CAUT

Hello CAUTS,

I just started as the piano technician (on contract) for Liberty University.  They are wanting me to make suggestions that I can bid as proposed budget amendments for improving their piano inventory, since they have only been tuning the pianos for quite awhile now.  I'll be suggesting certain pianos get a full grand regulation, etc.  Here's my question:

I have replaced many individual strings, but have never done an entire re-stringing job.

1. Do you always replace the tuning pins when re-string an entire piano, assuming the pin block is fine?
2. How much time should I expect it to take?  Please give me a time estimate for someone that has gotten good at restringing.  I want to bid this fairly, even though it will probably take me a bit longer for my first big re-stringing job.
3. The piano in question is a Kawai KG-6C.  Would I simply call Mapes to get a quote for a whole set of the bass strings?  Or do you have a better suggestion?
4.  If I have 1 of each size of piano wire on hand from Schaff (on their "Schaff Dispensing Reels), will that be enough to re-string a whole piano, or will I need more than 1 coil of each size?  Or do you recommend a certain brand or type of wire?
5.  Do you have a ballpark amount to say the parts will cost when bidding a job like this?  What would my approximate cost be for the piano wire, bass strings, and tuning pins if necessary.

Thanks for your help!

-------------------------------------------
David Pritchard
Forest VA
308-635-0500
-------------------------------------------

Hi David!

Congrats on your first restringing job!  It's a lot more work than just replacing wire!  I'll try to answer your questions on a university stand point.

They're looking for the cheapest fix when looking at their checkbook, but you have to be very cautious when figuring out your bid for the job: I'll answer #1-4 and then add (as many others will) at the end.

#1: I always replace the tuning pins AND bridge pins on a restringing job. This entails cleaning or reaming out the tuning pin holes and resurfacing the bridges, even just a little to rid most of the string grooves, then re-dag.  Sometimes re-notching is needed where the bridge pins go. I like to epoxy the bridge pins also; make sure any bridge splits are also repaired. I also replace all underfelts and string braids!  The old ones are perhaps ripped up, and most likely dirty. It also just makes the job more handsome. I also replace ALL the agraffes, and in the capo section, resurface the bottom of the bar, and then check the front pressure bars too while you're at it.  Clean and polish the duplex bars, and or replace if really bad.

#2: I'm not the fastest restringer in the world by any means, but after everything is ready to go, 20 hours is what I plan on. (again, I'm slow..the restringer at the Steinway factory has a record of 3 in a day!!).  Double my estimate for your first time!.  I'm very slow and deliberate in restringing. I check and recheck more than most do.  Do NOT bring each string up to anything close to pitch as your stringing!  Just enough to set the string positions and enough tension to hold the coils taught. when all is said and done, then carefully chip tune it up and tune and tune a bunch!

#3: You can call Mapes. they might indeed have that scale on hand. Arledge is also very good. They will ask you to measure from hitch pin to front bridge pin and then from hitch pin to center of agraffes for all strings.  I love their products, but more costly than Mapes.

#4:  I use Schaff "Roslau" wire for most all my stringing jobs at UNL.  #13 (your probable top section wire) just one spool will do for that and probably down to about the size 16 or even 18 wire.  You might have 2 spools for the bigger sizes.  You're going to "goof" a few times along the way and have to restring a few again. It's time to just have a nice supply of several as you're going to be doing many more, we hope!

#5: Estimate about $500-600 in supplies since you're starting from scratch to get going, IF you have all the restringing tools. REMEMBER: You HAVE to support the pinblock from underneith with a firm support jack when driving in the new pins!!!  Never forget to do that! DAMHIK!!!


I've only restrung about 15 grands in my career, so let's hear the "real" restringers to add to this or correct me where I've gone astray!  I love to learn more tricks!

You can string from top to bottom, or bottom of the tenor break to the top, followed by the bass strings last.  With bass strings I always start at A-0 since you need the room to make nice coils. 

Good Luck, David!



-------------------------------------------
Paul T. Williams RPT
Piano Technician
University of Nebraska
Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
pwilliams4@unl.edu
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 08-27-2013 13:45
From: David Pritchard
Subject: Re-stringing a piano

Hello CAUTS,

I just started as the piano technician (on contract) for Liberty University.  They are wanting me to make suggestions that I can bid as proposed budget amendments for improving their piano inventory, since they have only been tuning the pianos for quite awhile now.  I'll be suggesting certain pianos get a full grand regulation, etc.  Here's my question:

I have replaced many individual strings, but have never done an entire re-stringing job.

1. Do you always replace the tuning pins when re-string an entire piano, assuming the pin block is fine?
2. How much time should I expect it to take?  Please give me a time estimate for someone that has gotten good at restringing.  I want to bid this fairly, even though it will probably take me a bit longer for my first big re-stringing job.
3. The piano in question is a Kawai KG-6C.  Would I simply call Mapes to get a quote for a whole set of the bass strings?  Or do you have a better suggestion?
4.  If I have 1 of each size of piano wire on hand from Schaff (on their "Schaff Dispensing Reels), will that be enough to re-string a whole piano, or will I need more than 1 coil of each size?  Or do you recommend a certain brand or type of wire?
5.  Do you have a ballpark amount to say the parts will cost when bidding a job like this?  What would my approximate cost be for the piano wire, bass strings, and tuning pins if necessary.

Thanks for your help!

-------------------------------------------
David Pritchard
Forest VA
308-635-0500
-------------------------------------------

David: {great name by the way!}

I am retired from CAUT work but I remember it well!  You'll learn the technical ropes as you go but sometimes the budget, expectations, etc. ropes are more difficult to grasp.

One thing I would point out - no matter what you do to a piano - if you take it out of service for even a short time, it will be perceived that it has been rebuilt.  Yes, that includes the people that you told you were just restringing it.  If it has been out of the room for a brief time they will say "it's just been completely rebuilt!" 

I recently did some post-retirement work at a school and the former technician there didn't make that distinction.  There was nothing wrong with the work he had done, he just didn't meet the expectations.  When they told me that one piano had been "rebuilt" [and it wasn't] I asked how much it had cost.  They said $5,000.  I told them that the previous person had done at least $5,000 worth of work but it wasn't completely rebuilt.  They were expecting full rebuild [it had left the building] but they got new strings, hammers & some regulation. 

Always make sure - as much as it is humanly possible - that their expectations match what you are proposing.  We frequently do our reputations much harm by doing what is obvious to us without nailing down their expectations.  If they can't afford what they really need, that's not your problem.  If you do what they can afford but it's not what the piano really needs, it will be your problem.

dave

-------------------------------------------
David Porritt
Caddo Mills TX
903-269-3570
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 08-27-2013 13:45
From: David Pritchard
Subject: Re-stringing a piano

Hello CAUTS,

I just started as the piano technician (on contract) for Liberty University.  They are wanting me to make suggestions that I can bid as proposed budget amendments for improving their piano inventory, since they have only been tuning the pianos for quite awhile now.  I'll be suggesting certain pianos get a full grand regulation, etc.  Here's my question:

I have replaced many individual strings, but have never done an entire re-stringing job.

1. Do you always replace the tuning pins when re-string an entire piano, assuming the pin block is fine?
2. How much time should I expect it to take?  Please give me a time estimate for someone that has gotten good at restringing.  I want to bid this fairly, even though it will probably take me a bit longer for my first big re-stringing job.
3. The piano in question is a Kawai KG-6C.  Would I simply call Mapes to get a quote for a whole set of the bass strings?  Or do you have a better suggestion?
4.  If I have 1 of each size of piano wire on hand from Schaff (on their "Schaff Dispensing Reels), will that be enough to re-string a whole piano, or will I need more than 1 coil of each size?  Or do you recommend a certain brand or type of wire?
5.  Do you have a ballpark amount to say the parts will cost when bidding a job like this?  What would my approximate cost be for the piano wire, bass strings, and tuning pins if necessary.

Thanks for your help!

-------------------------------------------
David Pritchard
Forest VA
308-635-0500
-------------------------------------------

Beautiful reminder, Dave! Thanks!

Yes!  Any work done to a piano in the customer's eyes means "rebuilt". Ha!  And we've seen some doozys too on "rebuilds" too...like just spray painting the plate where you can see where they taped off the strings; to a small section restrung saying "it was totally "re-dun"! or just new dampers, etc. It goes on and on. The jokers are too many to count out there.

Now, David P:  Are they keeping the action the same?  There's a whole new world!!  Restringing might not be the "fix-all" at ALL! 

Find out exactly what they are expecting from this piano. Is it a performance piano, a prof studio, or just a practice room?.  Does it really need restringing or just bass strings? Has it more than 6 or 7 string replacements (usually in the capo section)? Does it break strings on a regular basis? Has it not really had a full regulation service at all, or at least in the past 5 years?  What else are they expecting? 

Clear all air before diving in just because you want to do your first restringing project!  You're about to solidify a nice position, hopefully, with this university, so you have to go gingerly as at all times, are they looking at their checkbooks!

On another thought: grab a cheap grand piano for $2K, restring it to learn.  if you only get $2K out of selling it, then a great lesson learned for free!  I did that with a 1919  Chickering 1/4-grand when I was learning.  I counted NO hours after a while tearing it down, replacing the action, restringing, etc.  I bought it for $1,500 and sold it for $4K.  Time invested equals a negative balance, but the learning curve= $priceless!! (I learned to never do that again!!)

Lots of questions, indeed! They need to be asked before touching a project.

I guess I should have asked this first, but at least you know what to expect for a restringing project.

Let us know what happens next!

Best of luck,
Paul




-------------------------------------------
Paul T. Williams RPT
Piano Technician
University of Nebraska
Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
pwilliams4@unl.edu
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 08-27-2013 16:25
From: David Porritt
Subject: Re-stringing a piano

David: {great name by the way!}

I am retired from CAUT work but I remember it well!  You'll learn the technical ropes as you go but sometimes the budget, expectations, etc. ropes are more difficult to grasp.

One thing I would point out - no matter what you do to a piano - if you take it out of service for even a short time, it will be perceived that it has been rebuilt.  Yes, that includes the people that you told you were just restringing it.  If it has been out of the room for a brief time they will say "it's just been completely rebuilt!" 

I recently did some post-retirement work at a school and the former technician there didn't make that distinction.  There was nothing wrong with the work he had done, he just didn't meet the expectations.  When they told me that one piano had been "rebuilt" [and it wasn't] I asked how much it had cost.  They said $5,000.  I told them that the previous person had done at least $5,000 worth of work but it wasn't completely rebuilt.  They were expecting full rebuild [it had left the building] but they got new strings, hammers & some regulation. 

Always make sure - as much as it is humanly possible - that their expectations match what you are proposing.  We frequently do our reputations much harm by doing what is obvious to us without nailing down their expectations.  If they can't afford what they really need, that's not your problem.  If you do what they can afford but it's not what the piano really needs, it will be your problem.

dave

-------------------------------------------
David Porritt
Caddo Mills TX
903-269-3570
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 08-27-2013 13:45
From: David Pritchard
Subject: Re-stringing a piano

Hello CAUTS,

I just started as the piano technician (on contract) for Liberty University.  They are wanting me to make suggestions that I can bid as proposed budget amendments for improving their piano inventory, since they have only been tuning the pianos for quite awhile now.  I'll be suggesting certain pianos get a full grand regulation, etc.  Here's my question:

I have replaced many individual strings, but have never done an entire re-stringing job.

1. Do you always replace the tuning pins when re-string an entire piano, assuming the pin block is fine?
2. How much time should I expect it to take?  Please give me a time estimate for someone that has gotten good at restringing.  I want to bid this fairly, even though it will probably take me a bit longer for my first big re-stringing job.
3. The piano in question is a Kawai KG-6C.  Would I simply call Mapes to get a quote for a whole set of the bass strings?  Or do you have a better suggestion?
4.  If I have 1 of each size of piano wire on hand from Schaff (on their "Schaff Dispensing Reels), will that be enough to re-string a whole piano, or will I need more than 1 coil of each size?  Or do you recommend a certain brand or type of wire?
5.  Do you have a ballpark amount to say the parts will cost when bidding a job like this?  What would my approximate cost be for the piano wire, bass strings, and tuning pins if necessary.

Thanks for your help!

-------------------------------------------
David Pritchard
Forest VA
308-635-0500
-------------------------------------------

I should have added to my last post.  I think the most important thing in any relationship is "expectations" and that includes friends, spouses, kids, employers, employees...whatever.  When expectations are misunderstood bad things happen.

dp

-------------------------------------------
David Porritt
Caddo Mills TX
903-269-3570
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 08-27-2013 16:47
From: Paul Williams
Subject: Re-stringing a piano

Beautiful reminder, Dave! Thanks!

Yes!  Any work done to a piano in the customer's eyes means "rebuilt". Ha!  And we've seen some doozys too on "rebuilds" too...like just spray painting the plate where you can see where they taped off the strings; to a small section restrung saying "it was totally "re-dun"! or just new dampers, etc. It goes on and on. The jokers are too many to count out there.

Now, David P:  Are they keeping the action the same?  There's a whole new world!!  Restringing might not be the "fix-all" at ALL! 

Find out exactly what they are expecting from this piano. Is it a performance piano, a prof studio, or just a practice room?.  Does it really need restringing or just bass strings? Has it more than 6 or 7 string replacements (usually in the capo section)? Does it break strings on a regular basis? Has it not really had a full regulation service at all, or at least in the past 5 years?  What else are they expecting? 

Clear all air before diving in just because you want to do your first restringing project!  You're about to solidify a nice position, hopefully, with this university, so you have to go gingerly as at all times, are they looking at their checkbooks!

On another thought: grab a cheap grand piano for $2K, restring it to learn.  if you only get $2K out of selling it, then a great lesson learned for free!  I did that with a 1919  Chickering 1/4-grand when I was learning.  I counted NO hours after a while tearing it down, replacing the action, restringing, etc.  I bought it for $1,500 and sold it for $4K.  Time invested equals a negative balance, but the learning curve= $priceless!! (I learned to never do that again!!)

Lots of questions, indeed! They need to be asked before touching a project.

I guess I should have asked this first, but at least you know what to expect for a restringing project.

Let us know what happens next!

Best of luck,
Paul




-------------------------------------------
Paul T. Williams RPT
Piano Technician
University of Nebraska
Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
pwilliams4@unl.edu
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 08-27-2013 16:25
From: David Porritt
Subject: Re-stringing a piano

David: {great name by the way!}

I am retired from CAUT work but I remember it well!  You'll learn the technical ropes as you go but sometimes the budget, expectations, etc. ropes are more difficult to grasp.

One thing I would point out - no matter what you do to a piano - if you take it out of service for even a short time, it will be perceived that it has been rebuilt.  Yes, that includes the people that you told you were just restringing it.  If it has been out of the room for a brief time they will say "it's just been completely rebuilt!" 

I recently did some post-retirement work at a school and the former technician there didn't make that distinction.  There was nothing wrong with the work he had done, he just didn't meet the expectations.  When they told me that one piano had been "rebuilt" [and it wasn't] I asked how much it had cost.  They said $5,000.  I told them that the previous person had done at least $5,000 worth of work but it wasn't completely rebuilt.  They were expecting full rebuild [it had left the building] but they got new strings, hammers & some regulation. 

Always make sure - as much as it is humanly possible - that their expectations match what you are proposing.  We frequently do our reputations much harm by doing what is obvious to us without nailing down their expectations.  If they can't afford what they really need, that's not your problem.  If you do what they can afford but it's not what the piano really needs, it will be your problem.

dave

-------------------------------------------
David Porritt
Caddo Mills TX
903-269-3570
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 08-27-2013 13:45
From: David Pritchard
Subject: Re-stringing a piano

Hello CAUTS,

I just started as the piano technician (on contract) for Liberty University.  They are wanting me to make suggestions that I can bid as proposed budget amendments for improving their piano inventory, since they have only been tuning the pianos for quite awhile now.  I'll be suggesting certain pianos get a full grand regulation, etc.  Here's my question:

I have replaced many individual strings, but have never done an entire re-stringing job.

1. Do you always replace the tuning pins when re-string an entire piano, assuming the pin block is fine?
2. How much time should I expect it to take?  Please give me a time estimate for someone that has gotten good at restringing.  I want to bid this fairly, even though it will probably take me a bit longer for my first big re-stringing job.
3. The piano in question is a Kawai KG-6C.  Would I simply call Mapes to get a quote for a whole set of the bass strings?  Or do you have a better suggestion?
4.  If I have 1 of each size of piano wire on hand from Schaff (on their "Schaff Dispensing Reels), will that be enough to re-string a whole piano, or will I need more than 1 coil of each size?  Or do you recommend a certain brand or type of wire?
5.  Do you have a ballpark amount to say the parts will cost when bidding a job like this?  What would my approximate cost be for the piano wire, bass strings, and tuning pins if necessary.

Thanks for your help!

-------------------------------------------
David Pritchard
Forest VA
308-635-0500
-------------------------------------------

Yup! Hindsight can not be corrected with even the best of glasses!  Ooops! I shouldn't have done that!  Or.. I should have done THAT!  Too late.

Great points!

-------------------------------------------
Paul T. Williams RPT
Piano Technician
University of Nebraska
Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
pwilliams4@unl.edu
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 08-27-2013 17:12
From: David Porritt
Subject: Re-stringing a piano

I should have added to my last post.  I think the most important thing in any relationship is "expectations" and that includes friends, spouses, kids, employers, employees...whatever.  When expectations are misunderstood bad things happen.

dp

-------------------------------------------
David Porritt
Caddo Mills TX
903-269-3570
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 08-27-2013 16:47
From: Paul Williams
Subject: Re-stringing a piano

Beautiful reminder, Dave! Thanks!

Yes!  Any work done to a piano in the customer's eyes means "rebuilt". Ha!  And we've seen some doozys too on "rebuilds" too...like just spray painting the plate where you can see where they taped off the strings; to a small section restrung saying "it was totally "re-dun"! or just new dampers, etc. It goes on and on. The jokers are too many to count out there.

Now, David P:  Are they keeping the action the same?  There's a whole new world!!  Restringing might not be the "fix-all" at ALL! 

Find out exactly what they are expecting from this piano. Is it a performance piano, a prof studio, or just a practice room?.  Does it really need restringing or just bass strings? Has it more than 6 or 7 string replacements (usually in the capo section)? Does it break strings on a regular basis? Has it not really had a full regulation service at all, or at least in the past 5 years?  What else are they expecting? 

Clear all air before diving in just because you want to do your first restringing project!  You're about to solidify a nice position, hopefully, with this university, so you have to go gingerly as at all times, are they looking at their checkbooks!

On another thought: grab a cheap grand piano for $2K, restring it to learn.  if you only get $2K out of selling it, then a great lesson learned for free!  I did that with a 1919  Chickering 1/4-grand when I was learning.  I counted NO hours after a while tearing it down, replacing the action, restringing, etc.  I bought it for $1,500 and sold it for $4K.  Time invested equals a negative balance, but the learning curve= $priceless!! (I learned to never do that again!!)

Lots of questions, indeed! They need to be asked before touching a project.

I guess I should have asked this first, but at least you know what to expect for a restringing project.

Let us know what happens next!

Best of luck,
Paul




-------------------------------------------
Paul T. Williams RPT
Piano Technician
University of Nebraska
Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
pwilliams4@unl.edu
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 08-27-2013 16:25
From: David Porritt
Subject: Re-stringing a piano

David: {great name by the way!}

I am retired from CAUT work but I remember it well!  You'll learn the technical ropes as you go but sometimes the budget, expectations, etc. ropes are more difficult to grasp.

One thing I would point out - no matter what you do to a piano - if you take it out of service for even a short time, it will be perceived that it has been rebuilt.  Yes, that includes the people that you told you were just restringing it.  If it has been out of the room for a brief time they will say "it's just been completely rebuilt!" 

I recently did some post-retirement work at a school and the former technician there didn't make that distinction.  There was nothing wrong with the work he had done, he just didn't meet the expectations.  When they told me that one piano had been "rebuilt" [and it wasn't] I asked how much it had cost.  They said $5,000.  I told them that the previous person had done at least $5,000 worth of work but it wasn't completely rebuilt.  They were expecting full rebuild [it had left the building] but they got new strings, hammers & some regulation. 

Always make sure - as much as it is humanly possible - that their expectations match what you are proposing.  We frequently do our reputations much harm by doing what is obvious to us without nailing down their expectations.  If they can't afford what they really need, that's not your problem.  If you do what they can afford but it's not what the piano really needs, it will be your problem.

dave

-------------------------------------------
David Porritt
Caddo Mills TX
903-269-3570
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 08-27-2013 13:45
From: David Pritchard
Subject: Re-stringing a piano

Hello CAUTS,

I just started as the piano technician (on contract) for Liberty University.  They are wanting me to make suggestions that I can bid as proposed budget amendments for improving their piano inventory, since they have only been tuning the pianos for quite awhile now.  I'll be suggesting certain pianos get a full grand regulation, etc.  Here's my question:

I have replaced many individual strings, but have never done an entire re-stringing job.

1. Do you always replace the tuning pins when re-string an entire piano, assuming the pin block is fine?
2. How much time should I expect it to take?  Please give me a time estimate for someone that has gotten good at restringing.  I want to bid this fairly, even though it will probably take me a bit longer for my first big re-stringing job.
3. The piano in question is a Kawai KG-6C.  Would I simply call Mapes to get a quote for a whole set of the bass strings?  Or do you have a better suggestion?
4.  If I have 1 of each size of piano wire on hand from Schaff (on their "Schaff Dispensing Reels), will that be enough to re-string a whole piano, or will I need more than 1 coil of each size?  Or do you recommend a certain brand or type of wire?
5.  Do you have a ballpark amount to say the parts will cost when bidding a job like this?  What would my approximate cost be for the piano wire, bass strings, and tuning pins if necessary.

Thanks for your help!

-------------------------------------------
David Pritchard
Forest VA
308-635-0500
-------------------------------------------

Hi David,
I have done many restringing jobs with the same tuning pins. To me, that just makes sense, assuming the pins are tight enough. There are a few techniques that make this faster, including setting up all the tuning pins with the beckets facing the same way before installing the new strings (I put them parallel to the stretcher), and using sharpened needlenose pliers to remove the becket from the dummy pin you make the coil on. In general, it takes about the same amount of time as using new pins.

Time? I'd guess about 20 hours, starting at tear down (remove dampers, strings, underfelts, clean everything), through prep (usually remove top two sections of bridge pins, resurface that part of the bridge, replace with new pins with CA; dress capo; replace understring felts), installation of strings, cleaning up coils and spacing unisons in capo area, chipping to pitch, chipping above pitch, putting positive bends in the wires at duplex/bridge/capo, level strings, get to fairly stable tune. I've left out a few details, but you should get the idea.

I like to get bass strings from Arledge. His bichord unisons tend to be more reliable, and a bad bichord match is simply not worth saving a little money, let alone several (which happens). Cost is about $300, but depends on size of piano and how many bass strings.

You are best off to have one pound coils of each size of wire you need, and run it from film canisters (Schaff sells them as wire canisters). You feed the middle of the coil out the hole in the canister. You can set the canister on a board with a nail (there is a small hole on the bottom of the canister that will sit on a nail) to feed the wire out conveniently. You can also feed it the same way from the metal clamps, but it is quite a bit slower. Those brake dispensers are slow and unreliable in my experience. I guess a full set of 1# coils and canisters would set you back $150 or so. It should be enough to restring a couple pianos - more of some sizes is used than others, with the #16 - #18 usually being the most. So if you wanted to avoid investing too much, you could just get larger coils of the larger sizes.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
"When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 08-27-2013 13:45
From: David Pritchard
Subject: Re-stringing a piano

Hello CAUTS,

I just started as the piano technician (on contract) for Liberty University.  They are wanting me to make suggestions that I can bid as proposed budget amendments for improving their piano inventory, since they have only been tuning the pianos for quite awhile now.  I'll be suggesting certain pianos get a full grand regulation, etc.  Here's my question:

I have replaced many individual strings, but have never done an entire re-stringing job.

1. Do you always replace the tuning pins when re-string an entire piano, assuming the pin block is fine?
2. How much time should I expect it to take?  Please give me a time estimate for someone that has gotten good at restringing.  I want to bid this fairly, even though it will probably take me a bit longer for my first big re-stringing job.
3. The piano in question is a Kawai KG-6C.  Would I simply call Mapes to get a quote for a whole set of the bass strings?  Or do you have a better suggestion?
4.  If I have 1 of each size of piano wire on hand from Schaff (on their "Schaff Dispensing Reels), will that be enough to re-string a whole piano, or will I need more than 1 coil of each size?  Or do you recommend a certain brand or type of wire?
5.  Do you have a ballpark amount to say the parts will cost when bidding a job like this?  What would my approximate cost be for the piano wire, bass strings, and tuning pins if necessary.

Thanks for your help!

-------------------------------------------
David Pritchard
Forest VA
308-635-0500
-------------------------------------------

Good points, Fred.  I sadly have only done 2 pianos with existing pins. I was happy with one of them. The remaining were either with a bigger pin or a new pin block (more often).  David P, there's another thing to consider; the pin block!  Some are just too tired to take even a bigger pin.  Never go higher than a 4 in my book. I've always replace a pinblock if a 4 was needed.. I've tuned some Steinways in the past with as big as 4.5 or 5.  Way untunable.  Make sure you measure what's there right now. You're then asking for a lot of unstability issues for evermore.

See? Lots to consider. Not just slapping new strings on! :>)  Keep on learning!  (not Porritt of course, you know more than I do!) This information site is GOLD!  Use it!  My bill is in the mail Mr. Pritchard!!  ha haa!  Good Luck!

I restate! Mr. Pritchard.  Go get yourself a garage sale grand for a thousand bucks or 2 and learn.  Your education will be worth the loss on the sale of the piano.  Make sure its doable of course! You then will save 'face' on the real piano!  My best man at my wedding now 20 years ago, is Japanese and they have a saying, "Cover your ass before you cover your face!". Makes sense.

-------------------------------------------
Paul T. Williams RPT
Piano Technician
University of Nebraska
Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
pwilliams4@unl.edu
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 08-27-2013 17:17
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Re-stringing a piano

Hi David,
I have done many restringing jobs with the same tuning pins. To me, that just makes sense, assuming the pins are tight enough. There are a few techniques that make this faster, including setting up all the tuning pins with the beckets facing the same way before installing the new strings (I put them parallel to the stretcher), and using sharpened needlenose pliers to remove the becket from the dummy pin you make the coil on. In general, it takes about the same amount of time as using new pins.

Time? I'd guess about 20 hours, starting at tear down (remove dampers, strings, underfelts, clean everything), through prep (usually remove top two sections of bridge pins, resurface that part of the bridge, replace with new pins with CA; dress capo; replace understring felts), installation of strings, cleaning up coils and spacing unisons in capo area, chipping to pitch, chipping above pitch, putting positive bends in the wires at duplex/bridge/capo, level strings, get to fairly stable tune. I've left out a few details, but you should get the idea.

I like to get bass strings from Arledge. His bichord unisons tend to be more reliable, and a bad bichord match is simply not worth saving a little money, let alone several (which happens). Cost is about $300, but depends on size of piano and how many bass strings.

You are best off to have one pound coils of each size of wire you need, and run it from film canisters (Schaff sells them as wire canisters). You feed the middle of the coil out the hole in the canister. You can set the canister on a board with a nail (there is a small hole on the bottom of the canister that will sit on a nail) to feed the wire out conveniently. You can also feed it the same way from the metal clamps, but it is quite a bit slower. Those brake dispensers are slow and unreliable in my experience. I guess a full set of 1# coils and canisters would set you back $150 or so. It should be enough to restring a couple pianos - more of some sizes is used than others, with the #16 - #18 usually being the most. So if you wanted to avoid investing too much, you could just get larger coils of the larger sizes.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
"When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 08-27-2013 13:45
From: David Pritchard
Subject: Re-stringing a piano

Hello CAUTS,

I just started as the piano technician (on contract) for Liberty University.  They are wanting me to make suggestions that I can bid as proposed budget amendments for improving their piano inventory, since they have only been tuning the pianos for quite awhile now.  I'll be suggesting certain pianos get a full grand regulation, etc.  Here's my question:

I have replaced many individual strings, but have never done an entire re-stringing job.

1. Do you always replace the tuning pins when re-string an entire piano, assuming the pin block is fine?
2. How much time should I expect it to take?  Please give me a time estimate for someone that has gotten good at restringing.  I want to bid this fairly, even though it will probably take me a bit longer for my first big re-stringing job.
3. The piano in question is a Kawai KG-6C.  Would I simply call Mapes to get a quote for a whole set of the bass strings?  Or do you have a better suggestion?
4.  If I have 1 of each size of piano wire on hand from Schaff (on their "Schaff Dispensing Reels), will that be enough to re-string a whole piano, or will I need more than 1 coil of each size?  Or do you recommend a certain brand or type of wire?
5.  Do you have a ballpark amount to say the parts will cost when bidding a job like this?  What would my approximate cost be for the piano wire, bass strings, and tuning pins if necessary.

Thanks for your help!

-------------------------------------------
David Pritchard
Forest VA
308-635-0500
-------------------------------------------

Having no idea of your training or experience, i must advise caution in contracting to do something you have not done before.
PTG seminars have classes on how to restring a piano.
Other classes teach things like how to maintain tight and even coils on the tuning pins.
In the 1990s Bill Spurlock published articles on how to prepare the bridge tops for restringing.
With correct tools you can measure pin torque and make an informed decision about reusing or replacing the tuning pins.
There are appropriate tools to support the pinblock and keybed when driving new pins.
Japanese wire gauges are slightly different from America. Mapes International Gold iwire s the best match, but consult their chart for more details.
Just having the right tools, and having them organized is a significant project. 
Paul's idea that you begin with a learning piano of your own is good. This is what you would have done in a residency school. It will give you a chance to work through the problems without faculty watching and wondering what is the delay about.


-------------------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926

-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 08-27-2013 13:45
From: David Pritchard
Subject: Re-stringing a piano

Hello CAUTS,

I just started as the piano technician (on contract) for Liberty University.  They are wanting me to make suggestions that I can bid as proposed budget amendments for improving their piano inventory, since they have only been tuning the pianos for quite awhile now.  I'll be suggesting certain pianos get a full grand regulation, etc.  Here's my question:

I have replaced many individual strings, but have never done an entire re-stringing job.

1. Do you always replace the tuning pins when re-string an entire piano, assuming the pin block is fine?
2. How much time should I expect it to take?  Please give me a time estimate for someone that has gotten good at restringing.  I want to bid this fairly, even though it will probably take me a bit longer for my first big re-stringing job.
3. The piano in question is a Kawai KG-6C.  Would I simply call Mapes to get a quote for a whole set of the bass strings?  Or do you have a better suggestion?
4.  If I have 1 of each size of piano wire on hand from Schaff (on their "Schaff Dispensing Reels), will that be enough to re-string a whole piano, or will I need more than 1 coil of each size?  Or do you recommend a certain brand or type of wire?
5.  Do you have a ballpark amount to say the parts will cost when bidding a job like this?  What would my approximate cost be for the piano wire, bass strings, and tuning pins if necessary.

Thanks for your help!

-------------------------------------------
David Pritchard
Forest VA
308-635-0500
-------------------------------------------

Thanks Ed. Nice advise.

I know this man. He has been a tech for many years, so I understand his worries. He has no university setting to learn this, but is a good technicican.  It is a new world for him as why I advised him to take on a home project first. Especially if he is to approach an up and coming university of music.  It's an interesting venture for him and I wish him the best. They're all new together and will grow together.  I, for one, want this fellow to be equipped to handle the jobs of the pianos he's about to face! I thank you all for all the input you can give!

Paul




-------------------------------------------
Paul T. Williams RPT
Piano Technician
University of Nebraska
Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
pwilliams4@unl.edu
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 08-27-2013 18:40
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Re-stringing a piano

Having no idea of your training or experience, i must advise caution in contracting to do something you have not done before.
PTG seminars have classes on how to restring a piano.
Other classes teach things like how to maintain tight and even coils on the tuning pins.
In the 1990s Bill Spurlock published articles on how to prepare the bridge tops for restringing.
With correct tools you can measure pin torque and make an informed decision about reusing or replacing the tuning pins.
There are appropriate tools to support the pinblock and keybed when driving new pins.
Japanese wire gauges are slightly different from America. Mapes International Gold iwire s the best match, but consult their chart for more details.
Just having the right tools, and having them organized is a significant project. 
Paul's idea that you begin with a learning piano of your own is good. This is what you would have done in a residency school. It will give you a chance to work through the problems without faculty watching and wondering what is the delay about.


-------------------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926

-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 08-27-2013 13:45
From: David Pritchard
Subject: Re-stringing a piano

Hello CAUTS,

I just started as the piano technician (on contract) for Liberty University.  They are wanting me to make suggestions that I can bid as proposed budget amendments for improving their piano inventory, since they have only been tuning the pianos for quite awhile now.  I'll be suggesting certain pianos get a full grand regulation, etc.  Here's my question:

I have replaced many individual strings, but have never done an entire re-stringing job.

1. Do you always replace the tuning pins when re-string an entire piano, assuming the pin block is fine?
2. How much time should I expect it to take?  Please give me a time estimate for someone that has gotten good at restringing.  I want to bid this fairly, even though it will probably take me a bit longer for my first big re-stringing job.
3. The piano in question is a Kawai KG-6C.  Would I simply call Mapes to get a quote for a whole set of the bass strings?  Or do you have a better suggestion?
4.  If I have 1 of each size of piano wire on hand from Schaff (on their "Schaff Dispensing Reels), will that be enough to re-string a whole piano, or will I need more than 1 coil of each size?  Or do you recommend a certain brand or type of wire?
5.  Do you have a ballpark amount to say the parts will cost when bidding a job like this?  What would my approximate cost be for the piano wire, bass strings, and tuning pins if necessary.

Thanks for your help!

-------------------------------------------
David Pritchard
Forest VA
308-635-0500
-------------------------------------------

Restringing the workhorse piano on site.
This could be a topic for CAUT to explore, create an extended class and text.
(And a series of articles for a magazine.)

-------------------------------------------
Ed Sutton
Editor
Piano Technicians Journal
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926

-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 08-27-2013 18:58
From: Paul Williams
Subject: Re-stringing a piano

Thanks Ed. Nice advise.

I know this man. He has been a tech for many years, so I understand his worries. He has no university setting to learn this, but is a good technicican.  It is a new world for him as why I advised him to take on a home project first. Especially if he is to approach an up and coming university of music.  It's an interesting venture for him and I wish him the best. They're all new together and will grow together.  I, for one, want this fellow to be equipped to handle the jobs of the pianos he's about to face! I thank you all for all the input you can give!

Paul




-------------------------------------------
Paul T. Williams RPT
Piano Technician
University of Nebraska
Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
pwilliams4@unl.edu
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 08-27-2013 18:40
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Re-stringing a piano

Having no idea of your training or experience, i must advise caution in contracting to do something you have not done before.
PTG seminars have classes on how to restring a piano.
Other classes teach things like how to maintain tight and even coils on the tuning pins.
In the 1990s Bill Spurlock published articles on how to prepare the bridge tops for restringing.
With correct tools you can measure pin torque and make an informed decision about reusing or replacing the tuning pins.
There are appropriate tools to support the pinblock and keybed when driving new pins.
Japanese wire gauges are slightly different from America. Mapes International Gold iwire s the best match, but consult their chart for more details.
Just having the right tools, and having them organized is a significant project. 
Paul's idea that you begin with a learning piano of your own is good. This is what you would have done in a residency school. It will give you a chance to work through the problems without faculty watching and wondering what is the delay about.


-------------------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926

-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 08-27-2013 13:45
From: David Pritchard
Subject: Re-stringing a piano

Hello CAUTS,

I just started as the piano technician (on contract) for Liberty University.  They are wanting me to make suggestions that I can bid as proposed budget amendments for improving their piano inventory, since they have only been tuning the pianos for quite awhile now.  I'll be suggesting certain pianos get a full grand regulation, etc.  Here's my question:

I have replaced many individual strings, but have never done an entire re-stringing job.

1. Do you always replace the tuning pins when re-string an entire piano, assuming the pin block is fine?
2. How much time should I expect it to take?  Please give me a time estimate for someone that has gotten good at restringing.  I want to bid this fairly, even though it will probably take me a bit longer for my first big re-stringing job.
3. The piano in question is a Kawai KG-6C.  Would I simply call Mapes to get a quote for a whole set of the bass strings?  Or do you have a better suggestion?
4.  If I have 1 of each size of piano wire on hand from Schaff (on their "Schaff Dispensing Reels), will that be enough to re-string a whole piano, or will I need more than 1 coil of each size?  Or do you recommend a certain brand or type of wire?
5.  Do you have a ballpark amount to say the parts will cost when bidding a job like this?  What would my approximate cost be for the piano wire, bass strings, and tuning pins if necessary.

Thanks for your help!

-------------------------------------------
David Pritchard
Forest VA
308-635-0500
-------------------------------------------

Thanks for all the good advise, everyone.

-------------------------------------------
David Pritchard
Forest VA
308-635-0500
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 08-27-2013 18:58
From: Paul Williams
Subject: Re-stringing a piano

Thanks Ed. Nice advise.

I know this man. He has been a tech for many years, so I understand his worries. He has no university setting to learn this, but is a good technicican.  It is a new world for him as why I advised him to take on a home project first. Especially if he is to approach an up and coming university of music.  It's an interesting venture for him and I wish him the best. They're all new together and will grow together.  I, for one, want this fellow to be equipped to handle the jobs of the pianos he's about to face! I thank you all for all the input you can give!

Paul




-------------------------------------------
Paul T. Williams RPT
Piano Technician
University of Nebraska
Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
pwilliams4@unl.edu
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 08-27-2013 18:40
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Re-stringing a piano

Having no idea of your training or experience, i must advise caution in contracting to do something you have not done before.
PTG seminars have classes on how to restring a piano.
Other classes teach things like how to maintain tight and even coils on the tuning pins.
In the 1990s Bill Spurlock published articles on how to prepare the bridge tops for restringing.
With correct tools you can measure pin torque and make an informed decision about reusing or replacing the tuning pins.
There are appropriate tools to support the pinblock and keybed when driving new pins.
Japanese wire gauges are slightly different from America. Mapes International Gold iwire s the best match, but consult their chart for more details.
Just having the right tools, and having them organized is a significant project. 
Paul's idea that you begin with a learning piano of your own is good. This is what you would have done in a residency school. It will give you a chance to work through the problems without faculty watching and wondering what is the delay about.


-------------------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926

-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 08-27-2013 13:45
From: David Pritchard
Subject: Re-stringing a piano

Hello CAUTS,

I just started as the piano technician (on contract) for Liberty University.  They are wanting me to make suggestions that I can bid as proposed budget amendments for improving their piano inventory, since they have only been tuning the pianos for quite awhile now.  I'll be suggesting certain pianos get a full grand regulation, etc.  Here's my question:

I have replaced many individual strings, but have never done an entire re-stringing job.

1. Do you always replace the tuning pins when re-string an entire piano, assuming the pin block is fine?
2. How much time should I expect it to take?  Please give me a time estimate for someone that has gotten good at restringing.  I want to bid this fairly, even though it will probably take me a bit longer for my first big re-stringing job.
3. The piano in question is a Kawai KG-6C.  Would I simply call Mapes to get a quote for a whole set of the bass strings?  Or do you have a better suggestion?
4.  If I have 1 of each size of piano wire on hand from Schaff (on their "Schaff Dispensing Reels), will that be enough to re-string a whole piano, or will I need more than 1 coil of each size?  Or do you recommend a certain brand or type of wire?
5.  Do you have a ballpark amount to say the parts will cost when bidding a job like this?  What would my approximate cost be for the piano wire, bass strings, and tuning pins if necessary.

Thanks for your help!

-------------------------------------------
David Pritchard
Forest VA
308-635-0500
-------------------------------------------

I do a lot of pianos at the university where all I replace are the top two sections of strings, the capo sections. After 20 - 30 years there are likely to be issues, either rending friction or noise, and restringing just these sections gives the biggest bang for the buck in terms of improvement. I pull bridge pins (can't reach a unison next to each strut, but all the rest). Then I make the bridge top flat, with a combination of cabinet scraper and sandpaper. I use a single finger sanding technique, putting the pressure on the middle of the bridge and watching progress until the grooves in the bridge top are close to disappearing. Put a straightedge (6" rule) on the surface to make sure you are staying flat, and adjust what you do accordingly. I have used sanding blocks, and have found that I tend to end up with a convex surface. The hand isn't steady enough over a narrow surface like a bridge. You could use a small piece of 1x2 with the sandpaper pulled over the narrow edge as a block if this seemed easier to you. I have found the finger method works fine for me.

Then I renotch as needed, and put new pins in, inserting thin CA into each hole before pounding in the pins. I put CA in maybe 3 to 4 unisons at a time, pound, repeat. Use a punch that is a thin steel rod with a hole drilled in it large enough to fit the pin, and deep enough to serve as a gauge: stop pounding when the punch meets the surface. I used to use epoxy, then thick CA. I found in going back years later that it was VERY difficult to remove those pins (heat helps, but still . . .) Thin CA is a weaker bond, and it serves the purpose well enough, filling the gap and making it less hygroscopic.

Bill Spurlock (I think) wrote a series on this process many years back, with epoxy as his material. It is always worth reading what Bill had to say.

I agree with Ron N. about "seating strings" (there is plenty of conversation along those lines in the archives, including this recent thread
(though the topic is "string lifter" the conversation got into manipulating wires at terminations). Also, search "seating strings" and related topics. 

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
"When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 08-28-2013 06:04
From: David Pritchard
Subject: Re-stringing a piano

Thanks for all the good advise, everyone.

I'll clarify my situation and intentions a bit in case you want to add anything else.

I have been a piano technician full-time for 14 years in the panhandle of Nebraska.  Just sold my piano tech business in May and moved to Lynchburg, Virginia to pursue convincing Liberty University that they need to hire a full-time on staff tech.  I had put that bug in the Dean of the school of music's ear back in February.  Made the move and made a concerted effort at showing them that I would be a good tech for the University.  They had been using 2 other techs that were basically just tuning the pianos and minor repairs.  Not much beyond that.  I was able to show them how much their pianos could benefit from regulation, voicing, etc.

2 weeks ago they gave the entire contract to me, so I am their sole tech.  It is not an on-staff position yet, since they set this year's budget way back last November, but I think they are interested in making me a staff tech as early as next year.  I'm excited about the possibilities as they are just breaking ground on a new 30 Million dollar music and performing arts center that should be completed within 2 years.  It will be state of the art and have about 100 pianos in it.

They currently have 79 pianos which I have been tuning for the past 2 weeks.  Will finish up tomorrow.  Since I am basically working within last years tuning budget, there really isn't  money currently set aside for full grand regulations, etc. but they are wanting me to put together a "bid" of the things I feel are most important to get some of their better quality instruments working up to their potential. They will go to the provost and request a budget addendum for everything I ask for and they think there is a good chance they can get the money if we structure it right.  I think the idea is to then show them how much value they would get in the future by having me on staff rather than contracting me for every little job.  

The Kawai  Grand that I want to suggest re-stringing is in pretty decent shape, but there are a lot of false beats in the treble and the bass string are somewhat dead sounding.  I seated all the strings before I tuned it, but still had false beats and the top octave was very hard to tune.  There is crown and down bearing, but the strings actually have a lot of discoloration and rust, etc.  The action is in pretty decent shape, but I will suggest a full regulation as well if they can get the funds.

I have put whole sets of bass strings on a piano twice, but in both cases it was on uprights.  I have replaced many, many individual bass strings, and many broken plain wire strings, just never a whole piano's worth at once.  I am confident in my ability to put the strings on and make the coils, etc, especially if I use the old tuning pins.

I did recently purchase a jack for supporting the pin block - I just have never used it yet.

If I did the re-stringing job on this piano, I would do it starting right at the beginning of Christmas break, so I would have about a month to take my time and do it right.  They would be paying me a certain agreed upon amount, no matter how long it took me, which is why I am wanting to know how long I should expect it to take once I have gotten good at full re-stringings.

The one thing that is really out of my comfort zone is re-surfacing the bridge.  What does that really mean?  How can I learn to do it without waiting for a convention?

Thanks for all your help!  I look forward from learning a lot from you guys and contributing as week.

David Pritchard

434-841-7735

-------------------------------------------
David Pritchard
Forest VA
308-635-0500
-------------------------------------------

On 8/28/2013 5:04 AM, David Pritchard wrote: > > The one thing that is really out of my comfort zone is > re-surfacing the bridge. What does that really mean? Paul Williams gave you a good rundown of what the bridge needs. The false beats in the treble are from a combination of notch edges being crushed by strings during seasonal humidity cycles, and loose bridge pins also caused by the same humidity cycles, made worse by seating strings. When you restring, you need to pull the pins and flatten the bridge top to clean up those crushed edges. Doing that will probably mean you will have to re-notch the bridge to get the edge out of the speaking length. Install new bridge pins, same size is okay. Epoxy the pins in SOLIDLY, most particularly at the point where the pin enters the cap. This is very important, as it provides a firm base for the pin, preventing the flagpoling that produces false beats. If you don't do all this, you will still have an untunable treble after stringing. You'll likely have to pull the plate to reach everything, which will mean you can't use the original pins. Cleaning up and reshaping the capo will also be easier with the plate out. And yes, you ought to replace the agraffes. Almost universally, those with limited experience approach this sort of thing with the hope and assumption of being able to do it with minimum involvement. Those with extensive experience have learned that what you leave unaddressed will punish you later, or more likely sooner. Deal with the reality rather than the wishes, and do it all or don't do it. This is not a single string replacement times 230. It's a much more extensive job. And quit seating strings. It fixes nothing, and is destructive. Ron N

Ron wrote:

Almost universally, those with limited experience approach this sort of 
thing with the hope and assumption of being able to do it with minimum 
involvement. Those with extensive experience have learned that what you 
leave unaddressed will punish you later, or more likely sooner. Deal 
with the reality rather than the wishes, and do it all or don't do it. 
This is not a single string replacement times 230. It's a much more 
extensive job.
And quit seating strings. It fixes nothing, and is destructive.
Ron N

He is so right about this!

This summer John Parham restrung teacher M's studio S&S B, using the thorough approach Ron describes.
Meanwhile teacher M bought a used S&S B for his home this summer, restrung by the dealer in a more typical short cut approach.
Now that Professor M has heard the studio piano, he saying he made a mistake buying the other piano.

Taking the time to do the bridges and replace the agraffes is small in terms of the overall added value.

By the way, avoid grinding the tops of the bridge pins. On Yamahas the pin is rounded on both ends. You can pull the pins and reuse them by flipping them top to bottom. maybe the same on Kawais.

With the strings removed and pins tuning pins still in place, it should be possible to get a good torque reading. What do experienced folks think would be a minimum torque to reuse the tuning pins?

-------------------------------------------
Ed Sutton
Editor
Piano Technicians Journal
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926

-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 08-28-2013 08:39
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Re-stringing a piano

On 8/28/2013 5:04 AM, David Pritchard wrote:
>
> The one thing that is really out of my comfort zone is
> re-surfacing the bridge. What does that really mean?

Paul Williams gave you a good rundown of what the bridge needs. The
false beats in the treble are from a combination of notch edges being
crushed by strings during seasonal humidity cycles, and loose bridge
pins also caused by the same humidity cycles, made worse by seating
strings. When you restring, you need to pull the pins and flatten the
bridge top to clean up those crushed edges. Doing that will probably
mean you will have to re-notch the bridge to get the edge out of the
speaking length. Install new bridge pins, same size is okay. Epoxy the
pins in SOLIDLY, most particularly at the point where the pin enters the
cap. This is very important, as it provides a firm base for the pin,
preventing the flagpoling that produces false beats. If you don't do all
this, you will still have an untunable treble after stringing.

You'll likely have to pull the plate to reach everything, which will
mean you can't use the original pins. Cleaning up and reshaping the capo
will also be easier with the plate out. And yes, you ought to replace
the agraffes.

Almost universally, those with limited experience approach this sort of
thing with the hope and assumption of being able to do it with minimum
involvement. Those with extensive experience have learned that what you
leave unaddressed will punish you later, or more likely sooner. Deal
with the reality rather than the wishes, and do it all or don't do it.
This is not a single string replacement times 230. It's a much more
extensive job.

And quit seating strings. It fixes nothing, and is destructive.
Ron N

When it comes to private clientele, I tend to agree with what Ed Sutton wrote. In the context of being the employed piano technician at an institution, the picture changes. I want to do what makes the most sense for the institution, maximizing my efforts. I also like to look at my work as maintaining a quality level throughout the life of the instrument.

So for stringing, in my own situation, my norm is to restring only the capo sections, same tuning pins, at 15 - 25 years. A full restring with same pins (and probably agraffes) at 30 - 50 years. Thereafter, I have options (but won't live that long - I am presenting options to my successor): restring with oversized pins is very much an option.

The older pianos I am faced with tend to have been restrung with oversized pins, usually 4/0. In fact, I have a few that are only 30 years old that were restrung with oversized pins, and the pins are jumpy. Now I am forced to do a new block in a restring, where all the other pianos of that same age are doing fine with their original pins and block (most I have restrung). Of course, by the time we are beyond 50 years, we are looking at possible remanufacture, with a new soundboard or whatever, or replacement with a new piano - not that these are foregone conclusions.

In any case, it is a different mind set, working as a caut. It isn't so much the series of big, complete jobs as a constant, incremental series of jobs on every piano. That is hard to do as a contract tech, as you would be setting yourself up for examination by your peers who have a different mindset, who might say you didn't do the complete job that should have been done. So take what I am writing with that in mind, as you are not employed yet. What music departments want is results: the pianos all need to be in "good shape." If you are able to accomplish that, and at a lower cost to the department, you will be appreciated. But there are definitely treacherous situations to watch out for.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
"When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 08-28-2013 11:02
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Re-stringing a piano

Ron wrote:

Almost universally, those with limited experience approach this sort of 
thing with the hope and assumption of being able to do it with minimum 
involvement. Those with extensive experience have learned that what you 
leave unaddressed will punish you later, or more likely sooner. Deal 
with the reality rather than the wishes, and do it all or don't do it. 
This is not a single string replacement times 230. It's a much more 
extensive job.
And quit seating strings. It fixes nothing, and is destructive.
Ron N

He is so right about this!

This summer John Parham restrung teacher M's studio S&S B, using the thorough approach Ron describes.
Meanwhile teacher M bought a used S&S B for his home this summer, restrung by the dealer in a more typical short cut approach.
Now that Professor M has heard the studio piano, he saying he made a mistake buying the other piano.

Taking the time to do the bridges and replace the agraffes is small in terms of the overall added value.

By the way, avoid grinding the tops of the bridge pins. On Yamahas the pin is rounded on both ends. You can pull the pins and reuse them by flipping them top to bottom. maybe the same on Kawais.

With the strings removed and pins tuning pins still in place, it should be possible to get a good torque reading. What do experienced folks think would be a minimum torque to reuse the tuning pins?

-------------------------------------------
Ed Sutton
Editor
Piano Technicians Journal
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926

-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 08-28-2013 08:39
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Re-stringing a piano

On 8/28/2013 5:04 AM, David Pritchard wrote:
>
> The one thing that is really out of my comfort zone is
> re-surfacing the bridge. What does that really mean?

Paul Williams gave you a good rundown of what the bridge needs. The
false beats in the treble are from a combination of notch edges being
crushed by strings during seasonal humidity cycles, and loose bridge
pins also caused by the same humidity cycles, made worse by seating
strings. When you restring, you need to pull the pins and flatten the
bridge top to clean up those crushed edges. Doing that will probably
mean you will have to re-notch the bridge to get the edge out of the
speaking length. Install new bridge pins, same size is okay. Epoxy the
pins in SOLIDLY, most particularly at the point where the pin enters the
cap. This is very important, as it provides a firm base for the pin,
preventing the flagpoling that produces false beats. If you don't do all
this, you will still have an untunable treble after stringing.

You'll likely have to pull the plate to reach everything, which will
mean you can't use the original pins. Cleaning up and reshaping the capo
will also be easier with the plate out. And yes, you ought to replace
the agraffes.

Almost universally, those with limited experience approach this sort of
thing with the hope and assumption of being able to do it with minimum
involvement. Those with extensive experience have learned that what you
leave unaddressed will punish you later, or more likely sooner. Deal
with the reality rather than the wishes, and do it all or don't do it.
This is not a single string replacement times 230. It's a much more
extensive job.

And quit seating strings. It fixes nothing, and is destructive.
Ron N

Fred- You are correct, speaking from tho viewpoint of someone who has been the established technician at your school for over 20 years. Addressing Dave's situationas a hopefully incoming technician in a school which has no traditionof quality maintenance, I think he should go for the best work from the top, lest he establish a "good enough for the buck" standard from the start. The situation will provide plenty of opportunities for compromise later. ------------------------------------------- Ed Sutton Editor Piano Technicians Journal ed440@me.com 704-536-7926 -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 08-28-2013 12:08 From: Fred Sturm Subject: Re-stringing a piano When it comes to private clientele, I tend to agree with what Ed Sutton wrote. In the context of being the employed piano technician at an institution, the picture changes. I want to do what makes the most sense for the institution, maximizing my efforts. I also like to look at my work as maintaining a quality level throughout the life of the instrument. So for stringing, in my own situation, my norm is to restring only the capo sections, same tuning pins, at 15 - 25 years. A full restring with same pins (and probably agraffes) at 30 - 50 years. Thereafter, I have options (but won't live that long - I am presenting options to my successor): restring with oversized pins is very much an option. The older pianos I am faced with tend to have been restrung with oversized pins, usually 4/0. In fact, I have a few that are only 30 years old that were restrung with oversized pins, and the pins are jumpy. Now I am forced to do a new block in a restring, where all the other pianos of that same age are doing fine with their original pins and block (most I have restrung). Of course, by the time we are beyond 50 years, we are looking at possible remanufacture, with a new soundboard or whatever, or replacement with a new piano - not that these are foregone conclusions. In any case, it is a different mind set, working as a caut. It isn't so much the series of big, complete jobs as a constant, incremental series of jobs on every piano. That is hard to do as a contract tech, as you would be setting yourself up for examination by your peers who have a different mindset, who might say you didn't do the complete job that should have been done. So take what I am writing with that in mind, as you are not employed yet. What music departments want is results: the pianos all need to be in "good shape." If you are able to accomplish that, and at a lower cost to the department, you will be appreciated. But there are definitely treacherous situations to watch out for. ------------------------------------------- Fred Sturm University of New Mexico fssturm@unm.edu http://fredsturm.net "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 08-28-2013 11:02 From: Ed Sutton Subject: Re-stringing a piano Ron wrote: Almost universally, those with limited experience approach this sort of thing with the hope and assumption of being able to do it with minimum involvement. Those with extensive experience have learned that what you leave unaddressed will punish you later, or more likely sooner. Deal with the reality rather than the wishes, and do it all or don't do it. This is not a single string replacement times 230. It's a much more extensive job. And quit seating strings. It fixes nothing, and is destructive. Ron N He is so right about this! This summer John Parham restrung teacher M's studio S&S B, using the thorough approach Ron describes. Meanwhile teacher M bought a used S&S B for his home this summer, restrung by the dealer in a more typical short cut approach. Now that Professor M has heard the studio piano, he saying he made a mistake buying the other piano. Taking the time to do the bridges and replace the agraffes is small in terms of the overall added value. By the way, avoid grinding the tops of the bridge pins. On Yamahas the pin is rounded on both ends. You can pull the pins and reuse them by flipping them top to bottom. maybe the same on Kawais. With the strings removed and pins tuning pins still in place, it should be possible to get a good torque reading. What do experienced folks think would be a minimum torque to reuse the tuning pins? ------------------------------------------- Ed Sutton Editor Piano Technicians Journal ed440@me.com 704-536-7926 -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 08-28-2013 08:39 From: Ronald Nossaman Subject: Re-stringing a piano On 8/28/2013 5:04 AM, David Pritchard wrote: > > The one thing that is really out of my comfort zone is > re-surfacing the bridge. What does that really mean? Paul Williams gave you a good rundown of what the bridge needs. The false beats in the treble are from a combination of notch edges being crushed by strings during seasonal humidity cycles, and loose bridge pins also caused by the same humidity cycles, made worse by seating strings. When you restring, you need to pull the pins and flatten the bridge top to clean up those crushed edges. Doing that will probably mean you will have to re-notch the bridge to get the edge out of the speaking length. Install new bridge pins, same size is okay. Epoxy the pins in SOLIDLY, most particularly at the point where the pin enters the cap. This is very important, as it provides a firm base for the pin, preventing the flagpoling that produces false beats. If you don't do all this, you will still have an untunable treble after stringing. You'll likely have to pull the plate to reach everything, which will mean you can't use the original pins. Cleaning up and reshaping the capo will also be easier with the plate out. And yes, you ought to replace the agraffes. Almost universally, those with limited experience approach this sort of thing with the hope and assumption of being able to do it with minimum involvement. Those with extensive experience have learned that what you leave unaddressed will punish you later, or more likely sooner. Deal with the reality rather than the wishes, and do it all or don't do it. This is not a single string replacement times 230. It's a much more extensive job. And quit seating strings. It fixes nothing, and is destructive. Ron N

Ed,
Yes, precisely. So I am giving a particular type of input (directed at anyone reading the thread, not just the person asking the question), and you and Paul and Ron are giving another, each valid within its own perspective. One thing I would like to try to change is the notion of the big job or nothing, with respect to music programs. When we go in and say "All or most of your pianos need to be rebuilt," looking at it as action parts replacement, restring with new block, and another laundry list, we are not really serving their interests, and we are probably going to do more than needs to be done (and, worse, the pianos are likely to be sent out to someone who doesn't produce quality end results, and so the music program is left with a very bad taste in the mouth - spent a bundle and got crap).

It is similar to the "Buy all new pianos" syndrome. What they need is comprehensive ongoing maintenance. That isn't a real sexy thing to sell. It works far better in an employee situation, I think, though there are probably contract techs who manage to make it work up to a point. I guess I would say that it can work in a contract situation when the contractor is selling X hours of work, rather than trying to sell each individual service. IOW, when there is an agreed upon budget to live within, and sometimes you get additional budget for additional major things.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
"When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 08-28-2013 13:04
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Re-stringing a piano

Fred-

You are correct, speaking from tho viewpoint of someone who has been the established technician at your school for over 20 years.

Addressing Dave's situationas a hopefully incoming technician in a school which has no traditionof quality maintenance, I think he should go for the best work from the top, lest he establish a "good enough for the buck" standard from the start.

The situation will provide plenty of opportunities for compromise later.

-------------------------------------------
Ed Sutton
Editor
Piano Technicians Journal
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926

-------------------------------------------

On 8/28/2013 10:02 AM, Ed Sutton wrote: > Taking the time to do the bridges and replace the agraffes is small > in terms of the overall added value. Necessary, if you want to produce a decent job. > By the way, avoid grinding the tops of the bridge pins. On Yamahas > the pin is rounded on both ends. You can pull the pins and reuse them > by flipping them top to bottom. maybe the same on Kawais. Or replacing with new, which I'd prefer. There is no need to bottom pins out in the holes in any piano, incidentally, so the hole can be deeper than necessary and the pins can be driven to final height without filing. > With the strings removed and pins tuning pins still in place, it > should be possible to get a good torque reading. What do experienced > folks think would be a minimum torque to reuse the tuning pins? I've never strung a piano like this with original pins in place, but I'd go by feel. Keeping in mind that pins without strings on will be looser feeling than those with, I'd judge the feel as if it were strung and at pitch. Minimum anything is dangerous, considering the price of guessing wrong. Murphy was an optimist. CYA. Ron N