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music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

  • 1.  music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-04-2013 20:11
    Amazing how much energy can be expended complaining about something (here I am talking about threads and correct topics) when it is so easy to do something about it, ie start a new thread. For the sake of continuity, I will copy here a post by Jason Leininger from the thread "whole tone" tuning vs. using key pounder (those reading later may use the link to read earlier posts):

    John,
    I believe that when wire is cold drawn it is less likely to creep.  In addition, the more times the wire is drawn COLD through dies, without heating it in between gauges, the more it is work hardened.  This work hardening causes the elastic range to approach closer to the breaking the point, which makes the higher gauges increasingly less susceptible to creep, and also enhances their tone because they always reach pitch in the elastic range.....rather than the plastic range. I am by no means an expert on any of this.  It is just extremely interesting to me, and the majority of my inferences come from reading other peoples work.  Stephen Birkett's work is where I have gleaned much useful and interesting information. Another great study on this is The Historical Harpsichord- Metallurgy of the 17th and 18th century.  This information has raised many questions for me about modern wire, which I would think would be difficult to draw cold on account of its hardness and high carbon content.  On the other hand, low carbon wrought iron could be drawn cold because of its ductility.  Anyhow maybe Stephen can answer some more of these questions.  I am hoping to find some technical information on the modern wire drawing process?  Any leads?  
    -------------------------------------------
    Jason Leininger
    pittsburgh pa
    412-874-6992
    -------------------------------------------

    I don't have a lot of info on wire drawing, but have attended some presentations in the past and read a bit. I believe modern wire goes through some annealing and some "pickling" (being dipped in a bath that I believe is acidic) between draws. These processing steps are very important to the ultimate strength of the final product, which is based largely on the "fibrous" nature of the material, where the crystalline structure has been pulled and stretched. That is a summation of my impressions from what I read and heard a long time ago, and I'm sure someone can add more technical details. I would guess that the fibrous nature would have something to do with creep.

    You might want to look at what Juan Mas Cabre (of Pure Sound) has researched. 

    Additional strength was the aim for many decades, mostly in the 19th century. Some of it came from new materials (steel vs. "iron"), some from newly developed processes. The additional strength was a plus for many reasons, one being less string breakage, another being a more powerful instrument, one able to fill a larger hall. As wire became stronger, scaling became heavier, and there were many things that had to be done to compensate (stronger case, metal plate, heavier hammers, lower action ratio, etc., etc.).

    All of this is pretty well known at least in outline, but it is interesting to note how much the tail wagged the dog. The piano was an extraordinarily popular instrument, present in many, many homes (one is tempted to say most homes, in the middle and upper classes of Europe and America at least), but the design was driven in many aspects by the large concert hall, where only a tiny percentage of instruments lives. Home pianos don't need to be so darned loud, yet all pianos have this extraordinarily strong wire and the structure and hammer weight (and concomitant heavier touch and greater dip) to match it. Seems like there is room for something more along the lines of a mid 19th century piano for private use. It might even be feasible to do something along those lines in an economically viable way, in this particular day and age. A small scale manufacture for a niche, international market.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------


  • 2.  RE:music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Posted 12-04-2013 21:32
    > The piano was an extraordinarily popular instrument, present in many, many homes (one is tempted to say most homes, in the middle and upper classes of Europe and America at least), but the design was driven in many aspects by the large concert hall, where only a tiny percentage of instruments lives. Home pianos don't need to be so darned loud, yet all pianos have this extraordinarily strong wire and the structure and hammer weight (and concomitant heavier touch and greater dip) to match it. Seems like there is room for something more along the lines of a mid 19th century piano for private use. It might even be feasible to do something along those lines in an economically viable way, in this particular day and age. A small scale manufacture for a niche, international market.

    >Fred Strum

    He-he...here we go messing up a perfectly nice tidy new thread subject, and only on the second post...well actually on the first post(your fault)...must be a record...yeahhh!

    Fred, your observation above is singing the song I've been singing since I entered this world, and is one of my primary reasons for
    pursuing this line of work, second only to creating the conditions where I can revel in the sensation of beautiful sound.

    However much sense this chamber concept of sound makes, this simple concept is continually shot down as inappropriate to needs of "serious" musicians, from within the tech community and from within the tiny vertical market of big hall performers and big hall wannabe's.

    I agree with your "Seems like there is room for something more along the lines of a mid 19th century piano for private use." I have directed all...read all my efforts towards making this "duhh" concept heard, respected and purchased as the completely reasonable chamber/home size concept that it is. To this end, I've experimented with whatever versions of softer wires are available to create reduced tensions. These tensions are accompanied by system wide appropriate design parameters including light strike weights, softer hammers, action ratios at the high side of "modern", responsive boards, etc. The goal is to create pianos where the pianist does not need to struggle against the modern pianos inherent and venue inappropriate structure. Mind bogglingly, this big hall bias extends to and defines the upright as well...completely mind boggling it is too.

    I am, at this point, acquiring, entirely through the way my website communicates my respect for this home sized sound/tonal quality, numerous excellent clients. They are, to a one, frustrated and looking for a voice which will support their gut feeling that a piano does not have to blow them through the wall in order to be enjoyed.

    I welcome the work currently being done on these older style wires, and am well into using and scaling Paulello wires in both the wrapped and plain wire re-designed "modern piano" smaller pianos (up to 6-1/2' at this point). I am more than happy to work with the material conjectures that have been discussed as working hypotheses, even if they may not be proven fact at this point. Theory awaiting further study, etc, etc is all secondary to the only fact I know...that is, my fact is the sound I create...everything else, when push comes to shove, is negotiable. As long as the wires continue to pan out in practical tonal terms, this is all the fact I will be requiring.

    Jim Ialeggio  





    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------





  • 3.  RE:music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Posted 12-05-2013 09:28
    I can not agree more.  My main interest in materials and processes stems from my desire to play and hear pianos that do not bother my ears. Not only are modern pianos too powerful for many situations, the high tension steel wires seem to be more susceptible to inharmonicity and they do not bloom like older wire. My research and production of leather for piano hammers is nearly complete and I have recently been experimenting with Pleyel-like felts, using mixtures of alpaca and sheep's wool. Here I go again, ruining the thread on my first post.  Maybe we should title it Materials, Processes, and Techniques Involved in Piano Manufacturing.  That may be broad enough.

    -------------------------------------------
    Jason Leininger
    pittsburgh pa
    412-874-6992
    -------------------------------------------








  • 4.  RE:music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-05-2013 12:06
    I think we should be aware of the role music wire development played in the development of the modern piano. The processes used to make it were aimed almost exclusively at becoming stronger, hence potentially louder, without much attention to any other factors. It is interesting that the most comprehensive extended conference ever held concerning piano design and related topics, the results of which were collected into the book published under the title of Piano Tone Building (re-released with some commentary by Del Fandrich a few years back) was sponsored by the American Steel and Wire Company. (BTW, the original of that book has been scanned and posted to archive.org) Very interesting that that company would be the one with the finances and the interest in underwriting the presentations and publication (obviously with the help of a large number of piano manufacturers and others, but AMSCO was the lead).

    In many ways, music wire was the tail that wagged the piano dog. Stronger wire - heftier frame - heftier soundboard - heavier hammers - denser hammers - lower action ratio - round and round it goes. Does anyone stop to wonder? Well, yes, some companies do (chiefly the "arch-conservative" Germanic and French manufacturers, like Bluthner, Bosey, Pleyel), but they are left in the dust by the more energetic and ambitious American manufacturers.

    I would take a little issue with Jason's implied characterization of inharmonicity as bad per se. With the extended range of the piano, the inharmonicity of modern wire makes the "natural stretch" far closer to the "psychological stretch" asked for by human ears. And there is a degree of complexity to the sound that can be pleasing. This is not an absolute: there are ranges, and excessive inharmonicity (where to draw the line?) is certainly not "pleasing," but on the whole I have come to think of inharmonicity per se as a net positive.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 5.  RE:music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-06-2013 06:18
    Jason wrote:  "the high tension steel wires seem to be more susceptible to inharmonicity "

    Da....all pianos, regardless of make or model have inharmonicity. Its all matter of degree of inharmonicity.
    -------------------------------------------
    Tom Servinsky

    -------------------------------------------








  • 6.  RE:music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-05-2013 10:01
    Just FWIW, the "evidence" of creep in new wire is not all that evident to me.  Rather, the methods of stabilizing wire when it is put on vary considerably such that it's not at all clear whether the new wire continues to creep longer or whether one's technique of wire stabilization is simply not up to the task.  For example, I tune a fair number of new Yamaha pianos, both uprights and grands.  I find those pianos to be extremely stable after the first tuning even when the second tuning isn't done for a year or more (environment notwithstanding).  The Yamaha method, though I don't know precisely what they do, clearly involves a wire stabilization process that includes getting the pitch significantly above the target pitch for some period of time.  When I come to these pianos on a first tuning they are almost always sharp.  But after bringing them to pitch, they usually stay there.  Subsequent changes to pitch are not what has been referenced here, a significant drift to the flat side.  I would be interested to know their entire process, but whatever it is, it seems to work.

    The engineering and science based texts that Ron Nossaman cited seem fairly clear about the reaction of wire and I remain unconvinced that creep, as defined by the continuous elongation of the wire, is a real phenomenon in our trade but rather one that is being used to explain other phenomena that account for pitch drift to the flat side over time on unplayed and unserviced pianos or on newly installed wire.  

    If someone can offer real evidence to the contrary, that continued elongation actually takes place, I'm, well, all ears.

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 7.  RE:music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Posted 12-05-2013 10:12
    The question is, how much the wire was stretched and stabilized before you tuned the piano?  Also curious to know how sharp they tune the wire, and if this pulls the wire into the plastic range?  After a while, over-stretched wire will eventually stabilize.  

    -------------------------------------------
    Jason Leininger
    pittsburgh pa
    412-874-6992
    -------------------------------------------








  • 8.  RE:music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-05-2013 13:33
    David,
    It is dangerous to draw conclusions about music wire behavior from our experience with new pianos, unless we know intimately how they were manufactured. Most factories I have visited or heard details about will "season" their strung backs for a few months after initial stringing and chipping, with additional chipping at stated intervals. Yamaha has its "pounding" regimen as well, which must have an effect on the strings as well as the action. I have never heard of a manufacturer where making positive bends at the bridges, etc. was part of their procedure, so "letting that happen naturally" is probably part of the mix. And tuning a fair bit sharp (varying by mfgr) seems to be pretty universal.

    In my own experience, either stringing or replacing broken strings, doing the positive bends PLUS considerable sharp tuning for as long as feasible have been the most effective tools at my disposal for accelerating stability. Without the sharp tuning, the strings go flat more and longer. If that is or is not evidence of creep and stretch, well, I don't really care to argue the point. It seems to be evidence to me, seems not to you I guess.

    Jim Arledge recommended (about ten years ago, don't know if he still does) raising the pitch of a new set of bass strings 100 cents sharp and leaving it there overnight, then returning the next day to put it at pitch, in situations where it was essential that the strings hold as fast as possible. He did a demo in Nashville (2004? convention), at a bar near the convention hotel. What does that do to the insides of the wire? I don't know, but it does speed up the tuning stability. Does it "stretch" the wire, accelerate "creep?" Seems like a logical explanation, but maybe something else is happening.

    In any case, what is most important for all of us is to know what techniques are most effective - and aren't damaging, which is another aspect of this. How sharp can you pull a string without damage? I tend to hold shy of 100¢ myself, 50 - 75 is as far as I like to go, but I do press on the string, so I raise the tension more than that. I haven't noticed negative effects, and I follow my instruments for months and years.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 9.  RE:music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-05-2013 13:55
    I have heard (from someone who has been there and knows, first hand) that the Fazioli factory spends eight hours straightening, seating, and leveling the strings on their pianos before they go out. Wouldn't be surprised if a similar story unfolds at places like Steingraeber and Bosendorfer.

    -------------------------------------------
    Alan Eder
    Valencia CA
    661-904-6483
    -------------------------------------------








  • 10.  RE:music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-05-2013 20:33
    Yes it is.  But aren't you drawing conclusions about the behavior of piano wire from string replacements?  What's the difference?

    I believe the Arledge recommendation, btw, was 30 cents sharp, not 100 cents. 

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 11.  RE:music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-05-2013 20:42
    When I replace a string, I see everything I do and know what has been done. On a new piano, I have no idea what specifically has been done to that piano. So I have a good chance of teasing out what the variables are when it is based on my own string replacements.

    With respect to Arledge and 100¢, I grant that my memory could be wrong, but I am absolutely certain it was more than 30¢. What sticks in my memory is 100¢. I certainly remember thinking it was extreme at the time. OTOH, it worked quite well. Were you at Nashville in 2004? This was not published, and I'm not sure he would have wanted it published as his "official" recommendation. It was more of a hint for if you are really under the gun.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 12.  RE:music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-05-2013 22:22
    Greetings,
    It is hard to pinpoint where creep comes from in a piano wire in the
    piano. Between the under string felt and the hitch pin, all those bends
    take some time to finish tearing the metal around their outside
    circumferences, and the straight portions of the wire may or may not
    stretch.

    However, there is usually about 100 cents worth of slack in the
    coil that will take a long time to creep out if not relieved after the
    second chipping and coil leveling. Theoretically, the increasing
    resistance from friction keeps the becket from ever seeing speaking
    length tension, and the movement of tension from the speaking length to
    the becket could be one of those never-ending processes. I would assume
    that for practical purposes, a point of stasis would be reached.
    However, it isn't uncommon for a 10 year old string to drop 5 or more
    cents when a pair of vise-grips grabs the coil and twists it in the
    direction of the winding. I have even done this, taking care not to
    squeeze the becket, and seen it drop, so I discount the introduction of
    slack at the top by pressing a becket tighter.
    The reservoirs of slack in the string's various segments make it
    hard to say that the wire under speaking tension is continuing to
    stretch, or whether the coil and bends are taking a long time to bleed
    the slack out of themselves.
    I have hung a heavy object on music wire and it has stayed in the
    same place for years and years.
    Regards,


    Ed Foote RPT
    http://www.piano-tuners.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html




  • 13.  RE:music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-06-2013 12:02
    Ed Foote: "However, there is usually about 100 cents worth of slack in the coil that will take a long time to creep out if not relieved after the second chipping and coil leveling."

    I have heard this from others as well, but whenever I tried it, the pitch moved ZERO (not even 0.5¢). I tried it just now, on many coils of a few different pianos, some older, some younger, some recently replaced strings, and not a single pitch changed. Of course, maybe certain specific stringing techniques might well leave such slack, and I wouldn't discount the possibility. But coil slack does not seem to be a factor in my work, apparently, so I don't think it is creating "apparent string stretch" in my own experience.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 14.  RE: music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Posted 12-05-2013 10:42
    On 12/5/2013 9:01 AM, David Love via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:

    > The engineering and science based texts that Ron Nossaman cited seem
    > fairly clear about the reaction of wire and I remain unconvinced that
    > creep, as defined by the continuous elongation of the wire, is a real
    > phenomenon in our trade but rather one that is being used to explain
    > other phenomena that account for pitch drift to the flat side over
    > time on unplayed and unserviced pianos or on newly installed wire.

    From what I've seen, as you noted with new Yamahas, short term pitch
    drop in new wire looks to me to be a different phenomenon from long term
    pitch drop in unserviced pianos. Combining lack of wire stabilization on
    installation with long term elongation under the blanket term of creep
    serves no constructive or instructive purpose. The question, yet again,
    and as you continue to say, regards the long term elongation of modern
    wire in pianos.


    > If someone can offer real evidence to the contrary, that continued
    > elongation actually takes place, I'm, well, all ears.

    Likewise, with modern wire (last 120 years or so), at the tensions and
    temperatures found in real pianos in real situations.
    Ron N




  • 15.  RE: music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Posted 12-05-2013 11:02
    On 12/5/2013 9:12 AM, Jason Leininger via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:

    > The question is, how much the wire was stretched and stabilized
    > before you tuned the piano?

    No, the question is long term wire elongation in unserviced pianos over
    time, claimed as accounting for the need of those semitone pitch raises
    in 80 year old pianos that haven't been tuned in 40 years. That's the
    question, and it isn't changing to fit the argument.


    > Also curious to know how sharp they tune
    > the wire, and if this pulls the wire into the plastic range?

    Why does it matter? Pulling any wire up to pitch in a piano immediately
    and permanently deforms it, at the bends, naturally, and in it's length.
    That's been demonstrated. Ask a bass string maker.


    > After a
    > while, over-stretched wire will eventually stabilize.

    Oh? Then there's no long term stretch in modern music wire? What's your
    source?
    Ron N




  • 16.  RE:music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Posted 12-05-2013 15:11

    1.  Ron, I was thinking about new wire per se, not just pre-stretched settled new wire or flat old wire.  In fact, I was thinking about new wire only, from the beginning of the discussion.  I apologize for misunderstanding the initial argument.  
    2.There is elastic and plastic deformation.  From what I understand they are two different things.  It matters because there is some evidence that the two different types of deformation have separate effects on the harmonic structure of the tone that has been produced.
    3. Fred, you made some good points about inharmonicity of modern wire.  I understand that the complex sound of modern wire can be pleasing, but that still makes it different from the round, sweet tone that is more characteristic of "old" lower carbon or wrought iron wire.  The piano world has become quite homogenized and I think that it is time that we encourage more variety into the materials end of piano building. Mass production and homogeny is not necessarily aesthetically beneficial when it comes to the arts.     

    -------------------------------------------
    Jason Leininger
    pittsburgh pa
    412-874-6992
    -------------------------------------------








  • 17.  RE:music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-06-2013 09:50
    The difference between elastic and plastic deformation is that in the first case the material returns to its original unaltered form and in the second it doesn't.  Wire stretches when you add tension but when you release the tension it returns to its original form (elastic), when you stress it above its yield point into the area of plastic deformation it doesn't.  Clearly you don't want to push the string into the realm of plastic deformation as you start risking breakage and will alter the uniform characteristic of the wire (it doesn't necessarily deform uniformly along it's length).  That probably disturbs unity of the standing wave formation on the string.  Whether audible or not probably depends on the degree of plastic deformation. 

    I'm not sure what you mean by or are suggesting about the cause of the "round, sweet tone of old low carbon wire" and inharmonicity.  Harpsichord wire, for example, is lower carbon (with lower tensile strength) but the relatively low tension at which they must be installed also raises the inharmonicity.  Generally speaking, a wire of higher tensile strength that allows for higher tensions will yield a lower inharmonicity and the movement in current piano building is for higher tension scales with lower inharmonicity (also more power and stronger upper partial development).  Steinway pianos, for example, are generally lower tension, higher inharmonicity pianos (D excepted).   Complex tone (though I'm not sure what 'you' mean by that exactly) is usually associated with lower inharmonicity producing a more complex and "colorful" sound, less pure, as it were.  Attributing "roundness" and "sweetness" to the wire itself seems like a misdirected emphasis.

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 18.  RE:music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Posted 12-06-2013 10:08
    Good points David. Thanks for the clarification on some of the inharmonicity issues. Unfortunately, low carbon harpsichord wire available today is essentially nothing like historic wire. Again please read Stephen Birkett's work. He will likely send you a copy of his latest research that addresses the the differences between actual historic wire and reproduction wire available today. From my experience, the tone from modern wire is drastically different even from late nineteenth century wire. They have a different composition and are made using different processes, that all effect the final product.......acoustically. ------------------------------------------- Jason Leininger pittsburgh pa 412-874-6992 -------------------------------------------


  • 19.  RE:music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Posted 12-06-2013 10:17
    David,

    In speaking of inharmonicity one needs to differentiate between the wrapped strings and the plain wire. In my own version of this, lowering the wrapped tensions by reducing cores and wraps, while maintaining reasonable BP% by using different tensile strength wires, results in lowered inharmonicity. The goal, a less complex bottom end sound...not pure, but less complex.

    My take on this is that the wrapped strings in any belly, especially a responsive belly, to a great extent define the tonal signature of the entire compass, not just the bass. In a well functioning belly, the tonal profile of the un-struck, sympathetically sounding wrapped strings, is reflected tio a huge degree in struck treble tone...at least, this is my experience. 

    Whether the actual carbon content of the wire will effect the tonal signature is an interesting question, and one that has not been demonstrated on either side of this discussion. I look forward to hearing practical application of Birkett's work, as until we hear it, we have no clue either way. I think as a hypothesis, the concept that a different material would have a different tonal profile is an entirely reasonable conjecture, and one worth proving either way.

    Jim Ialeggio     

    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------



  • 20.  RE:music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Posted 12-06-2013 10:27
    I have heard two different possible explanations for the lower inharmonicity of low carbon iron wire. The first is that the wire itself is far more elastic than modern steel. It is not as stiff and therefore the inharmonicity is reduced. I have also heard that the absence of carbon increases internal dampening on a molecular level, and this may contribute to reduced inharmonicity. Hopefully Stephen Birkett will address some of the issues in his research. ------------------------------------------- Jason Leininger pittsburgh pa 412-874-6992 -------------------------------------------


  • 21.  RE:music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Posted 12-06-2013 10:40
    I should add to my last post, that though I was discussing/clarifying the inharmonicity issue David mentioned, my own design parameters really don't fuss about the inharmonicity much. My approach is much more simple minded...ie, lower bass tensions mean less stored energy to be tamed.

    My trebles remain modern wires and 150-60 lb tensions, as the treble portion of the modern piano, I think, with a responsive belly, is quite nice. Given appropriate hammer shaping, strike weight weight reductions, strike point ratios, on a well designed note 50-88 belly, the treble tonal profile rings my bell just fine.

    Jim Ialeggio    

    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------









  • 22.  RE:music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-06-2013 11:13


    -------------------------------------------
    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
    -------------------------------------------
    So Jim,  are you using only the M type wire throughout the plain wire scaling, generally?

    Will






  • 23.  RE:music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Posted 12-06-2013 11:34
    >So Jim,  are you using only the M type wire throughout the plain wire scaling, generally?

    >Will

    At this point I'm still using up my Mapes gold in the treble.  Last small belly I experimented with a tension curve which graduated from bass to treble and didn't hit the steady 150lb mark until note 50 (at which point I switched to Mapes). O and M throughout the entire bottom end of the scale.

    As I alluded to in my last post, the treble, or rather the 4th-6th octave treble is responding so well to the soundboard impedance model (stiff), that I'm not so focused on wire up there. In the high treble, I don't see the impedance model doing much for me, and past a certain stiffness, I'm finding ideas I got from Ed Mcmorrow producing the most fun trebles I've experienced...really makes that part of the compass someplace to spend time and enjoy...So I'm not too focused on wire up there either.

    Its the lower end I'm finding the Paulello helpful, at least right now.

    Jim Ialeggio

    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------





    -



  • 24.  RE:music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-06-2013 12:18


    -------------------------------------------
    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
    -------------------------------------------
    As someone who is devoting himself to wire scaling of smaller grands to suit a "chamber" preference for tonality and utility, you may find Stephen Paulello's treble rescalings of Steinways on his website interesting.  Take particular note of his M rescaling, amongst others.   Look how far up he takes the use of O type. 

    http://www.stephenpaulello.com/en/fiches-de-montage

    Will





  • 25.  RE:music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-06-2013 18:06
    Jim:

    I was referring to the plain wire section re inharmonicity. 

    Let's remember also that Mapes Gold has a tin coating whereas Roslau doesn't (it's just polished).  OMG more variables.

    Presumably the low end of the B sounds better with the different wire because it ends up at a higher BP%.  When I was in Phoenix last year I was somewhat alarmed to hear Ed McMorrow commenting that this lower tensile strength wire that he had used on his B would require that the treble section gets restrung about every 10 years, or something like that.  That pretty much eliminated any chance of my using it.

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 26.  RE:music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-06-2013 20:06


    -------------------------------------------
    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
    -------------------------------------------
    Without question, the lowest tenor is at a higher BP using the 1 type Paulello wire. (This will also result in a better blend at the crossover to the bass).   From there, O type wire is used up to note 39, also raising the BP, but to a lesser degree.  Indeed, full hybrid scaling is done aiming at a close blend of BP througout the scale, using the type wire that will best give that result.  And the places where it does the most good are where we find the usual suspects.  But the result is a piano that is also exceptionally well blended as it progresses through the scale.  We have a much larger number of string sizes and types to choose from in order to finesse a scale.

    Arno is much more knowledgable and can better explain the utility of this wire.  Here is a link for some further reading:

    http://www.arnopianos.com/#!piano-wire--rescaling/cfm1

    A couple of months ago I had an opportunity to speak with Ed McMorrow (about other things), and I asked him about your question. He informed me that his comments were directed towards the Pure Sound wire and not to the Paulello wire.  So it would be a misattribution to imply that the Paulello wire will have a short enough shelf life that we should not consider using it.  I don't think that is your intent, but what you have said  here could be misconstrued by others as such, and leave a false impression about this wire.

    When you shared this statement some months ago in this forum, it gave me pause (as a user of this wire).  So I contacted Arno and asked the question.  Being the importer and having used this wire in his own busy rebuilding business for the past 8 years, he had no experience to that negative effect, nor had he any feedback of this kind from his customers.  He also shared the comment with Stephen Paulello, who started making the wire in the mid 90's.  His experience was the same. 

    BTW, Paulello sells a nickel plated wire also, and it is WAY expensive

    Will Truitt







  • 27.  RE:music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-07-2013 10:29
    I stand corrected on that then.

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 28.  RE:music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-06-2013 11:11


    -------------------------------------------
    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
    -------------------------------------------
    Hi Jim:

    As one of the few other posters on this forum using Paulello core wires for all strings, bass and treble, I find your comments in the first paragraph most interesting.  My experience with this wire thus far is from a sample of one, a Steinway B.  So I will understand anyone taking what I say with a large grain of salt.  In about 2 weeks I will start stringing a 7' 3" Bechstein C using 4 kinds of wire - 0, 1, M, and XM.  The original scale is a trainwreck, so the results should be quite interesting. 

    I had Arno Patin rescale this B for me, as I had no prior experience with the wire. He sent me 4 different scales.  One of his concerns was the loudness inbalance between the bass (dominant) and the treble.  The scale we ended up choosing used reduced cores and wraps and 0 core wire in the monochords, with M for the bichords - to reduce that imbalance.  The breaking percentages were very consistent in the 40's and 50's. 

    I am not quite sure what you mean by a less complex bottom end sound, but what I heard was this:  wonderful clarity along with a harmonic richness (not sure what that has to do with complexity) and  a wonderful boatload of color.  This resonant sound extended all the way up through the bichords to my surprise. 

    Your remarks about the struck treble tone in cahoots with the unstruck sympathetic bass may have some merit. 

    To my ear, the individual notes did not sound so very different than other good modern wire in the plain wire.  Just damn clean and clear wire, but would it pass a blindfold test?  Yet when playing chords in normal playing, the sound really had an integrity, clarity, and color that made the piano absolutely gorgeous.  And that is certainly very true when the bass is coloring the tone.  Collectively, the differences did not seem small, and the Paulello wire seems to bring something significant to the table.

    If I understand Arno correctly, there is a negligible difference in inharmonicity between the various wires with their respective breaking percentages.  And those breaking percentages are manipulated by the differences in composition of the wires.  Yet, if you substitute the 1 wire type for M wire type at the low end of the break on the B, the improvement that this wire with a lower BP gives is quite audibly an improvement. 

    To what do we attribute that result?  I don't know, and all I have is the anecdotal experience of my own ear that it does have a different tonal profile. 

    Will Truitt






  • 29.  RE:music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-07-2013 10:56
    Just so we're clear, lowering the core wire diameter only (outer dimension remains the same) will not change the tension but will raise the BP% and lower the inharmonicity.  Lowering the wrap diameter by itself will lower the tension, lower the BP% and raise the inharmonicity.  The overall change in tension, BP% and inharmonicity will depend on the proportional changes in each.  However, I was referring to plain wire sections with those comments.

    I don't know if I would agree that the bass determines the tonal signature of the piano, especially by means of sympathetic vibration. 

    The character of the piano, in terms of scaling, is largely determined by the midrange, in my opinion.  Of course, the soundboard characteristics in conjunction with the scaling are important and the hammer characteristics, along with soundboard impedance, will determine the qualities of the attack/sustain relationship along with the timbral dynamics (partial balance).  Since the specific attributes of the hammer along with voicing changes both the attack/sustain relationship as well as the timbral dynamics, the starting point of the hammer (weight, density, tension, profile) will collectively push the piano in a particular tonal direction. 

    This is a bigger discussion, obviously, but will be basically the first half of my double period class at WestPacIV (Structural Voicing).  The second half will be voicing procedures and how they vary depending on specific hammer attributes--a reorganization of what I tried to do in two separate classes at WestPacIII. 

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 30.  RE:music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Posted 12-07-2013 20:56
    My comments on the wrapped strings defining overall tonal color of the entire compass comes from experimentation and observation of my own work on small bellies. It could be that on a small belly with its vastly limited real estate, relative to a large instrument, it is easier for the board/strings to start moving, on their own, in response to board movement in other parts of the scale.

    I remember actually, the first time I listened to one of my bellies, senza dampers. A fair amount of the sound seemed to be coming from parts of the instrument well removed from from the strike zone. I filed this observation away, and thought about it.  Later, in other messing about, I was somewhat blown away at how the overall sound of the instrument was altered when the wrapped strings were seriously and effectively shut down from putting out any sound.

    One experiment was inspired by my first 5' belly, which had/has an annoying high bass with a very heavy mid-partial mix, nasal, highly audible 10th partial quality(low tenor quite nice though).  I was trying to figure out whether the nasality came from hammer impact, and thus could be voiced out, or whether the nasality came from the strings themselves, and could not be voiced out. The overall sound of the full compass mix was clearly high partial heavy. This gave the instrument a very agreeable crystalline treble...not Yamaha in-your-face bright-unto painful, but clear, very focused and shimmering...with an emphasis on focus. I would describe this focus as,  I think, the bandwidth of available partials being thinner than less focused treble sounds. 

    In messing about, on a hunch, I shut down the all the wrapped strings, not shutting off board movement there, but shut down the strings along large amounts of their speaking length. In playing the tenor and treble in this condition, I was quite disappointed at how much of the agreeable crystalinne quality was lost with the shutting down of the wraps. This piano, now, with its still challenged high bass, despite its challenges in the nasal high bass, remains, for me, a very enjoyable piano to improvise on.  I avoid the nasal parts and really take advantage of the other focused crystalline parts.

    In subsequent small bellies, where the high bass, low bass and tenor are all putting out much more agreeable lower partial appropriate sounds, while the trebles have excellent sustain, they do not exhibit the compass wide focused amount of high partial sounds which my first belly exhibits in both a pleasant fashion in the tenor/treble and unpleasant fashion in the high bass.

    I suppose one could voice up the treble of the more balanced subsequent small pianos. But the tonal palette created by voicing up, creates a different partial mix and envelope as compared to the high partials coming from sympathetic movement, at least when, as in that first small belly, the wrapped strings were putting out coupling frequencies the tenor/treble could effectively use. This sympathetic effect, I think, is much like a the quality of a Hardanger fiddle. The sympathetic un-damped strings creates a sound that is qualitatively different from the sounds coming from a vanilla fiddle with its mostly bowed sounds.

    The piano is not primarily a sympathetically sounding instrument like the hardanger fiddle, of course. However, I think the sympathetic component of the sound is a significant part of each instrument's tonal signature. One of the things I find quite frustrating in old, tired bellies, or even new dead bellies, is that they completely lack the sympathetic component of the sound.

    Jim Ialeggio
     

    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------








  • 31.  RE:music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Posted 12-07-2013 21:24

    Hi Jim,
    Interesting observations.  Thanks.
    -------------------------------------------
    Jason Leininger
    pittsburgh pa
    412-874-6992
    -------------------------------------------








  • 32.  RE:music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-08-2013 20:14
    We might disagree on this one.  I think that functioning soundboards that are loaded and carrying a lot of potential energy react to the general input of energy anywhere.  So if you hold the dampers up and play some notes somewhere (anywhere really) the reactivity of the board starts things moving generally.  Boards that have less potential energy (such as older boards that have lost crown, load, etc) don't react the same way.  So I agree that dead bellies don't react sympathetically as much, but I don't think it's because of the scale design, rather I think it is a matter of soundboard function.  Stiffer boards, of course, will have more high frequency capability.

    BTW, the nasal quality in the uppper bass I find to be an issue of too much stiffness and therefore weak fundamental development.  More of a problem in small pianos but can also happen if the rib scale is too stiff or the panel is not thinned.  Even small pianos with floats that have very nice low bass development can have a nasally upper bass because the float doesn't really impact that area.

    Yes, we've digressed from the subject line but who's counting. 

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 33.  RE:music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Posted 12-08-2013 20:57
    >So I agree that dead bellies don't react sympathetically as much, but I don't think it's because of the scale design, rather I think it is a matter of soundboard function.

    I completely agree...didn't mean to imply the sympathetic sound was about scale design. I meant to point out that the sympathetic nature of the belly creates part of the tonal signature of any well functioning instrument. It's a part of the tonal picture that is never discussed, at least not that I have heard discussed. My comments were to point out that in the very lively small bellies I have worked on, the bass, in particular, seems to have quite a lot to say about the way that tonal picture works.  

    The sympathetic nature, as you said, and I agree, its about what the board and its potential energy have to give.  The nasal quality is a board problem, and mostly not a scale/string problem.  In a small belly the challenge there is two fold, rim restriction and internal stiffness.  As the bass bridge is hugging the rim, the bridge is running close to crossgrain to the board's grain, creating a really unhelpful massive extra rib.

    In any case, as we digress, momentarily, or maybe permanently from the thread title, these forums function as group stream of consciousness, so I am entirely unrepentant.

    Crank down the self-directing course of discussion, and the discussions always die. On the old Pianotech list, in its long past most useful(to me) days, the info which I really benefited from was often well removed from the thread title. The design of this site misses this defining but untidy point entirely, and the reformed Google Pianotech list has trod it well into the dust as well...but I really digress <G>...back to uhhh...strings was it?...no wait, I think it was about wire...

    Jim Ialeggio

     

    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------










  • 34.  RE:music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-06-2013 11:36
    David Love: "Harpsichord wire, for example, is lower carbon (with lower tensile strength) but the relatively low tension at which they must be installed also raises the inharmonicity."

    Actually this is a misunderstanding. It essentially depends on the breaking % of the wire, more than anything else. Typically, you might have an instrument that is a good historical copy, strung with modern wire, and that wire will be at a low break%. Hence there will be quite a bit more inharmonicity (low compared to piano, but high for a harpsichord). Change to historical copy (more or less) wire, and the break% goes up, the inharmonicity goes down. That is certainly true of many of the earlier mid 20th century harpsichords, which were made before efforts at historical wire had taken root, and then later restrung with the older style wire. (Note that the scaling, as in string lengths, was made for the older wire).

    And, of course, it is similar with pianos, where if all you do is replace low tenor wire on, say, a Steinway B, with a lower strength wire like Pure Sound or one of Paulello's, the inharmonicity will go down for those notes, making it easier to tune for one thing, and more stable with RH changes for another. This is because you are at a higher break%.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 35.  RE:music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Posted 12-06-2013 16:35
    Carbon content of the wire and internal damping capabilities also effect inherent inharmonicity, and or tonal profile of the material itself.  

    -------------------------------------------
    Jason Leininger
    pittsburgh pa
    412-874-6992
    -------------------------------------------








  • 36.  RE: music wire properties - "stretch" (creep) in particular

    Posted 12-08-2013 14:52
    Here we are with a brand new subject, and still talking about something
    different than the subject indicates.

    As to the bass defining the tone of the piano, I disagree. It's the capo
    section in a lot of pianos, if any one thing (though it isn't any one
    thing at all). Steinway says to cripple the rest of the voicing down to
    match what the killer octave produces, and in a piano with an efficient
    soundboard, I wouldn't have believed until I did it, that the capo
    sections could be that hot and clear and need voiced down to the rest of
    the tenor. So with efficient soundboards, I think it's more the tenor.
    I'm not so sure that big pianos are bass heavy either, so much as they
    are so often tenor and treble lite.

    A fairly meaningless point in any case, as most folks will never install
    and set up a high efficiency soundboard, so will never experience this
    first hand.
    Ron N