Pianotech

I play the S&S with no pedals depressed. OK. I play it again with SOS Pedal depressed. 'Iffy'. There's not full key-depth. I depress the Sos. Ped. and play any key and, while keeping that key depressed, I release the Sos. Ped. the key jumps under my finger and then goes down to the bottom of its keystroke. What is happening here? Rather like the 'fridge light' syndrome - take out the action and you can't activate the Sos. Ped. - only simulate the act by revolving the Sos. Rail in the action. Question: Is this a 'trial and error' thingy? or (and I'm sure there must be) are there specific measurement that must be adhered to in setting up the Sos. Rail on the bench? Anyone?  BTW it's a Hamburg Model 'A' built 1914.   Michael (UK) . 
-------------------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
-------------------------------------------

What is causing the resistance is the stiff sostenuto tab on the top flange. When you engage the pedal and play a note, the tab hits the underside of the rail, restricting its path. When you play notes and hold them with the sos pedal and then play and hold other notes, then release the pedal, the rail sweeps against the second played note grouping and you feel the thud at the front of the key. The solution is to install modern underlevers with the spring-loaded tabs. Since the new tabs are not rigidly fixed in place, they do not restrict the underlever's excursion or interfere with the rail when the pedal is released.

-------------------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Jon is correct that it is the fixed sostenuto tabs that are causing the symptoms. When regulating pianos that have fixed tabs, it is a good idea to adjust the sostenuto pedal and trapwork (whatever is necessary) so that the sost pedal will raise the dampers a little higher than the damper pedal or the key does. No lost motion, and adjust whatever the stop is to allow that much more motion. Then the sostenuto blade will be higher with the pedal down, and the tabs under it can rise higher before they contact it.

I think it is actually a good idea to adjust the sostenuto pedal in this direction when the tabs are spring loaded as well - you avoid a touch issue when playing without the damper pedal. I hope this is clearly enough written to understand. If not, say so and I'll try to put it better.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
"When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-29-2014 12:44
From: Jon Page
Subject: Steinway Grand Sostenuto Pedal regulation

What is causing the resistance is the stiff sostenuto tab on the top flange. When you engage the pedal and play a note, the tab hits the underside of the rail, restricting its path. When you play notes and hold them with the sos pedal and then play and hold other notes, then release the pedal, the rail sweeps against the second played note grouping and you feel the thud at the front of the key. The solution is to install modern underlevers with the spring-loaded tabs. Since the new tabs are not rigidly fixed in place, they do not restrict the underlever's excursion or interfere with the rail when the pedal is released.

-------------------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

I did not know that Hamburg installed sostenutos in their pianos 100 years ago.  Was this an exception?  Where are those Steinway historians when you really need them?
-------------------------------------------
Jurgen Goering

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Hello Jurgen - this is my own S&S which was one of the last out of Deutchesland before the Great War. I restrung it around 2002. It's always had this peculiarity in the Sos Ped so I thought I'd air it and get a consensus. The only S&S Historian I know is David Kirkland who holds the fort @ S&S. But I didn't think. there was an historical issue here which, I suppose, is typical when you own something. Yes, it does have fixed tabs so I'll see what Fred's answer produces.
Michael (UK)

-------------------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-30-2014 11:54
From: Jurgen Goering
Subject: Steinway Grand Sostenuto Pedal regulation


I did not know that Hamburg installed sostenutos in their pianos 100 years ago.  Was this an exception?  Where are those Steinway historians when you really need them?
-------------------------------------------
Jurgen Goering

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I also thought that all the hamburgers had belly-mounted sostenuto.

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Zeno Wood
Brooklyn, NY
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Original Message:
Sent: 01-30-2014 13:00
From: Jurgen Goering
Subject: Steinway Grand Sostenuto Pedal regulation


I did not know that Hamburg installed sostenutos in their pianos 100 years ago.  Was this an exception?  Where are those Steinway historians when you really need them?
-------------------------------------------
Jurgen Goering

-------------------------------------------

I just turned up an email I had from David Kirkland in 2005 in which he comments on my S&S Model A Nr.164082.
Yours (he says) is a Model A-ll produced in Hamburg. This is the same scale as the Model A-ll produced in New York during the years of 1905 through 1914. There is no difference between the Hamburg A-ll short scale and the American A-ll short scale; they are the same scale. Hamburg continues to produce the same scale Model A to this present day.
Short scale vs long scale refers to notes 21 through 25 only (covered strings 32 through 42). The A-ll (he goes on) originally had a treble bridge that followed the curvature of the plate (long scale) The A-ll scale was modified in 1905 (short scale) so that on the lower treble notes (21 through 25) the treble bridge curves gradually away from the plate to result in shorter speaking lengths for notes 21 through 25 and therefore a better scale break between the highest bass note (20) and the lowest treble note (21).
The A-ll short scale was an improvement over the former A-ll long scale.
The A-lll, introduced 1913 in New York, was an improved scale over the A-ll. The A-lll piano is 6'4" in length and has a curved (rather than straight) bass bridge. The A-lll was discontinued in New York circa 1945, and apparently never produced in Hamburg.
All Model A's have 20 bass notes. (My comment: except those A's with a rounded tail which have 25 bass and sometimes only 85 notes.) 
The one difference I have found between the New York and Hamburg Steinway Grands is the 'Touch' screws in the Keys. The N.Y 'Touch screw' has a domed head with a hexagon shank and the Hamburg has a Capstan head. So I need a special long tool for the N.Y Steinway (as used in bicycles) and a long pointed thing for sticking in the Hamburg capstan. 
David doesn't touch on the Sos.Ped. Though I dare say he would if asked!
Has anyone deciphered the information, in 'basse-relief, on the tail end of the Plate? What it means? &c.
Michael (UK)

-------------------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-30-2014 13:05
From: Jurgen Goering
Subject: Steinway Grand Sostenuto Pedal regulation


I did not know that Hamburg installed sostenutos in their pianos 100 years ago.  Was this an exception?  Where are those Steinway historians when you really need them?
-------------------------------------------
Jurgen Goering

-------------------------------------------

Thanks, Fred, I'll 'play around' with it. I see what you're driving at so I'll just see if I can fathom how to get there.   Michael(UK)

-------------------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-30-2014 12:06
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Steinway Grand Sostenuto Pedal regulation

Jon is correct that it is the fixed sostenuto tabs that are causing the symptoms. When regulating pianos that have fixed tabs, it is a good idea to adjust the sostenuto pedal and trapwork (whatever is necessary) so that the sost pedal will raise the dampers a little higher than the damper pedal or the key does. No lost motion, and adjust whatever the stop is to allow that much more motion. Then the sostenuto blade will be higher with the pedal down, and the tabs under it can rise higher before they contact it.

I think it is actually a good idea to adjust the sostenuto pedal in this direction when the tabs are spring loaded as well - you avoid a touch issue when playing without the damper pedal. I hope this is clearly enough written to understand. If not, say so and I'll try to put it better.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
"When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-29-2014 12:44
From: Jon Page
Subject: Steinway Grand Sostenuto Pedal regulation

What is causing the resistance is the stiff sostenuto tab on the top flange. When you engage the pedal and play a note, the tab hits the underside of the rail, restricting its path. When you play notes and hold them with the sos pedal and then play and hold other notes, then release the pedal, the rail sweeps against the second played note grouping and you feel the thud at the front of the key. The solution is to install modern underlevers with the spring-loaded tabs. Since the new tabs are not rigidly fixed in place, they do not restrict the underlever's excursion or interfere with the rail when the pedal is released.

-------------------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Michael,

It is my understanding that for many years Hamburg did not build the sostenuto, but when it did, the mechanism was mounted on the belly.

A Hamburg Steinway with an action- mounted sostenuto is a new one for me. Maybe a special order?

Just an anecdote. I once restored an 1878 NY Steinway 7'2" Style 2, traditional stretcher type, which was serviced extensively at Hamburg in the 1890's (there is a note in the number book about being shipped to Hamburg). Included in this service was the removal of that darn sostenuto. The pedals were converted from three to two.....the mount screw holes remain on the belly, and the lyre markings also testify.... Maybe another kind of special order?

Bill Shull

www.periodpianos.org


Sent from my HTC Inspire™ 4G on AT&T

----- Reply message


Original Message------

Thanks, Fred, I'll 'play around' with it. I see what you're driving at so I'll just see if I can fathom how to get there.   Michael(UK)

-------------------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-30-2014 12:06
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Steinway Grand Sostenuto Pedal regulation

Jon is correct that it is the fixed sostenuto tabs that are causing the symptoms. When regulating pianos that have fixed tabs, it is a good idea to adjust the sostenuto pedal and trapwork (whatever is necessary) so that the sost pedal will raise the dampers a little higher than the damper pedal or the key does. No lost motion, and adjust whatever the stop is to allow that much more motion. Then the sostenuto blade will be higher with the pedal down, and the tabs under it can rise higher before they contact it.

I think it is actually a good idea to adjust the sostenuto pedal in this direction when the tabs are spring loaded as well - you avoid a touch issue when playing without the damper pedal. I hope this is clearly enough written to understand. If not, say so and I'll try to put it better.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
"When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-29-2014 12:44
From: Jon Page
Subject: Steinway Grand Sostenuto Pedal regulation

What is causing the resistance is the stiff sostenuto tab on the top flange. When you engage the pedal and play a note, the tab hits the underside of the rail, restricting its path. When you play notes and hold them with the sos pedal and then play and hold other notes, then release the pedal, the rail sweeps against the second played note grouping and you feel the thud at the front of the key. The solution is to install modern underlevers with the spring-loaded tabs. Since the new tabs are not rigidly fixed in place, they do not restrict the underlever's excursion or interfere with the rail when the pedal is released.

-------------------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Hello Fred, Before pulling the action I have made a few measurements relative to the distance the damper head travels when: (1) the Sus. Ped is depressed. (2) a Key is fully depressed and then the Sos.Ped is depressed. In (1) pressing any key in this state shows a very little further rise in the associated damper head. In (2) the Damper head raises about 1/16" further. Would this comply with your expectations? My 'model' use is in Chopin Nocturne No.6 Op.15 No.3 starting 32 bars from the end - those 8ves are good for Sos use I think.
Michael (UK)

-------------------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-31-2014 08:34
From: Michael Gamble
Subject: Steinway Grand Sostenuto Pedal regulation

Thanks, Fred, I'll 'play around' with it. I see what you're driving at so I'll just see if I can fathom how to get there.   Michael(UK)

-------------------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-30-2014 12:06
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Steinway Grand Sostenuto Pedal regulation

Jon is correct that it is the fixed sostenuto tabs that are causing the symptoms. When regulating pianos that have fixed tabs, it is a good idea to adjust the sostenuto pedal and trapwork (whatever is necessary) so that the sost pedal will raise the dampers a little higher than the damper pedal or the key does. No lost motion, and adjust whatever the stop is to allow that much more motion. Then the sostenuto blade will be higher with the pedal down, and the tabs under it can rise higher before they contact it.

I think it is actually a good idea to adjust the sostenuto pedal in this direction when the tabs are spring loaded as well - you avoid a touch issue when playing without the damper pedal. I hope this is clearly enough written to understand. If not, say so and I'll try to put it better.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
"When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-29-2014 12:44
From: Jon Page
Subject: Steinway Grand Sostenuto Pedal regulation

What is causing the resistance is the stiff sostenuto tab on the top flange. When you engage the pedal and play a note, the tab hits the underside of the rail, restricting its path. When you play notes and hold them with the sos pedal and then play and hold other notes, then release the pedal, the rail sweeps against the second played note grouping and you feel the thud at the front of the key. The solution is to install modern underlevers with the spring-loaded tabs. Since the new tabs are not rigidly fixed in place, they do not restrict the underlever's excursion or interfere with the rail when the pedal is released.

-------------------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Yes, I think you got the notion I was trying to convey (at first I was confused by your abbreviations sus and sos - wasn't sure if they were typos). Fixed tab sostenutos are troublesome, but if you have to live with them, that kind of setup, which gets the blade as high as it can be when engaged, will cause the least grief, less bumping of the tops of tabs against it from below.

Letting up on the sostenuto pedal is another question, and you just have to learn to do it in sync with the damper pedal (harder to confuse the term damper pedal than sustain pedal): both let up simultaneously. And there will be a more obnoxious feel with the key, in certain circumstances.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
"When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-31-2014 12:01
From: Michael Gamble
Subject: Steinway Grand Sostenuto Pedal regulation

Hello Fred, Before pulling the action I have made a few measurements relative to the distance the damper head travels when: (1) the Sus. Ped is depressed. (2) a Key is fully depressed and then the Sos.Ped is depressed. In (1) pressing any key in this state shows a very little further rise in the associated damper head. In (2) the Damper head raises about 1/16" further. Would this comply with your expectations? My 'model' use is in Chopin Nocturne No.6 Op.15 No.3 starting 32 bars from the end - those 8ves are good for Sos use I think.
Michael (UK)

-------------------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-31-2014 08:34
From: Michael Gamble
Subject: Steinway Grand Sostenuto Pedal regulation

Thanks, Fred, I'll 'play around' with it. I see what you're driving at so I'll just see if I can fathom how to get there.   Michael(UK)

-------------------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-30-2014 12:06
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Steinway Grand Sostenuto Pedal regulation

Jon is correct that it is the fixed sostenuto tabs that are causing the symptoms. When regulating pianos that have fixed tabs, it is a good idea to adjust the sostenuto pedal and trapwork (whatever is necessary) so that the sost pedal will raise the dampers a little higher than the damper pedal or the key does. No lost motion, and adjust whatever the stop is to allow that much more motion. Then the sostenuto blade will be higher with the pedal down, and the tabs under it can rise higher before they contact it.

I think it is actually a good idea to adjust the sostenuto pedal in this direction when the tabs are spring loaded as well - you avoid a touch issue when playing without the damper pedal. I hope this is clearly enough written to understand. If not, say so and I'll try to put it better.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
"When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-29-2014 12:44
From: Jon Page
Subject: Steinway Grand Sostenuto Pedal regulation

What is causing the resistance is the stiff sostenuto tab on the top flange. When you engage the pedal and play a note, the tab hits the underside of the rail, restricting its path. When you play notes and hold them with the sos pedal and then play and hold other notes, then release the pedal, the rail sweeps against the second played note grouping and you feel the thud at the front of the key. The solution is to install modern underlevers with the spring-loaded tabs. Since the new tabs are not rigidly fixed in place, they do not restrict the underlever's excursion or interfere with the rail when the pedal is released.

-------------------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Thanks, Jon - I'll pull the action and check for stiffness in that tab. Michael (UK)
-------------------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-30-2014 10:02
From: Jon Page
Subject: Steinway Grand Sostenuto Pedal regulation

What is causing the resistance is the stiff sostenuto tab on the top flange. When you engage the pedal and play a note, the tab hits the underside of the rail, restricting its path. When you play notes and hold them with the sos pedal and then play and hold other notes, then release the pedal, the rail sweeps against the second played note grouping and you feel the thud at the front of the key. The solution is to install modern underlevers with the spring-loaded tabs. Since the new tabs are not rigidly fixed in place, they do not restrict the underlever's excursion or interfere with the rail when the pedal is released.

-------------------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

On 1/29/2014 4:06 AM, Michael Gamble via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> I play the S&S with no pedals depressed. OK. I play it again with SOS
> Pedal depressed. 'Iffy'. There's not full key-depth.

This, as Jon said, is the old stiff tabs, and will be fixed by replacing
the back action with modern spring loaded tabs.


> I depress the
> Sos. Ped. and play any key and, while keeping that key depressed, I
> release the Sos. Ped. the key jumps under my finger and then goes
> down to the bottom of its keystroke.

All sostenutos will do this. Replacing the back action won't "fix" it.
Ron N


Original Message------


I play the S&S with no pedals depressed. OK. I play it again with SOS Pedal depressed. 'Iffy'. There's not full key-depth. I depress the Sos. Ped. and play any key and, while keeping that key depressed, I release the Sos. Ped. the key jumps under my finger and then goes down to the bottom of its keystroke. What is happening here? Rather like the 'fridge light' syndrome - take out the action and you can't activate the Sos. Ped. - only simulate the act by revolving the Sos. Rail in the action. Question: Is this a 'trial and error' thingy? or (and I'm sure there must be) are there specific measurement that must be adhered to in setting up the Sos. Rail on the bench? Anyone?  BTW it's a Hamburg Model 'A' built 1914.   Michael (UK) . 
-------------------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
-------------------------------------------

Hello Ron, nnn  Thanks for your input on this Sos-Ped thingy. I'm happy to hear your comment that what I'm experiencing is 'the norm'. I wonder why S&S produced this atall. There are indeed certain pieces which can use it to great effect - one by Chopin springs to mind - but why they let it hit the fan with this touch problem I cannot imagine. Even this little (old) A makes a wonderful sound in the bass. Full and rich. And, looking at the strings for all the covered section I note they are ALL SINGLE COVERED. I know these are replacement strings made by Heller ('cos I got him to make them) but the originals I took off were also single covered. Interestingly also, the hammers are original with very little wear - so what felt was used.... Wurzen?  The damper felts are new and (at great expense) I bought them from S&S. The carriages (or Whippens you call them) are 'Spring Assisted' and make for a Very Light Touch Indeed.
Michael (UK)

-------------------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-30-2014 14:06
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Steinway Grand Sostenuto Pedal regulation

On 1/29/2014 4:06 AM, Michael Gamble via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> I play the S&S with no pedals depressed. OK. I play it again with SOS
> Pedal depressed. 'Iffy'. There's not full key-depth.

This, as Jon said, is the old stiff tabs, and will be fixed by replacing
the back action with modern spring loaded tabs.


> I depress the
> Sos. Ped. and play any key and, while keeping that key depressed, I
> release the Sos. Ped. the key jumps under my finger and then goes
> down to the bottom of its keystroke.

All sostenutos will do this. Replacing the back action won't "fix" it.
Ron N

On 1/30/2014 1:18 PM, Michael Gamble via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> Hello Ron, nnn Thanks for your input on this Sos-Ped thingy. I'm
> happy to hear your comment that what I'm experiencing is 'the norm'.

The touch resistance is the tab. The snap when you release the sostenuto
with a key down is how they work. They were never meant to be used that way.


> And, looking at the strings for all the covered
> section I note they are ALL SINGLE COVERED.

As far as I know New York has always single wrapped. I haven't seen
enough Hamburgs to say.

Ron N


Original Message------


I play the S&S with no pedals depressed. OK. I play it again with SOS Pedal depressed. 'Iffy'. There's not full key-depth. I depress the Sos. Ped. and play any key and, while keeping that key depressed, I release the Sos. Ped. the key jumps under my finger and then goes down to the bottom of its keystroke. What is happening here? Rather like the 'fridge light' syndrome - take out the action and you can't activate the Sos. Ped. - only simulate the act by revolving the Sos. Rail in the action. Question: Is this a 'trial and error' thingy? or (and I'm sure there must be) are there specific measurement that must be adhered to in setting up the Sos. Rail on the bench? Anyone?  BTW it's a Hamburg Model 'A' built 1914.   Michael (UK) . 
-------------------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
-------------------------------------------