clearance

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-05-2016 08:25

    Jon, have you tried Dan Levitan's C-Lever? It's "a whole different world", ergonomically speaking. I generally have several levers in my backpack: the Levitan C-Lever, a first generation Faulk lever with a BKD "2" tip (which fits rather high for most #2 pins, perfect for #1 pins), a Fujan lever with a #2 Watanabe tip or Jahn #3 head, and a Reyburn CyberHammer for vertical pitch raises. The Levitan C-Lever is fantastic for grand pitch raises, and for verticals too.

    My apologies for veering off the "degree head" topic; the Levitan angle is very very low (where's my protractor??).

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Draine
    Billerica MA
    978-663-9690



  • 8.  RE: 5 deg head lever clearance

    Posted 05-05-2016 12:28

    My goal is not to have a collection of hammers. One handle with a collection of extensions w/ tips mounted.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page



  • 9.  RE: 5 deg head lever clearance

    Posted 05-05-2016 14:13
    My primary and only field lever is 2-1/2" center to tip, 10 degree head,
    #2 Watanabe tip, and about 9" from the center of the head to the center
    of a 2" ball grip on a 9/16" shank. I use this on everything with no
    problem. My tunings are well above average in stability, and are usually
    done in under an hour. My "technique" is the same on every piano,
    consisting of adapting as I go to what I feel and hear in response. I've
    always heard that we were presumed to be adaptable as a species, so I've
    tried to hold up my end. I'd rather work with a familiar tool under
    varying conditions than to be continually changing tools and
    re-familiarizing myself with a different tool each time. I'll take the
    responsibility for the tuning instead of relying on the tool to do it.
    Since I'd probably choose the wrong tool and muck it up, this works best
    for me.

    Besides, my tool case is heavy enough.
    Ron N




  • 10.  RE: 5 deg head lever clearance

    Posted 05-05-2016 14:45

    I share a similar view about not wanting to change tips continually. I have a Fujan 15º with a Jahn #3 tip. It works for about anything, except there are times it doesn't fit on A0 without removing the music desk support. I also have a homemade lever with a billiard-ball end (thanks to Ron N for the idea) and a Jahn 10º head and #3 tip. It fits anywhere. The Fujan is my weapon of choice because it's lighter than anything else out there.

    I can't figure out why anyone would need the tip to fit differently from piano to piano. As long as the tip engages the pin, we can feel the movement of the pin just as well as with any other tip. I've used Jahn #2, Watanabe #2, as well as Hale tips early on. Like Ron says, it's just learning what to feel. I don't think the lever or tip is all that special, although i do have preferences.

    Also own a Levitan C lever. Although it's fine as far as feeling pin movement, I find it excessively cumbersome with regard to moving the lever from pin to pin. It's so much slower than a traditional lever that I often put it back down and pick up the Fujan. My stability isn't any different with either lever. But then again, stability comes from knowing what you're doing. Once a person learns what to feel, it's easy from there with any tool (the cheap ones excepted, of course).

    ------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    New Albany MS



  • 11.  RE: 5 deg head lever clearance

    Posted 05-05-2016 15:19
    > I also have a homemade lever with a billiard-ball
    > end (thanks to Ron N for the idea) and a Jahn 10?? head and #3 tip.

    Kent Swafford showed us a ball end lever at a chapter meeting many years
    ago. Never let it be said that I would hesitate to steal a good idea.



    > But then again, stability
    > comes from knowing what you're doing. Once a person learns what to
    > feel, it's easy from there with any tool (the cheap ones excepted, of
    > course).

    What do you have invested in your homemade hammer? Other than the cost
    of the head and tip, the ball on mine came from a $0.50 track ball at a
    garage sale, and a piece of 7/16" stainless from my scrap drawer. Even
    if one were to splurge on a new cue ball for $5 and a hardware store
    shaft, it's still a cheap lever. It's just a good one.....

    Oh, and I lied. It's a 2-1/4" ball, which is standard pool ball size.
    Ron N




  • 12.  RE: 5 deg head lever clearance

    Posted 05-06-2016 16:55

    It wasn't much. Maybe $50-60? I didn't have much of lever building stuff in the scrap drawer. And, yes, it's very good. I used it today on a Young Chang grand. It's a bit heavy for verticals, but it feels great for grands.

    What do you have invested in your homemade hammer? Other than the cost
    of the head and tip, the ball on mine came from a $0.50 track ball at a
    garage sale, and a piece of 7/16" stainless from my scrap drawer. Even
    if one were to splurge on a new cue ball for $5 and a hardware store
    shaft, it's still a cheap lever. It's just a good one.....

    Ronald Nossaman,  yesterday
    ------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    New Albany MS



  • 13.  RE: 5 deg head lever clearance

    Posted 05-06-2016 19:13
    I never paid attention to what it weighed, but you got me curious. My
    original lever, a Schaff nylon handled non-adjustable is 415g, with a
    long tip. It's my shop/stringing hammer now. An old maple handled Hale
    extension lever weighs 390g. The laminated handle Hale extension I used
    prior to my ball end is 491g, so it's a virtual brick, but I never
    considered it's weight when I used it. Just didn't occur to me that it
    would matter since I didn't find it objectionable at the time. My
    homemade ball-end is 351g, or 140g lighter than my previous lever. I
    looked up the weight of the basic Fujan at 289g, or about 60g less than
    mine. Faulk's levers are similar in weight. Given my numb headed
    awareness of lever weights in use, I doubt it would make a lot of
    difference to me, but I can see where it could for someone else.

    Ron N




  • 14.  RE: 5 deg head lever clearance

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-06-2016 01:49

    In reply to Ron N.

    As you say, we're adaptable...

    And, the dirty little secret is that although the Levitan concept does what it does, all tuning levers exactly and perfectly cancel out whatever tip vector they create by simply applying pressure in the opposite direction. So, having a lever that introduces minimal tip vector may be interesting and perhaps preferred by some, in the end, it isn't really that big of a deal. 

    (I sold a few levers about 40 years ago that applied the same principle that Levitan does, although not engineered to the same extent as Dan's fine lever.)

    ------------------------------
    Keith Akins
    Akins Pianocraft
    Menominee MI
    906-863-7387



  • 15.  RE: 5 deg head lever clearance

    Posted 05-06-2016 09:55

    <in the end, it isn't really that big of a deal. 

    Referring to the OP...yes, the mechanics of any lever can be understood, and compensated for. This is not a big deal, as you say.  However, what is a big deal, is, this compensation and basic rotational control can only happen if the body and musculature of the operator is capable of managing and withstanding the repetitive and strenuous requirements. Learning to use a lever is different than being physically able to  use it...very different.

    Some of us are blessed with substantial and relatively bullet-proof musculatures. Many others of us are not so blessed in this regard. Therefore, having the ability to examine, experiment with, and generally flail about with the parameters as needed, one can find a leverage advantage to help the body accommodate what the musculature itself cannot. Increasing leverage creates other vector issues which need to be minimized and/or compensated for. This can only be done with understanding of how many variable parts of the system can be adjusted in order to allow the use of a high leverage, read, long shaft.

    The number of fine techs who live silently in mild to serious discomfort is a dirty secret piece of what we do and who we are. Even knowing this, I am still quite surprised at the high number of relatively young techs I talk to, who are experiencing serious physical repercussions from the strenuous and repetitive nature of the tuning task.

    So, I submit that the quest to understand all the parameters that one may tweak, to suit the limitations of their own physical circumstance, defines this ability to analyze and customize a tool as simple as a tuning lever, as quite big a deal.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026



  • 16.  RE: 5 deg head lever clearance

    Posted 05-06-2016 14:39
    I originally made the ball end hammer because the selections of grips I
    used was still hard on my hand. The ball end spreads the abuse out, and
    provides more options for finding comfortable positions during tuning.
    Three days after rolling my truck, smashing my right index knuckle, and
    badly spraining the rest, I tuned two pianos with no problem and little
    discomfort. Without the ball end, I couldn't have gone back to work for
    weeks.

    During tuning, I constantly change position. If it's not comfortable,
    adjust until it is. I typically see people doing exactly the same thing
    every time, whether it works or not, because that's how they do it. I
    see awkward positioning and poor leverage, and I wonder how it is that
    they aren't crippled quite yet. For years, I listened to complaints of
    pain and discomfort at chapter meetings, when I didn't have any chronic
    joint or muscle problem until many years later, which the ball end
    relieved. By the constant repositioning, I spread the abuse out, so my
    biggest problem was a sore butt at the end of a long day.

    By all means, explore the hardware. I doubt that any of us use the same
    lever we learned, or at least started out on. I'm wondering what
    physical comfort has to do with head angles and tip lengths and carrying
    multiple tips or levers. You have the equipment to make a half dozen
    prospective levers of different lengths to try out whatever you can
    imagine. I don't see how the question you asked will produce the answer
    you want.
    Ron N




  • 17.  RE: 5 deg head lever clearance

    Posted 05-06-2016 16:34

    <I don't see how the question you asked will produce the answer
    you want

    This is interesting, as  in many instances in this work, I find the experience does not jive completely with the theoretical explanations.

    For instance, in this case:

    This 5 deg, relatively high vertical offset, very long lever combination I'm playing with(not convinced yet, but carefully observing)...I built this lever using a golf club handle for stringing new blocks...quick and dirty.  It performed beautifully in this specific stringing/new pin excising task. My low tone torso did not experience the trips to the chiropractor it normally required...I mean the work was actually quite easy for me to do.

    Ok...my intention was to leave the project there, just for stringing/pin exercising. But as usual understanding the limits of things is fun for me, so, I started messing about just for the willies of it, trying to tune with this very flexible set up. With its supposedly very high bending forces, in various orientations to the string plane, ie 3 and 9 as well as 6 over the stretcher (never 12 o'clock...too hard on my bod') I find what appears to be less  bending force than anticipated, and a control at the pin which though requiring attention, do-able unto, for me, physically easier and intuitive. I think the intuitive may have more to do with my musculature working at its physical comfort level rather beyond my physical abilities more than anything else, due to the leverage...but not sure, still observing.

    Then I take out my trad lever which measures about 17.5 deg. It was sold as a 20 deg head. I absolutely hate this particular lever...the brand of which I will not  publish. Though the vertical offset of my golf club ( i refer to this fine tool as my 4 Iron), is greater than the above mentioned trad lever, 6" vs 4-3/8", and the 4 Iron's lever length is 1.5 times the length of the trad lever, in looking at the flex angles a twist imposes on the system, visually, the trad lever is forcing a level of bending on the pin that the 4 Iron is not. As well, I had another tech play with this high angle trad lever, and he couldn't tune with it either. The two of us have very different musculatures, by the way. I mention this, because I attentive to the possibility that the 4 iron has the potential of working nicely, because, and soley because it suits the physical limitation my musculature can support...but not totally sure this it the complete reason why it works.

    So, not that a trad lever has to be this ridiculously high an angle, but, looking at the problem from accentuated and therefore easier to observe  extremes,  the simple explanation that "vertical offset is what matters, and how the force gets to the pin does not matter" is not a compete description of the forces at play. It is therefore, not  completely correct in its incompleteness...forces are missing, which mess with the results.

    One possibility is that how the force gets to the pin does present at least a second set of torques, to be accounted for. This is perhaps ignored in the usual description of simple lever forces. It is complex and I don't understand it, but the forces acting on the pin in the above accentuated example do not fit the accepted physical description. Applying turning torque with the high angle trad lever,  even without applying all the torque needed to turn the pin, to reduce the effect of my personal low tone musculature, creates a clear visual, and proprioceptive tendency to  towards greater pin flex than the low angle, higher vertical offset 4 Iron.

    Why, I ask myself? One reason i can see regards different vector angles the two levers require the human applying the force, to use in applying force to the lever. The high angle trad lever forces the operator to divide his/her available turning force between a vertical and horizontal vector as they pull into the turning motion. The low angle 4 Iron only requires a simpler, more-singular, horizontal vector applied  to the lever handle.

    Still observing...

       

      

       

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026



  • 18.  RE: 5 deg head lever clearance

    Posted 05-06-2016 21:08

    The impetus for my universal head idea started with wanting the best fit tip for any given pin. I have a pretty good assortment of tips but find changing them out to be time consuming and detrimental to the threading. I like the tip to grip the pin close to the coils and not at the tip of the pin (induces more torsion). I also like the handle positioned as close to the top of the pin as possible.

    Early on, as  in years and years ago, instead of swapping tips, I had them mounted on the heads and selected the appropriate combo for fit and elevation, even as limited as it was with 3 or 4 combos.

    Last year, I came up with the idea of more cost effective universal heads mounted to a variety of tips. The Faulk hex extension gave me a resource. Select the best fit tip and insert the combo into the fitting on the handle. There would be no need to adjust your technique other than to compensate for the elevation.

    Initially I found the effort needed to turn the pin was reduced from a single point system because of the six-sided bearing force (I assume). Maybe it was because of the over-size of the hex shaft giving a mechanical advantage. Which is why i'm now thinking of pursuing a larger diameter hex shaft.

    A benefit of the vertical hex shaft is that the handle could move as close to the tip of the pin as the piano structure allowed. Close, at the tip of the pin for spinets and consoles and further out for handle clearance of a grand strut or vertical lid overhang.

    Rather than allowing the lever to freely flop up and down the hex shaft, I'm pondering various means of inducing a fixed, although still easily moveable, vertical position.

    Today, I tuned a M&H CC and S&S C. I used the old Hale one-piece head but the fit was at the tip on the pin of 2/0 pins. Fortunately, the pins were not overly tight and there was not a torsion issue with turning the pins. After those, I tuned a M&H console with the Faulk and a BKB #3 tip. I have no problem switching levers, even halfway thru a tuning. Sometimes, because I have options, I'll switch back and forth to decide which lever gives the quicker response.

    Now, if I had a pre-setup series of tips mounted on universal heads, I could select the tip that best fit the pin and easily insert that into the handle and secure for structural clearances, rather than having to deal with whatever I have at hand and making do. I can and have done that for 40 years but would like a choice for options.  Choice is always better.

    So, it's still in the woiks...

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page



  • 19.  RE: 5 deg head lever clearance

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-05-2016 11:16
      |   view attached

    Fairly unsophisticated, but attached is a photo of my current hammer - a non-C Levitan with custom wound handle, which was originally intended as a temporary means of determining the dimension of the handle I would eventually make, or have made.  Time flies and I find the color cheerful.  It does run into problems with some areas of Mason Hamlin, etc. so it's not a universal solution, but for general, I like it a lot.

    Hand also works for most general applications

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565



  • 20.  RE: 5 deg head lever clearance

    Posted 05-05-2016 12:20

    David,

    wound with what?

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026



  • 21.  RE: 5 deg head lever clearance

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-05-2016 13:46

    Under layer of rubber drawer liner, followed, initially, by pretty wool yarn. Ran out of that yarn for the requisite re-wrapping, then found some made from bamboo. Not quite as cuddly but feels like it should last longer. Planning to get tip from Jurgen sometime soon.

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565



  • 22.  RE: 5 deg head lever clearance

    Posted 05-05-2016 13:59

    interesting...doesn't the yarn move around and come undone?

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026



  • 23.  RE: 5 deg head lever clearance

    Posted 05-06-2016 01:40

    I tune using only a Fujan with a 5 degree head. I have a 1" tip and a 1 3/4" tip. I also have two spacer washers that get me another ~3/8". Most grands require the longer tip, and sometimes both spacers as well. I have yet to meet a piano it didn't fit (aside from ones requiring a narrow tip) I ise the short tip for uprights and the bass/tenor on grands, then switch to the long tip for the treble. The 1" tip gives me noticeably more control. 

    ------------------------------
    Philip Stewart, CPT, RPT
    NJ Piano Service
    Dorothy NJ
    609-774-7571