CAUT

  • 1.  Breaking agraffes

    Posted 07-15-2012 17:47
    This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: In the Shop and CAUT .
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    I'm finding myself hip deep in a swamp full of alligators and am looking for some insight and advice.
    I am overhauling one of the schools S&S M's(1967). New pinblock,re-cut and re-pinned bridges, repaired soundboard, blah, blah.
    On this particular piano I planned to replace the agraffes, new set  ordered from Steinway.
     
    Taking the old ones out was no problem other than breaking 2, but I have dealt with this a jillion times, so no biggie.

    Saturday I started to install the new set of agraffes and discovered that I either ordered the wrong size or they sent the wrong size. School will be beginning again in about 6 weeks and I can't chance waiting for half of that waiting to get the right parts, so I made the decision to clean up the old set and re-install.

    But, to my horror and amazement, about a dozen or so broke as I was putting them back in. Most broke under light hand pressure. No forcing or over-torque-ing. Nothing is crossthreaded.

    After fixing the mess, I began stringing and not far along another strung agraffe popped.
     
    I have encountered broken agraffes lots of times and have repaired using both new replacements and used, but have never had  a run of breaking ones such as this..

    Anyone care to venture a guess as to what the heck is happening here?

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    Paul E. Dempsey, RPT
    Piano Technician Senior
    Marshall University
    Music Department
    1 John Marshall Dr.
    Huntington, WV 25701
    (304) 617-1149
    dempsey@marshall.edu
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  • 2.  RE:Breaking agraffes

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-16-2012 11:22
    Hi Paul,  First of all there are only 2 different sizes of agraffes for Steinways that I am aware of--I usually measure the thread pitch with a thread gauge and then the diameter of the threaded area is a snap to measure--it's either the small one or the large one. I am not going to address WHY YOU HAVE a rash of them breaking, other than to say that old Steinway agraffes are notorious for breaking (on occasion) with no rhyme or reason (for me it has only happened twice--right in the mid-range--out of the blue. Anyway, I personally would just call Pianotek immediately and  have them send IMMEDIATELY the correct ones that you need (OR HAVE THEM SHIP ONE OF EACH if you want-then you will always have an extra! I have been using their agraffes and am convinced they are excellent.) Or call Steinway if you want--and see if they can expedite. In other words REPLACE AGRAFFES WITH NEW ONES ASAP! Figure out why later--but just know that it's not YOU!

    Hope this helps, Kevin Fortenberry, RPT

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    Kevin Fortenberry
    Registered Piano Technician
    Lubbock TX
    806-778-3962
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  • 3.  RE:Breaking agraffes

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-16-2012 11:25
    Paul, you might also want to order plenty of height shims while you are ordering-if you are not stocked up.

    Kevin

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    Kevin Fortenberry
    Registered Piano Technician
    Lubbock TX
    806-778-3962
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  • 4.  RE:Breaking agraffes

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-17-2012 15:12
    The shims sold for agraffes are pretty thick, brass in 0.012" and 0.020" from Pianotek. Schaff says theirs are 0.010". They don't always get you close enough to finish the alignment by tightening a little more or a little less. It is possible to machine a bit of brass from the bottom surface of the agraffe, the surface that contacts the plate, to make a smaller difference. Someone made a tool for the purpose a few years back, but I don't remember who, or have a source. Maybe someone else has that info. Someone from our chapter made his own, thinner shim washers, using aluminum cans. He made them by punching them out with arch punches. They were a little thinner than the brass ones, and I think they would squeeze a little more.

    I think it is quite likely that many of the agraffes that break do so because the guy in the factory over stressed them when installing, turned them nearly 180 degrees.

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    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
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  • 5.  RE:Breaking agraffes

    Posted 07-17-2012 19:19
    I use in the field what's called a Straight Shank Short Body Counterbore for removing brass from the bottom.

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    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    tune-repair@allegiance.tv



  • 6.  RE:Breaking agraffes

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-16-2012 11:38
    Hi Paul, Just looking back at my post and I did intend to say SET of agraffes, not just one agraffe. Lol, as everyone says around here. Kevin

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    Kevin Fortenberry
    Registered Piano Technician
    Lubbock TX
    806-778-3962
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  • 7.  RE:Breaking agraffes

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-16-2012 12:20
    The brass has crystalized -- as it does eventually.   They will continue to break -- just like old plastic elbows.  Only correct solution is to install new agraffes.

    On the wildly experimental side, you could attempt to use a torch to re-anneal the existing agraffes.  It'd be kind of a crapshoot, though.
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    Keith Akins
    Akins Pianocraft
    Menominee MI
    906-863-7387
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  • 8.  RE:Breaking agraffes

    Posted 07-17-2012 11:39
    In the Shop responses to this question, condensed:

    On 7/15/2012 4:46 PM, Paul Dempsey wrote:

    > Saturday I started to install the new set of agraffes and discovered

    > that I either ordered the wrong size or they sent the wrong size.

    > School will be beginning again in about 6 weeks and I can't chance

    > waiting for half of that waiting to get the right parts, so I made

    > the decision to clean up the old set and re-install.

    There's your problem. If two broke getting them out, the set is trash.

    More breaking during and after installation just proved that.

    You've gotten good advice here, and you're out of options now. Measure

    the stud diameter of the existing set and order replacements from

    Pianotek (who can ship them to you on a reasonable schedule and they'll

    be of good quality), buying four or five extra of monochord, bichord,

    and trichords. Take off the strings, retap the threads to clean them up,

    and lubricate them. Quickly spin in agraffes, trying each in a different

    hole until it snugs up at around 45 degrees from aligned. That's what

    the extra agraffes are for. You'll find you can fill the set without

    modifying or shimming any. Then align everything, and restring.

    Next time: NEVER reuse the original Steinway agraffes.

    Ron N

    I worked on a 1960s S&S in which the agraffe holes in the plate were not threaded deep enough. Look at the tips of the old agraffes. The threads would be mashed flat from being forced into the holes. If this is so, you must tap the threads deeper before putting in new agaffes.

    Do as Ron said. New agraffes  are a must.

    And as Bill Monroe said, use the tap to clean the holes before installing new agraffes, always.

    Ed S



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    Ed Sutton
    Editor
    Piano Technicians Journal
    ed440@me.com
    704-536-7926

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