Pianotech

I've been having problems with the midsection tuning pins on my home Kawai KG-6C.  Several pins move in "klinks" making fine tuning difficult, and it has been a barrier in trying to improve my temperament tuning for the exam.

I finally noticed that a number of the wires on the middle and front pins are in contact with the back pin (coil), and that seems to be the cause of the jumpy moves.  It looks like some of the pins are driven in more than others--not all the say down to the plate, but the coils are lower than others.  Also in appears some of the bushings are not centered in the plate holes.  Anyway, this is a 45 year old piano.

So, first solution: I loosened the offending wire and insert plastic post-it tabs to try to ease the friction.  That seems to help.

Today's solution:  apply beeswax as a lubricant to the rubbing spots.  I'm thinking about using a soldering iron to melt the was onto the wires in the specific locations.  My thinking is that, compared to other lubricants, the was will remain solid and not migrate into the pinblock.

So, my question is: is this reasonable?  Does anyone want to say "don't do that!" ?  Or other suggestions for a better solution?

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236
------------------------------

Mr.Schell,

before you try melting something right over the tuning pin bushing I'd suggest you try using Jon Page's CBL at the agraffe and the counterbearing.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 11:48
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

I've been having problems with the midsection tuning pins on my home Kawai KG-6C.  Several pins move in "klinks" making fine tuning difficult, and it has been a barrier in trying to improve my temperament tuning for the exam.

I finally noticed that a number of the wires on the middle and front pins are in contact with the back pin (coil), and that seems to be the cause of the jumpy moves.  It looks like some of the pins are driven in more than others--not all the say down to the plate, but the coils are lower than others.  Also in appears some of the bushings are not centered in the plate holes.  Anyway, this is a 45 year old piano.

So, first solution: I loosened the offending wire and insert plastic post-it tabs to try to ease the friction.  That seems to help.

Today's solution:  apply beeswax as a lubricant to the rubbing spots.  I'm thinking about using a soldering iron to melt the was onto the wires in the specific locations.  My thinking is that, compared to other lubricants, the was will remain solid and not migrate into the pinblock.

So, my question is: is this reasonable?  Does anyone want to say "don't do that!" ?  Or other suggestions for a better solution?

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236
------------------------------

One can get some clearance (you only need several thousandths for clearance), by driving select pins further into the block. This sets coils at different heights relative to each other, and can give clearance even on way too dense portions of the pin field.  I normally do this on purpose in a really tight low tenor pin field, as ease of tuning, and thus clearance, wins. Pianos are full of compromises, and this is a necessary compromise one should not feel shy about making...tuning ease reflects how good that piano will sound throughout its life, so its more important, in my book, to facilitate ease of tuning, rather that satisfying a the gods of OCD.

Some techs recommend tuning the problematic pins in a certain order, to minimize the effects of the rubbing. Maybe they can chime in. 

As far as easing the tension to insert low friction paper, its hard to know whether the paper is helping or the fact that you eased the tension is helping. Many techs report, that on poorly rendering notes, dropping the pitch and then re-tuning, all by itself, helps a string to render better, even if there was no interference.

In any case, especially on a 45 year old piano, whose strings will be corroded enough to make stability a problem, especially 45 year old Kawai's, don't be hesitant...jump right in there. The worst that can happen, is that you have to fix it...and that's actually a positive, because you learn a lot about the system, by experimenting and occasionally mucking it up. Try your experiments up at the hight treble, where pin torque failure is less of a problem than lower in the scale.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 14:44
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: beeswax

Mr.Schell,

before you try melting something right over the tuning pin bushing I'd suggest you try using Jon Page's CBL at the agraffe and the counterbearing.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 11:48
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

I've been having problems with the midsection tuning pins on my home Kawai KG-6C.  Several pins move in "klinks" making fine tuning difficult, and it has been a barrier in trying to improve my temperament tuning for the exam.

I finally noticed that a number of the wires on the middle and front pins are in contact with the back pin (coil), and that seems to be the cause of the jumpy moves.  It looks like some of the pins are driven in more than others--not all the say down to the plate, but the coils are lower than others.  Also in appears some of the bushings are not centered in the plate holes.  Anyway, this is a 45 year old piano.

So, first solution: I loosened the offending wire and insert plastic post-it tabs to try to ease the friction.  That seems to help.

Today's solution:  apply beeswax as a lubricant to the rubbing spots.  I'm thinking about using a soldering iron to melt the was onto the wires in the specific locations.  My thinking is that, compared to other lubricants, the was will remain solid and not migrate into the pinblock.

So, my question is: is this reasonable?  Does anyone want to say "don't do that!" ?  Or other suggestions for a better solution?

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236
------------------------------

JIm,
Thank you.  Yes there is some corrosion on the wires.  I've considered restringing the midsection. And it's my piano, and in our interlude of covid I've been doing a lot of work on it and learning a lot.  If I started pulling out pins, I would want to figure out why the pins and bushings are off center.  A couple are leaning noticeably.

A fun adventure in any case.  Thanks again.

Eric

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 15:10
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: beeswax

One can get some clearance (you only need several thousandths for clearance), by driving select pins further into the block. This sets coils at different heights relative to each other, and can give clearance even on way too dense portions of the pin field.  I normally do this on purpose in a really tight low tenor pin field, as ease of tuning, and thus clearance, wins. Pianos are full of compromises, and this is a necessary compromise one should not feel shy about making...tuning ease reflects how good that piano will sound throughout its life, so its more important, in my book, to facilitate ease of tuning, rather that satisfying a the gods of OCD.

Some techs recommend tuning the problematic pins in a certain order, to minimize the effects of the rubbing. Maybe they can chime in.

As far as easing the tension to insert low friction paper, its hard to know whether the paper is helping or the fact that you eased the tension is helping. Many techs report, that on poorly rendering notes, dropping the pitch and then re-tuning, all by itself, helps a string to render better, even if there was no interference.

In any case, especially on a 45 year old piano, whose strings will be corroded enough to make stability a problem, especially 45 year old Kawai's, don't be hesitant...jump right in there. The worst that can happen, is that you have to fix it...and that's actually a positive, because you learn a lot about the system, by experimenting and occasionally mucking it up. Try your experiments up at the hight treble, where pin torque failure is less of a problem than lower in the scale.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 14:44
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: beeswax

Mr.Schell,

before you try melting something right over the tuning pin bushing I'd suggest you try using Jon Page's CBL at the agraffe and the counterbearing.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 11:48
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

I've been having problems with the midsection tuning pins on my home Kawai KG-6C.  Several pins move in "klinks" making fine tuning difficult, and it has been a barrier in trying to improve my temperament tuning for the exam.

I finally noticed that a number of the wires on the middle and front pins are in contact with the back pin (coil), and that seems to be the cause of the jumpy moves.  It looks like some of the pins are driven in more than others--not all the say down to the plate, but the coils are lower than others.  Also in appears some of the bushings are not centered in the plate holes.  Anyway, this is a 45 year old piano.

So, first solution: I loosened the offending wire and insert plastic post-it tabs to try to ease the friction.  That seems to help.

Today's solution:  apply beeswax as a lubricant to the rubbing spots.  I'm thinking about using a soldering iron to melt the was onto the wires in the specific locations.  My thinking is that, compared to other lubricants, the was will remain solid and not migrate into the pinblock.

So, my question is: is this reasonable?  Does anyone want to say "don't do that!" ?  Or other suggestions for a better solution?

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236
------------------------------

Please expand on "Jon Page's CBL".

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 14:44
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: beeswax

Mr.Schell,

before you try melting something right over the tuning pin bushing I'd suggest you try using Jon Page's CBL at the agraffe and the counterbearing.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 11:48
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

I've been having problems with the midsection tuning pins on my home Kawai KG-6C.  Several pins move in "klinks" making fine tuning difficult, and it has been a barrier in trying to improve my temperament tuning for the exam.

I finally noticed that a number of the wires on the middle and front pins are in contact with the back pin (coil), and that seems to be the cause of the jumpy moves.  It looks like some of the pins are driven in more than others--not all the say down to the plate, but the coils are lower than others.  Also in appears some of the bushings are not centered in the plate holes.  Anyway, this is a 45 year old piano.

So, first solution: I loosened the offending wire and insert plastic post-it tabs to try to ease the friction.  That seems to help.

Today's solution:  apply beeswax as a lubricant to the rubbing spots.  I'm thinking about using a soldering iron to melt the was onto the wires in the specific locations.  My thinking is that, compared to other lubricants, the was will remain solid and not migrate into the pinblock.

So, my question is: is this reasonable?  Does anyone want to say "don't do that!" ?  Or other suggestions for a better solution?

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236
------------------------------

CBL = Counter Bearing Lube, a concoction devised by Jon Page (and available from him...my second pint arrived just today). 

Do not let its name have you inferring limitations for its use. Seems to work wherever other liquid lubricants used on pianos work.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 17:21
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

Please expand on "Jon Page's CBL".

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 14:44
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: beeswax

Mr.Schell,

before you try melting something right over the tuning pin bushing I'd suggest you try using Jon Page's CBL at the agraffe and the counterbearing.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 11:48
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

I've been having problems with the midsection tuning pins on my home Kawai KG-6C.  Several pins move in "klinks" making fine tuning difficult, and it has been a barrier in trying to improve my temperament tuning for the exam.

I finally noticed that a number of the wires on the middle and front pins are in contact with the back pin (coil), and that seems to be the cause of the jumpy moves.  It looks like some of the pins are driven in more than others--not all the say down to the plate, but the coils are lower than others.  Also in appears some of the bushings are not centered in the plate holes.  Anyway, this is a 45 year old piano.

So, first solution: I loosened the offending wire and insert plastic post-it tabs to try to ease the friction.  That seems to help.

Today's solution:  apply beeswax as a lubricant to the rubbing spots.  I'm thinking about using a soldering iron to melt the was onto the wires in the specific locations.  My thinking is that, compared to other lubricants, the was will remain solid and not migrate into the pinblock.

So, my question is: is this reasonable?  Does anyone want to say "don't do that!" ?  Or other suggestions for a better solution?

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236
------------------------------

I made CBL with help from Joe Goss. He told me the appropriate vehicle to use with a lubricant component.

It reduces friction at the bearing points. As with anything, not all users like the product.  I do !

It is also a great center pin lubricant, key pin cleaner, etc.

However, your ticking problem is not caused by wires touching coils or other wires. Wires encroaching on others causes tuning instability in the wire that touches the string you are tuning. As the tension is changed on your wire, the rubbing against an adjacent wire will affect that wire's Non Speaking Length (NSL) tension. So the string you previously tuned, has drifted. It's impossible to 'keep all the balls in the air'.

The ticking more than likely it coming from the dissimilar metals at the bearing points which has corroded/pitted the wire. The same goes for tenor c/b felt.
The bearing points on your Kawai lift the wire off the felt (which is there to mute) so no downwards pressure appears to be an issue.

I have eliminated the ratcheting on c/b felt with the installation of Counter Bearing Aliquots.

Another issue is work-hardening of the wire in the top two treble sections. The wire has permanently been forced into the curve and does not render well.
I tuned a C7 in a venue and the treble is stubborn, even with CBL. But the few instances where strings have broken, the replacements tune fine. I suggested restringing the top two sections.

I tuned a 45+ y/o S&S B last week and had the same issue in the treble. Lowering or raising the pitch, the wire did not want to move. Restringing was recommended but is not in the cards.

As for the pins being off-center, don't worry about it. The bushing is keeping it away from the webbing. You could even repin with the next size up and not have a problem.  If the pins are tight, restring using the original pins and make the coils on a dummy pin.

Jim's advise is good if you want to eliminate the wires touching other wires or coils. You don't need much clearance to be effective.


------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 18:00
From: Alan Eder
Subject: beeswax

CBL = Counter Bearing Lube, a concoction devised by Jon Page (and available from him...my second pint arrived just today).

Do not let its name have you inferring limitations for its use. Seems to work wherever other liquid lubricants used on pianos work.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 17:21
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

Please expand on "Jon Page's CBL".

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 14:44
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: beeswax

Mr.Schell,

before you try melting something right over the tuning pin bushing I'd suggest you try using Jon Page's CBL at the agraffe and the counterbearing.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 11:48
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

I've been having problems with the midsection tuning pins on my home Kawai KG-6C.  Several pins move in "klinks" making fine tuning difficult, and it has been a barrier in trying to improve my temperament tuning for the exam.

I finally noticed that a number of the wires on the middle and front pins are in contact with the back pin (coil), and that seems to be the cause of the jumpy moves.  It looks like some of the pins are driven in more than others--not all the say down to the plate, but the coils are lower than others.  Also in appears some of the bushings are not centered in the plate holes.  Anyway, this is a 45 year old piano.

So, first solution: I loosened the offending wire and insert plastic post-it tabs to try to ease the friction.  That seems to help.

Today's solution:  apply beeswax as a lubricant to the rubbing spots.  I'm thinking about using a soldering iron to melt the was onto the wires in the specific locations.  My thinking is that, compared to other lubricants, the was will remain solid and not migrate into the pinblock.

So, my question is: is this reasonable?  Does anyone want to say "don't do that!" ?  Or other suggestions for a better solution?

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236
------------------------------

I took another, closer look at the photo. The tenor mute felt appears to be exerting upwards pressure on the wire. In this case, the wire is pitted and locked to the felt. Changing tension releases the keyed-in grip with the resulting tick and tension jump. The wire does not draw smoothly and the NSL has to be significantly altered for the wire to skip across the pitted interface.  And when it does, the pitch is not on target.

CBL may help but not as much as new wire.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 07:27
From: Jon Page
Subject: beeswax

I made CBL with help from Joe Goss. He told me the appropriate vehicle to use with a lubricant component.

It reduces friction at the bearing points. As with anything, not all users like the product.  I do !

It is also a great center pin lubricant, key pin cleaner, etc.

However, your ticking problem is not caused by wires touching coils or other wires. Wires encroaching on others causes tuning instability in the wire that touches the string you are tuning. As the tension is changed on your wire, the rubbing against an adjacent wire will affect that wire's Non Speaking Length (NSL) tension. So the string you previously tuned, has drifted. It's impossible to 'keep all the balls in the air'.

The ticking more than likely it coming from the dissimilar metals at the bearing points which has corroded/pitted the wire. The same goes for tenor c/b felt.
The bearing points on your Kawai lift the wire off the felt (which is there to mute) so no downwards pressure appears to be an issue.

I have eliminated the ratcheting on c/b felt with the installation of Counter Bearing Aliquots.

Another issue is work-hardening of the wire in the top two treble sections. The wire has permanently been forced into the curve and does not render well.
I tuned a C7 in a venue and the treble is stubborn, even with CBL. But the few instances where strings have broken, the replacements tune fine. I suggested restringing the top two sections.

I tuned a 45+ y/o S&S B last week and had the same issue in the treble. Lowering or raising the pitch, the wire did not want to move. Restringing was recommended but is not in the cards.

As for the pins being off-center, don't worry about it. The bushing is keeping it away from the webbing. You could even repin with the next size up and not have a problem.  If the pins are tight, restring using the original pins and make the coils on a dummy pin.

Jim's advise is good if you want to eliminate the wires touching other wires or coils. You don't need much clearance to be effective.


------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 18:00
From: Alan Eder
Subject: beeswax

CBL = Counter Bearing Lube, a concoction devised by Jon Page (and available from him...my second pint arrived just today).

Do not let its name have you inferring limitations for its use. Seems to work wherever other liquid lubricants used on pianos work.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 17:21
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

Please expand on "Jon Page's CBL".

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 14:44
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: beeswax

Mr.Schell,

before you try melting something right over the tuning pin bushing I'd suggest you try using Jon Page's CBL at the agraffe and the counterbearing.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 11:48
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

I've been having problems with the midsection tuning pins on my home Kawai KG-6C.  Several pins move in "klinks" making fine tuning difficult, and it has been a barrier in trying to improve my temperament tuning for the exam.

I finally noticed that a number of the wires on the middle and front pins are in contact with the back pin (coil), and that seems to be the cause of the jumpy moves.  It looks like some of the pins are driven in more than others--not all the say down to the plate, but the coils are lower than others.  Also in appears some of the bushings are not centered in the plate holes.  Anyway, this is a 45 year old piano.

So, first solution: I loosened the offending wire and insert plastic post-it tabs to try to ease the friction.  That seems to help.

Today's solution:  apply beeswax as a lubricant to the rubbing spots.  I'm thinking about using a soldering iron to melt the was onto the wires in the specific locations.  My thinking is that, compared to other lubricants, the was will remain solid and not migrate into the pinblock.

So, my question is: is this reasonable?  Does anyone want to say "don't do that!" ?  Or other suggestions for a better solution?

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236
------------------------------

Thanks, Jon.  I have been thinking about restringing the problem section.  It's actually the low to mid tenor section, and there is a modest amount of corrosion on the wires.

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 07:35
From: Jon Page
Subject: beeswax

I took another, closer look at the photo. The tenor mute felt appears to be exerting upwards pressure on the wire. In this case, the wire is pitted and locked to the felt. Changing tension releases the keyed-in grip with the resulting tick and tension jump. The wire does not draw smoothly and the NSL has to be significantly altered for the wire to skip across the pitted interface.  And when it does, the pitch is not on target.

CBL may help but not as much as new wire.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 07:27
From: Jon Page
Subject: beeswax

I made CBL with help from Joe Goss. He told me the appropriate vehicle to use with a lubricant component.

It reduces friction at the bearing points. As with anything, not all users like the product.  I do !

It is also a great center pin lubricant, key pin cleaner, etc.

However, your ticking problem is not caused by wires touching coils or other wires. Wires encroaching on others causes tuning instability in the wire that touches the string you are tuning. As the tension is changed on your wire, the rubbing against an adjacent wire will affect that wire's Non Speaking Length (NSL) tension. So the string you previously tuned, has drifted. It's impossible to 'keep all the balls in the air'.

The ticking more than likely it coming from the dissimilar metals at the bearing points which has corroded/pitted the wire. The same goes for tenor c/b felt.
The bearing points on your Kawai lift the wire off the felt (which is there to mute) so no downwards pressure appears to be an issue.

I have eliminated the ratcheting on c/b felt with the installation of Counter Bearing Aliquots.

Another issue is work-hardening of the wire in the top two treble sections. The wire has permanently been forced into the curve and does not render well.
I tuned a C7 in a venue and the treble is stubborn, even with CBL. But the few instances where strings have broken, the replacements tune fine. I suggested restringing the top two sections.

I tuned a 45+ y/o S&S B last week and had the same issue in the treble. Lowering or raising the pitch, the wire did not want to move. Restringing was recommended but is not in the cards.

As for the pins being off-center, don't worry about it. The bushing is keeping it away from the webbing. You could even repin with the next size up and not have a problem.  If the pins are tight, restring using the original pins and make the coils on a dummy pin.

Jim's advise is good if you want to eliminate the wires touching other wires or coils. You don't need much clearance to be effective.


------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 18:00
From: Alan Eder
Subject: beeswax

CBL = Counter Bearing Lube, a concoction devised by Jon Page (and available from him...my second pint arrived just today).

Do not let its name have you inferring limitations for its use. Seems to work wherever other liquid lubricants used on pianos work.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 17:21
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

Please expand on "Jon Page's CBL".

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 14:44
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: beeswax

Mr.Schell,

before you try melting something right over the tuning pin bushing I'd suggest you try using Jon Page's CBL at the agraffe and the counterbearing.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 11:48
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

I've been having problems with the midsection tuning pins on my home Kawai KG-6C.  Several pins move in "klinks" making fine tuning difficult, and it has been a barrier in trying to improve my temperament tuning for the exam.

I finally noticed that a number of the wires on the middle and front pins are in contact with the back pin (coil), and that seems to be the cause of the jumpy moves.  It looks like some of the pins are driven in more than others--not all the say down to the plate, but the coils are lower than others.  Also in appears some of the bushings are not centered in the plate holes.  Anyway, this is a 45 year old piano.

So, first solution: I loosened the offending wire and insert plastic post-it tabs to try to ease the friction.  That seems to help.

Today's solution:  apply beeswax as a lubricant to the rubbing spots.  I'm thinking about using a soldering iron to melt the was onto the wires in the specific locations.  My thinking is that, compared to other lubricants, the was will remain solid and not migrate into the pinblock.

So, my question is: is this reasonable?  Does anyone want to say "don't do that!" ?  Or other suggestions for a better solution?

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236
------------------------------

I'd like to throw in the mix the rare occasion it is actually the pin jumping & making the clicking sound. If you have the string off the pin and the pin moves smoothly by itself, you'll know this is not the problem. Although, even more rare, pins can get "sticky" only when string pressure is on them; a little sideways pressure on the tuning lever can duplicate this effect. ...just so Eric knows this can also happen. ;-)

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 08:15
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

Thanks, Jon.  I have been thinking about restringing the problem section.  It's actually the low to mid tenor section, and there is a modest amount of corrosion on the wires.

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 07:35
From: Jon Page
Subject: beeswax

I took another, closer look at the photo. The tenor mute felt appears to be exerting upwards pressure on the wire. In this case, the wire is pitted and locked to the felt. Changing tension releases the keyed-in grip with the resulting tick and tension jump. The wire does not draw smoothly and the NSL has to be significantly altered for the wire to skip across the pitted interface.  And when it does, the pitch is not on target.

CBL may help but not as much as new wire.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 07:27
From: Jon Page
Subject: beeswax

I made CBL with help from Joe Goss. He told me the appropriate vehicle to use with a lubricant component.

It reduces friction at the bearing points. As with anything, not all users like the product.  I do !

It is also a great center pin lubricant, key pin cleaner, etc.

However, your ticking problem is not caused by wires touching coils or other wires. Wires encroaching on others causes tuning instability in the wire that touches the string you are tuning. As the tension is changed on your wire, the rubbing against an adjacent wire will affect that wire's Non Speaking Length (NSL) tension. So the string you previously tuned, has drifted. It's impossible to 'keep all the balls in the air'.

The ticking more than likely it coming from the dissimilar metals at the bearing points which has corroded/pitted the wire. The same goes for tenor c/b felt.
The bearing points on your Kawai lift the wire off the felt (which is there to mute) so no downwards pressure appears to be an issue.

I have eliminated the ratcheting on c/b felt with the installation of Counter Bearing Aliquots.

Another issue is work-hardening of the wire in the top two treble sections. The wire has permanently been forced into the curve and does not render well.
I tuned a C7 in a venue and the treble is stubborn, even with CBL. But the few instances where strings have broken, the replacements tune fine. I suggested restringing the top two sections.

I tuned a 45+ y/o S&S B last week and had the same issue in the treble. Lowering or raising the pitch, the wire did not want to move. Restringing was recommended but is not in the cards.

As for the pins being off-center, don't worry about it. The bushing is keeping it away from the webbing. You could even repin with the next size up and not have a problem.  If the pins are tight, restring using the original pins and make the coils on a dummy pin.

Jim's advise is good if you want to eliminate the wires touching other wires or coils. You don't need much clearance to be effective.


------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 18:00
From: Alan Eder
Subject: beeswax

CBL = Counter Bearing Lube, a concoction devised by Jon Page (and available from him...my second pint arrived just today).

Do not let its name have you inferring limitations for its use. Seems to work wherever other liquid lubricants used on pianos work.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 17:21
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

Please expand on "Jon Page's CBL".

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 14:44
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: beeswax

Mr.Schell,

before you try melting something right over the tuning pin bushing I'd suggest you try using Jon Page's CBL at the agraffe and the counterbearing.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 11:48
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

I've been having problems with the midsection tuning pins on my home Kawai KG-6C.  Several pins move in "klinks" making fine tuning difficult, and it has been a barrier in trying to improve my temperament tuning for the exam.

I finally noticed that a number of the wires on the middle and front pins are in contact with the back pin (coil), and that seems to be the cause of the jumpy moves.  It looks like some of the pins are driven in more than others--not all the say down to the plate, but the coils are lower than others.  Also in appears some of the bushings are not centered in the plate holes.  Anyway, this is a 45 year old piano.

So, first solution: I loosened the offending wire and insert plastic post-it tabs to try to ease the friction.  That seems to help.

Today's solution:  apply beeswax as a lubricant to the rubbing spots.  I'm thinking about using a soldering iron to melt the was onto the wires in the specific locations.  My thinking is that, compared to other lubricants, the was will remain solid and not migrate into the pinblock.

So, my question is: is this reasonable?  Does anyone want to say "don't do that!" ?  Or other suggestions for a better solution?

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236
------------------------------

Once again, I answered something from my phone & had to go back & fix all my typos. 🙄🤦‍♀️🥴🤪

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 08:46
From: Margaret Jusiel
Subject: beeswax

I'd like to throw in the mix the rare occasion it is actually the pin jumping & making the clicking sound. If you have the string off the pin and the pin moves smoothly by itself, you'll know this is not the problem. Although, even more rare, pins can get "sticky" only when string pressure is on them; a little sideways pressure on the tuning lever can duplicate this effect. ...just so Eric knows this can also happen. ;-)

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 08:15
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

Thanks, Jon.  I have been thinking about restringing the problem section.  It's actually the low to mid tenor section, and there is a modest amount of corrosion on the wires.

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 07:35
From: Jon Page
Subject: beeswax

I took another, closer look at the photo. The tenor mute felt appears to be exerting upwards pressure on the wire. In this case, the wire is pitted and locked to the felt. Changing tension releases the keyed-in grip with the resulting tick and tension jump. The wire does not draw smoothly and the NSL has to be significantly altered for the wire to skip across the pitted interface.  And when it does, the pitch is not on target.

CBL may help but not as much as new wire.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 07:27
From: Jon Page
Subject: beeswax

I made CBL with help from Joe Goss. He told me the appropriate vehicle to use with a lubricant component.

It reduces friction at the bearing points. As with anything, not all users like the product.  I do !

It is also a great center pin lubricant, key pin cleaner, etc.

However, your ticking problem is not caused by wires touching coils or other wires. Wires encroaching on others causes tuning instability in the wire that touches the string you are tuning. As the tension is changed on your wire, the rubbing against an adjacent wire will affect that wire's Non Speaking Length (NSL) tension. So the string you previously tuned, has drifted. It's impossible to 'keep all the balls in the air'.

The ticking more than likely it coming from the dissimilar metals at the bearing points which has corroded/pitted the wire. The same goes for tenor c/b felt.
The bearing points on your Kawai lift the wire off the felt (which is there to mute) so no downwards pressure appears to be an issue.

I have eliminated the ratcheting on c/b felt with the installation of Counter Bearing Aliquots.

Another issue is work-hardening of the wire in the top two treble sections. The wire has permanently been forced into the curve and does not render well.
I tuned a C7 in a venue and the treble is stubborn, even with CBL. But the few instances where strings have broken, the replacements tune fine. I suggested restringing the top two sections.

I tuned a 45+ y/o S&S B last week and had the same issue in the treble. Lowering or raising the pitch, the wire did not want to move. Restringing was recommended but is not in the cards.

As for the pins being off-center, don't worry about it. The bushing is keeping it away from the webbing. You could even repin with the next size up and not have a problem.  If the pins are tight, restring using the original pins and make the coils on a dummy pin.

Jim's advise is good if you want to eliminate the wires touching other wires or coils. You don't need much clearance to be effective.


------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 18:00
From: Alan Eder
Subject: beeswax

CBL = Counter Bearing Lube, a concoction devised by Jon Page (and available from him...my second pint arrived just today).

Do not let its name have you inferring limitations for its use. Seems to work wherever other liquid lubricants used on pianos work.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 17:21
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

Please expand on "Jon Page's CBL".

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 14:44
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: beeswax

Mr.Schell,

before you try melting something right over the tuning pin bushing I'd suggest you try using Jon Page's CBL at the agraffe and the counterbearing.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 11:48
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

I've been having problems with the midsection tuning pins on my home Kawai KG-6C.  Several pins move in "klinks" making fine tuning difficult, and it has been a barrier in trying to improve my temperament tuning for the exam.

I finally noticed that a number of the wires on the middle and front pins are in contact with the back pin (coil), and that seems to be the cause of the jumpy moves.  It looks like some of the pins are driven in more than others--not all the say down to the plate, but the coils are lower than others.  Also in appears some of the bushings are not centered in the plate holes.  Anyway, this is a 45 year old piano.

So, first solution: I loosened the offending wire and insert plastic post-it tabs to try to ease the friction.  That seems to help.

Today's solution:  apply beeswax as a lubricant to the rubbing spots.  I'm thinking about using a soldering iron to melt the was onto the wires in the specific locations.  My thinking is that, compared to other lubricants, the was will remain solid and not migrate into the pinblock.

So, my question is: is this reasonable?  Does anyone want to say "don't do that!" ?  Or other suggestions for a better solution?

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236
------------------------------

And where do I order CBL?

Thanks!

Eric

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 07:35
From: Jon Page
Subject: beeswax

I took another, closer look at the photo. The tenor mute felt appears to be exerting upwards pressure on the wire. In this case, the wire is pitted and locked to the felt. Changing tension releases the keyed-in grip with the resulting tick and tension jump. The wire does not draw smoothly and the NSL has to be significantly altered for the wire to skip across the pitted interface.  And when it does, the pitch is not on target.

CBL may help but not as much as new wire.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 07:27
From: Jon Page
Subject: beeswax

I made CBL with help from Joe Goss. He told me the appropriate vehicle to use with a lubricant component.

It reduces friction at the bearing points. As with anything, not all users like the product.  I do !

It is also a great center pin lubricant, key pin cleaner, etc.

However, your ticking problem is not caused by wires touching coils or other wires. Wires encroaching on others causes tuning instability in the wire that touches the string you are tuning. As the tension is changed on your wire, the rubbing against an adjacent wire will affect that wire's Non Speaking Length (NSL) tension. So the string you previously tuned, has drifted. It's impossible to 'keep all the balls in the air'.

The ticking more than likely it coming from the dissimilar metals at the bearing points which has corroded/pitted the wire. The same goes for tenor c/b felt.
The bearing points on your Kawai lift the wire off the felt (which is there to mute) so no downwards pressure appears to be an issue.

I have eliminated the ratcheting on c/b felt with the installation of Counter Bearing Aliquots.

Another issue is work-hardening of the wire in the top two treble sections. The wire has permanently been forced into the curve and does not render well.
I tuned a C7 in a venue and the treble is stubborn, even with CBL. But the few instances where strings have broken, the replacements tune fine. I suggested restringing the top two sections.

I tuned a 45+ y/o S&S B last week and had the same issue in the treble. Lowering or raising the pitch, the wire did not want to move. Restringing was recommended but is not in the cards.

As for the pins being off-center, don't worry about it. The bushing is keeping it away from the webbing. You could even repin with the next size up and not have a problem.  If the pins are tight, restring using the original pins and make the coils on a dummy pin.

Jim's advise is good if you want to eliminate the wires touching other wires or coils. You don't need much clearance to be effective.


------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 18:00
From: Alan Eder
Subject: beeswax

CBL = Counter Bearing Lube, a concoction devised by Jon Page (and available from him...my second pint arrived just today).

Do not let its name have you inferring limitations for its use. Seems to work wherever other liquid lubricants used on pianos work.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 17:21
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

Please expand on "Jon Page's CBL".

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 14:44
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: beeswax

Mr.Schell,

before you try melting something right over the tuning pin bushing I'd suggest you try using Jon Page's CBL at the agraffe and the counterbearing.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 11:48
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

I've been having problems with the midsection tuning pins on my home Kawai KG-6C.  Several pins move in "klinks" making fine tuning difficult, and it has been a barrier in trying to improve my temperament tuning for the exam.

I finally noticed that a number of the wires on the middle and front pins are in contact with the back pin (coil), and that seems to be the cause of the jumpy moves.  It looks like some of the pins are driven in more than others--not all the say down to the plate, but the coils are lower than others.  Also in appears some of the bushings are not centered in the plate holes.  Anyway, this is a 45 year old piano.

So, first solution: I loosened the offending wire and insert plastic post-it tabs to try to ease the friction.  That seems to help.

Today's solution:  apply beeswax as a lubricant to the rubbing spots.  I'm thinking about using a soldering iron to melt the was onto the wires in the specific locations.  My thinking is that, compared to other lubricants, the was will remain solid and not migrate into the pinblock.

So, my question is: is this reasonable?  Does anyone want to say "don't do that!" ?  Or other suggestions for a better solution?

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236
------------------------------

Eric,   

I'm not sure where you are on the learning curve of tuning, as you mention you are working on improving your temperament. 45 year old Kawai's often are impossible to tune. The corrosion and rendering, combined with the design of the wire's front segment, which I call the "stabilizing length", (ie the length of wire between agraffe and the tuning pin), Jon calls it the NSL (non-speaking length), is a really challenging design and condition to get past in trying to really nail your targets. That segment of wire, determines how stable your tuning will be, which is why I call it the stabilizing length. If it is in the condition yours is in, you simply will not be able to "read", or make and educated guess as to how much tension is in that segment of wire. If you can't "read" the tension in that segment, you have no idea whether the tension is acceptably close to the speaking length's tension or not. If it is not close to the speaking lengths(SL) tension, the pitch will drift almost immediately, no matter what you do.

Said another way, you don't have a prayer, and its not about you...its about the physical structure you are facing, is just not tune-able.  In order to practice it would be really helpful to restring, and reconfigure the counterbearing configuration in that front segment. Restringing really needs to include bridge work as well, but in this case, just to practice tuning, I would recommend restringing, and re-profiling the agraffes at the least, or getting a different piano to practice on.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 08:19
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

And where do I order CBL?

Thanks!

Eric

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 07:35
From: Jon Page
Subject: beeswax

I took another, closer look at the photo. The tenor mute felt appears to be exerting upwards pressure on the wire. In this case, the wire is pitted and locked to the felt. Changing tension releases the keyed-in grip with the resulting tick and tension jump. The wire does not draw smoothly and the NSL has to be significantly altered for the wire to skip across the pitted interface.  And when it does, the pitch is not on target.

CBL may help but not as much as new wire.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 07:27
From: Jon Page
Subject: beeswax

I made CBL with help from Joe Goss. He told me the appropriate vehicle to use with a lubricant component.

It reduces friction at the bearing points. As with anything, not all users like the product.  I do !

It is also a great center pin lubricant, key pin cleaner, etc.

However, your ticking problem is not caused by wires touching coils or other wires. Wires encroaching on others causes tuning instability in the wire that touches the string you are tuning. As the tension is changed on your wire, the rubbing against an adjacent wire will affect that wire's Non Speaking Length (NSL) tension. So the string you previously tuned, has drifted. It's impossible to 'keep all the balls in the air'.

The ticking more than likely it coming from the dissimilar metals at the bearing points which has corroded/pitted the wire. The same goes for tenor c/b felt.
The bearing points on your Kawai lift the wire off the felt (which is there to mute) so no downwards pressure appears to be an issue.

I have eliminated the ratcheting on c/b felt with the installation of Counter Bearing Aliquots.

Another issue is work-hardening of the wire in the top two treble sections. The wire has permanently been forced into the curve and does not render well.
I tuned a C7 in a venue and the treble is stubborn, even with CBL. But the few instances where strings have broken, the replacements tune fine. I suggested restringing the top two sections.

I tuned a 45+ y/o S&S B last week and had the same issue in the treble. Lowering or raising the pitch, the wire did not want to move. Restringing was recommended but is not in the cards.

As for the pins being off-center, don't worry about it. The bushing is keeping it away from the webbing. You could even repin with the next size up and not have a problem.  If the pins are tight, restring using the original pins and make the coils on a dummy pin.

Jim's advise is good if you want to eliminate the wires touching other wires or coils. You don't need much clearance to be effective.


------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 18:00
From: Alan Eder
Subject: beeswax

CBL = Counter Bearing Lube, a concoction devised by Jon Page (and available from him...my second pint arrived just today).

Do not let its name have you inferring limitations for its use. Seems to work wherever other liquid lubricants used on pianos work.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 17:21
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

Please expand on "Jon Page's CBL".

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 14:44
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: beeswax

Mr.Schell,

before you try melting something right over the tuning pin bushing I'd suggest you try using Jon Page's CBL at the agraffe and the counterbearing.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 11:48
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

I've been having problems with the midsection tuning pins on my home Kawai KG-6C.  Several pins move in "klinks" making fine tuning difficult, and it has been a barrier in trying to improve my temperament tuning for the exam.

I finally noticed that a number of the wires on the middle and front pins are in contact with the back pin (coil), and that seems to be the cause of the jumpy moves.  It looks like some of the pins are driven in more than others--not all the say down to the plate, but the coils are lower than others.  Also in appears some of the bushings are not centered in the plate holes.  Anyway, this is a 45 year old piano.

So, first solution: I loosened the offending wire and insert plastic post-it tabs to try to ease the friction.  That seems to help.

Today's solution:  apply beeswax as a lubricant to the rubbing spots.  I'm thinking about using a soldering iron to melt the was onto the wires in the specific locations.  My thinking is that, compared to other lubricants, the was will remain solid and not migrate into the pinblock.

So, my question is: is this reasonable?  Does anyone want to say "don't do that!" ?  Or other suggestions for a better solution?

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236
------------------------------

Jim, Discouraging, but helpful.  Thanks!

Eric

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 08:54
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: beeswax

Eric,

I'm not sure where you are on the learning curve of tuning, as you mention you are working on improving your temperament. 45 year old Kawai's often are impossible to tune. The corrosion and rendering, combined with the design of the wire's front segment, which I call the "stabilizing length", (ie the length of wire between agraffe and the tuning pin), Jon calls it the NSL (non-speaking length), is a really challenging design and condition to get past in trying to really nail your targets. That segment of wire, determines how stable your tuning will be, which is why I call it the stabilizing length. If it is in the condition yours is in, you simply will not be able to "read", or make and educated guess as to how much tension is in that segment of wire. If you can't "read" the tension in that segment, you have no idea whether the tension is acceptably close to the speaking length's tension or not. If it is not close to the speaking lengths(SL) tension, the pitch will drift almost immediately, no matter what you do.

Said another way, you don't have a prayer, and its not about you...its about the physical structure you are facing, is just not tune-able.  In order to practice it would be really helpful to restring, and reconfigure the counterbearing configuration in that front segment. Restringing really needs to include bridge work as well, but in this case, just to practice tuning, I would recommend restringing, and re-profiling the agraffes at the least, or getting a different piano to practice on.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 08:19
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

And where do I order CBL?

Thanks!

Eric

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 07:35
From: Jon Page
Subject: beeswax

I took another, closer look at the photo. The tenor mute felt appears to be exerting upwards pressure on the wire. In this case, the wire is pitted and locked to the felt. Changing tension releases the keyed-in grip with the resulting tick and tension jump. The wire does not draw smoothly and the NSL has to be significantly altered for the wire to skip across the pitted interface.  And when it does, the pitch is not on target.

CBL may help but not as much as new wire.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 07:27
From: Jon Page
Subject: beeswax

I made CBL with help from Joe Goss. He told me the appropriate vehicle to use with a lubricant component.

It reduces friction at the bearing points. As with anything, not all users like the product.  I do !

It is also a great center pin lubricant, key pin cleaner, etc.

However, your ticking problem is not caused by wires touching coils or other wires. Wires encroaching on others causes tuning instability in the wire that touches the string you are tuning. As the tension is changed on your wire, the rubbing against an adjacent wire will affect that wire's Non Speaking Length (NSL) tension. So the string you previously tuned, has drifted. It's impossible to 'keep all the balls in the air'.

The ticking more than likely it coming from the dissimilar metals at the bearing points which has corroded/pitted the wire. The same goes for tenor c/b felt.
The bearing points on your Kawai lift the wire off the felt (which is there to mute) so no downwards pressure appears to be an issue.

I have eliminated the ratcheting on c/b felt with the installation of Counter Bearing Aliquots.

Another issue is work-hardening of the wire in the top two treble sections. The wire has permanently been forced into the curve and does not render well.
I tuned a C7 in a venue and the treble is stubborn, even with CBL. But the few instances where strings have broken, the replacements tune fine. I suggested restringing the top two sections.

I tuned a 45+ y/o S&S B last week and had the same issue in the treble. Lowering or raising the pitch, the wire did not want to move. Restringing was recommended but is not in the cards.

As for the pins being off-center, don't worry about it. The bushing is keeping it away from the webbing. You could even repin with the next size up and not have a problem.  If the pins are tight, restring using the original pins and make the coils on a dummy pin.

Jim's advise is good if you want to eliminate the wires touching other wires or coils. You don't need much clearance to be effective.


------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 18:00
From: Alan Eder
Subject: beeswax

CBL = Counter Bearing Lube, a concoction devised by Jon Page (and available from him...my second pint arrived just today).

Do not let its name have you inferring limitations for its use. Seems to work wherever other liquid lubricants used on pianos work.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 17:21
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

Please expand on "Jon Page's CBL".

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 14:44
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: beeswax

Mr.Schell,

before you try melting something right over the tuning pin bushing I'd suggest you try using Jon Page's CBL at the agraffe and the counterbearing.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 11:48
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

I've been having problems with the midsection tuning pins on my home Kawai KG-6C.  Several pins move in "klinks" making fine tuning difficult, and it has been a barrier in trying to improve my temperament tuning for the exam.

I finally noticed that a number of the wires on the middle and front pins are in contact with the back pin (coil), and that seems to be the cause of the jumpy moves.  It looks like some of the pins are driven in more than others--not all the say down to the plate, but the coils are lower than others.  Also in appears some of the bushings are not centered in the plate holes.  Anyway, this is a 45 year old piano.

So, first solution: I loosened the offending wire and insert plastic post-it tabs to try to ease the friction.  That seems to help.

Today's solution:  apply beeswax as a lubricant to the rubbing spots.  I'm thinking about using a soldering iron to melt the was onto the wires in the specific locations.  My thinking is that, compared to other lubricants, the was will remain solid and not migrate into the pinblock.

So, my question is: is this reasonable?  Does anyone want to say "don't do that!" ?  Or other suggestions for a better solution?

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236
------------------------------

Something to consider, as I don't know how far along you are in tuning skills...

but in learning this skill, the skill of achieving stability is much harder to acquire than setting temperament, or even tuning unisons for many or most folks. Many of us learned on horrible instruments, no doubt. But the thing is, stability, which is among the first and hardest things to slowly master, can not be efficiently learned on an instrument that will not render, like this. It will not give you the propioceptive feedback your hand and mind requires to learn what equalized fronts segment and speaking length tensions feel like. So, the choice of learning instrument can either slow you down and frustrate, or assist you by providing reasonable front segment feedback.  This instrument will slow you down, big time.

If its just to learn the craft, by all means, prioritize restringing the tenor and 1st capo. While the strings are off, CA the bridge pins...its not ideal, but will improve the tunability of this instrument considerably, for your practice, and give you lots of other stringing skills as a bonus. 



------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 10:12
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

Jim, Discouraging, but helpful.  Thanks!

Eric

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 08:54
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: beeswax

Eric,

I'm not sure where you are on the learning curve of tuning, as you mention you are working on improving your temperament. 45 year old Kawai's often are impossible to tune. The corrosion and rendering, combined with the design of the wire's front segment, which I call the "stabilizing length", (ie the length of wire between agraffe and the tuning pin), Jon calls it the NSL (non-speaking length), is a really challenging design and condition to get past in trying to really nail your targets. That segment of wire, determines how stable your tuning will be, which is why I call it the stabilizing length. If it is in the condition yours is in, you simply will not be able to "read", or make and educated guess as to how much tension is in that segment of wire. If you can't "read" the tension in that segment, you have no idea whether the tension is acceptably close to the speaking length's tension or not. If it is not close to the speaking lengths(SL) tension, the pitch will drift almost immediately, no matter what you do.

Said another way, you don't have a prayer, and its not about you...its about the physical structure you are facing, is just not tune-able.  In order to practice it would be really helpful to restring, and reconfigure the counterbearing configuration in that front segment. Restringing really needs to include bridge work as well, but in this case, just to practice tuning, I would recommend restringing, and re-profiling the agraffes at the least, or getting a different piano to practice on.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 08:19
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

And where do I order CBL?

Thanks!

Eric

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 07:35
From: Jon Page
Subject: beeswax

I took another, closer look at the photo. The tenor mute felt appears to be exerting upwards pressure on the wire. In this case, the wire is pitted and locked to the felt. Changing tension releases the keyed-in grip with the resulting tick and tension jump. The wire does not draw smoothly and the NSL has to be significantly altered for the wire to skip across the pitted interface.  And when it does, the pitch is not on target.

CBL may help but not as much as new wire.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 07:27
From: Jon Page
Subject: beeswax

I made CBL with help from Joe Goss. He told me the appropriate vehicle to use with a lubricant component.

It reduces friction at the bearing points. As with anything, not all users like the product.  I do !

It is also a great center pin lubricant, key pin cleaner, etc.

However, your ticking problem is not caused by wires touching coils or other wires. Wires encroaching on others causes tuning instability in the wire that touches the string you are tuning. As the tension is changed on your wire, the rubbing against an adjacent wire will affect that wire's Non Speaking Length (NSL) tension. So the string you previously tuned, has drifted. It's impossible to 'keep all the balls in the air'.

The ticking more than likely it coming from the dissimilar metals at the bearing points which has corroded/pitted the wire. The same goes for tenor c/b felt.
The bearing points on your Kawai lift the wire off the felt (which is there to mute) so no downwards pressure appears to be an issue.

I have eliminated the ratcheting on c/b felt with the installation of Counter Bearing Aliquots.

Another issue is work-hardening of the wire in the top two treble sections. The wire has permanently been forced into the curve and does not render well.
I tuned a C7 in a venue and the treble is stubborn, even with CBL. But the few instances where strings have broken, the replacements tune fine. I suggested restringing the top two sections.

I tuned a 45+ y/o S&S B last week and had the same issue in the treble. Lowering or raising the pitch, the wire did not want to move. Restringing was recommended but is not in the cards.

As for the pins being off-center, don't worry about it. The bushing is keeping it away from the webbing. You could even repin with the next size up and not have a problem.  If the pins are tight, restring using the original pins and make the coils on a dummy pin.

Jim's advise is good if you want to eliminate the wires touching other wires or coils. You don't need much clearance to be effective.


------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 18:00
From: Alan Eder
Subject: beeswax

CBL = Counter Bearing Lube, a concoction devised by Jon Page (and available from him...my second pint arrived just today).

Do not let its name have you inferring limitations for its use. Seems to work wherever other liquid lubricants used on pianos work.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 17:21
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

Please expand on "Jon Page's CBL".

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 14:44
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: beeswax

Mr.Schell,

before you try melting something right over the tuning pin bushing I'd suggest you try using Jon Page's CBL at the agraffe and the counterbearing.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 11:48
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

I've been having problems with the midsection tuning pins on my home Kawai KG-6C.  Several pins move in "klinks" making fine tuning difficult, and it has been a barrier in trying to improve my temperament tuning for the exam.

I finally noticed that a number of the wires on the middle and front pins are in contact with the back pin (coil), and that seems to be the cause of the jumpy moves.  It looks like some of the pins are driven in more than others--not all the say down to the plate, but the coils are lower than others.  Also in appears some of the bushings are not centered in the plate holes.  Anyway, this is a 45 year old piano.

So, first solution: I loosened the offending wire and insert plastic post-it tabs to try to ease the friction.  That seems to help.

Today's solution:  apply beeswax as a lubricant to the rubbing spots.  I'm thinking about using a soldering iron to melt the was onto the wires in the specific locations.  My thinking is that, compared to other lubricants, the was will remain solid and not migrate into the pinblock.

So, my question is: is this reasonable?  Does anyone want to say "don't do that!" ?  Or other suggestions for a better solution?

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236
------------------------------

Would you consider removing the felt and muting the nsl with stringing braid?

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 08:54
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: beeswax

Eric,

I'm not sure where you are on the learning curve of tuning, as you mention you are working on improving your temperament. 45 year old Kawai's often are impossible to tune. The corrosion and rendering, combined with the design of the wire's front segment, which I call the "stabilizing length", (ie the length of wire between agraffe and the tuning pin), Jon calls it the NSL (non-speaking length), is a really challenging design and condition to get past in trying to really nail your targets. That segment of wire, determines how stable your tuning will be, which is why I call it the stabilizing length. If it is in the condition yours is in, you simply will not be able to "read", or make and educated guess as to how much tension is in that segment of wire. If you can't "read" the tension in that segment, you have no idea whether the tension is acceptably close to the speaking length's tension or not. If it is not close to the speaking lengths(SL) tension, the pitch will drift almost immediately, no matter what you do.

Said another way, you don't have a prayer, and its not about you...its about the physical structure you are facing, is just not tune-able.  In order to practice it would be really helpful to restring, and reconfigure the counterbearing configuration in that front segment. Restringing really needs to include bridge work as well, but in this case, just to practice tuning, I would recommend restringing, and re-profiling the agraffes at the least, or getting a different piano to practice on.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 08:19
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

And where do I order CBL?

Thanks!

Eric

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 07:35
From: Jon Page
Subject: beeswax

I took another, closer look at the photo. The tenor mute felt appears to be exerting upwards pressure on the wire. In this case, the wire is pitted and locked to the felt. Changing tension releases the keyed-in grip with the resulting tick and tension jump. The wire does not draw smoothly and the NSL has to be significantly altered for the wire to skip across the pitted interface.  And when it does, the pitch is not on target.

CBL may help but not as much as new wire.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 07:27
From: Jon Page
Subject: beeswax

I made CBL with help from Joe Goss. He told me the appropriate vehicle to use with a lubricant component.

It reduces friction at the bearing points. As with anything, not all users like the product.  I do !

It is also a great center pin lubricant, key pin cleaner, etc.

However, your ticking problem is not caused by wires touching coils or other wires. Wires encroaching on others causes tuning instability in the wire that touches the string you are tuning. As the tension is changed on your wire, the rubbing against an adjacent wire will affect that wire's Non Speaking Length (NSL) tension. So the string you previously tuned, has drifted. It's impossible to 'keep all the balls in the air'.

The ticking more than likely it coming from the dissimilar metals at the bearing points which has corroded/pitted the wire. The same goes for tenor c/b felt.
The bearing points on your Kawai lift the wire off the felt (which is there to mute) so no downwards pressure appears to be an issue.

I have eliminated the ratcheting on c/b felt with the installation of Counter Bearing Aliquots.

Another issue is work-hardening of the wire in the top two treble sections. The wire has permanently been forced into the curve and does not render well.
I tuned a C7 in a venue and the treble is stubborn, even with CBL. But the few instances where strings have broken, the replacements tune fine. I suggested restringing the top two sections.

I tuned a 45+ y/o S&S B last week and had the same issue in the treble. Lowering or raising the pitch, the wire did not want to move. Restringing was recommended but is not in the cards.

As for the pins being off-center, don't worry about it. The bushing is keeping it away from the webbing. You could even repin with the next size up and not have a problem.  If the pins are tight, restring using the original pins and make the coils on a dummy pin.

Jim's advise is good if you want to eliminate the wires touching other wires or coils. You don't need much clearance to be effective.


------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 18:00
From: Alan Eder
Subject: beeswax

CBL = Counter Bearing Lube, a concoction devised by Jon Page (and available from him...my second pint arrived just today).

Do not let its name have you inferring limitations for its use. Seems to work wherever other liquid lubricants used on pianos work.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 17:21
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

Please expand on "Jon Page's CBL".

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 14:44
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: beeswax

Mr.Schell,

before you try melting something right over the tuning pin bushing I'd suggest you try using Jon Page's CBL at the agraffe and the counterbearing.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 11:48
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

I've been having problems with the midsection tuning pins on my home Kawai KG-6C.  Several pins move in "klinks" making fine tuning difficult, and it has been a barrier in trying to improve my temperament tuning for the exam.

I finally noticed that a number of the wires on the middle and front pins are in contact with the back pin (coil), and that seems to be the cause of the jumpy moves.  It looks like some of the pins are driven in more than others--not all the say down to the plate, but the coils are lower than others.  Also in appears some of the bushings are not centered in the plate holes.  Anyway, this is a 45 year old piano.

So, first solution: I loosened the offending wire and insert plastic post-it tabs to try to ease the friction.  That seems to help.

Today's solution:  apply beeswax as a lubricant to the rubbing spots.  I'm thinking about using a soldering iron to melt the was onto the wires in the specific locations.  My thinking is that, compared to other lubricants, the was will remain solid and not migrate into the pinblock.

So, my question is: is this reasonable?  Does anyone want to say "don't do that!" ?  Or other suggestions for a better solution?

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236
------------------------------

Cancel that.  The felt is very thin and covers something metal.


Maybe cover it (or replace it) with a thin piece of teflon?

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 10:16
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

Would you consider removing the felt and muting the nsl with stringing braid?

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 08:54
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: beeswax

Eric,

I'm not sure where you are on the learning curve of tuning, as you mention you are working on improving your temperament. 45 year old Kawai's often are impossible to tune. The corrosion and rendering, combined with the design of the wire's front segment, which I call the "stabilizing length", (ie the length of wire between agraffe and the tuning pin), Jon calls it the NSL (non-speaking length), is a really challenging design and condition to get past in trying to really nail your targets. That segment of wire, determines how stable your tuning will be, which is why I call it the stabilizing length. If it is in the condition yours is in, you simply will not be able to "read", or make and educated guess as to how much tension is in that segment of wire. If you can't "read" the tension in that segment, you have no idea whether the tension is acceptably close to the speaking length's tension or not. If it is not close to the speaking lengths(SL) tension, the pitch will drift almost immediately, no matter what you do.

Said another way, you don't have a prayer, and its not about you...its about the physical structure you are facing, is just not tune-able.  In order to practice it would be really helpful to restring, and reconfigure the counterbearing configuration in that front segment. Restringing really needs to include bridge work as well, but in this case, just to practice tuning, I would recommend restringing, and re-profiling the agraffes at the least, or getting a different piano to practice on.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 08:19
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

And where do I order CBL?

Thanks!

Eric

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 07:35
From: Jon Page
Subject: beeswax

I took another, closer look at the photo. The tenor mute felt appears to be exerting upwards pressure on the wire. In this case, the wire is pitted and locked to the felt. Changing tension releases the keyed-in grip with the resulting tick and tension jump. The wire does not draw smoothly and the NSL has to be significantly altered for the wire to skip across the pitted interface.  And when it does, the pitch is not on target.

CBL may help but not as much as new wire.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 07:27
From: Jon Page
Subject: beeswax

I made CBL with help from Joe Goss. He told me the appropriate vehicle to use with a lubricant component.

It reduces friction at the bearing points. As with anything, not all users like the product.  I do !

It is also a great center pin lubricant, key pin cleaner, etc.

However, your ticking problem is not caused by wires touching coils or other wires. Wires encroaching on others causes tuning instability in the wire that touches the string you are tuning. As the tension is changed on your wire, the rubbing against an adjacent wire will affect that wire's Non Speaking Length (NSL) tension. So the string you previously tuned, has drifted. It's impossible to 'keep all the balls in the air'.

The ticking more than likely it coming from the dissimilar metals at the bearing points which has corroded/pitted the wire. The same goes for tenor c/b felt.
The bearing points on your Kawai lift the wire off the felt (which is there to mute) so no downwards pressure appears to be an issue.

I have eliminated the ratcheting on c/b felt with the installation of Counter Bearing Aliquots.

Another issue is work-hardening of the wire in the top two treble sections. The wire has permanently been forced into the curve and does not render well.
I tuned a C7 in a venue and the treble is stubborn, even with CBL. But the few instances where strings have broken, the replacements tune fine. I suggested restringing the top two sections.

I tuned a 45+ y/o S&S B last week and had the same issue in the treble. Lowering or raising the pitch, the wire did not want to move. Restringing was recommended but is not in the cards.

As for the pins being off-center, don't worry about it. The bushing is keeping it away from the webbing. You could even repin with the next size up and not have a problem.  If the pins are tight, restring using the original pins and make the coils on a dummy pin.

Jim's advise is good if you want to eliminate the wires touching other wires or coils. You don't need much clearance to be effective.


------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 18:00
From: Alan Eder
Subject: beeswax

CBL = Counter Bearing Lube, a concoction devised by Jon Page (and available from him...my second pint arrived just today).

Do not let its name have you inferring limitations for its use. Seems to work wherever other liquid lubricants used on pianos work.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 17:21
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

Please expand on "Jon Page's CBL".

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 14:44
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: beeswax

Mr.Schell,

before you try melting something right over the tuning pin bushing I'd suggest you try using Jon Page's CBL at the agraffe and the counterbearing.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 11:48
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

I've been having problems with the midsection tuning pins on my home Kawai KG-6C.  Several pins move in "klinks" making fine tuning difficult, and it has been a barrier in trying to improve my temperament tuning for the exam.

I finally noticed that a number of the wires on the middle and front pins are in contact with the back pin (coil), and that seems to be the cause of the jumpy moves.  It looks like some of the pins are driven in more than others--not all the say down to the plate, but the coils are lower than others.  Also in appears some of the bushings are not centered in the plate holes.  Anyway, this is a 45 year old piano.

So, first solution: I loosened the offending wire and insert plastic post-it tabs to try to ease the friction.  That seems to help.

Today's solution:  apply beeswax as a lubricant to the rubbing spots.  I'm thinking about using a soldering iron to melt the was onto the wires in the specific locations.  My thinking is that, compared to other lubricants, the was will remain solid and not migrate into the pinblock.

So, my question is: is this reasonable?  Does anyone want to say "don't do that!" ?  Or other suggestions for a better solution?

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236
------------------------------

Don't replace the felt at all.  Having the felt located between the counterbearing bar, and the agraffe, is a very challenging set up for rendering. It breaks the NSL into several independent segments, which then have to all be equalized. Reduce the bearing surface on the counterbearing bar, by filing it to a smaller contact surface...that is a very wide radius counterbearing bar, and it adds a huge amount of friction to the string bearing point. Eliminate the felt altogether, and put a very small, not very compressed piece of felt between the counterbearing bar and the pins.

If you have a drill press, remove the agraffes and reprofile. I can describe this if you go this far.

Just changing out the wire, will have a major effect, as you are removing the corroded string, which has a bearing surface similar to sandpaper. You could also change out the wire, and apply some dag to the counterbearing before stringing, if you don't have the equipment to reduce the counterbearing friction surface. But forget the damn felt, its worse than useless between agraffe and counterbearing. They put it in there because they were concerned about string noise in that section, because the length between agraffe and counterbearing is so long.

Jon also described a technique to deal with that felted segment above.  

To just improve the tuning, you could try just changing out a note or two with new wire, no felt, and dag, and see how that improves things, as a test. But don't be shy...its just a machine, and you can't wreck it more than its already challenged. All you can do is improve it.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 10:41
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

Cancel that.  The felt is very thin and covers something metal.


Maybe cover it (or replace it) with a thin piece of teflon?

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 10:16
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

Would you consider removing the felt and muting the nsl with stringing braid?

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 08:54
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: beeswax

Eric,

I'm not sure where you are on the learning curve of tuning, as you mention you are working on improving your temperament. 45 year old Kawai's often are impossible to tune. The corrosion and rendering, combined with the design of the wire's front segment, which I call the "stabilizing length", (ie the length of wire between agraffe and the tuning pin), Jon calls it the NSL (non-speaking length), is a really challenging design and condition to get past in trying to really nail your targets. That segment of wire, determines how stable your tuning will be, which is why I call it the stabilizing length. If it is in the condition yours is in, you simply will not be able to "read", or make and educated guess as to how much tension is in that segment of wire. If you can't "read" the tension in that segment, you have no idea whether the tension is acceptably close to the speaking length's tension or not. If it is not close to the speaking lengths(SL) tension, the pitch will drift almost immediately, no matter what you do.

Said another way, you don't have a prayer, and its not about you...its about the physical structure you are facing, is just not tune-able.  In order to practice it would be really helpful to restring, and reconfigure the counterbearing configuration in that front segment. Restringing really needs to include bridge work as well, but in this case, just to practice tuning, I would recommend restringing, and re-profiling the agraffes at the least, or getting a different piano to practice on.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 08:19
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

And where do I order CBL?

Thanks!

Eric

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 07:35
From: Jon Page
Subject: beeswax

I took another, closer look at the photo. The tenor mute felt appears to be exerting upwards pressure on the wire. In this case, the wire is pitted and locked to the felt. Changing tension releases the keyed-in grip with the resulting tick and tension jump. The wire does not draw smoothly and the NSL has to be significantly altered for the wire to skip across the pitted interface.  And when it does, the pitch is not on target.

CBL may help but not as much as new wire.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 07:27
From: Jon Page
Subject: beeswax

I made CBL with help from Joe Goss. He told me the appropriate vehicle to use with a lubricant component.

It reduces friction at the bearing points. As with anything, not all users like the product.  I do !

It is also a great center pin lubricant, key pin cleaner, etc.

However, your ticking problem is not caused by wires touching coils or other wires. Wires encroaching on others causes tuning instability in the wire that touches the string you are tuning. As the tension is changed on your wire, the rubbing against an adjacent wire will affect that wire's Non Speaking Length (NSL) tension. So the string you previously tuned, has drifted. It's impossible to 'keep all the balls in the air'.

The ticking more than likely it coming from the dissimilar metals at the bearing points which has corroded/pitted the wire. The same goes for tenor c/b felt.
The bearing points on your Kawai lift the wire off the felt (which is there to mute) so no downwards pressure appears to be an issue.

I have eliminated the ratcheting on c/b felt with the installation of Counter Bearing Aliquots.

Another issue is work-hardening of the wire in the top two treble sections. The wire has permanently been forced into the curve and does not render well.
I tuned a C7 in a venue and the treble is stubborn, even with CBL. But the few instances where strings have broken, the replacements tune fine. I suggested restringing the top two sections.

I tuned a 45+ y/o S&S B last week and had the same issue in the treble. Lowering or raising the pitch, the wire did not want to move. Restringing was recommended but is not in the cards.

As for the pins being off-center, don't worry about it. The bushing is keeping it away from the webbing. You could even repin with the next size up and not have a problem.  If the pins are tight, restring using the original pins and make the coils on a dummy pin.

Jim's advise is good if you want to eliminate the wires touching other wires or coils. You don't need much clearance to be effective.


------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 18:00
From: Alan Eder
Subject: beeswax

CBL = Counter Bearing Lube, a concoction devised by Jon Page (and available from him...my second pint arrived just today).

Do not let its name have you inferring limitations for its use. Seems to work wherever other liquid lubricants used on pianos work.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 17:21
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

Please expand on "Jon Page's CBL".

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 14:44
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: beeswax

Mr.Schell,

before you try melting something right over the tuning pin bushing I'd suggest you try using Jon Page's CBL at the agraffe and the counterbearing.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 11:48
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

I've been having problems with the midsection tuning pins on my home Kawai KG-6C.  Several pins move in "klinks" making fine tuning difficult, and it has been a barrier in trying to improve my temperament tuning for the exam.

I finally noticed that a number of the wires on the middle and front pins are in contact with the back pin (coil), and that seems to be the cause of the jumpy moves.  It looks like some of the pins are driven in more than others--not all the say down to the plate, but the coils are lower than others.  Also in appears some of the bushings are not centered in the plate holes.  Anyway, this is a 45 year old piano.

So, first solution: I loosened the offending wire and insert plastic post-it tabs to try to ease the friction.  That seems to help.

Today's solution:  apply beeswax as a lubricant to the rubbing spots.  I'm thinking about using a soldering iron to melt the was onto the wires in the specific locations.  My thinking is that, compared to other lubricants, the was will remain solid and not migrate into the pinblock.

So, my question is: is this reasonable?  Does anyone want to say "don't do that!" ?  Or other suggestions for a better solution?

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236
------------------------------

Fine tuning does not involve turning the pin. Fine tuning addresses only the pin torsion and the NSL tension. The best explanation of tuning I've heard is: An ever diminishing series of moving the pitch sharp and flat of pitch to determine the torsion in the pin. With the last motion, nudging the tension sharp to target.  This last effort leaves the NSL slightly sharper than the Speaking Length (SL) due to the friction at the bearings.

Had you come down to pitch and left it, the NSL tension would be lower than the SL and on a hard blow, will let the lower tension ease thru and put the string off pitch. Whereas, a NSL which is slightly higher in tension than the SL, the friction will not break and is stable.

The last upwards motion needs to be very small, lest you leave twist in the pin and it relaxes and lowers the NSL tension. A nudge, a flick to set the pin's torsion and the NSL's tension.

A piano has to be in tune for it to be tuned. Changing pitch produces a moving target. A second pass will make it better but depending on the amount of pitch correction; the case and string frame will still react to the added tension over the course of the next few days/week.  For performance venues, I recommend tuning a week prior and again for the performance.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 11:33
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: beeswax

Don't replace the felt at all.  Having the felt located between the counterbearing bar, and the agraffe, is a very challenging set up for rendering. It breaks the NSL into several independent segments, which then have to all be equalized. Reduce the bearing surface on the counterbearing bar, by filing it to a smaller contact surface...that is a very wide radius counterbearing bar, and it adds a huge amount of friction to the string bearing point. Eliminate the felt altogether, and put a very small, not very compressed piece of felt between the counterbearing bar and the pins.

If you have a drill press, remove the agraffes and reprofile. I can describe this if you go this far.

Just changing out the wire, will have a major effect, as you are removing the corroded string, which has a bearing surface similar to sandpaper. You could also change out the wire, and apply some dag to the counterbearing before stringing, if you don't have the equipment to reduce the counterbearing friction surface. But forget the damn felt, its worse than useless between agraffe and counterbearing. They put it in there because they were concerned about string noise in that section, because the length between agraffe and counterbearing is so long.

Jon also described a technique to deal with that felted segment above.

To just improve the tuning, you could try just changing out a note or two with new wire, no felt, and dag, and see how that improves things, as a test. But don't be shy...its just a machine, and you can't wreck it more than its already challenged. All you can do is improve it.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 10:41
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

Cancel that.  The felt is very thin and covers something metal.


Maybe cover it (or replace it) with a thin piece of teflon?

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 10:16
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

Would you consider removing the felt and muting the nsl with stringing braid?

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 08:54
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: beeswax

Eric,

I'm not sure where you are on the learning curve of tuning, as you mention you are working on improving your temperament. 45 year old Kawai's often are impossible to tune. The corrosion and rendering, combined with the design of the wire's front segment, which I call the "stabilizing length", (ie the length of wire between agraffe and the tuning pin), Jon calls it the NSL (non-speaking length), is a really challenging design and condition to get past in trying to really nail your targets. That segment of wire, determines how stable your tuning will be, which is why I call it the stabilizing length. If it is in the condition yours is in, you simply will not be able to "read", or make and educated guess as to how much tension is in that segment of wire. If you can't "read" the tension in that segment, you have no idea whether the tension is acceptably close to the speaking length's tension or not. If it is not close to the speaking lengths(SL) tension, the pitch will drift almost immediately, no matter what you do.

Said another way, you don't have a prayer, and its not about you...its about the physical structure you are facing, is just not tune-able.  In order to practice it would be really helpful to restring, and reconfigure the counterbearing configuration in that front segment. Restringing really needs to include bridge work as well, but in this case, just to practice tuning, I would recommend restringing, and re-profiling the agraffes at the least, or getting a different piano to practice on.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 08:19
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

And where do I order CBL?

Thanks!

Eric

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 07:35
From: Jon Page
Subject: beeswax

I took another, closer look at the photo. The tenor mute felt appears to be exerting upwards pressure on the wire. In this case, the wire is pitted and locked to the felt. Changing tension releases the keyed-in grip with the resulting tick and tension jump. The wire does not draw smoothly and the NSL has to be significantly altered for the wire to skip across the pitted interface.  And when it does, the pitch is not on target.

CBL may help but not as much as new wire.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 07:27
From: Jon Page
Subject: beeswax

I made CBL with help from Joe Goss. He told me the appropriate vehicle to use with a lubricant component.

It reduces friction at the bearing points. As with anything, not all users like the product.  I do !

It is also a great center pin lubricant, key pin cleaner, etc.

However, your ticking problem is not caused by wires touching coils or other wires. Wires encroaching on others causes tuning instability in the wire that touches the string you are tuning. As the tension is changed on your wire, the rubbing against an adjacent wire will affect that wire's Non Speaking Length (NSL) tension. So the string you previously tuned, has drifted. It's impossible to 'keep all the balls in the air'.

The ticking more than likely it coming from the dissimilar metals at the bearing points which has corroded/pitted the wire. The same goes for tenor c/b felt.
The bearing points on your Kawai lift the wire off the felt (which is there to mute) so no downwards pressure appears to be an issue.

I have eliminated the ratcheting on c/b felt with the installation of Counter Bearing Aliquots.

Another issue is work-hardening of the wire in the top two treble sections. The wire has permanently been forced into the curve and does not render well.
I tuned a C7 in a venue and the treble is stubborn, even with CBL. But the few instances where strings have broken, the replacements tune fine. I suggested restringing the top two sections.

I tuned a 45+ y/o S&S B last week and had the same issue in the treble. Lowering or raising the pitch, the wire did not want to move. Restringing was recommended but is not in the cards.

As for the pins being off-center, don't worry about it. The bushing is keeping it away from the webbing. You could even repin with the next size up and not have a problem.  If the pins are tight, restring using the original pins and make the coils on a dummy pin.

Jim's advise is good if you want to eliminate the wires touching other wires or coils. You don't need much clearance to be effective.


------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 18:00
From: Alan Eder
Subject: beeswax

CBL = Counter Bearing Lube, a concoction devised by Jon Page (and available from him...my second pint arrived just today).

Do not let its name have you inferring limitations for its use. Seems to work wherever other liquid lubricants used on pianos work.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 17:21
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

Please expand on "Jon Page's CBL".

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 14:44
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: beeswax

Mr.Schell,

before you try melting something right over the tuning pin bushing I'd suggest you try using Jon Page's CBL at the agraffe and the counterbearing.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 11:48
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

I've been having problems with the midsection tuning pins on my home Kawai KG-6C.  Several pins move in "klinks" making fine tuning difficult, and it has been a barrier in trying to improve my temperament tuning for the exam.

I finally noticed that a number of the wires on the middle and front pins are in contact with the back pin (coil), and that seems to be the cause of the jumpy moves.  It looks like some of the pins are driven in more than others--not all the say down to the plate, but the coils are lower than others.  Also in appears some of the bushings are not centered in the plate holes.  Anyway, this is a 45 year old piano.

So, first solution: I loosened the offending wire and insert plastic post-it tabs to try to ease the friction.  That seems to help.

Today's solution:  apply beeswax as a lubricant to the rubbing spots.  I'm thinking about using a soldering iron to melt the was onto the wires in the specific locations.  My thinking is that, compared to other lubricants, the was will remain solid and not migrate into the pinblock.

So, my question is: is this reasonable?  Does anyone want to say "don't do that!" ?  Or other suggestions for a better solution?

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236
------------------------------

Jim,
Yes, please describe reprofiling the agraffes.  I'm not sure I'll go that far, but it's a possibility.

Also, what would be the right way to recondition the bridge?  I don't want to replace the bridge cap--that's more surgery than I want to do.  In the end, I will probably just CA the bridge pins and go from there.

Eric

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 11:33
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: beeswax

Don't replace the felt at all.  Having the felt located between the counterbearing bar, and the agraffe, is a very challenging set up for rendering. It breaks the NSL into several independent segments, which then have to all be equalized. Reduce the bearing surface on the counterbearing bar, by filing it to a smaller contact surface...that is a very wide radius counterbearing bar, and it adds a huge amount of friction to the string bearing point. Eliminate the felt altogether, and put a very small, not very compressed piece of felt between the counterbearing bar and the pins.

If you have a drill press, remove the agraffes and reprofile. I can describe this if you go this far.

Just changing out the wire, will have a major effect, as you are removing the corroded string, which has a bearing surface similar to sandpaper. You could also change out the wire, and apply some dag to the counterbearing before stringing, if you don't have the equipment to reduce the counterbearing friction surface. But forget the damn felt, its worse than useless between agraffe and counterbearing. They put it in there because they were concerned about string noise in that section, because the length between agraffe and counterbearing is so long.

Jon also described a technique to deal with that felted segment above.

To just improve the tuning, you could try just changing out a note or two with new wire, no felt, and dag, and see how that improves things, as a test. But don't be shy...its just a machine, and you can't wreck it more than its already challenged. All you can do is improve it.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 10:41
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

Cancel that.  The felt is very thin and covers something metal.


Maybe cover it (or replace it) with a thin piece of teflon?

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 10:16
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

Would you consider removing the felt and muting the nsl with stringing braid?

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 08:54
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: beeswax

Eric,

I'm not sure where you are on the learning curve of tuning, as you mention you are working on improving your temperament. 45 year old Kawai's often are impossible to tune. The corrosion and rendering, combined with the design of the wire's front segment, which I call the "stabilizing length", (ie the length of wire between agraffe and the tuning pin), Jon calls it the NSL (non-speaking length), is a really challenging design and condition to get past in trying to really nail your targets. That segment of wire, determines how stable your tuning will be, which is why I call it the stabilizing length. If it is in the condition yours is in, you simply will not be able to "read", or make and educated guess as to how much tension is in that segment of wire. If you can't "read" the tension in that segment, you have no idea whether the tension is acceptably close to the speaking length's tension or not. If it is not close to the speaking lengths(SL) tension, the pitch will drift almost immediately, no matter what you do.

Said another way, you don't have a prayer, and its not about you...its about the physical structure you are facing, is just not tune-able.  In order to practice it would be really helpful to restring, and reconfigure the counterbearing configuration in that front segment. Restringing really needs to include bridge work as well, but in this case, just to practice tuning, I would recommend restringing, and re-profiling the agraffes at the least, or getting a different piano to practice on.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 08:19
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

And where do I order CBL?

Thanks!

Eric

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 07:35
From: Jon Page
Subject: beeswax

I took another, closer look at the photo. The tenor mute felt appears to be exerting upwards pressure on the wire. In this case, the wire is pitted and locked to the felt. Changing tension releases the keyed-in grip with the resulting tick and tension jump. The wire does not draw smoothly and the NSL has to be significantly altered for the wire to skip across the pitted interface.  And when it does, the pitch is not on target.

CBL may help but not as much as new wire.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 07:27
From: Jon Page
Subject: beeswax

I made CBL with help from Joe Goss. He told me the appropriate vehicle to use with a lubricant component.

It reduces friction at the bearing points. As with anything, not all users like the product.  I do !

It is also a great center pin lubricant, key pin cleaner, etc.

However, your ticking problem is not caused by wires touching coils or other wires. Wires encroaching on others causes tuning instability in the wire that touches the string you are tuning. As the tension is changed on your wire, the rubbing against an adjacent wire will affect that wire's Non Speaking Length (NSL) tension. So the string you previously tuned, has drifted. It's impossible to 'keep all the balls in the air'.

The ticking more than likely it coming from the dissimilar metals at the bearing points which has corroded/pitted the wire. The same goes for tenor c/b felt.
The bearing points on your Kawai lift the wire off the felt (which is there to mute) so no downwards pressure appears to be an issue.

I have eliminated the ratcheting on c/b felt with the installation of Counter Bearing Aliquots.

Another issue is work-hardening of the wire in the top two treble sections. The wire has permanently been forced into the curve and does not render well.
I tuned a C7 in a venue and the treble is stubborn, even with CBL. But the few instances where strings have broken, the replacements tune fine. I suggested restringing the top two sections.

I tuned a 45+ y/o S&S B last week and had the same issue in the treble. Lowering or raising the pitch, the wire did not want to move. Restringing was recommended but is not in the cards.

As for the pins being off-center, don't worry about it. The bushing is keeping it away from the webbing. You could even repin with the next size up and not have a problem.  If the pins are tight, restring using the original pins and make the coils on a dummy pin.

Jim's advise is good if you want to eliminate the wires touching other wires or coils. You don't need much clearance to be effective.


------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 18:00
From: Alan Eder
Subject: beeswax

CBL = Counter Bearing Lube, a concoction devised by Jon Page (and available from him...my second pint arrived just today).

Do not let its name have you inferring limitations for its use. Seems to work wherever other liquid lubricants used on pianos work.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 17:21
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

Please expand on "Jon Page's CBL".

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 14:44
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: beeswax

Mr.Schell,

before you try melting something right over the tuning pin bushing I'd suggest you try using Jon Page's CBL at the agraffe and the counterbearing.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 11:48
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

I've been having problems with the midsection tuning pins on my home Kawai KG-6C.  Several pins move in "klinks" making fine tuning difficult, and it has been a barrier in trying to improve my temperament tuning for the exam.

I finally noticed that a number of the wires on the middle and front pins are in contact with the back pin (coil), and that seems to be the cause of the jumpy moves.  It looks like some of the pins are driven in more than others--not all the say down to the plate, but the coils are lower than others.  Also in appears some of the bushings are not centered in the plate holes.  Anyway, this is a 45 year old piano.

So, first solution: I loosened the offending wire and insert plastic post-it tabs to try to ease the friction.  That seems to help.

Today's solution:  apply beeswax as a lubricant to the rubbing spots.  I'm thinking about using a soldering iron to melt the was onto the wires in the specific locations.  My thinking is that, compared to other lubricants, the was will remain solid and not migrate into the pinblock.

So, my question is: is this reasonable?  Does anyone want to say "don't do that!" ?  Or other suggestions for a better solution?

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236
------------------------------

Another low key way to bet the string to behave better, at least temporarily, is to simply lower the tension on the both strings that share a hitch pin together, then bring them both back up to pitch again. If your only goal is practicing tuning, this might be the quickest lowest key way to get the strings rendering, at least temporarily. While you let them down, take them out of the way, and CA the bridge pins.

CA'ing the bridge pins can be done with a single drop for each pin, with strings on and at tension. But at 45 years old, this piano might need more than a drop for a bandaid fix. If you CA more than one drop, remove the strings, so they don't hang up on the CA.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-29-2020 11:23
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

Jim,
Yes, please describe reprofiling the agraffes.  I'm not sure I'll go that far, but it's a possibility.

Also, what would be the right way to recondition the bridge?  I don't want to replace the bridge cap--that's more surgery than I want to do.  In the end, I will probably just CA the bridge pins and go from there.

Eric

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 11:33
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: beeswax

Don't replace the felt at all.  Having the felt located between the counterbearing bar, and the agraffe, is a very challenging set up for rendering. It breaks the NSL into several independent segments, which then have to all be equalized. Reduce the bearing surface on the counterbearing bar, by filing it to a smaller contact surface...that is a very wide radius counterbearing bar, and it adds a huge amount of friction to the string bearing point. Eliminate the felt altogether, and put a very small, not very compressed piece of felt between the counterbearing bar and the pins.

If you have a drill press, remove the agraffes and reprofile. I can describe this if you go this far.

Just changing out the wire, will have a major effect, as you are removing the corroded string, which has a bearing surface similar to sandpaper. You could also change out the wire, and apply some dag to the counterbearing before stringing, if you don't have the equipment to reduce the counterbearing friction surface. But forget the damn felt, its worse than useless between agraffe and counterbearing. They put it in there because they were concerned about string noise in that section, because the length between agraffe and counterbearing is so long.

Jon also described a technique to deal with that felted segment above.

To just improve the tuning, you could try just changing out a note or two with new wire, no felt, and dag, and see how that improves things, as a test. But don't be shy...its just a machine, and you can't wreck it more than its already challenged. All you can do is improve it.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 10:41
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

Cancel that.  The felt is very thin and covers something metal.


Maybe cover it (or replace it) with a thin piece of teflon?

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 10:16
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

Would you consider removing the felt and muting the nsl with stringing braid?

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 08:54
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: beeswax

Eric,

I'm not sure where you are on the learning curve of tuning, as you mention you are working on improving your temperament. 45 year old Kawai's often are impossible to tune. The corrosion and rendering, combined with the design of the wire's front segment, which I call the "stabilizing length", (ie the length of wire between agraffe and the tuning pin), Jon calls it the NSL (non-speaking length), is a really challenging design and condition to get past in trying to really nail your targets. That segment of wire, determines how stable your tuning will be, which is why I call it the stabilizing length. If it is in the condition yours is in, you simply will not be able to "read", or make and educated guess as to how much tension is in that segment of wire. If you can't "read" the tension in that segment, you have no idea whether the tension is acceptably close to the speaking length's tension or not. If it is not close to the speaking lengths(SL) tension, the pitch will drift almost immediately, no matter what you do.

Said another way, you don't have a prayer, and its not about you...its about the physical structure you are facing, is just not tune-able.  In order to practice it would be really helpful to restring, and reconfigure the counterbearing configuration in that front segment. Restringing really needs to include bridge work as well, but in this case, just to practice tuning, I would recommend restringing, and re-profiling the agraffes at the least, or getting a different piano to practice on.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 08:19
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

And where do I order CBL?

Thanks!

Eric

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 07:35
From: Jon Page
Subject: beeswax

I took another, closer look at the photo. The tenor mute felt appears to be exerting upwards pressure on the wire. In this case, the wire is pitted and locked to the felt. Changing tension releases the keyed-in grip with the resulting tick and tension jump. The wire does not draw smoothly and the NSL has to be significantly altered for the wire to skip across the pitted interface.  And when it does, the pitch is not on target.

CBL may help but not as much as new wire.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-28-2020 07:27
From: Jon Page
Subject: beeswax

I made CBL with help from Joe Goss. He told me the appropriate vehicle to use with a lubricant component.

It reduces friction at the bearing points. As with anything, not all users like the product.  I do !

It is also a great center pin lubricant, key pin cleaner, etc.

However, your ticking problem is not caused by wires touching coils or other wires. Wires encroaching on others causes tuning instability in the wire that touches the string you are tuning. As the tension is changed on your wire, the rubbing against an adjacent wire will affect that wire's Non Speaking Length (NSL) tension. So the string you previously tuned, has drifted. It's impossible to 'keep all the balls in the air'.

The ticking more than likely it coming from the dissimilar metals at the bearing points which has corroded/pitted the wire. The same goes for tenor c/b felt.
The bearing points on your Kawai lift the wire off the felt (which is there to mute) so no downwards pressure appears to be an issue.

I have eliminated the ratcheting on c/b felt with the installation of Counter Bearing Aliquots.

Another issue is work-hardening of the wire in the top two treble sections. The wire has permanently been forced into the curve and does not render well.
I tuned a C7 in a venue and the treble is stubborn, even with CBL. But the few instances where strings have broken, the replacements tune fine. I suggested restringing the top two sections.

I tuned a 45+ y/o S&S B last week and had the same issue in the treble. Lowering or raising the pitch, the wire did not want to move. Restringing was recommended but is not in the cards.

As for the pins being off-center, don't worry about it. The bushing is keeping it away from the webbing. You could even repin with the next size up and not have a problem.  If the pins are tight, restring using the original pins and make the coils on a dummy pin.

Jim's advise is good if you want to eliminate the wires touching other wires or coils. You don't need much clearance to be effective.


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Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 18:00
From: Alan Eder
Subject: beeswax

CBL = Counter Bearing Lube, a concoction devised by Jon Page (and available from him...my second pint arrived just today).

Do not let its name have you inferring limitations for its use. Seems to work wherever other liquid lubricants used on pianos work.

Alan

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Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 17:21
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

Please expand on "Jon Page's CBL".

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Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 14:44
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: beeswax

Mr.Schell,

before you try melting something right over the tuning pin bushing I'd suggest you try using Jon Page's CBL at the agraffe and the counterbearing.

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Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 10-27-2020 11:48
From: Eric Schell
Subject: beeswax

I've been having problems with the midsection tuning pins on my home Kawai KG-6C.  Several pins move in "klinks" making fine tuning difficult, and it has been a barrier in trying to improve my temperament tuning for the exam.

I finally noticed that a number of the wires on the middle and front pins are in contact with the back pin (coil), and that seems to be the cause of the jumpy moves.  It looks like some of the pins are driven in more than others--not all the say down to the plate, but the coils are lower than others.  Also in appears some of the bushings are not centered in the plate holes.  Anyway, this is a 45 year old piano.

So, first solution: I loosened the offending wire and insert plastic post-it tabs to try to ease the friction.  That seems to help.

Today's solution:  apply beeswax as a lubricant to the rubbing spots.  I'm thinking about using a soldering iron to melt the was onto the wires in the specific locations.  My thinking is that, compared to other lubricants, the was will remain solid and not migrate into the pinblock.

So, my question is: is this reasonable?  Does anyone want to say "don't do that!" ?  Or other suggestions for a better solution?

------------------------------
Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236
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