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Looks like I've been anonymously censored

  • 1.  Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Posted 03-25-2022 22:27
    Here we go again, our faceless anonymous censor is at it again. Erased from the A432 thread.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-25-2022 22:36
    Jim, did it have anything to do with certain Teutonic aspects of the 432 fairy tale?

    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-25-2022 23:09
    Anyways, some researched history here:
    https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-musical-pitches/fact-check-debunking-social-media-claims-about-a432hz-and-a440hz-musical-pitches-idUSL1N2P915O

    Also, not mentioned in the article above is that A=440 was mandated for Germany and Europe in general in the Treaty of Versailles section II article 282, note 22.
         Following World War I, a little known provision of the Treaty of Versailles (June 28, 1919) adopted A=440 as the standard pitch for all signatory nations. Following these        events, the production of horns with accessory slides for high pitch declined, and finally stopped.

    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-25-2022 23:09
    It's happened to me, too. If only the anonomous entity would let us know what we said that was wrong we might be able to find alternative wording so as not to make the exact same mistake again. But, no. We are all subject to will of the thin skinned and free speech, even just plain questionably respectful free speech is not condoned here. Get used to it.

    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-26-2022 01:15
    Yea, I was just censored on Quora for referencing a Wikipedia medical article.

    Micro-dictators rule.

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Posted 03-26-2022 09:23
    You could start you own private forum. I'd join.
    Censorship on a forum is a contradiction by the way. The accepted origin of a forum is when Romulus (founder of Rome) wanted to have open discussions with his rival Titus on neutral territory. Think about that , two enemies  having a discussion is a forum. Now could you imagine what would happen if someone told them to shut up!
     -chris

    ------------------------------
    Chernobieff Piano Restorations
    "Where Tone is Key"
    chernobieffpiano.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqIJud92EW7YI8La8OyY1nA
    Lenoir City, TN
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-26-2022 10:03
    If we can't avoid an anonymous censor from exercising THEIR judgement, at least they should be accountable. Yes, PTG's standard pitch is A440. However if there is anything so dangerous about client requests for lower pitch that it has to be tossed in George Orwell's "memory hole", it sure isn't obvious to the rest of us. And if the censor doesn't need to explain themselves, then we have to deem their judgement as arbitrary and capricious. They should be accountable for a GOOD explanation for why something had to be yanked, when it contained nothing we would consider dangerous/inappropriate, like ad hominem attacks, and strays into religion and politics. How else are we going to learn to behave ourselves.

    I really did want to thank Karl Roeder for his courage in admitting his sloth and under-powered imagination in the "DC installation without fasteners" discussion. A grateful Forum salutes you , Karl, for standing tall in your shortcomings where the rest of us, equally afflicted, cowered in silence. That too ended up in the memory hole.

    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-26-2022 10:19
    Who is paying this "person" to sit and read all this stuff?

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-26-2022 10:41
    Hi All,

    Please allow me to explain the process...

    No one is being paid to read all this stuff. 

    If a member finds a problem with a post, that member can "flag" the post as inappropriate. It then disappears until the volunteers in the Communications Task Group have a chance to look at it to determine if a rule was broken, hopefully in as short a time as possible. If a rule was not broken, the post returns to its original location. If a rule was broken, the post stays down. So, if you want to know which rule was broken, you must figure it out on your own with the rules (linked below) or email the Comminucations Task Group. If you are still unsure, you can write Maggie because she is obsessive about answering emailsand providing clarity.  ;-) 

    As several have pointed out before, there is more freedom here than on other platforms such as the Facebook Groups, but that freedom is still limited to the rules. These rules have evolved to accommodate the various personalities in our Guild as best one can. They are not perfect, and they may continue to evolve, but they serve us well. I've seen what can happen without them, so please forgive the occasional annoyance as we walk the tight-rope of middle-ground with our members. You are all valuable and we would like to keep information about pianos flowing. It helps us all. 

    Thank You!!!
    Maggie

    https://my.ptg.org/help/ocrules

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel, RPT
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-26-2022 10:50
    Maggie,

    Is it also conceivable that someone accidentally hit the flag button when they were instead attempting to edit their post?

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-26-2022 13:47
    No. I did that once while trying to edit my post. It popped up with a box asking for the reason I thought the post was inappropriate. One would have to fill in a reason before the post would go into moderation.

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (256) 947-9999
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-26-2022 16:06
    Mr. Ballard,
    If my commitment to sloth and indolence has helped even one person it's all been worthwhile.

    ------------------------------
    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-26-2022 19:35

    What's more, any reply to some inflammatory post, seeking peace and understanding and offering explanations, is also removed along with it. So, any chance of a self-regulating list is destroyed.






  • 14.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-26-2022 21:28
    2 hours after uploading pictures of a square grand hammer installation done 45 years ago, I discovered far better pictures. This Forum h​ad no way to swap out the photos, and I was left with deleting that post so as to repeat the text with the better pictures. THAT took with it a very nice complement, threaded from it.

    I enjoy phpBB far more, as forum software.

    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-26-2022 21:43

    Bill, that kind of thing plus disagreeing with a number of censorship decisions, is why I always read the lists (all glommed together into one folder instead of imprisoned in their tiny rooms) by email. Email once sent can't be snatched away again.






  • 16.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-27-2022 09:56
    Susan - 2 things...

    1) Members, not the ETG, are the ones who flag posts. That is why we call it "self moderating". 

    2) Have you seen what happens when no moderation happens? It not only can get bad, the ETG is told to "do something", the exact opposite of what this thread is complaining about. Right now, we have a pretty good middle ground. Unless both extremes agree on something. We'd better stay where we get equal complaints from opppsing points of view. ;-) 

    PS: Nothing wrong with reading email, but it might be good to check the forum now & then to catch edits like the one I made in a previous post. ;-)

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel, RPT
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-27-2022 13:37
    I think that most of us would agree that some level of censorship/control over the group is necessary. I also think that most of us would agree that it's not the fact that we have been censored so much as it is the fact that we never really know why. Without knowing why, we don't learn from our perceived mistake, nor do we get the opportunity to apologize or correct ourselves if so desired. In other words, we're found guilty and punished without trial by default, and that's not fair. Go ahead and block the offending post if necessary. Just provide us some explanation of what's going on. Please.

    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Posted 03-27-2022 14:21
    Also, giving the complainer the right to be anonymous gives them an outsized power, which absolves them of having the gumption to state their complaint publicly. No one on this list is allowed to be anonymous. So, why is the faceless complainer allowed anonymity.  Those of us who post put ourselves on the line every time we open our mouths, to the whole community, and we say who we are. If you want to complain, fine, but let us see your face, and stand up for the rights you are supposedly claiming, Claiming the right to complain, while hiding behind an invisible curtain is rather cowardly behavior in my opinion, especially since the complaint kills the post, even before anything resembling due process occurs. Then, given the timing, the shear lag time between consensus and the weekend , when the home office is not even available to reinstate the post, it means, without due process, by the shear amount of time elapsed, the post is killed. Said faceless complainer, has, in effect, exercised complete control over what they think the list should or shouldn't see.

    One of the worst parts about social media, is that before this, you had to have the gumption to confront people face to face. This meant you had to accept the consequences of your actions. For this component of the censor process, the complainer has complete impunity, and faces no consequence over their actions. 

    Also, I applaud Maggie. As far as I can see, the only one on the censor committee who has the guts to say what she did, who she is, and why she did it. Maggie...I had great respect for you previously. Now, my respect for you has increased even more.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-27-2022 18:21
    Jim - Although the HO is out for the weekend, the rest of us are on the job so to speak. The only time there is a lag is when we are without signal or otherwise indisposed. 

    Thank you for the kind sentiments. I'm afraid I can't respond to several things in your last 2 posts because it might cross a confidentiality line, but I can write you privately.

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel, RPT
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-27-2022 18:12
    Geoff - I empathize with you a great deal on this. I would prefer people know for sure why a post was deleted. Just keep in mind that the CTG are all volunteers so I'm afraid to ask them to do more than they already do. Let me find out if it can be done "automatically" by just filling in a box along with the couple clicks that keep a post from returning to the forum. I'll let you know.

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel, RPT
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-26-2022 19:32

    <<Get used to it.>>

    Never.






  • 22.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Posted 03-27-2022 14:50
    This is an excellent thread. Thanks to Maggie for the explanation of the process. She says the "flag-er" remains hidden to us, but not to the volunteer group that judges the flagged post. If the post wasn't that bad, it is re-posted. If we have villainized the volunteers' actions enough that there are no more volunteers, shame on us. That single "flag-er" will then certainly gain power.
    I would like to say a word for sensitive people. It is tempting to just wish they would grow up or get stronger. But we would appreciate that a loud group, either a loud party or a war zone, would drive away all those of us who make our living from our hearing. It is nice to have a process in here that allows sensitive people to linger with us, and not be driven away. I find them charming.

    ------------------------------
    Jack Bresette-Mills
    Driftwood TX
    512-773-2072
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Posted 03-27-2022 15:52

    The 6th amendment  provides that the accused, has the right to confront a witness against him or her,  As well it provides for a public trial...there are no secret trials, or secret witnesses provided.

    As well, I submit that I can show, that though the committee seems to think I violated the guidelines on political discussion, if I were actually consulted, and asked to explain myself, and if the committee were actually able to listen past their own inevitable biases,  that I could show that the committee itself, in the way they dispatched with the post, not only completely misunderstood the content of the supposed political speech, but was itself, in the way they chose to misunderstand the points I made, taking a political position. This itself, would be a violation of their own guidelines. 

    Its all quite abstract here, because the post is gone and its not even clear they can find it.  Maybe Susan's got it.


    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-27-2022 16:20
    While I hesitate to join in the fray, especially since I think this discussion might be better carried out on PTG-L, rather than here (a public forum), I'll dive in with a bit of information.
    A concise summary of the Communications Task Group's charge, and membership, is available on the PTG site. I have copied it below. Maggie gave the link to the details of the my.PTG "rules" in an earlier post.
    Communications Task Group

    2.2  Member Communications: Continue to advance helpful communications to and from membership through PTG. 

    2.2.1  E-news: continue to improve the use/benefit of E-news.
    2.2.5  Online Chat/Support: Investigate the feasibility of offering some kind of online help/chat support for members.

    • Evaluate all complaints regarding posts in PTG online communities and process accordingly.
    • The chair shall submit a written report to the Home Office 45 days prior to any regular Board meeting or as requested.

    Members

    Brandon Robertson, RPT, Chair

    Maggie Jusiel, RPT

    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT

    Kathy Maxwell, Home Office, Liaison

    Torger Baland, RPT, Board Liaison





  • 25.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-27-2022 16:27
    Unfortunately my "cut & paste" and attempts at editing my post wasn't very effective (i.e. it's a real mess).
    Sorry, please ignore it.

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Draine
    Billerica MA
    978-663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-27-2022 17:20

    If you can give me the date, I can go check for it.






  • 27.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-27-2022 18:17
    Jim - The 6th amendment comes into play in the US legal system, not the PTG forum.

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel, RPT
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Posted 03-27-2022 18:43
    Maggie...I'm aware of that...I am signing off on this topic, as its a complete waste energy...mine as well as yours. I will leave it as the anonymous complainant makes no sense, as its simply too easy to click a button and absolve one's self completely of any responsibility or consequences. Perhaps PTG should institute some "safe" rooms so we don't fuffle anyone's hyper sensitive feathers.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-28-2022 09:20
    In the past, we've had to deal with people abusing the mark-as-inappropriate button. It is an issue, but thankfully less now than it was in years prior. (Though we just had someone go bonkers with it a few months ago.)

    No one in the task force claims to be perfect or make perfect decisions every time. We've had some lively debates before regarding flagged posts, and the default is, if the post is borderline, it stays. And, we try not to remove posts if it's something that can be avoided by asking the author to edit it. But if it's a clear violation of the rules, it goes. No one person makes that call. There is a process that's followed, and we're working on ways to make the process clearer, faster, and as fair as it can be.


    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (256) 947-9999
    www.professional-piano-services.com





  • 30.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Posted 03-28-2022 09:37
    The committee needs to know, that if you are depending on the HL software to communicate with posters, either to clarify or edit, the website notifications, as everything else on this website, is minimally functional, to non-functional. The software itself is a large part of your communication problem...and you have a problem on the website.

    No notifications were ever received, no requests to edit were received, and there is nothing in my spam.  The communication templates don't work, and the only reliable communications came from personal, non HL emails. As well, the only template that actually came through, was way after the fact, and allowed no way to respond to the sender. I had to type out the reply address, as reply was "do not reply to sender, which in an email client, does not go anywhere. I still don't know if the reply I sent to Brandon went to him or to HL's garbage dump.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-28-2022 10:39
    Jim - Good to know. Thanks.

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel, RPT
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-29-2022 11:07
    Perhaps the complainant will have the courage to reveal their identity. I am fully aware that this may not easy, but is an indication of both self-respect and respect for others. In the end it makes it easier for others to respect us.
    If I had been the one to do it I might say something like: "Hey Jim...yes, it was me who did the dirty work and this is why I did it...sorry if you were offended..." 
    Or perhaps: "Jim, we may not see eye to eye on this now or ever, but it was me that flagged your post. I apologize if my reaction seemed over the top. Maybe it was..." 
    It's really just a matter of acting with the respect with which we would like to be treated. (I didn't make that up 😉).  Any meaningful discussion really requires mutual respect. Taking responsibility for our actions is a big part of that.
    Remaining anonymous unfortunately actually does the opposite. 
    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 


    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 33.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-29-2022 11:35
    Peter - Remember that if a post was not returned it was because a rule was broken.

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel, RPT
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 34.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-29-2022 14:14
    "Jim Ialeggio: You broke rule #2014

    Jim looks up rule #2273 and says: "OH, now I see why I was deleted. I won't do that kind of thing anymore..."

    Or some such thing as that.

    May sound simplistic...maybe I'm in lala land. Could be. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 
    ​​

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 35.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-29-2022 14:33

    Peter,

    I understand what you're saying. However, know that the majority of posts that are removed are by people who would likely (and sometimes have in the past) harass those who flag their posts. I'm NOT saying that's the case with Jim. I've had several pleasant conversations with Jim in the past and wouldn't expect him to misbehave like that. Even still, there's a reason why the flagger is known only to the moderation committee and the home office. 

    Also, know that those of us in the CTG do not go around looking for rule violations. We'll deal with something if someone flags it, but we don't flag posts ourselves - unless it's something obviously wrong, like spam, porn, or excessive profanity, etc. That way we try to be as objective as possible. 

    Like I said before, nothing's perfect, but we're trying our best given the tools, procedures, and experiences we have. And - if anyone thinks something could be done better, please feel free to volunteer for the Communications task group next year. There's a reason why things are done the way they are and a lot of behind the scenes stuff goes on. 



    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (256) 947-9999
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    ------------------------------



  • 36.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-29-2022 16:05
    Peter makes a good point. If one was at least informed of the rule that was broken, they could figure out what the infraction was. 
    As it is nothing is learned.
    I think that would be an improvement.

    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
    ------------------------------



  • 37.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-29-2022 16:43
    Hopefully some of us have checked to see what The Rules are!
    I have copied them below, with boldface emphasis of the first two sentences.

    The Rules

    •   Discuss Pianos

    The PTG communities are for discussing pianos, piano service, and the PTG. Discussions of societal, religious, political, medical, or other potentially divisive or alienating topics and the airing of beliefs about such topics have no place on the PTG communities. While discussions may occasionally stray from the original topic of a post, community members should not hijack threads through multiple off-topic responses. Reserve discussions and shared files, content, and links to that which is suitable for a piano technology forum.

    •   Be Professional and Respectful

    It is okay to disagree or share different opinions, but it is not okay to use rudeness when responding to others. Disrespectful behavior, insults, threats, and other abusive forms of communication, whether clearly stated or implied, are not allowed. All defamatory, abusive, profane, obscene, threatening, offensive or illegal materials are strictly prohibited. Remember that other participants have the right to reproduce anything you post to this site unless you specify otherwise.

    •   No Commercial Messages

    Don't post commercial messages on any discussion list, resource library entry, or other areas where others might see it. Use caution when discussing products. Information posted on the lists and in the libraries is available for all to see, and comments are subject to libel, slander, and antitrust laws.

    PTG communities are for discussing pianos, piano service, and the PTG. Discussions of societal, religious, political, medical, or other potentially divisive or alienating topics and the airing of beliefs about such topics have no place on the PTG communities. While discussions may occasionally stray from the original topic of a post, community members should not hijack threads through multiple off-topic responses. Reserve discussions and shared files, content, and links to that which is suitable for a piano technology forum.



    ------------------------------
    Patrick Draine
    Billerica MA
    978-663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 38.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-29-2022 16:51
    Peter & Steven - That can, and has, happened. 

    Pat - Thank you.

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel, RPT
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 39.  RE: Looks like I've been anonymously censored

    Posted 03-29-2022 18:21