CAUT

Hello,

I'm getting ready to restring two Steinway "B"'s here at San Francisco State U - each with the worst case of "snappy" tuning pins I have ever come across. I have been "tuning" these two beasts for the past 6 years - and I put "tuning" in quotation marks because it is impossible to precisely get the string into exactly the place I think it should be, that's how bad the "snappy" pins are. Any "tuning" currently is pretty much approximate...  These pianos live in a teaching studio - and I have recommended to the professor several times that they be restrung, but he demurred - he liked the way they sound just fine, and didn't want it to change, thank you...  Well, he just retired this semester, so these two fellows are on my hit list for restringing next - the strings are getting pretty funky also, and the dampers are kind of sloppy too  (whoever restrung them last... well, I'll stop here...)

Anyway, any recommendations to cure the "snappies" on this piano when restringing/repinning? These are original Steinway pinblocks (vintage 1924 and 1965), with 3/0 tuning pins in them. The current pins are pretty tight - if it weren't for the "snappies", I would nomally restring these two pianos using the same pins - in this climate, loose tuning pins are not a concern, especially here at SFSU, less than 1/2 mile from the Pacific and on top of what used to be San Francisco's water reservoirs until the late 1920's... But I guess I'll have to pull these and go up to 4/0, which will make them really too tight - so I will have to ream the tuning pin holes (which I don't usually do...)

Is there anything else I should do to make sure that the "snappies" don't return?

Oh yes, we neither have the facilities here for pinblock replacement, nor the budget to send it out (hell, I hope we have the budget for the bass strings, tuning pins, damper felt, agraffes, etc. - here in California these days it's deficit city...) so - pinblock replacement is not an option...

Thanks in advance,
-------------------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
A-Major Piano Services
Albany, CA 94706
510-558-0777
custos3@comcast.net

-------------------------------------------

Hi Israel,

 

I have had the same problem with the Baldwin Fs that we have here at Sac State- horribly snappy pins. After various bad solutions I hit on a winner. I pull the snappy pin and rub violin rosin on the threads. It does not take much. When I redrive the pin it is tight but moves with the little "clicks" we all love to tune. I have not yet had to do anything to the hole.  I bet you could reuse those old 3/0s with this technique.

 

I hope this works as well for you.

 

All the best,

 

Ted

-------------------------------------------
Ted Kidwell, RPT
California State University, Sacramento
Capistrano Hall, rm. 153
6000 J Street
Sacramento, CA 95819-6015
916.278.6737
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-15-2011 20:05
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

Hello,

I'm getting ready to restring two Steinway "B"'s here at San Francisco State U

Ted Thanks for the tip. I have two Balwin Fs here at Chico State with the same problem. I'll try your solution. Phil Frankenberg CSUChico Chico Ca.
Original Message ----- From: "Ted Kidwell" To: "Philip Frankenberg" Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 5:39 PM Subject: [PTG CAUT]: RE:Those "snappy" tuning pins.... > > > Hi Israel, > > I have had the same problem with the Baldwin Fs that we have here at Sac > State- horribly snappy pins. After various bad solutions I hit on a > winner. I pull the snappy pin and rub violin rosin on the threads. It does > not take much. When I redrive the pin it is tight but moves with the > little "clicks" we all love to tune. I have not yet had to do anything to > the hole. I bet you could reuse those old 3/0s with this technique. > > I hope this works as well for you. > > All the best, > > Ted > > > ------------------------------------------- > Ted Kidwell, RPT > California State University, Sacramento > Capistrano Hall, rm. 153 > 6000 J Street > Sacramento, CA 95819-6015 > 916.278.6737 > ------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > Original Message: > Sent: 11-15-2011 20:05 > From: Israel Stein > Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins.... > > Hello, > > I'm getting ready to restring two Steinway "B"'s here at San Francisco > State U > >

Hey, Ted and Phil,

Sounds like we have an epidemic going here at the Cal State U campuses - maybe I should check with Kathy and David at long beach state and whoever the poor soul who got the half-time job at San Jose State and see if they have any of those...

Anyway, thanks for all the suggestions, folks. Just to answer some questions - no, I did not try to measure the torque, the pins on both pianos are "pretty tight" - meaning, somewhere around 80-90 or so from the feel of it, I really don't think that measuring the torque would yield any useful information... As I wrote before - I would restring with the same pins, if not for the "snapping" (that is - not pull the pins from the plate and use dummy pins to make coils). We've done that successfully here at SFSU several times - in the conditions here, the pinblocks just don't wear out, but the strings rust and wear out pretty quickly... No, none of the pins are contacting the plate. In my years in this business I've never seen anything this bad, it really feels that there is some sort of contamination in those tuning pin holes. It sort of feels like removing this contamination - with the gun barrel brush or reamers - would be necessary...
-------------------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
A-Major Piano Services
Albany, CA 94706
510-558-0777
custos3@comcast.net

-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-15-2011 22:16
From: Philip Frankenberg
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

Ted
Thanks for the tip. I have two Balwin Fs here at Chico State with the same
problem. I'll try your solution.

Phil Frankenberg
CSUChico
Chico Ca.


Original Message -----
From: "Ted Kidwell"
To: "Philip Frankenberg"
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 5:39 PM
Subject: [PTG CAUT]: RE:Those "snappy" tuning pins....


>
>
> Hi Israel,
>
> I have had the same problem with the Baldwin Fs that we have here at Sac
> State- horribly snappy pins. After various bad solutions I hit on a
> winner. I pull the snappy pin and rub violin rosin on the threads. It does
> not take much. When I redrive the pin it is tight but moves with the
> little "clicks" we all love to tune. I have not yet had to do anything to
> the hole. I bet you could reuse those old 3/0s with this technique.
>
> I hope this works as well for you.
>
> All the best,
>
> Ted
>
>
> -------------------------------------------
> Ted Kidwell, RPT
> California State University, Sacramento
> Capistrano Hall, rm. 153
> 6000 J Street
> Sacramento, CA 95819-6015
> 916.278.6737
> -------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------
> Original Message:
> Sent: 11-15-2011 20:05
> From: Israel Stein
> Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....
>
> Hello,
>
> I'm getting ready to restring two Steinway "B"'s here at San Francisco
> State U
>
>

Ream the holes with a drill bit that is .010" smaller than the replacement pins.
Pre-ream with a bit .005 to .010" small than that.
Follow up with a .030 caliber gun barrel brush in a drill.

I recently did this on an S with nice results.
-------------------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Ed Foote RPT http://www.piano-tuners.org/edfoote/index.html
Original Message----- From: Israel >> I did not try to measure the torque, the pins on both pianos are "pretty tight" - meaning, somewhere around 80-90 or so from the feel of it, With only 85 ft/lbs to begin with, I would be cautious about taking the 3/0's out and putting them back in. You would maybe expect to end up with 70 ft/lbs? If consistent and stable, I would love to tune at that torque, but with the age of these pianos, you may just run into a bass pin that was a little oversized, now loose, etc. The breakaway problem (stiction) I have seen comes from pins that are glazed over with something. Who knows what may have been put in those holes over the last 60 years. There are some tuners out there that belong to no peer group and who ply their genius with all sorts of elixirs and potions, none of which they are going to mention lest others steal their secrets to perfect pianos. Those blocks could have doped ammonia and powdered sugar for all we know. And sometimes some of the most bizarre logic is applied to pianos with excellent craftsmanship, a local fact that has befuddled me for decades. I think I would restring a section above the treble break with the half-size up, or.....(here is that genius thang), take the pins out, lightly run a brass brush through the holes, swab the holes with CA and repin with new 3/0 pins which have no plating on the threads. It would be an easy to test attempt on a few pins in the top end. I have some CA pianos that have been stable and tunable for years, now. Regards, I really don't think that measuring the torque would yield any useful information... As I wrote before - I would restring with the same pins, if not for the "snapping" (that is - not pull the pins from the plate and use dummy pins to make coils). We've done that successfully here at SFSU several times - in the conditions here, the pinblocks just don't wear out, but the strings rust and wear out pretty quickly... No, none of the pins are contacting the plate. In my years in this business I've never seen anything this bad, it really feels that there is some sort of contamination in those tuning pin holes. It sort of feels like removing this contamination - with the gun barrel brush or reamers - would be necessary... ------------------------------------------- Israel Stein RPT A-Major Piano Services Albany, CA 94706 510-558-0777 custos3@comcast.net -------------------------------------------

"Swabbing with CA": for those who have done this I have a few questions.
Extra thin? Something different?
Method of choice? Pipecleaner folded in two, dipped in bottle, inserted in hole, rotated a bit is what occurs to me, but there may be other possibilities.
If doing a whole piano, rather than the odd pin, do you CA all the holes, then drive pins? IOW, is there a benefit to driving the pins while the CA is wet? Perhaps that depends on the formulation you are using?
What about Baldwin 500 ply blocks, anyone tried CA on them? Success?

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------

Greetings, I used a nylon dowel to spread a squirt of water-thin CA around the hole when I did the whole block. Strung it the next day. All was surprisingly well. I would be hesitant to use the CA in a block that is mostly glue. Ed Foote RPT http://www.piano-tuners.org/edfoote/index.html "Swabbing with CA": for those who have done this I have a few questions. Extra thin? Something different? Method of choice? Pipecleaner folded in two, dipped in bottle, inserted in hole, rotated a bit is what occurs to me, but there may be other possibilities. If doing a whole piano, rather than the odd pin, do you CA all the holes, then drive pins? IOW, is there a benefit to driving the pins while the CA is wet? Perhaps that depends on the formulation you are using? What about Baldwin 500 ply blocks, anyone tried CA on them? Success? ------------------------------------------- Fred Sturm University of New Mexico fssturm@unm.edu "The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein -------------------------------------------

Well, presumably the amount of glue in all those plies of the Baldwin block is a lot of the reason for the feel of those pins. If a skin of CA can feel better applied over glazed/contaminated/whatever-it-is wood, it might be that it feels better applied over glue and wood, acting as a coating between the block and the pin. CA isn't actually "glue" but more of an acrylic plastic, at least as I understand it. If you just apply CA at the base of the tuning pin and let it run into the crack, you aren't sure what might adhere to the pin and what to the block, but if you swab the hole, you are pretty sure of coating the wood/glue in a fairly permanent way. It is a possibility, anyway.

But I don't have any of those Baldwins at UNM, so no convenient guinea pigs. (I did have eight years of Baldwin loan program, and my shoulders still ache at the memory).

Ed Foote: "I would be hesitant to use the CA in a block that is mostly glue."
-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------

Israel-

You might consider LoTorq pins, if you can find any (3.5 size)
Also, Pianotek sells straight fluted reamers, which will size and clean the holes. Use in a T handle.
-------------------------------------------
Ed Sutton
Editor
Piano Technicians Journal
ed440@mindspring.com
704-536-7926

-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-15-2011 20:05
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

Hello,

I'm getting ready to restring two Steinway "B"'s here at San Francisco State U - each with the worst case of "snappy" tuning pins I have ever come across. I have been "tuning" these two beasts for the past 6 years - and I put "tuning" in quotation marks because it is impossible to precisely get the string into exactly the place I think it should be, that's how bad the "snappy" pins are. Any "tuning" currently is pretty much approximate...  These pianos live in a teaching studio - and I have recommended to the professor several times that they be restrung, but he demurred - he liked the way they sound just fine, and didn't want it to change, thank you...  Well, he just retired this semester, so these two fellows are on my hit list for restringing next - the strings are getting pretty funky also, and the dampers are kind of sloppy too  (whoever restrung them last... well, I'll stop here...)

Anyway, any recommendations to cure the "snappies" on this piano when restringing/repinning? These are original Steinway pinblocks (vintage 1924 and 1965), with 3/0 tuning pins in them. The current pins are pretty tight - if it weren't for the "snappies", I would nomally restring these two pianos using the same pins - in this climate, loose tuning pins are not a concern, especially here at SFSU, less than 1/2 mile from the Pacific and on top of what used to be San Francisco's water reservoirs until the late 1920's... But I guess I'll have to pull these and go up to 4/0, which will make them really too tight - so I will have to ream the tuning pin holes (which I don't usually do...)

Is there anything else I should do to make sure that the "snappies" don't return?

Oh yes, we neither have the facilities here for pinblock replacement, nor the budget to send it out (hell, I hope we have the budget for the bass strings, tuning pins, damper felt, agraffes, etc. - here in California these days it's deficit city...) so - pinblock replacement is not an option...

Thanks in advance,
-------------------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
A-Major Piano Services
Albany, CA 94706
510-558-0777
custos3@comcast.net

-------------------------------------------

Thanks, Ed. Paul Larudee (the inventor of LoTorq pins) lives  a couple towns up the road from me. Maybe he knows where there's a set or two left...

-------------------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
A-Major Piano Services
Albany, CA 94706
510-558-0777
custos3@comcast.net

-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-15-2011 21:19
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....


Israel-

You might consider LoTorq pins, if you can find any (3.5 size)
Also, Pianotek sells straight fluted reamers, which will size and clean the holes. Use in a T handle.
-------------------------------------------
Ed Sutton
Editor
Piano Technicians Journal
ed440@mindspring.com
704-536-7926

-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-15-2011 20:05
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

Hello,

I'm getting ready to restring two Steinway "B"'s here at San Francisco State U - each with the worst case of "snappy" tuning pins I have ever come across. I have been "tuning" these two beasts for the past 6 years - and I put "tuning" in quotation marks because it is impossible to precisely get the string into exactly the place I think it should be, that's how bad the "snappy" pins are. Any "tuning" currently is pretty much approximate...  These pianos live in a teaching studio - and I have recommended to the professor several times that they be restrung, but he demurred - he liked the way they sound just fine, and didn't want it to change, thank you...  Well, he just retired this semester, so these two fellows are on my hit list for restringing next - the strings are getting pretty funky also, and the dampers are kind of sloppy too  (whoever restrung them last... well, I'll stop here...)

Anyway, any recommendations to cure the "snappies" on this piano when restringing/repinning? These are original Steinway pinblocks (vintage 1924 and 1965), with 3/0 tuning pins in them. The current pins are pretty tight - if it weren't for the "snappies", I would nomally restring these two pianos using the same pins - in this climate, loose tuning pins are not a concern, especially here at SFSU, less than 1/2 mile from the Pacific and on top of what used to be San Francisco's water reservoirs until the late 1920's... But I guess I'll have to pull these and go up to 4/0, which will make them really too tight - so I will have to ream the tuning pin holes (which I don't usually do...)

Is there anything else I should do to make sure that the "snappies" don't return?

Oh yes, we neither have the facilities here for pinblock replacement, nor the budget to send it out (hell, I hope we have the budget for the bass strings, tuning pins, damper felt, agraffes, etc. - here in California these days it's deficit city...) so - pinblock replacement is not an option...

Thanks in advance,
-------------------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
A-Major Piano Services
Albany, CA 94706
510-558-0777
custos3@comcast.net

-------------------------------------------

If by "pretty tight" you mean over 130 in/lbs, I would probably take them out and repin with new 3/0 pins, using an appropriate gun cleaning brass brush to clean the wood without taking anything off the wood. something for a .270 caliber might be just right. 4/0 pins will make the problem worse, in my experience. Regards, Ed Foote RPT http://www.piano-tuners.org/edfoote/index.html -----
Original Message: Sent: 11-15-2011 20:05 From: Israel Stein Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins.... Hello, I'm getting ready to restring two Steinway "B"'s here at San Francisco State U - each with the worst case of "snappy" tuning pins I have ever come across. I have been "tuning" these two beasts for the past 6 years - and I put "tuning" in quotation marks because it is impossible to precisely get the string into exactly the place I think it should be, that's how bad the "snappy" pins are. Any "tuning" currently is pretty much approximate... These pianos live in a teaching studio - and I have recommended to the professor several times that they be restrung, but he demurred - he liked the way they sound just fine, and didn't want it to change, thank you... Well, he just retired this semester, so these two fellows are on my hit list for restringing next - the strings are getting pretty funky also, and the dampers are kind of sloppy too (whoever restrung them last... well, I'll stop here...) Anyway, any recommendations to cure the "snappies" on this piano when restringing/repinning? These are original Steinway pinblocks (vintage 1924 and 1965), with 3/0 tuning pins in them. The current pins are pretty tight - if it weren't for the "snappies", I would nomally restring these two pianos using the same pins - in this climate, loose tuning pins are not a concern, especially here at SFSU, less than 1/2 mile from the Pacific and on top of what used to be San Francisco's water reservoirs until the late 1920's... But I guess I'll have to pull these and go up to 4/0, which will make them really too tight - so I will have to ream the tuning pin holes (which I don't usually do...) Is there anything else I should do to make sure that the "snappies" don't return? Oh yes, we neither have the facilities here for pinblock replacement, nor the budget to send it out (hell, I hope we have the budget for the bass strings, tuning pins, damper felt, agraffes, etc. - here in California these days it's deficit city...) so - pinblock replacement is not an option... Thanks in advance, ------------------------------------------- Israel Stein RPT A-Major Piano Services Albany, CA 94706 510-558-0777 custos3@comcast.net -------------------------------------------

Israel -
What's the torque measure? Both directions.  Are tuning pins contacting plate?  Seems like it's worth experimenting with all of the previous suggestions.  What about pin driving fluid?  Why do you think they have 3/0's?  Wasn't Steinway normally using 2/0's?

-------------------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-15-2011 20:05
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

Hello,

I'm getting ready to restring two Steinway "B"'s here at San Francisco State U - each with the worst case of "snappy" tuning pins I have ever come across. I have been "tuning" these two beasts for the past 6 years - and I put "tuning" in quotation marks because it is impossible to precisely get the string into exactly the place I think it should be, that's how bad the "snappy" pins are. Any "tuning" currently is pretty much approximate...  These pianos live in a teaching studio - and I have recommended to the professor several times that they be restrung, but he demurred - he liked the way they sound just fine, and didn't want it to change, thank you...  Well, he just retired this semester, so these two fellows are on my hit list for restringing next - the strings are getting pretty funky also, and the dampers are kind of sloppy too  (whoever restrung them last... well, I'll stop here...)

Anyway, any recommendations to cure the "snappies" on this piano when restringing/repinning? These are original Steinway pinblocks (vintage 1924 and 1965), with 3/0 tuning pins in them. The current pins are pretty tight - if it weren't for the "snappies", I would nomally restring these two pianos using the same pins - in this climate, loose tuning pins are not a concern, especially here at SFSU, less than 1/2 mile from the Pacific and on top of what used to be San Francisco's water reservoirs until the late 1920's... But I guess I'll have to pull these and go up to 4/0, which will make them really too tight - so I will have to ream the tuning pin holes (which I don't usually do...)

Is there anything else I should do to make sure that the "snappies" don't return?

Oh yes, we neither have the facilities here for pinblock replacement, nor the budget to send it out (hell, I hope we have the budget for the bass strings, tuning pins, damper felt, agraffes, etc. - here in California these days it's deficit city...) so - pinblock replacement is not an option...

Thanks in advance,
-------------------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
A-Major Piano Services
Albany, CA 94706
510-558-0777
custos3@comcast.net

-------------------------------------------

David,

I don't "think" they are 3/0 - I know, 'cause I measured them. As I wrote in my first message, both pianos have been previously restrung...

-------------------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
A-Major Piano Services
Albany, CA 94706
510-558-0777
custos3@comcast.net

-------------------------------------------




Original Message:
Sent: 11-15-2011 21:53
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

Israel -
What's the torque measure? Both directions.  Are tuning pins contacting plate?  Seems like it's worth experimenting with all of the previous suggestions.  What about pin driving fluid?  Why do you think they have 3/0's?  Wasn't Steinway normally using 2/0's?

-------------------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-15-2011 20:05
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

Hello,

I'm getting ready to restring two Steinway "B"'s here at San Francisco State U - each with the worst case of "snappy" tuning pins I have ever come across. I have been "tuning" these two beasts for the past 6 years - and I put "tuning" in quotation marks because it is impossible to precisely get the string into exactly the place I think it should be, that's how bad the "snappy" pins are. Any "tuning" currently is pretty much approximate...  These pianos live in a teaching studio - and I have recommended to the professor several times that they be restrung, but he demurred - he liked the way they sound just fine, and didn't want it to change, thank you...  Well, he just retired this semester, so these two fellows are on my hit list for restringing next - the strings are getting pretty funky also, and the dampers are kind of sloppy too  (whoever restrung them last... well, I'll stop here...)

Anyway, any recommendations to cure the "snappies" on this piano when restringing/repinning? These are original Steinway pinblocks (vintage 1924 and 1965), with 3/0 tuning pins in them. The current pins are pretty tight - if it weren't for the "snappies", I would nomally restring these two pianos using the same pins - in this climate, loose tuning pins are not a concern, especially here at SFSU, less than 1/2 mile from the Pacific and on top of what used to be San Francisco's water reservoirs until the late 1920's... But I guess I'll have to pull these and go up to 4/0, which will make them really too tight - so I will have to ream the tuning pin holes (which I don't usually do...)

Is there anything else I should do to make sure that the "snappies" don't return?

Oh yes, we neither have the facilities here for pinblock replacement, nor the budget to send it out (hell, I hope we have the budget for the bass strings, tuning pins, damper felt, agraffes, etc. - here in California these days it's deficit city...) so - pinblock replacement is not an option...

Thanks in advance,
-------------------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
A-Major Piano Services
Albany, CA 94706
510-558-0777
custos3@comcast.net

-------------------------------------------

Hi Israel,

I had similar problems with a few S & S grands at Ball State University when I was there.  I marked the worst-offending tuning pins.  After removing the tuning pins in preparation for restringing, I found that inside the plate tuning pin holes, on the quadrant opposing the pull of the string's tension there were impressions of the tuning pin threads in the iron of the plate.  These were not present in the tuning pin holes of the pins that did not exhibit the "snappy" pin problem.   Apparently, over the years of repeated tuning the pin served as a tap to cut threads in the softer cast iron of the plate.  In at least one case, I reamed out the plate holes and installed tuning pin bushings.  In others, when I was replacing the pinblock, I deliberately drilled the pinblock off-center in the plate holes, with the drill bit just touching the edge of the plate hole opposite the direction that the string tension would pull the pin. 

If you use the original pinblock, larger diameter pins would make the problem worse, if the condition exists that I have described.  In fact, the piano having b een restrung with 3/0 pins may have contributed to the problem in your piano.  If I were using the original pinblock, I would ream out the plate holes, if not to a larger diameter, at least ovalling out the hole, removing material only from the side where there had been contact with the pin, or the risk of such contact.

I have heard the argument that introducing plate bushings where none existed before changes the dynamics of where stress is applied to the plate from the combined tension of the strings.  In a case where the piano has been living with direct contact between the pins and the plate for years, if not decades, no harm is done by introducing the buffer of a malleable wood bushing between the two.  Some say that plate bushings serve no other purpose than centering the drill bit for drilling the pinblock.  In the cases I have described the plate bushes truly served as bushings.  My suggestion to you, Israel, is to remove one of the worst offending tuning pins, and observe for yourself if this might not be the problem, and how best to resolve it under your conditions and given your resources.

-------------------------------------------
George (Frank) Emerson, RPT
Silver Springs FL
-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 11-15-2011 20:05
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

Hello,

I'm getting ready to restring two Steinway "B"'s here at San Francisco State U - each with the worst case of "snappy" tuning pins I have ever come across. I have been "tuning" these two beasts for the past 6 years - and I put "tuning" in quotation marks because it is impossible to precisely get the string into exactly the place I think it should be, that's how bad the "snappy" pins are. Any "tuning" currently is pretty much approximate...  These pianos live in a teaching studio - and I have recommended to the professor several times that they be restrung, but he demurred - he liked the way they sound just fine, and didn't want it to change, thank you...  Well, he just retired this semester, so these two fellows are on my hit list for restringing next - the strings are getting pretty funky also, and the dampers are kind of sloppy too  (whoever restrung them last... well, I'll stop here...)

Anyway, any recommendations to cure the "snappies" on this piano when restringing/repinning? These are original Steinway pinblocks (vintage 1924 and 1965), with 3/0 tuning pins in them. The current pins are pretty tight - if it weren't for the "snappies", I would nomally restring these two pianos using the same pins - in this climate, loose tuning pins are not a concern, especially here at SFSU, less than 1/2 mile from the Pacific and on top of what used to be San Francisco's water reservoirs until the late 1920's... But I guess I'll have to pull these and go up to 4/0, which will make them really too tight - so I will have to ream the tuning pin holes (which I don't usually do...)

Is there anything else I should do to make sure that the "snappies" don't return?

Oh yes, we neither have the facilities here for pinblock replacement, nor the budget to send it out (hell, I hope we have the budget for the bass strings, tuning pins, damper felt, agraffes, etc. - here in California these days it's deficit city...) so - pinblock replacement is not an option...

Thanks in advance,
-------------------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
A-Major Piano Services
Albany, CA 94706
510-558-0777
custos3@comcast.net

-------------------------------------------

>... I would ream out the plate holes, if not to a larger diameter, at least ovalling out the hole,...

I always do this when repinning (plate removed). A bit the same size as the hole or a few thou smaller
angled 2 to 3 times that of the pin angle will excavate metal from the rear bottom edge of the plate hole where the pin contacts. A bit larger than the hole will remove material from the front of the hole too. A ~same-sized bit makes the hole more oval, towards the rear - distal area.

Jon Page

Hello, Frank, good to hear from you.

I really do not think that my problem has anything to do with tuning pins binding on the plate - though I will check next Monday, when I am back at school. These are two different pianos, built many years apart, on which just about every single tuning pin is extremely snappy. How likely is it that just about every single tuning pin on two different pianos built many years apart, residing in the same institution would have this condition? I think that after 6 years of tuning these pianos maybe every 6 weeks or so I might have noticed that the tuning pins were rubbing on the plate. I really think that this is tuning pin hole contamination - because it is very likely that these pianos were both restrung by a technician who worked there many years ago who wasn't known for his high level of skill and craftsmanship. But, as I said, I'll check next Monday and let you all know...

-------------------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
A-Major Piano Services
Albany, CA 94706
510-558-0777
custos3@comcast.net

-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-16-2011 16:08
From: George Emerson
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

Hi Israel,

I had similar problems with a few S & S grands at Ball State University when I was there.  I marked the worst-offending tuning pins.  After removing the tuning pins in preparation for restringing, I found that inside the plate tuning pin holes, on the quadrant opposing the pull of the string's tension there were impressions of the tuning pin threads in the iron of the plate.  These were not present in the tuning pin holes of the pins that did not exhibit the "snappy" pin problem.   Apparently, over the years of repeated tuning the pin served as a tap to cut threads in the softer cast iron of the plate.  In at least one case, I reamed out the plate holes and installed tuning pin bushings.  In others, when I was replacing the pinblock, I deliberately drilled the pinblock off-center in the plate holes, with the drill bit just touching the edge of the plate hole opposite the direction that the string tension would pull the pin. 

If you use the original pinblock, larger diameter pins would make the problem worse, if the condition exists that I have described.  In fact, the piano having b een restrung with 3/0 pins may have contributed to the problem in your piano.  If I were using the original pinblock, I would ream out the plate holes, if not to a larger diameter, at least ovalling out the hole, removing material only from the side where there had been contact with the pin, or the risk of such contact.

I have heard the argument that introducing plate bushings where none existed before changes the dynamics of where stress is applied to the plate from the combined tension of the strings.  In a case where the piano has been living with direct contact between the pins and the plate for years, if not decades, no harm is done by introducing the buffer of a malleable wood bushing between the two.  Some say that plate bushings serve no other purpose than centering the drill bit for drilling the pinblock.  In the cases I have described the plate bushes truly served as bushings.  My suggestion to you, Israel, is to remove one of the worst offending tuning pins, and observe for yourself if this might not be the problem, and how best to resolve it under your conditions and given your resources.

-------------------------------------------
George (Frank) Emerson, RPT
Silver Springs FL
-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 11-15-2011 20:05
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

Hello,

I'm getting ready to restring two Steinway "B"'s here at San Francisco State U - each with the worst case of "snappy" tuning pins I have ever come across. I have been "tuning" these two beasts for the past 6 years - and I put "tuning" in quotation marks because it is impossible to precisely get the string into exactly the place I think it should be, that's how bad the "snappy" pins are. Any "tuning" currently is pretty much approximate...  These pianos live in a teaching studio - and I have recommended to the professor several times that they be restrung, but he demurred - he liked the way they sound just fine, and didn't want it to change, thank you...  Well, he just retired this semester, so these two fellows are on my hit list for restringing next - the strings are getting pretty funky also, and the dampers are kind of sloppy too  (whoever restrung them last... well, I'll stop here...)

Anyway, any recommendations to cure the "snappies" on this piano when restringing/repinning? These are original Steinway pinblocks (vintage 1924 and 1965), with 3/0 tuning pins in them. The current pins are pretty tight - if it weren't for the "snappies", I would nomally restring these two pianos using the same pins - in this climate, loose tuning pins are not a concern, especially here at SFSU, less than 1/2 mile from the Pacific and on top of what used to be San Francisco's water reservoirs until the late 1920's... But I guess I'll have to pull these and go up to 4/0, which will make them really too tight - so I will have to ream the tuning pin holes (which I don't usually do...)

Is there anything else I should do to make sure that the "snappies" don't return?

Oh yes, we neither have the facilities here for pinblock replacement, nor the budget to send it out (hell, I hope we have the budget for the bass strings, tuning pins, damper felt, agraffes, etc. - here in California these days it's deficit city...) so - pinblock replacement is not an option...

Thanks in advance,
-------------------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
A-Major Piano Services
Albany, CA 94706
510-558-0777
custos3@comcast.net

-------------------------------------------

Israel,

The others have posed some excellent ideas to help resolve your problem.  Here's a slightly different take.  I'm guessing that in a college scenario, you're stringing on existing pins in order to minimize cost?  I'm also guessing that you'd rather not have to remove the pins in order to employ some of the other remedial measures?

Having repinned many pianos in my career (I'm certain it's well over 100) I occasionally end up with the dreaded 'snappin' tight pin, in spite of best efforts to avoid it.  I experimented with retrofitting a tuning pin tip onto a soldering iron (the kind packaged with hammer and key bushing irons), and setting it on the offending pin for a period of time.  Introducing heat down the pin into the block in this way had the same effect it has on tight center pins ... it loosened it in a very controlled manner.  In fact, it was hard to over-do the amount and duration of heat.

The downside, however, is that this is a slow process.  It would take many hours to do all the pins in a piano ... but remember what happens when you unscrew a tight pin in order to wind a new string on it?  By the time it's threaded back into the block it has loosened considerably.  I find, on the occasional tight pin it works to simply turn the pin back and forth with your tuning hammer ... about 1/4 to 1/2 turn, repeatedly until the heat generated has loosened the block's grip on the pin.  This usually reduces the 'snap' to a 'tick' ... that's what we want, isn't it?

It would be a simply experiment to determine if this would be effective in your case (try it on a few pins first) and if so, you could collar some deserving student to apply the muscle to all of the pins.  What have you got to lose?

Best regards from the snowy Canadian prairie,

-------------------------------------------
Stan Kroeker
Winnipeg MB
204-669-5881
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-15-2011 20:05
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

Hello,

I'm getting ready to restring two Steinway "B"'s here at San Francisco State U - each with the worst case of "snappy" tuning pins I have ever come across. I have been "tuning" these two beasts for the past 6 years - and I put "tuning" in quotation marks because it is impossible to precisely get the string into exactly the place I think it should be, that's how bad the "snappy" pins are. Any "tuning" currently is pretty much approximate...  These pianos live in a teaching studio - and I have recommended to the professor several times that they be restrung, but he demurred - he liked the way they sound just fine, and didn't want it to change, thank you...  Well, he just retired this semester, so these two fellows are on my hit list for restringing next - the strings are getting pretty funky also, and the dampers are kind of sloppy too  (whoever restrung them last... well, I'll stop here...)

Anyway, any recommendations to cure the "snappies" on this piano when restringing/repinning? These are original Steinway pinblocks (vintage 1924 and 1965), with 3/0 tuning pins in them. The current pins are pretty tight - if it weren't for the "snappies", I would nomally restring these two pianos using the same pins - in this climate, loose tuning pins are not a concern, especially here at SFSU, less than 1/2 mile from the Pacific and on top of what used to be San Francisco's water reservoirs until the late 1920's... But I guess I'll have to pull these and go up to 4/0, which will make them really too tight - so I will have to ream the tuning pin holes (which I don't usually do...)

Is there anything else I should do to make sure that the "snappies" don't return?

Oh yes, we neither have the facilities here for pinblock replacement, nor the budget to send it out (hell, I hope we have the budget for the bass strings, tuning pins, damper felt, agraffes, etc. - here in California these days it's deficit city...) so - pinblock replacement is not an option...

Thanks in advance,
-------------------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
A-Major Piano Services
Albany, CA 94706
510-558-0777
custos3@comcast.net

-------------------------------------------

Stan,

Actually, in the California climate we restring without removing the pins because the pins simply do not get loose here (not much variation in huimidity over the seasons), and removing the pins to restring when strings get old takes material out of the pinblock, shortening its useful life - so why do it if it isn't necessary? When it is necessary, we can come up with the cost of tuning pins.  I don't believe that enlarging the tuning pin hole in this case will be of much use, if the problem is pinblock contamination, as I suspect. I'll end up with looser tuning pins that are still snappy - no? They are not too tight now - just snappy...  And it certainly won't help if the tuning pins are rubbing on the plate as some people suggested - correct?

-------------------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
A-Major Piano Services
Albany, CA 94706
510-558-0777
custos3@comcast.net

-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-16-2011 23:06
From: Stan Kroeker
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

Israel,

The others have posed some excellent ideas to help resolve your problem.  Here's a slightly different take.  I'm guessing that in a college scenario, you're stringing on existing pins in order to minimize cost?  I'm also guessing that you'd rather not have to remove the pins in order to employ some of the other remedial measures?

Having repinned many pianos in my career (I'm certain it's well over 100) I occasionally end up with the dreaded 'snappin' tight pin, in spite of best efforts to avoid it.  I experimented with retrofitting a tuning pin tip onto a soldering iron (the kind packaged with hammer and key bushing irons), and setting it on the offending pin for a period of time.  Introducing heat down the pin into the block in this way had the same effect it has on tight center pins ... it loosened it in a very controlled manner.  In fact, it was hard to over-do the amount and duration of heat.

The downside, however, is that this is a slow process.  It would take many hours to do all the pins in a piano ... but remember what happens when you unscrew a tight pin in order to wind a new string on it?  By the time it's threaded back into the block it has loosened considerably.  I find, on the occasional tight pin it works to simply turn the pin back and forth with your tuning hammer ... about 1/4 to 1/2 turn, repeatedly until the heat generated has loosened the block's grip on the pin.  This usually reduces the 'snap' to a 'tick' ... that's what we want, isn't it?

It would be a simply experiment to determine if this would be effective in your case (try it on a few pins first) and if so, you could collar some deserving student to apply the muscle to all of the pins.  What have you got to lose?

Best regards from the snowy Canadian prairie,

-------------------------------------------
Stan Kroeker
Winnipeg MB
204-669-5881
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-15-2011 20:05
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

Hello,

I'm getting ready to restring two Steinway "B"'s here at San Francisco State U - each with the worst case of "snappy" tuning pins I have ever come across. I have been "tuning" these two beasts for the past 6 years - and I put "tuning" in quotation marks because it is impossible to precisely get the string into exactly the place I think it should be, that's how bad the "snappy" pins are. Any "tuning" currently is pretty much approximate...  These pianos live in a teaching studio - and I have recommended to the professor several times that they be restrung, but he demurred - he liked the way they sound just fine, and didn't want it to change, thank you...  Well, he just retired this semester, so these two fellows are on my hit list for restringing next - the strings are getting pretty funky also, and the dampers are kind of sloppy too  (whoever restrung them last... well, I'll stop here...)

Anyway, any recommendations to cure the "snappies" on this piano when restringing/repinning? These are original Steinway pinblocks (vintage 1924 and 1965), with 3/0 tuning pins in them. The current pins are pretty tight - if it weren't for the "snappies", I would nomally restring these two pianos using the same pins - in this climate, loose tuning pins are not a concern, especially here at SFSU, less than 1/2 mile from the Pacific and on top of what used to be San Francisco's water reservoirs until the late 1920's... But I guess I'll have to pull these and go up to 4/0, which will make them really too tight - so I will have to ream the tuning pin holes (which I don't usually do...)

Is there anything else I should do to make sure that the "snappies" don't return?

Oh yes, we neither have the facilities here for pinblock replacement, nor the budget to send it out (hell, I hope we have the budget for the bass strings, tuning pins, damper felt, agraffes, etc. - here in California these days it's deficit city...) so - pinblock replacement is not an option...

Thanks in advance,
-------------------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
A-Major Piano Services
Albany, CA 94706
510-558-0777
custos3@comcast.net

-------------------------------------------

Israel,
It isn't necessarily contamination. I have a B that a colleague of mine restrung just before I got here. He did his standard work (and he is very conscientious), drilling out all holes for 4/0 pins. Some are snappy. In fact, he wrote a letter to Don Galt (am I remembering his name right? 1980 or so) when he was editor of the PTJ on the subject, asking for advice on that situation, as it came up often for him. (I think part of it was his desire for higher torque than necessary, so his hole size was a bit on the small side).
In this particular case (the one here at UNM I still deal with) it was a 20 year old piano that nobody had doped - nobody has doped any piano's pinblock here. Fortunately it is only a few pins, and I am thinking I might try CA on them, after 25 years of making do.
But sometimes snappiness just comes up out of nowhere. There was an upright at the Sauter factory while I was there that had the problem. It was brought to the attention of the Baumeister, who checked it out. He tried moving pins a lot (lower pitch a whole step or so and back up, rapidly a few times) with no improvement. He did a torque test, consulted with the stringing department (whoever had drilled the holes). Bottom line, no explanation, and the piano was to be junked. One piano out of hundreds - it was not a unique occurrence, as was clear from the conversation, but pretty rare.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------

I think it is entirely possible to get popping pins if you restring a piano that had 2/0 pins and simply use 3/0 pins, having done nothing to the block. Typically you would have fairly high torque as well, but the break-free pop is what makes it virtually untunable. I always attributed that partly to "glazing" in the hole. What's that? I dunno for sure. The hole looks brown/black and shiny. Could be partly from the original drilling, that could have scorched the wood somewhat. Could be partly from glue between the plies, that got heated/melted and brought into the surface of the hole. Could be some oxidation of the pins. Could be some dirt that got into whatever small gap there is between the pin and the surface of the wood and worked its way down. "Contamination," but not something somebody added, necessarily.
I experienced a lot of popping pins with delignit blocks, when they first came out and my colleagues were loving them. I attributed that to the multiple layers (more glue) and generally tighter holes (didn't crush nearly as much as maple). But that is a different animal from a factory Steinway.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------

I'm reposting the following so that it would be a part of the main thread.  I seem to be the only one who replied off of Ron's (see below).  An indulgence.  I hope it doesn't cause more problems.



Aspects of this discussion don't add up. Israel was dismissive (or seemed to be) when I originally asked about pins against the plate and why #3/0 pins had been used. We got hung up, momentarily, on the semantics of my question: I was asking why they were there...he thought I was asking why he thought
they were 3/0's. I keep reading that California climate doesn't destroy pinblocks like it does on this coast, so I continue to wonder about why two pianos, of different vintages, have 3/0's, not 2/0's, and the torque, by his estimate, is only around 90"lbs.

In the experience of those experienced of you, what possible contaminant would cause pins to snap @ 90lbs?
With or without string tension? With or without plate interference?

Of the numerous approaches suggested, do they represent a standard approach to new block or repinning, or are they used only remedially, for this type of problem?

I like Ron's explanation of the dynamics of plated inerference on the pin torque, and I will continue to think about it, but I don't entirely buy it, which I realize will undo years of avoiding disagreeing with him, and he is right to be dismissive of my scepticism until such time as I submit proof of my own thoughts about the condition, to wit:

Snapping condition can exist without pin/plate contact.
Are there a range of conditons that can independently cause what we perceive as 'snappy' pins?
In Israel's pianos, does the snapping persist, even if string is removed? And, if it's not too much trouble, it would be helpful (to the discussion) to have at least a few actual measurements. To say it "feels like 80 or 90" lends an unneccessary degree of subjectivity.

As for pin/plate contact, with or without snapping (which does exist), I take some issue with the way it has been portrayed as "universal" (for Steinway). It is not. I have seen plenty that do not do this, and I have challenged them when I've found it in new pianos. To Israel's assertion that he would have noticed, Ron said:
"I seriously doubt you would, since it's so nearly universal in Steinways
it's nothing that would get your attention. "
There is definitely a difference. With plate contact, you loose the subtle "flagpole" aspect of hammer technique. You have only twist. It's noticeable and limiting.

Last - friendly reminder about list protocol: we are, I believe, replying to Ron's post of 11/16, not Israel's original of 11/15. The two threads are, I believe, exclusive. If and when Ron replies, given the way he seems to be accessing the list, it will likely create yet a new thread. I'm just pointing out what is, as yet, an unresolved aspect of this new format that is most easily addressed by user behavior.

I'm ready.

-------------------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
-------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------

>Original Message:
>Sent: 11-17-2011 17:36
>From: David Skolnik
>Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

>Israel was dismissive (or seemed to be) when I originally asked about pins against the plate and
>why #3/0 pins had been used. We got hung up, momentarily, on the semantics of my question:
>I was asking why they were there...he thought I was asking why he thought they were 3/0's.
>I keep reading that California climate doesn't destroy pinblocks like it does on this coast, so I continue
>to wonder about why two pianos, of different vintages, have 3/0's, not 2/0's, and the torque, by his
>estimate, is only around 90"lbs.

Ah, sorry about the misunderstanding. Simple explanation. The climate here doesn't destroy pinblocks in 2-3 decades like it does on the East coast - But they do wear slowly. Eventually they do loosen up. So you can replace a couple sets of strings on the same tuning pins before you need to replace the pins. Larry Newhouse (at San Francisco Conservatory) has been doing this sort of restringing without pulling the pins for a long time now, and he reports that he has been able to replace strings once or twice without pulling the tuning pins before they get loose enough to require going up one size. Every time you back the pins out to put new wire on them, you lose some pinblock material - so the pins get looser. And the wood does deteriorate over time - albeit much more slowly than in more variable climates. Then there is abuse - sometimes I find these pianos with direct sun beating on the pinblock area (I wish pianists knew something about the instruments they depend on for a living - at least enough not to put them in harm's way). Then again, I believe that one of those pianos was donated to the school - and who knows where it came from before it got to San Francisco - it does look a bit more weather-beaten than usual for here). So I am not surprised to find 3/0 pins in the pianos. So far we restrung three grand pianos that were donated to the school - and all required going up a size on the tuning pins. But in the pianos that live here at SFSU, the strings get beaten and rusted to death long before the tuning pins get loose.

-------------------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
A-Major Piano Services
Albany, CA 94706
510-558-0777
custos3@comcast.net

Fred,

I would concede all your points if we were dealing with just an ordinary case of snappy pins - maybe a handful, or maybe even several dozen, of varying degrees of "snappiness". But I don't know how many times I have written that this is something that I have never seen before - just about every pin on both pianos has a severe case of the "snappies". I can't see where the conditions that you describe below would afflict two pianos of widely differing vintages to such an extreme degree. The only explanation that I find reasonable is that it some sort of problem that was introduced to every pin - either a contaminant, or poor plate installation with respect to the pinblock which would cause just about every pin to rub on the plate. Though I have my doubts on this last one - how likely is it for two pianos of widely different vintages both having this plate installation problem to end up in the same teaching studio? But this is still more likely, I think,  than the sort of conditions you speak of below afflicting just about every pin on two different pianos to such a degree... There is another explanation that I received privately that makes sense to me - but the person who sent it to me should post it, if he wishes...

In any case, I checking out these pianos again on Monday, armed with all the information provided in this thread - and I'll share my findings then.

-------------------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
A-Major Piano Services
Albany, CA 94706
510-558-0777
custos3@comcast.net

-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 11-17-2011 10:33
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

Israel,
It isn't necessarily contamination. I have a B that a colleague of mine restrung just before I got here. He did his standard work (and he is very conscientious), drilling out all holes for 4/0 pins. Some are snappy. In fact, he wrote a letter to Don Galt (am I remembering his name right? 1980 or so) when he was editor of the PTJ on the subject, asking for advice on that situation, as it came up often for him. (I think part of it was his desire for higher torque than necessary, so his hole size was a bit on the small side).
In this particular case (the one here at UNM I still deal with) it was a 20 year old piano that nobody had doped - nobody has doped any piano's pinblock here. Fortunately it is only a few pins, and I am thinking I might try CA on them, after 25 years of making do.
But sometimes snappiness just comes up out of nowhere. There was an upright at the Sauter factory while I was there that had the problem. It was brought to the attention of the Baumeister, who checked it out. He tried moving pins a lot (lower pitch a whole step or so and back up, rapidly a few times) with no improvement. He did a torque test, consulted with the stringing department (whoever had drilled the holes). Bottom line, no explanation, and the piano was to be junked. One piano out of hundreds - it was not a unique occurrence, as was clear from the conversation, but pretty rare.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------

One thing that occurs to me is "pin driving fluid." I know there are traditions of dipping a tuning pin in something, sometimes varnish, before driving them, for some reason or other (nothing I have ever done myself, and haven't known anyone who did it, so it is outside my experience). Some fluids might actually improve tunability in some fashion, but if someone used the wrong formulation, it might get sticky with time and cause a friction problem, a break loose problem. Kind of like WD-40 in action centers, that frees them up initially, then becomes gummy with time. It's a hypothesis that fits the facts, anyway. Removing a couple pins and examining them and the hole (to the extent that is possible) might yield some evidence (something gummy on the surface of the pins, for instance).

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-17-2011 22:17
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

Fred,

I would concede all your points if we were dealing with just an ordinary case of snappy pins - maybe a handful, or maybe even several dozen, of varying degrees of "snappiness". But I don't know how many times I have written that this is something that I have never seen before - just about every pin on both pianos has a severe case of the "snappies". I can't see where the conditions that you describe below would afflict two pianos of widely differing vintages to such an extreme degree. The only explanation that I find reasonable is that it some sort of problem that was introduced to every pin - either a contaminant, or poor plate installation with respect to the pinblock which would cause just about every pin to rub on the plate. Though I have my doubts on this last one - how likely is it for two pianos of widely different vintages both having this plate installation problem to end up in the same teaching studio? But this is still more likely, I think,  than the sort of conditions you speak of below afflicting just about every pin on two different pianos to such a degree... There is another explanation that I received privately that makes sense to me - but the person who sent it to me should post it, if he wishes...

In any case, I checking out these pianos again on Monday, armed with all the information provided in this thread - and I'll share my findings then.

-------------------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
A-Major Piano Services
Albany, CA 94706
510-558-0777
custos3@comcast.net

-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 11-17-2011 10:33
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

Israel,
It isn't necessarily contamination. I have a B that a colleague of mine restrung just before I got here. He did his standard work (and he is very conscientious), drilling out all holes for 4/0 pins. Some are snappy. In fact, he wrote a letter to Don Galt (am I remembering his name right? 1980 or so) when he was editor of the PTJ on the subject, asking for advice on that situation, as it came up often for him. (I think part of it was his desire for higher torque than necessary, so his hole size was a bit on the small side).
In this particular case (the one here at UNM I still deal with) it was a 20 year old piano that nobody had doped - nobody has doped any piano's pinblock here. Fortunately it is only a few pins, and I am thinking I might try CA on them, after 25 years of making do.
But sometimes snappiness just comes up out of nowhere. There was an upright at the Sauter factory while I was there that had the problem. It was brought to the attention of the Baumeister, who checked it out. He tried moving pins a lot (lower pitch a whole step or so and back up, rapidly a few times) with no improvement. He did a torque test, consulted with the stringing department (whoever had drilled the holes). Bottom line, no explanation, and the piano was to be junked. One piano out of hundreds - it was not a unique occurrence, as was clear from the conversation, but pretty rare.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------

Interesting hypothesis, Fred. I won't be able to pull pins and examine them until after the semester is over - right now the pianos are in use. But it's worth taking the time once classes are over. And the work - if it is approved - won't happen until the summer. We have to plan now, put in a request and get the money for parts (and order them) now - because later there will be no money...

-------------------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
A-Major Piano Services
Albany, CA 94706
510-558-0777
custos3@comcast.net

-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 11-18-2011 10:30
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

One thing that occurs to me is "pin driving fluid." I know there are traditions of dipping a tuning pin in something, sometimes varnish, before driving them, for some reason or other (nothing I have ever done myself, and haven't known anyone who did it, so it is outside my experience). Some fluids might actually improve tunability in some fashion, but if someone used the wrong formulation, it might get sticky with time and cause a friction problem, a break loose problem. Kind of like WD-40 in action centers, that frees them up initially, then becomes gummy with time. It's a hypothesis that fits the facts, anyway. Removing a couple pins and examining them and the hole (to the extent that is possible) might yield some evidence (something gummy on the surface of the pins, for instance).

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-17-2011 22:17
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

Fred,

I would concede all your points if we were dealing with just an ordinary case of snappy pins - maybe a handful, or maybe even several dozen, of varying degrees of "snappiness". But I don't know how many times I have written that this is something that I have never seen before - just about every pin on both pianos has a severe case of the "snappies". I can't see where the conditions that you describe below would afflict two pianos of widely differing vintages to such an extreme degree. The only explanation that I find reasonable is that it some sort of problem that was introduced to every pin - either a contaminant, or poor plate installation with respect to the pinblock which would cause just about every pin to rub on the plate. Though I have my doubts on this last one - how likely is it for two pianos of widely different vintages both having this plate installation problem to end up in the same teaching studio? But this is still more likely, I think,  than the sort of conditions you speak of below afflicting just about every pin on two different pianos to such a degree... There is another explanation that I received privately that makes sense to me - but the person who sent it to me should post it, if he wishes...

In any case, I checking out these pianos again on Monday, armed with all the information provided in this thread - and I'll share my findings then.

-------------------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
A-Major Piano Services
Albany, CA 94706
510-558-0777
custos3@comcast.net

-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 11-17-2011 10:33
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

Israel,
It isn't necessarily contamination. I have a B that a colleague of mine restrung just before I got here. He did his standard work (and he is very conscientious), drilling out all holes for 4/0 pins. Some are snappy. In fact, he wrote a letter to Don Galt (am I remembering his name right? 1980 or so) when he was editor of the PTJ on the subject, asking for advice on that situation, as it came up often for him. (I think part of it was his desire for higher torque than necessary, so his hole size was a bit on the small side).
In this particular case (the one here at UNM I still deal with) it was a 20 year old piano that nobody had doped - nobody has doped any piano's pinblock here. Fortunately it is only a few pins, and I am thinking I might try CA on them, after 25 years of making do.
But sometimes snappiness just comes up out of nowhere. There was an upright at the Sauter factory while I was there that had the problem. It was brought to the attention of the Baumeister, who checked it out. He tried moving pins a lot (lower pitch a whole step or so and back up, rapidly a few times) with no improvement. He did a torque test, consulted with the stringing department (whoever had drilled the holes). Bottom line, no explanation, and the piano was to be junked. One piano out of hundreds - it was not a unique occurrence, as was clear from the conversation, but pretty rare.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------

Hi Fred,

 

Your thoughts prompt me to expand on my original suggestion to Israel to use violin rosin on the snappers.  This has been a real issue with me for years. I do a lot of concert tunings. There is nothing more horrible than waggling a pin back and forth and getting somewhat random results. Even when the unison is dialed in it can be hard to know exactly where you have left potential energy in the pin or string that will cause it to go out of tune at an inopportune moment. I don't care how awesome your tuning lever technique is, some pins just won't tune.

 

For example, I have a S&S D here on campus that was restrung by others. I don't know what kind of block it is but some of the pins had way too high a torque and would definitely qualify as snappy. What to do? Be a purist and just not use any kind of treatment to the pin? No, I think it is better to do what it takes to make the piano tunable and stable. I tried varnish as you mention. It made the condition much, much better. I did not really mind the feel and, 5 years later, the piano is still easy to tune. However, I did not love the feel. It was a bit mooshy for my taste. Not enough click as I turned the pin. Also, it was a messy and left an odor at the piano. I did a lot of asking and research on pin driving fluids. Many involved dissolving rosin in various mediums and in various ratios. I never tried any of those but it occurred to me to try simply rubbing the rosin directly onto the threads of the pin. I tried this on an impossible-to-tune Baldwin F that I had planned to replace the block some day. I lowered tension on just one pin, pulled off the coil, spun the pin the rest of the way out, rosined and restrung. That pin went from impossible to perfect. Hmmmm. So I started doing this more and more.  When I restring I am now in the habit of doing A/B comparisons of plain and rosined pins. I almost always opt for the rosin.

 

Also, though I pride myself on a complete service for private clients, I seldom replace the pinblock on a service call. If there is a pin or two that I feel will not be stable I can do this procedure in minutes and the problem is permanently solved.

 

Some considerations:

rosin is so stable that it is unlikely to change over time. Since I am not dissolving it in anything there is nothing to flash off or soak into the block.

Everyone from violinists to ballet dancers to baseball pitchers use rosin to increase friction. I believe for me this increases control over the pin as it turns in the block.

I am rubbing this interesting substance that is both brittle and gummy at the same time onto the pin. So it will not tend to be squeezed off the pin as it is driven and collect at the top of the hole.

 

If you or anyone on the list can think of a reason this is a bad practice or could lead to bad results down the road I would certainly like to hear this information. I suspect all of us CAUTs have some pianos that have nothing to lose. I would be curious to hear if anyone chooses to try this technique and what their experience is.

 

Regards,

 

Ted

 

-------------------------------------------
Ted Kidwell, RPT
California State University, Sacramento
Capistrano Hall, rm. 153
6000 J Street
Sacramento, CA 95819-6015
916.278.6737
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-18-2011 10:30
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

One thing that occurs to me is "pin driving fluid." I know there are traditions of dipping a tuning pin in something, sometimes varnish, before driving them, for some reason or other (nothing I have ever done myself, and haven't known anyone who did it, so it is outside my experience). Some fluids might actually improve tunability in some fashion, but if someone used the wrong formulation, it might get sticky with time and cause a friction problem, a break loose problem. Kind of like WD-40 in action centers, that frees them up initially, then becomes gummy with time. It's a hypothesis that fits the facts, anyway. Removing a couple pins and examining them and the hole (to the extent that is possible) might yield some evidence (something gummy on the surface of the pins, for instance).

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-17-2011 22:17
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

Fred,

I would concede all your points if we were dealing with just an ordinary case of snappy pins - maybe a handful, or maybe even several dozen, of varying degrees of "snappiness". But I don't know how many times I have written that this is something that I have never seen before - just about every pin on both pianos has a severe case of the "snappies". I can't see where the conditions that you describe below would afflict two pianos of widely differing vintages to such an extreme degree. The only explanation that I find reasonable is that it some sort of problem that was introduced to every pin - either a contaminant, or poor plate installation with respect to the pinblock which would cause just about every pin to rub on the plate. Though I have my doubts on this last one - how likely is it for two pianos of widely different vintages both having this plate installation problem to end up in the same teaching studio? But this is still more likely, I think,  than the sort of conditions you speak of below afflicting just about every pin on two different pianos to such a degree... There is another explanation that I received privately that makes sense to me - but the person who sent it to me should post it, if he wishes...

In any case, I checking out these pianos again on Monday, armed with all the information provided in this thread - and I'll share my findings then.

-------------------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
A-Major Piano Services
Albany, CA 94706
510-558-0777
custos3@comcast.net

-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 11-17-2011 10:33
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

Israel,
It isn't necessarily contamination. I have a B that a colleague of mine restrung just before I got here. He did his standard work (and he is very conscientious), drilling out all holes for 4/0 pins. Some are snappy. In fact, he wrote a letter to Don Galt (am I remembering his name right? 1980 or so) when he was editor of the PTJ on the subject, asking for advice on that situation, as it came up often for him. (I think part of it was his desire for higher torque than necessary, so his hole size was a bit on the small side).
In this particular case (the one here at UNM I still deal with) it was a 20 year old piano that nobody had doped - nobody has doped any piano's pinblock here. Fortunately it is only a few pins, and I am thinking I might try CA on them, after 25 years of making do.
But sometimes snappiness just comes up out of nowhere. There was an upright at the Sauter factory while I was there that had the problem. It was brought to the attention of the Baumeister, who checked it out. He tried moving pins a lot (lower pitch a whole step or so and back up, rapidly a few times) with no improvement. He did a torque test, consulted with the stringing department (whoever had drilled the holes). Bottom line, no explanation, and the piano was to be junked. One piano out of hundreds - it was not a unique occurrence, as was clear from the conversation, but pretty rare.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------

Hi Ted,

Are you using solid rosin, just as provided to violinists for bows? That is what I am picturing. Rubbing it in line with the length of the pin, against the threads, turning the pin to cover it all?

And, no, I see nothing whatsoever wrong with doing that. If you want a "philosophical" reason, it is a natural wood product, putting a bit of something that comes from wood on the surface of wood - if that kind of reasoning makes you feel better. The only down side I could see would be if it somehow degraded/changed over time, and that doesn't seem likely. It is also possible to get powdered rosin, which might be more efficient to apply, but then again it might not adhere as well in the threads.

BTW, my post about pin-driving fluids was mostly guessing about why Israel's pianos were so consistently jumpy, thinking that maybe a well-intentioned but badly informed application of some substance was used as a "pin-driving solution," and that the substance became sticky/gummy in time. If such a substance is on the surface of the holes, it might pay to ream it or brush it off before doing anything else.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------

This from Alan Crane:

Hi Fred & Israel,

No time now to mess with logging-on just to reply... you can forward some or all of this if you want to.

My mentor used to sprinkle a liberal amount of powdered rosin (sporting goods stores stock it for baseball pitchers and others) into the top of a box of new tuning pins as he prepared to restring a piano.  The rosin worked down into the threads as pins were removed one-by-one in the stringing process.  In addition, the rosin coated his fingers & palms allowing him to string w/out gloves (which was his preference).  The rosin in the pin threads was carried into the pinblock resulting in a very nice even torque-feel with no jumpiness.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------

I had the same mentor as Alan. I learned the same technique with regard to dropping powdered rosin into the box of tuning pins. I have done this with every piano I have ever strung, just out of habit. Never had a reason to question the technique; I like the feel. Kent Swafford On Nov 18, 2011, at 4:42 PM, Fred Sturm wrote: > > > > This from Alan Crane: > > Hi Fred & Israel, > No time now to mess with logging-on just to reply... you can forward some or all of this if you want to. > My mentor used to sprinkle a liberal amount of powdered rosin (sporting goods stores stock it for baseball pitchers and others) into the top of a box of new tuning pins as he prepared to restring a piano. The rosin worked down into the threads as pins were removed one-by-one in the stringing process. In addition, the rosin coated his fingers & palms allowing him to string w/out gloves (which was his preference). The rosin in the pin threads was carried into the pinblock resulting in a very nice even torque-feel with no jumpiness. > > ------------------------------------------- > Fred Sturm > University of New Mexico > fssturm@unm.edu > "The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein > ------------------------------------------- > > > > > > >

Hi Fred,

Yes. Just as you say. I am taking a cake of rosin that is sold to violinists and rubbing it lengthwise onto the pin. I just watch as I am doing this and make sure the threads have grabbed a bit of the rosin. Then I drive as I normally would .

 

Alan and Kent bring up the idea of sprinkling powdered rosin into the box of pins.  This sounds like a great way to do the same thing faster and probably more consistently. I just don't know if I want to have rosin on the tops of the pins.

-------------------------------------------
Ted Kidwell, RPT
California State University, Sacramento
Capistrano Hall, rm. 153
6000 J Street
Sacramento, CA 95819-6015
916.278.6737
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-18-2011 16:13
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

Hi Ted,

Are you using solid rosin, just as provided to violinists for bows? That is what I am picturing. Rubbing it in line with the length of the pin, against the threads, turning the pin to cover it all?

And, no, I see nothing whatsoever wrong with doing that. If you want a "philosophical" reason, it is a natural wood product, putting a bit of something that comes from wood on the surface of wood - if that kind of reasoning makes you feel better. The only down side I could see would be if it somehow degraded/changed over time, and that doesn't seem likely. It is also possible to get powdered rosin, which might be more efficient to apply, but then again it might not adhere as well in the threads.

BTW, my post about pin-driving fluids was mostly guessing about why Israel's pianos were so consistently jumpy, thinking that maybe a well-intentioned but badly informed application of some substance was used as a "pin-driving solution," and that the substance became sticky/gummy in time. If such a substance is on the surface of the holes, it might pay to ream it or brush it off before doing anything else.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------

Throwing this link in, just to cover the health bases, with regard to Rosin:
http://www.chicagoartistsresource.org/node/9251

I'd love to see the variables of this thread broken out and addressed methodically, in a way that takes Ron's caution to heart  "
Or there's always speculation. That's good for a lifetime."
There is plenty of follow-through potential in the preceding discussion. For example, Ted Kidwell wrote:

I tried this on an impossible-to-tune Baldwin F that I had planned to replace the block some day. I lowered tension on just one pin, pulled off the coil, spun the pin the rest of the way out, rosined and restrung. That pin went from impossible to perfect. Hmmmm.

Since it seems generallyagreed that extracting a pin has some enlarging effect on the hole, what might have been the outcome of re-driving that same pin, or one of the same size (same brand, different brand, different length) without rosin application?

If you accept Ron's explanation of the origin of snapping as the differential between static and kinetic (slidding) friction, even as a conjectural model, what subset of conditions actually causes the snap?

Are all 'snaps' alike?  Are Israel's, at 90lbs. the same as ones at 180lbs? 

What's the difference between the micro-snaps that are controlable and helpful in tuning and those macro-snaps that undermine the process?

I wonder if, using Fred's earlier(?) attempt at a wiki-model pianopedia, we could structure a thoroughly thought-out study/experiment that would extablish specific testing parameters and then distribute the testing among interested and qualified (possessing adequate tools, materials and facilities) participants.  - pin brands, measurements, drill bits, rotational and feed speeds, types of block material, humidity.  Can we intentionally produce 'snapping' conditions?

I know Ron had sent me a print out of some data a while ago that I believe were the results of his own testing.  I can't locate it at the moment, but I never throw out anything.


-------------------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-18-2011 18:07
From: Ted Kidwell
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

Hi Fred,

Yes. Just as you say. I am taking a cake of rosin that is sold to violinists and rubbing it lengthwise onto the pin. I just watch as I am doing this and make sure the threads have grabbed a bit of the rosin. Then I drive as I normally would .

 

Alan and Kent bring up the idea of sprinkling powdered rosin into the box of pins.  This sounds like a great way to do the same thing faster and probably more consistently. I just don't know if I want to have rosin on the tops of the pins.

-------------------------------------------
Ted Kidwell, RPT
California State University, Sacramento
Capistrano Hall, rm. 153
6000 J Street
Sacramento, CA 95819-6015
916.278.6737
-------------------------------------------

Doing a long term, semi-scientific study sounds like a good idea, assuming there are actually people who participate, either as organizers or as contributors. The Wiki project is a case in point where an actual wiki structure was set up, with an informal "committee" of maybe 10 people, and a grand total of two (Scott Thile and myself) actually did anything at all on it. Not to say something couldn't happen, but there are more great ideas out there than people who follow through. Easier, though, to collect what people have already tested. There is a lot of experience with various block materials, drill sizes and speeds, tuning pin types. As to whether and how one can create snapping pins, I guess that would be an interesting project, for someone with some old blocks and scrap block materials of different sorts. High speed drilling (scorching the hole), different sizes of hole, various liquid materials, etc.

One of the interesting features of the MyPTG setup is the blog. Blogs don't appeal to me as they are usually used, just a bunch more clutter and fluff to ignore. However, if you look at it as a tool, the blog has some potential. It can be edited (by the creator). It can be commented upon (by anyone), and those comments can be edited (by their creators). So if one wanted to create a project on various aspects of tuning pin friction, one could create one or more blogs as a central communicating post. Let people know it exists and invite participation. Over time, something could evolve. Or not.

In any case, I wanted to point out that there are many alternatives to the email list form of communication, and the blog is one tool we have available to us, with many potential uses. I have been thinking of creating some single topic blogs and posting compiled previous posts (probably edited) - a way of doing something like what the wiki project was intended to do.

Skolnik: I wonder if, using Fred's earlier(?) attempt at a wiki-model pianopedia, we could structure a thoroughly thought-out study/experiment that would extablish specific testing parameters and then distribute the testing among interested and qualified (possessing adequate tools, materials and facilities) participants.  - pin brands, measurements, drill bits, rotational and feed speeds, types of block material, humidity.  Can we intentionally produce 'snapping' conditions?
-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------

I was taught to use powdered rosin on the pins prior to pounding them in. I have a small plastic jar and circle the pin circulating out to the sides to rub the powder onto the threads. So... always did, always will.

There were two times where I developed jumpy pins. One was from drilling a hole too small and the other was from a 2.5" pin which should have been 2.25". Mistakes I'll try not to make again.

Live and learn.
-------------------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Hello,

Well, I forgot that there are no classes today (through Thanksgiving) - so I actually got to spend some quality time with these two pianos, and do some research in the piano records (instead of running around like a maniac and trying to fit work in between classes and rehearsals).

So I did pull a few pins on both pianos, and found no sticky substances in either instrument - just lots of corrosion on the threads (4 or 5 separate bands all the way down to the bottom) and splotches of some sort of gray discoloration inside the tuning pin holes. I also have lots of updated information on the pianos:

1. The older piano (1923) had the pinblock replaced between 1991 and 1999. Yes, that's how long it was in the shop for "rebuilding" according to the record. Since there is no drill press in this shop, I have no idea how the pinblock drilling was done. Maybe in the Theater Scene Shop - where there is a drill press (and planers, and jointers and all that other woodworking stuff). The pinblock appears to be maple - but it's hard to tell. (Never thought of the possibility of the pinblock having been replaced - doesn't come to mind when the plate is all grungy with the original factory numbers on it. But I guess spraying the plate wasn't a priority here - especially when a rebuilding job takes eight years without it...)

I did measure the torque this time - and, well, it's all over the place, from about 80 to over 120 on some pins. So I guess I shouldn't trust my impression from tuning...  The tuning pins are not quite size 3/0 and not quite 2/0 - the mic. measurement varied between .283 and .284. At last week's quick measurement with a t.p. gauge, the gauge didn't quite fit around the pins that I measured - so I assumed they were 3/0. The length is 2 3/8,  they are plated, and the threads appear to be rolled. Oh yes, no relationship between torque and "snappyness"....

2. The newer piano (1965) was - according to the records - restrung in 1994 by the same person, mostly with 3/0x2 3/8 pins, but 4/0x2 3/8 on the lowest two plain wire pins and on the 15 1/2 gauge wire (corroborated by measuring). These pins are un-plated  (once upon a time blued...) Here the torque was again all over the place - 80 to 120+ with no correspondence between torque and "snappyness". Pulling pins again showed the same corrosion pattern and the same grayish discoloration inside the tuning pin holes.

I checked for pins "riding the plate" on both pianos. There are a few pins that appear to be close enough to the plate to be "riding" - but that bears no relation to the "snapping" behavior, either its presence or intensity.

So, I don't know if this additional/updated information is of much use, but here it is...

-------------------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
A-Major Piano Services
Albany, CA 94706
510-558-0777
custos3@comcast.net

-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 11-18-2011 10:30
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

One thing that occurs to me is "pin driving fluid." I know there are traditions of dipping a tuning pin in something, sometimes varnish, before driving them, for some reason or other (nothing I have ever done myself, and haven't known anyone who did it, so it is outside my experience). Some fluids might actually improve tunability in some fashion, but if someone used the wrong formulation, it might get sticky with time and cause a friction problem, a break loose problem. Kind of like WD-40 in action centers, that frees them up initially, then becomes gummy with time. It's a hypothesis that fits the facts, anyway. Removing a couple pins and examining them and the hole (to the extent that is possible) might yield some evidence (something gummy on the surface of the pins, for instance).

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------

Hey Israel -
The new information may or may not provide an explicit answer, but it's fascinating how its specificness seems to change the tone of the discussion.  It would be interesting if you could take a number of the snappers and try different measures on them, starting with the least severe.  For example, you could measure the torque (both directions)on a particular sample, with and without string tension. Depending upon the sophistication of your torque wrench, you might be able to discern some difference between static and kinetic friction.  Next, you could take the pin out (measure it precisely) and reinstall it, possibly cleaning off the corrosion (without otherwise altering the thread properties or dimensions).  Remeasure torque and note snap status.  Brush hole, use rosin, try Ron's tuning pin suggestion (Denro) etc.  The possibilities are considerable.  Have fun.  Don't hurt yourself.
-------------------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
-------------------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 11-21-2011 15:57
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

Hello,

Well, I forgot that there are no classes today (through Thanksgiving) - so I actually got to spend some quality time with these two pianos, and do some research in the piano records (instead of running around like a maniac and trying to fit work in between classes and rehearsals).

So I did pull a few pins on both pianos, and found no sticky substances in either instrument - just lots of corrosion on the threads (4 or 5 separate bands all the way down to the bottom) and splotches of some sort of gray discoloration inside the tuning pin holes. I also have lots of updated information on the pianos:

1. The older piano (1923) had the pinblock replaced between 1991 and 1999. Yes, that's how long it was in the shop for "rebuilding" according to the record. Since there is no drill press in this shop, I have no idea how the pinblock drilling was done. Maybe in the Theater Scene Shop - where there is a drill press (and planers, and jointers and all that other woodworking stuff). The pinblock appears to be maple - but it's hard to tell. (Never thought of the possibility of the pinblock having been replaced - doesn't come to mind when the plate is all grungy with the original factory numbers on it. But I guess spraying the plate wasn't a priority here - especially when a rebuilding job takes eight years without it...)

I did measure the torque this time - and, well, it's all over the place, from about 80 to over 120 on some pins. So I guess I shouldn't trust my impression from tuning...  The tuning pins are not quite size 3/0 and not quite 2/0 - the mic. measurement varied between .283 and .284. At last week's quick measurement with a t.p. gauge, the gauge didn't quite fit around the pins that I measured - so I assumed they were 3/0. The length is 2 3/8,  they are plated, and the threads appear to be rolled. Oh yes, no relationship between torque and "snappyness"....

2. The newer piano (1965) was - according to the records - restrung in 1994 by the same person, mostly with 3/0x2 3/8 pins, but 4/0x2 3/8 on the lowest two plain wire pins and on the 15 1/2 gauge wire (corroborated by measuring). These pins are un-plated  (once upon a time blued...) Here the torque was again all over the place - 80 to 120+ with no correspondence between torque and "snappyness". Pulling pins again showed the same corrosion pattern and the same grayish discoloration inside the tuning pin holes.

I checked for pins "riding the plate" on both pianos. There are a few pins that appear to be close enough to the plate to be "riding" - but that bears no relation to the "snapping" behavior, either its presence or intensity.

So, I don't know if this additional/updated information is of much use, but here it is...

-------------------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
A-Major Piano Services
Albany, CA 94706
510-558-0777
custos3@comcast.net

-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 11-18-2011 10:30
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

One thing that occurs to me is "pin driving fluid." I know there are traditions of dipping a tuning pin in something, sometimes varnish, before driving them, for some reason or other (nothing I have ever done myself, and haven't known anyone who did it, so it is outside my experience). Some fluids might actually improve tunability in some fashion, but if someone used the wrong formulation, it might get sticky with time and cause a friction problem, a break loose problem. Kind of like WD-40 in action centers, that frees them up initially, then becomes gummy with time. It's a hypothesis that fits the facts, anyway. Removing a couple pins and examining them and the hole (to the extent that is possible) might yield some evidence (something gummy on the surface of the pins, for instance).

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------

Later today I'll be seeing a relatively new Steinway D (2 years old) that I've tuned a number of times.  It has had extremely tight (to my sense) pins, some with the tendency to snap. I'll take some measurements and observe what I can in the context of the recent discussion.   Meanwhile, at the risk of indulging, yet again, in what might be considered speculation, I've been thinking about Ron's very practical suggestions for Isaac, below.  They get to the bottom line - what to do - in a way that my own previous post does not.    And yet (uh oh, watch out), I continue to feel compelled to try to apply the ideas he's put forward, regarding the causes of snapping (along with my insidious parsing) to the specifics of his response.  I'm not necessarily looking for answers, from Ron or anyone else. It's me being a bit like Michaelangelo (not Michelangeli)
"Every block of stone has a statue inside it and it is the task of the sculptor to discover it."
In this case, the questions are in there, I'm just trying to let them out.

I've seen this. The corrosion corresponds with the glue joint between
the pinblock laminations. .

Any speculation as to what, in the makeup of this block, caused corrosion?  

Not something I'd care to recycle.
Why?  It's flawed?  Something contaminated it?  The source of contamination is still there?

I'd consider repinning these blocks to be very ill advised,
Why?  It's speculative, of course, but what might happen?
- block failure
- inconsistant results
- return of snap
- will never 'feel' like a good block
- other?

if you have no choice, I'd epoxy the holes, redrill, and put in 3/0X2-3/8 Denro
blue. I don't much like the feel of epoxied blocks, and Ed's suggestion
of CA may work better

By 'epoxy the holes', do we mean totally filling the hole and redrilling, or allowing thin expoxy to soak into the surface wook fibers?  What's the purpose/effect of either expoxy or CA? How much of that material is left once you redrill?  Is there some combination of intent to remove contaminent or seal it in?  Can the 'feel' of the epoxied block be objectively distinguished from that of any other block?  For that matter, can we (have we, somewhere, already) objectively characterize the feel of a particular block, using a set of consistant metrics, such as: torque (clockwise, counterclockwise, static/kinetic ratio, permitted flex, etc.)

My torment is, of course, the questions I may have missed.


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David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
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Ron Nossman
11/21/2011 7:03:00 PM
On 11/21/2011 2:57 PM, Israel Stein wrote:
> So I did pull a few pins on both pianos, and found no sticky
> substances in either instrument - just lots of corrosion on the
> threads (4 or 5 separate bands all the way down to the bottom) and
> splotches of some sort of gray discoloration inside the tuning pin
> holes.
I've seen this. The corrosion corresponds with the glue joint between
the pinblock laminations. Not something I'd care to recycle.
>The tuning pins are not quite
> size 3/0 and not quite 2/0 - the mic. measurement varied between .283
> and .284. At last week's quick measurement with a t.p. gauge, the
> gauge didn't quite fit around the pins that I measured - so I assumed
> they were 3/0. The length is 2 3/8, they are plated, and the threads
> appear to be rolled.
They could be 7.2mm Klinke, but I don't know how Klinke form their threads.
>Oh yes, no relationship between torque and
> "snappyness"....
No, there isn't any relationship that could be considered diagnostic.
I'd consider repinning these blocks to be very ill advised, but if you
have no choice, I'd epoxy the holes, redrill, and put in 3/0X2-3/8 Denro
blue. I don't much like the feel of epoxied blocks, and Ed's suggestion
of CA may work better, but I'd use the Denros in either case. Or perhaps
you could put it off for eight years as "in progress".
Ron N

It might be interesting to experiment with a thin coat of CA in the hole, and with rosin on the pin. The CA would seal the surface (at least to some extent) and the rosin might make for a better feel than pure CA, which is tunable but not ideal.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
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Fred and Ron,

First of all, thanks for the advice. I won't be working on this piano until the summer, but I will test some of the advice (including this) on a piano that I have in my private shop right now - a Steinway M. This is a piano that I have been tuning for about 10 years now - and I suspect I will be (after the restringing) until I either retire or they bury me. So I will have plenty opportunity for follow-up - and will be the one to put up with any afteraffects of some experimentation. I have spent the past few days acquiring all of the tools and materials recommended (that I didn't already have), and by the time I get to the SFSU pianos (well - one of them, the other technician here will string the other one) should have some empirical data to go on...

Thanks, everyone, for the advice and suggestions.

-------------------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
A-Major Piano Services
Albany, CA 94706
510-558-0777
custos3@comcast.net

-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-22-2011 11:58
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

It might be interesting to experiment with a thin coat of CA in the hole, and with rosin on the pin. The CA would seal the surface (at least to some extent) and the rosin might make for a better feel than pure CA, which is tunable but not ideal.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------

Didn't someone try Protek on a jumpy block with good results a while back? Might be worth a try if you're replacing the block anyway.
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Regards,

Jon Page

Israel,

If you're doing this as a test piano, I would ask you to also test a tube of Gorilla brand CA glue. In two simple tests I found it to have excellent working qualities, because it seems to harden with a bit more sheer resistance than standard CA. In a test of a single oversized hole in a Bolduc pin block, coating the hole with Gorilla CA gave good torque on a Denro blue pin. 

When sizing a hole in the pin block with CA or epoxy, it would be best to just size the top 3/4 inch with the CA.

-------------------------------------------
Ed Sutton
Editor
Piano Technicians Journal
ed440@mindspring.com
704-536-7926

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Original Message:
Sent: 11-22-2011 15:38
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

Fred and Ron,

First of all, thanks for the advice. I won't be working on this piano until the summer, but I will test some of the advice (including this) on a piano that I have in my private shop right now - a Steinway M. This is a piano that I have been tuning for about 10 years now - and I suspect I will be (after the restringing) until I either retire or they bury me. So I will have plenty opportunity for follow-up - and will be the one to put up with any afteraffects of some experimentation. I have spent the past few days acquiring all of the tools and materials recommended (that I didn't already have), and by the time I get to the SFSU pianos (well - one of them, the other technician here will string the other one) should have some empirical data to go on...

Thanks, everyone, for the advice and suggestions.

-------------------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
A-Major Piano Services
Albany, CA 94706
510-558-0777
custos3@comcast.net

-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-22-2011 11:58
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

It might be interesting to experiment with a thin coat of CA in the hole, and with rosin on the pin. The CA would seal the surface (at least to some extent) and the rosin might make for a better feel than pure CA, which is tunable but not ideal.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------

Hi-

For what is worth I can offer a likely explanation from personal experience learned the hard way.  One of my very first restringing jobs from ancient history I still wrestle with now due to this problem, and it was my own fault.  At the time I did not understanding the importance of removing tuning pins quickly with a high torque drill, and didn't have one anyway.  I painstakingly removed each pin slowly by hand which ended up burnishing/burning the wood around the holes.  This was a Steinway with original block. The piano has been a bear to tune ever since, but finally now after more than 25 years it's starting to get easier.  I tried moving the pins back and forth many times and it didn't help very much.  In this case at least it wasn't about pins riding against the plate.  I'm sure we have all our dumb stories, and that is mine. 

true confessions,

Dennis

-------------------------------------------
Dennis Johnson, R.P.T.
St. Olaf College
Music Dept.
Northfield, MN 55337
sta2ned@stolaf.edu
(507) 786-3587
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Original Message:
Sent: 11-17-2011 22:17
From: Israel Stein
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

Fred,

I would concede all your points if we were dealing with just an ordinary case of snappy pins - maybe a handful, or maybe even several dozen, of varying degrees of "snappiness". But I don't know how many times I have written that this is something that I have never seen before - just about every pin on both pianos has a severe case of the "snappies". I can't see where the conditions that you describe below would afflict two pianos of widely differing vintages to such an extreme degree. The only explanation that I find reasonable is that it some sort of problem that was introduced to every pin - either a contaminant, or poor plate installation with respect to the pinblock which would cause just about every pin to rub on the plate. Though I have my doubts on this last one - how likely is it for two pianos of widely different vintages both having this plate installation problem to end up in the same teaching studio? But this is still more likely, I think,  than the sort of conditions you speak of below afflicting just about every pin on two different pianos to such a degree... There is another explanation that I received privately that makes sense to me - but the person who sent it to me should post it, if he wishes...

In any case, I checking out these pianos again on Monday, armed with all the information provided in this thread - and I'll share my findings then.

-------------------------------------------
Israel Stein RPT
A-Major Piano Services
Albany, CA 94706
510-558-0777
custos3@comcast.net

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Original Message:
Sent: 11-17-2011 10:33
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Those "snappy" tuning pins....

Israel,
It isn't necessarily contamination. I have a B that a colleague of mine restrung just before I got here. He did his standard work (and he is very conscientious), drilling out all holes for 4/0 pins. Some are snappy. In fact, he wrote a letter to Don Galt (am I remembering his name right? 1980 or so) when he was editor of the PTJ on the subject, asking for advice on that situation, as it came up often for him. (I think part of it was his desire for higher torque than necessary, so his hole size was a bit on the small side).
In this particular case (the one here at UNM I still deal with) it was a 20 year old piano that nobody had doped - nobody has doped any piano's pinblock here. Fortunately it is only a few pins, and I am thinking I might try CA on them, after 25 years of making do.
But sometimes snappiness just comes up out of nowhere. There was an upright at the Sauter factory while I was there that had the problem. It was brought to the attention of the Baumeister, who checked it out. He tried moving pins a lot (lower pitch a whole step or so and back up, rapidly a few times) with no improvement. He did a torque test, consulted with the stringing department (whoever had drilled the holes). Bottom line, no explanation, and the piano was to be junked. One piano out of hundreds - it was not a unique occurrence, as was clear from the conversation, but pretty rare.

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Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
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