CAUT

      I just watched the 75th anniversary celebration of Tanglewood music festival on PBS. One of the featured performances was pianist Peter Serkin playing a Beethoven piano concerto with orchestra and chorus. I was amazed to see this pianist coxing vibrato out of the piano  ( Steinway I believe) ! I could not understand what I was seeing,  but there it was. He would land on a chord and wiggle both hands in a circular motion as he held onto the chord. The sound of the chords vibrato to my ears was unmistakable!  It was a beautiful effect that really fit the music. The chord vibrato was used repeatedly during the first part of the piece. Later, it got even more remarkable as he executed vibrato on single notes at the end of a phrase in the melody section. He would sustain the note with the pedal and then the vibrato was executed with the hand above the key ( hand moving in circular motion as his finger left the key and rose a foot or more above the keystick) Again, the vibration was audible to me, if not by my ear, then at least by my imagination. Either way the affect was tangible and real to me. I reminded me of how a magician uses his hands to direct or misdirect the attention of his audience. It may be a trick, but if your mind does not understand it, it seems like it really happens.  

         And I thought I knew something about how a piano worked!



-------------------------------------------
H. Russell Schmidt
Lexington KY
859-276-5015
-------------------------------------------

It is mechanically impossible to produce a vibrato tone on a piano.  Once a note has been struck the hammer immediately leaves the string (and can't return without being struck again), so all the wiggling fingers and hands in the world won't do anything to affect the tone of the already struck notes.  I would chalk this up to your eyes tricking your ears.

-------------------------------------------
Adam Schulte-Bukowinski
http://www.asbpianoservice.com
Omaha, NE
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-19-2014 16:09
From: H. Russell Schmidt
Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

      I just watched the 75th anniversary celebration of Tanglewood music festival on PBS. One of the featured performances was pianist Peter Serkin playing a Beethoven piano concerto with orchestra and chorus. I was amazed to see this pianist coxing vibrato out of the piano  ( Steinway I believe) ! I could not understand what I was seeing,  but there it was. He would land on a chord and wiggle both hands in a circular motion as he held onto the chord. The sound of the chords vibrato to my ears was unmistakable!  It was a beautiful effect that really fit the music. The chord vibrato was used repeatedly during the first part of the piece. Later, it got even more remarkable as he executed vibrato on single notes at the end of a phrase in the melody section. He would sustain the note with the pedal and then the vibrato was executed with the hand above the key ( hand moving in circular motion as his finger left the key and rose a foot or more above the keystick) Again, the vibration was audible to me, if not by my ear, then at least by my imagination. Either way the affect was tangible and real to me. I reminded me of how a magician uses his hands to direct or misdirect the attention of his audience. It may be a trick, but if your mind does not understand it, it seems like it really happens.  

         And I thought I knew something about how a piano worked!



-------------------------------------------
H. Russell Schmidt
Lexington KY
859-276-5015
-------------------------------------------

Russell,

A link to this performance would be nice so others here could be amazed as well, or not.

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
kam544@allegiance.tv

Original Message:
Sent: 06-19-2014 16:42
From: Adam Schulte-Bukowinski
...  It is mechanically impossible to produce a vibrato tone on a piano.  Once a note has been struck the hammer immediately leaves the string (and can't return without being struck again), so all the wiggling fingers and hands in the world won't do anything to affect the tone of the already struck notes.  I would chalk this up to your eyes tricking your ears.  ...


Original Message:
Sent: 06-19-2014 16:09
From: H. Russell Schmidt
...    I just watched the 75th anniversary celebration of Tanglewood music festival on PBS. One of the featured performances was pianist Peter Serkin playing a Beethoven piano concerto with orchestra and chorus. I was amazed to see this pianist coxing vibrato out of the piano  ( Steinway I believe) ! I could not understand what I was seeing,  but there it was.  ...

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/gperf/episodes/tanglewood-75th-anniversary-celebration/watch-the-full-program/1371/

The Serkin performance starts at about 1:28:00

I make nothing of the extra hand movements, except perhaps to point out that not everyone has a steady hand.

-------------------------------------------
Kent Swafford
Lenexa KS
913-631-8227
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-19-2014 16:09
From: H. Russell Schmidt
Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

      I just watched the 75th anniversary celebration of Tanglewood music festival on PBS. One of the featured performances was pianist Peter Serkin playing a Beethoven piano concerto with orchestra and chorus. I was amazed to see this pianist coxing vibrato out of the piano  ( Steinway I believe) ! I could not understand what I was seeing,  but there it was. He would land on a chord and wiggle both hands in a circular motion as he held onto the chord. The sound of the chords vibrato to my ears was unmistakable!  It was a beautiful effect that really fit the music. The chord vibrato was used repeatedly during the first part of the piece. Later, it got even more remarkable as he executed vibrato on single notes at the end of a phrase in the melody section. He would sustain the note with the pedal and then the vibrato was executed with the hand above the key ( hand moving in circular motion as his finger left the key and rose a foot or more above the keystick) Again, the vibration was audible to me, if not by my ear, then at least by my imagination. Either way the affect was tangible and real to me. I reminded me of how a magician uses his hands to direct or misdirect the attention of his audience. It may be a trick, but if your mind does not understand it, it seems like it really happens.  

         And I thought I knew something about how a piano worked!



-------------------------------------------
H. Russell Schmidt
Lexington KY
859-276-5015
-------------------------------------------

Kent,

I did enjoy greatly to see this Peter Serkin in action considering the discussion earlier about a requested special temperament by him.

Quite a passionate and accomplished pianist.

Thank you for the link and time slot.

As to a potential possible vibrato , he simply has his own unique style, hand movements and body gestures which is quite fascinating to me.

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
kam544@allegiance.tv

Original Message:
Sent: 06-19-2014 22:53
From: Kent Swafford
...  http://www.pbs.org/wnet/gperf/episodes/tanglewood-75th-anniversary-celebration/watch-the-full-program/1371/

The Serkin performance starts at about 1:28:00  ...

I also wish to mention, what a great ending with that entire group of musicians and vocalists. Simply splendid!

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
kam544@allegiance.tv
-------------------------------------------

All,

And additionally, check out

James Taylor

Ol Man River

25:25 - 29:55

 and

Anne-Sophia Mutter

Carmen Fantasy for violinist & orchestra Sarasate

57:31 - 1:11:11

Wow on both counts.

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
kam544@allegiance.tv
-------------------------------------------

Kent -
Thanks for the link.  Indeed, I would agree that this should not generate an extended discussion of piano vibrato.  Even allowing that Serkin would have had plenty of exposure to the idea in his extensive studies with Karl Ulrich Schnabel, who was a foremost proponent of the idea - (his mother had been a well known singer and, in any case, not all his students entirely bought into it), what I felt I saw in the Tanglewood performance was a somewhat shaky technique and an abundance of adrenalin. The idea of vibrato, I believe, was more a way of soliciting the emotional engagement of the player, by kinesthetically filling in what the piano cannot.  Perhaps it is meant as a reminder to the audience as well.  

Camera work was excellent, though likely unnerving for performers... every nose-hair and all.  Tempi at the end were too slow, as was the trilling throughout.  Piano did not record that well but it's Tanglewood, and I would have loved to have been there.  

-------------------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-19-2014 22:53
From: Kent Swafford
Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/gperf/episodes/tanglewood-75th-anniversary-celebration/watch-the-full-program/1371/

The Serkin performance starts at about 1:28:00

I make nothing of the extra hand movements, except perhaps to point out that not everyone has a steady hand.

-------------------------------------------
Kent Swafford
Lenexa KS
913-631-8227
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-19-2014 16:09
From: H. Russell Schmidt
Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

      I just watched the 75th anniversary celebration of Tanglewood music festival on PBS. One of the featured performances was pianist Peter Serkin playing a Beethoven piano concerto with orchestra and chorus. I was amazed to see this pianist coxing vibrato out of the piano  ( Steinway I believe) ! I could not understand what I was seeing,  but there it was. He would land on a chord and wiggle both hands in a circular motion as he held onto the chord. The sound of the chords vibrato to my ears was unmistakable!  It was a beautiful effect that really fit the music. The chord vibrato was used repeatedly during the first part of the piece. Later, it got even more remarkable as he executed vibrato on single notes at the end of a phrase in the melody section. He would sustain the note with the pedal and then the vibrato was executed with the hand above the key ( hand moving in circular motion as his finger left the key and rose a foot or more above the keystick) Again, the vibration was audible to me, if not by my ear, then at least by my imagination. Either way the affect was tangible and real to me. I reminded me of how a magician uses his hands to direct or misdirect the attention of his audience. It may be a trick, but if your mind does not understand it, it seems like it really happens.  

         And I thought I knew something about how a piano worked!



-------------------------------------------
H. Russell Schmidt
Lexington KY
859-276-5015
-------------------------------------------

Interesting, David...what I really enjoyed about the performance was the understated, meditative, quiet of the solo sections and the intimate orchestral conversations between soloist and members of the orchestra...a wonderful exploration of stream of consciousness.

Shaky technique...I suppose so, but the quiet of the performance and the organic ebbs and flows were, for me, such a relief from the usual, perfect, in-your-face amazing fare, it hardly even processed as I was listening, and what processed did not matter. Frankly, it stands in striking contrast to the in-your face amazing, "transcendent" performers, who always leave me wishing I had gone bowling instead. No bowling though on this one, for me...really enjoyed it in a content sort of way.

Thanks for the link Kent.

Jim Ialeggio

-------------------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
-------------------------------------------

Jim -
My comments were not meant to diminish the underlying quality of either music or performance.  We are, each, endowed with the in/unalienable right to respond uniquely to such artistic gestures.  My own preferences might go no further than the imprint of my first hearing of this piece, which, ironically, was by Peter's father, Rudolph.   My reference to 'shaky technique' was mostly literal: whether the shaking of his hands was a voluntary effort at producing an audible vibrato or a function of adrenalin.  I suspected the latter.  

As for the orchestral interplay, I agree, and am thrilled with the wind playing in this ensemble.  As for 'stream of consciousness', I wish I were smart enough to be able to (affectionately) make you regret your choice of phrase: the 'stream' would needs be that of Beethoven, not Serkin's, except the literary concept didn't exist then, and, in any case, would seem antithetical to the underlying architecture of Beethoven's music, which, from a vocal standpoint, continues to baffle me, which simply means that I have yet to take the time to resolve my ambivalence about it.  (spending too much time reading these lists, I suspect).

Your underlying idea is, however, inspirational.  A bowling ally at Tanglewood.  It would certainly bring in new audiences.

Regards -

-------------------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-20-2014 07:44
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

Interesting, David...what I really enjoyed about the performance was the understated, meditative, quiet of the solo sections and the intimate orchestral conversations between soloist and members of the orchestra...a wonderful exploration of stream of consciousness.

Shaky technique...I suppose so, but the quiet of the performance and the organic ebbs and flows were, for me, such a relief from the usual, perfect, in-your-face amazing fare, it hardly even processed as I was listening, and what processed did not matter. Frankly, it stands in striking contrast to the in-your face amazing, "transcendent" performers, who always leave me wishing I had gone bowling instead. No bowling though on this one, for me...really enjoyed it in a content sort of way.

Thanks for the link Kent.

Jim Ialeggio

-------------------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
-------------------------------------------

Perhaps you are right about the stream of consciousness. I tend to use words with meanings as I like to think of them...not necessarily meanings others relate to those terms. What I meant is that the fantasy, as a through composed idea, is and has always been my favorite way to organize a composition. Its all based on one or a very limited number of ideas, aka theme and variations, but maybe not really, flowing from one color to the next, continually enlarging the possibiities of that idea, and drawing new ideas out of that idea...always with a clear melodic connection to the original idea. This all without relying on the architecture and repetition of classical forms. Its kind of within the classical form but not...way to go Ludwig baby.

I agree about the choral aspect of the Choral Fantasy...the voices seem, to me, to be superfluous to the really cool part of the composition.

Thanks David...Nice to chat about this kind of thing...I don't get to do it often.

Jim Ialeggio
-------------------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
-------------------------------------------


I wish I were smart enough to be able to (affectionately) make you regret your choice of phrase: the 'stream' would needs be that of Beethoven, not Serkin's, except the literary concept didn't exist then, and, in any case, would seem antithetical to the underlying architecture of Beethoven's music, which, from a vocal standpoint, continues to baffle me, which simply means that I have yet to take the time to resolve my ambivalence about it.  (spending too much time reading these lists, I suspect).

Thank you for yet another area to add to my list of things I should have learned the first time around.  I didn't pay attention the way I shoulda, but agree with the basic premise of your doctorial thesis: Beethoven's Choral Fantasy: Way to go Ludwig, or just YO! 
(see: http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/06/18/3450334/yo-app-tech-bubble/ )

To clarify my vocal ambivalence, I don't find the voices superfluous... the contrast, both between solo and choral, as well as between orchestra and piano is actually rather thrilling.  It's just that I rarely hear solo performance of this (or 9th Symphony) that does not make me aware of how 'un'-vocal and difficult some of the writing is... mostly the upper voices.  Ironically, and just to bring this 'fantasy' back around, some of the most annoying aspects of some performances (for me) relates to the type of vibrato employed.  
-------------------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-20-2014 09:45
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

Perhaps you are right about the stream of consciousness. I tend to use words with meanings as I like to think of them...not necessarily meanings others relate to those terms. What I meant is that the fantasy, as a through composed idea, is and has always been my favorite way to organize a composition. Its all based on one or a very limited number of ideas, aka theme and variations, but maybe not really, flowing from one color to the next, continually enlarging the possibiities of that idea, and drawing new ideas out of that idea...always with a clear melodic connection to the original idea. This all without relying on the architecture and repetition of classical forms. Its kind of within the classical form but not...way to go Ludwig baby.

I agree about the choral aspect of the Choral Fantasy...the voices seem, to me, to be superfluous to the really cool part of the composition.

Thanks David...Nice to chat about this kind of thing...I don't get to do it often.

Jim Ialeggio
-------------------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
-------------------------------------------


I wish I were smart enough to be able to (affectionately) make you regret your choice of phrase: the 'stream' would needs be that of Beethoven, not Serkin's, except the literary concept didn't exist then, and, in any case, would seem antithetical to the underlying architecture of Beethoven's music, which, from a vocal standpoint, continues to baffle me, which simply means that I have yet to take the time to resolve my ambivalence about it.  (spending too much time reading these lists, I suspect).

I tried to listen/watch this link, but was informed it was not available in my area due to some restrictions. Pity.   Michael (UK)

-------------------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-19-2014 22:53
From: Kent Swafford
Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/gperf/episodes/tanglewood-75th-anniversary-celebration/watch-the-full-program/1371/

The Serkin performance starts at about 1:28:00

I make nothing of the extra hand movements, except perhaps to point out that not everyone has a steady hand.

-------------------------------------------
Kent Swafford
Lenexa KS
913-631-8227
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-19-2014 16:09
From: H. Russell Schmidt
Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

      I just watched the 75th anniversary celebration of Tanglewood music festival on PBS. One of the featured performances was pianist Peter Serkin playing a Beethoven piano concerto with orchestra and chorus. I was amazed to see this pianist coxing vibrato out of the piano  ( Steinway I believe) ! I could not understand what I was seeing,  but there it was. He would land on a chord and wiggle both hands in a circular motion as he held onto the chord. The sound of the chords vibrato to my ears was unmistakable!  It was a beautiful effect that really fit the music. The chord vibrato was used repeatedly during the first part of the piece. Later, it got even more remarkable as he executed vibrato on single notes at the end of a phrase in the melody section. He would sustain the note with the pedal and then the vibrato was executed with the hand above the key ( hand moving in circular motion as his finger left the key and rose a foot or more above the keystick) Again, the vibration was audible to me, if not by my ear, then at least by my imagination. Either way the affect was tangible and real to me. I reminded me of how a magician uses his hands to direct or misdirect the attention of his audience. It may be a trick, but if your mind does not understand it, it seems like it really happens.  

         And I thought I knew something about how a piano worked!



-------------------------------------------
H. Russell Schmidt
Lexington KY
859-276-5015
-------------------------------------------

Michael, I'm very sorry that you cannot see this video clip. (MADDENING!) perhaps someone with greater skills than I could somehow save it to a disc for you or some such. It's worth watching.
Best! Kevin Fortenberry

-------------------------------------------
Kevin Fortenberry
Registered Piano Technician
Lubbock TX
806-778-3962
-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 6/20/2014 4:11:38 AM
From: michael@gambles.fsnet.co.uk
Subject: RE: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

I tried to listen/watch this link, but was informed it was not available in my area due to some restrictions. Pity.   Michael (UK) ------------------------------------------- Michael Gamble semi retired Brighton 01273813612 -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 06-19-2014 22:53 From: Kent Swafford Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato! http://www.pbs.org/wnet/gperf/episodes/tanglewood-75th-anniversary-celebration/watch-the-full-program/1371/ The Serkin performance starts at about 1:28:00 I make nothing of the extra hand movements, except perhaps to point out that not everyone has a steady hand. ------------------------------------------- Kent Swafford Lenexa KS 913-631-8227 -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 06-19-2014 16:09 From: H. Russell Schmidt Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!       I just watched the 75th anniversary celebration of Tanglewood music festival on PBS. One of the featured performances was pianist Peter Serkin playing a Beethoven piano concerto with orchestra and chorus. I was amazed to see this pianist coxing vibrato out of the piano  ( Steinway I believe) ! I could not understand what I was seeing,  but there it was. He would land on a chord and wiggle both hands in a circular motion as he held onto the chord. The sound of the chords vibrato to my ears was unmistakable!  It was a beautiful effect that really fit the music. The chord vibrato was used repeatedly during the first part of the piece. Later, it got even more remarkable as he executed vibrato on single notes at the end of a phrase in the melody section. He would sustain the note with the pedal and then the vibrato was executed with the hand above the key ( hand moving in circular motion as his finger left the key and rose a foot or more above the keystick) Again, the vibration was audible to me, if not by my ear, then at least by my imagination. Either way the affect was tangible and real to me. I reminded me of how a magician uses his hands to direct or misdirect the attention of his audience. It may be a trick, but if your mind does not understand it, it seems like it really happens.            And I thought I knew something about how a piano worked! ------------------------------------------- H. Russell Schmidt Lexington KY 859-276-5015 -------------------------------------------

Thanks, Kevin. There are many people over in UK who would be delighted (delighted) to be able to both see and hear this Concert. Someone said the Camera work was amazing as well - something about nose-hair!. Well, I'm sure there must be a way of overcoming the Pond problem and I'm actively looking into it. Failing that a DVD would be MOST welcome!   Michael (UK)

-------------------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-20-2014 09:42
From: Kevin Fortenberry
Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

Michael, I'm very sorry that you cannot see this video clip. (MADDENING!) perhaps someone with greater skills than I could somehow save it to a disc for you or some such. It's worth watching.
Best! Kevin Fortenberry

-------------------------------------------
Kevin Fortenberry
Registered Piano Technician
Lubbock TX
806-778-3962
-------------------------------------------

Can't see it in UK 'Due to Right' restrictions.  Michael (UK)

-------------------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-19-2014 22:53
From: Kent Swafford
Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/gperf/episodes/tanglewood-75th-anniversary-celebration/watch-the-full-program/1371/

The Serkin performance starts at about 1:28:00

I make nothing of the extra hand movements, except perhaps to point out that not everyone has a steady hand.

-------------------------------------------
Kent Swafford
Lenexa KS
913-631-8227
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-19-2014 16:09
From: H. Russell Schmidt
Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

      I just watched the 75th anniversary celebration of Tanglewood music festival on PBS. One of the featured performances was pianist Peter Serkin playing a Beethoven piano concerto with orchestra and chorus. I was amazed to see this pianist coxing vibrato out of the piano  ( Steinway I believe) ! I could not understand what I was seeing,  but there it was. He would land on a chord and wiggle both hands in a circular motion as he held onto the chord. The sound of the chords vibrato to my ears was unmistakable!  It was a beautiful effect that really fit the music. The chord vibrato was used repeatedly during the first part of the piece. Later, it got even more remarkable as he executed vibrato on single notes at the end of a phrase in the melody section. He would sustain the note with the pedal and then the vibrato was executed with the hand above the key ( hand moving in circular motion as his finger left the key and rose a foot or more above the keystick) Again, the vibration was audible to me, if not by my ear, then at least by my imagination. Either way the affect was tangible and real to me. I reminded me of how a magician uses his hands to direct or misdirect the attention of his audience. It may be a trick, but if your mind does not understand it, it seems like it really happens.  

         And I thought I knew something about how a piano worked!



-------------------------------------------
H. Russell Schmidt
Lexington KY
859-276-5015
-------------------------------------------

I haven't seen the video but could the vibrato effect be attributed to a temperament other  than ET?

I placed the ⅛ comma modified meantone on a S&S A recently and the guy loves it.
-------------------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

There is certainly a vibrato or tremolo effect that happens in certain keys in some UT tunings. Ron Koval and Robert Wendell have both experimented with this explicitly, with very interesting effects. The concept is to set the major triad so that the M3 and m3 beat together mathematically, e.g. in the C major triad, the C-E beats at 3 and the E-G beats at 6, exactly 2:1. In the inverted triad, the CE third and the GE sixth would beat exactly the same. This creates a lovely tremolo effect. I attach a chart of Wendell's temperament that he named "Natural Synchronous Well" that ought to be far better known than it is. No M3 beats faster than 17.6, and SIX of the twelve major keys have a beat synchrony ratio of exactly 2.0 -- the other six have synchrony of 1.5 (and in those six, the fifths are pure). 

Alas, the Serkin temperament does not have any keys in which there is a 2:1 or 3:2 beat ratio. But I did not investigate what happens in minor triads.

-------------------------------------------
Jason Kanter
Bellevue WA
425-830-1561
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2014 07:56
From: Jon Page
Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

I haven't seen the video but could the vibrato effect be attributed to a temperament other  than ET?

I placed the ⅛ comma modified meantone on a S&S A recently and the guy loves it.
-------------------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Hi-

That is indeed the case, and ultimately it has more to do with certain intervals sounding faster then what you normally expect in ET.  Peter Serkin is well aware of this effect and is playing with that.  The player also has a huge impact on how musically this effect comes off- or not. What didn't speak to me so much about this temperament is that it has plenty of color at that end, but not much clarity on the other to balance it out.  That's only my opinion however.  Some like variety of color, some don't. The trade off is that what this tuning lacks in color variety it gains in leading tones.  That's what makes it so lyrical. Mr. Serkin knows all about that too.

best,

Dennis.

-------------------------------------------
Dennis Johnson, R.P.T.
St. Olaf College
Music Dept.
Northfield, MN 55337
sta2ned@stolaf.edu
(507) 786-3587
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2014 16:09
From: Jason Kanter
Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

There is certainly a vibrato or tremolo effect that happens in certain keys in some UT tunings. Ron Koval and Robert Wendell have both experimented with this explicitly, with very interesting effects. The concept is to set the major triad so that the M3 and m3 beat together mathematically, e.g. in the C major triad, the C-E beats at 3 and the E-G beats at 6, exactly 2:1. In the inverted triad, the CE third and the GE sixth would beat exactly the same. This creates a lovely tremolo effect. I attach a chart of Wendell's temperament that he named "Natural Synchronous Well" that ought to be far better known than it is. No M3 beats faster than 17.6, and SIX of the twelve major keys have a beat synchrony ratio of exactly 2.0 -- the other six have synchrony of 1.5 (and in those six, the fifths are pure). 

Alas, the Serkin temperament does not have any keys in which there is a 2:1 or 3:2 beat ratio. But I did not investigate what happens in minor triads.

-------------------------------------------
Jason Kanter
Bellevue WA
425-830-1561
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2014 07:56
From: Jon Page
Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

I haven't seen the video but could the vibrato effect be attributed to a temperament other  than ET?

I placed the ⅛ comma modified meantone on a S&S A recently and the guy loves it.
-------------------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

I listened to the MP3 of those Chopin extracts on that NY S&S and in the Nocturne No.1 on page 2 'sotto voce' where there is a R.H 8ve. F with a L.H. run starting on D below the bass clef. Now that interval has a definite beat - not unpleasant. I was so impressed with that temperament of Tim Farley's that I put it on my S&S 'A' - just to see how it sounded. And this is probably the basis for all the comments on this thread about 'Vibrato'.    Michael (UK) But I would dearly like to see and listen to that Tanglewood recording/video. However when I tried to open the link I was advised it was not available in my area 'due to Rights issues.   Michael (UK)

-------------------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2014 09:53
From: Dennis Johnson
Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

Hi-

That is indeed the case, and ultimately it has more to do with certain intervals sounding faster then what you normally expect in ET.  Peter Serkin is well aware of this effect and is playing with that.  The player also has a huge impact on how musically this effect comes off- or not. What didn't speak to me so much about this temperament is that it has plenty of color at that end, but not much clarity on the other to balance it out.  That's only my opinion however.  Some like variety of color, some don't. The trade off is that what this tuning lacks in color variety it gains in leading tones.  That's what makes it so lyrical. Mr. Serkin knows all about that too.

best,

Dennis.

-------------------------------------------
Dennis Johnson, R.P.T.
St. Olaf College
Music Dept.
Northfield, MN 55337
sta2ned@stolaf.edu
(507) 786-3587
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2014 16:09
From: Jason Kanter
Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

There is certainly a vibrato or tremolo effect that happens in certain keys in some UT tunings. Ron Koval and Robert Wendell have both experimented with this explicitly, with very interesting effects. The concept is to set the major triad so that the M3 and m3 beat together mathematically, e.g. in the C major triad, the C-E beats at 3 and the E-G beats at 6, exactly 2:1. In the inverted triad, the CE third and the GE sixth would beat exactly the same. This creates a lovely tremolo effect. I attach a chart of Wendell's temperament that he named "Natural Synchronous Well" that ought to be far better known than it is. No M3 beats faster than 17.6, and SIX of the twelve major keys have a beat synchrony ratio of exactly 2.0 -- the other six have synchrony of 1.5 (and in those six, the fifths are pure). 

Alas, the Serkin temperament does not have any keys in which there is a 2:1 or 3:2 beat ratio. But I did not investigate what happens in minor triads.

-------------------------------------------
Jason Kanter
Bellevue WA
425-830-1561
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2014 07:56
From: Jon Page
Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

I haven't seen the video but could the vibrato effect be attributed to a temperament other  than ET?

I placed the ⅛ comma modified meantone on a S&S A recently and the guy loves it.
-------------------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

With sincere due respect to all, we ought to be more diligent in the integrity of our discussions.  While Jon Page's speculations regarding the possible contribution of temperment to the perception of vibrato effect, it is wholly beside the point, in this case, as, for one, Mr. Serkin would have no need to physically move his hands, in any perceptible way, if the vibrato was the result of tuning.  And let's be real.  Piano vibrato, if, in fact achievable, would only make sense if it were to mimic the function of naturally occurring vibrato, as in singing, wind playing, and, not to appear dismissive, string playing.  It could not serve that function purely as a function of the interaction of harmonics.  

I'm not clear as to what MP3's Michael is referring to.  I also don't know why we would unquestioningly assume that the 'Serkin' temperament was employed in the Tanglewood performance.  As for Jason's information, I'm looking forward to some 'beach' time to look at it.

-------------------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-23-2014 07:42
From: Michael Gamble
Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

I listened to the MP3 of those Chopin extracts on that NY S&S and in the Nocturne No.1 on page 2 'sotto voce' where there is a R.H 8ve. F with a L.H. run starting on D below the bass clef. Now that interval has a definite beat - not unpleasant. I was so impressed with that temperament of Tim Farley's that I put it on my S&S 'A' - just to see how it sounded. And this is probably the basis for all the comments on this thread about 'Vibrato'.    Michael (UK) But I would dearly like to see and listen to that Tanglewood recording/video. However when I tried to open the link I was advised it was not available in my area 'due to Rights issues.   Michael (UK)

-------------------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2014 09:53
From: Dennis Johnson
Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

Hi-

That is indeed the case, and ultimately it has more to do with certain intervals sounding faster then what you normally expect in ET.  Peter Serkin is well aware of this effect and is playing with that.  The player also has a huge impact on how musically this effect comes off- or not. What didn't speak to me so much about this temperament is that it has plenty of color at that end, but not much clarity on the other to balance it out.  That's only my opinion however.  Some like variety of color, some don't. The trade off is that what this tuning lacks in color variety it gains in leading tones.  That's what makes it so lyrical. Mr. Serkin knows all about that too.

best,

Dennis.

-------------------------------------------
Dennis Johnson, R.P.T.
St. Olaf College
Music Dept.
Northfield, MN 55337
sta2ned@stolaf.edu
(507) 786-3587
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2014 16:09
From: Jason Kanter
Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

There is certainly a vibrato or tremolo effect that happens in certain keys in some UT tunings. Ron Koval and Robert Wendell have both experimented with this explicitly, with very interesting effects. The concept is to set the major triad so that the M3 and m3 beat together mathematically, e.g. in the C major triad, the C-E beats at 3 and the E-G beats at 6, exactly 2:1. In the inverted triad, the CE third and the GE sixth would beat exactly the same. This creates a lovely tremolo effect. I attach a chart of Wendell's temperament that he named "Natural Synchronous Well" that ought to be far better known than it is. No M3 beats faster than 17.6, and SIX of the twelve major keys have a beat synchrony ratio of exactly 2.0 -- the other six have synchrony of 1.5 (and in those six, the fifths are pure). 

Alas, the Serkin temperament does not have any keys in which there is a 2:1 or 3:2 beat ratio. But I did not investigate what happens in minor triads.

-------------------------------------------
Jason Kanter
Bellevue WA
425-830-1561
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2014 07:56
From: Jon Page
Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

I haven't seen the video but could the vibrato effect be attributed to a temperament other  than ET?

I placed the ⅛ comma modified meantone on a S&S A recently and the guy loves it.
-------------------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Hi again-

Good point, David. Thanks.  For my part, when I said the player has a huge impact on the musical effectiveness of tunings such as this, I was not referring to hand movement.  That's another subject entirely I will leave to the pianists.  I think most of us were taught to be minimalist in that regard, and for good reason. Professionals do whatever works for them and are judged by the music they make. It's not technically a "vibrato", and I for one would rather another word be used precisely to avoid the confusion you are talking about. Also, this effect is in no way exclusive to the "Serkin" temperament.

regards,
Dennis.

-------------------------------------------
Dennis Johnson, R.P.T.
St. Olaf College
Music Dept.
Northfield, MN 55337
sta2ned@stolaf.edu
(507) 786-3587
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-23-2014 19:09
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

With sincere due respect to all, we ought to be more diligent in the integrity of our discussions.  While Jon Page's speculations regarding the possible contribution of temperment to the perception of vibrato effect, it is wholly beside the point, in this case, as, for one, Mr. Serkin would have no need to physically move his hands, in any perceptible way, if the vibrato was the result of tuning.  And let's be real.  Piano vibrato, if, in fact achievable, would only make sense if it were to mimic the function of naturally occurring vibrato, as in singing, wind playing, and, not to appear dismissive, string playing.  It could not serve that function purely as a function of the interaction of harmonics.  

I'm not clear as to what MP3's Michael is referring to.  I also don't know why we would unquestioningly assume that the 'Serkin' temperament was employed in the Tanglewood performance.  As for Jason's information, I'm looking forward to some 'beach' time to look at it.

-------------------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-23-2014 07:42
From: Michael Gamble
Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

I listened to the MP3 of those Chopin extracts on that NY S&S and in the Nocturne No.1 on page 2 'sotto voce' where there is a R.H 8ve. F with a L.H. run starting on D below the bass clef. Now that interval has a definite beat - not unpleasant. I was so impressed with that temperament of Tim Farley's that I put it on my S&S 'A' - just to see how it sounded. And this is probably the basis for all the comments on this thread about 'Vibrato'.    Michael (UK) But I would dearly like to see and listen to that Tanglewood recording/video. However when I tried to open the link I was advised it was not available in my area 'due to Rights issues.   Michael (UK)

-------------------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2014 09:53
From: Dennis Johnson
Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

Hi-

That is indeed the case, and ultimately it has more to do with certain intervals sounding faster then what you normally expect in ET.  Peter Serkin is well aware of this effect and is playing with that.  The player also has a huge impact on how musically this effect comes off- or not. What didn't speak to me so much about this temperament is that it has plenty of color at that end, but not much clarity on the other to balance it out.  That's only my opinion however.  Some like variety of color, some don't. The trade off is that what this tuning lacks in color variety it gains in leading tones.  That's what makes it so lyrical. Mr. Serkin knows all about that too.

best,

Dennis.

-------------------------------------------
Dennis Johnson, R.P.T.
St. Olaf College
Music Dept.
Northfield, MN 55337
sta2ned@stolaf.edu
(507) 786-3587
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2014 16:09
From: Jason Kanter
Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

There is certainly a vibrato or tremolo effect that happens in certain keys in some UT tunings. Ron Koval and Robert Wendell have both experimented with this explicitly, with very interesting effects. The concept is to set the major triad so that the M3 and m3 beat together mathematically, e.g. in the C major triad, the C-E beats at 3 and the E-G beats at 6, exactly 2:1. In the inverted triad, the CE third and the GE sixth would beat exactly the same. This creates a lovely tremolo effect. I attach a chart of Wendell's temperament that he named "Natural Synchronous Well" that ought to be far better known than it is. No M3 beats faster than 17.6, and SIX of the twelve major keys have a beat synchrony ratio of exactly 2.0 -- the other six have synchrony of 1.5 (and in those six, the fifths are pure). 

Alas, the Serkin temperament does not have any keys in which there is a 2:1 or 3:2 beat ratio. But I did not investigate what happens in minor triads.

-------------------------------------------
Jason Kanter
Bellevue WA
425-830-1561
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2014 07:56
From: Jon Page
Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

I haven't seen the video but could the vibrato effect be attributed to a temperament other  than ET?

I placed the ⅛ comma modified meantone on a S&S A recently and the guy loves it.
-------------------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

My guess is that the Serkin Temperament would not have been used for that Tanglewood concert. It was not a solo gig. There were other pianists involved. We could ask Steve Carver, who is, I believe, head tech there.

Before doing so, it might be well for those who have better ears than I, and can pick up the differences, to give us their take on which it is, ET or 1/8 comma modified mean tone. How much can we hear, and how much is suggestibility? For those who have that temperament in their ear, or think they do, is there a consensus as to whether the piano was ET or 1/8?

Same thing with the hand motions. There are readily available pieces of software that can hone in on whether there is, in fact, a "vibrato" (which would presumably mean a pulsating difference in amplitude), not that I have such software or know how to use it. For that matter, there is software that can pick out individual pitches and measure them. (And alter them, to make the musician "in tune," both in recordings and in real time, or so it is claimed. Crazy world we live in). Or we can just speculate based on fantasy and imagination.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
http://fredsturm.net
"When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-23-2014 19:09
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

With sincere due respect to all, we ought to be more diligent in the integrity of our discussions.  While Jon Page's speculations regarding the possible contribution of temperment to the perception of vibrato effect, it is wholly beside the point, in this case, as, for one, Mr. Serkin would have no need to physically move his hands, in any perceptible way, if the vibrato was the result of tuning.  And let's be real.  Piano vibrato, if, in fact achievable, would only make sense if it were to mimic the function of naturally occurring vibrato, as in singing, wind playing, and, not to appear dismissive, string playing.  It could not serve that function purely as a function of the interaction of harmonics.  

I'm not clear as to what MP3's Michael is referring to.  I also don't know why we would unquestioningly assume that the 'Serkin' temperament was employed in the Tanglewood performance.  As for Jason's information, I'm looking forward to some 'beach' time to look at it.

-------------------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
-------------------------------------------

I was referring to the MP£ made available to us about a month ago. Just now I 'searched' this list under 'Serkin Temperament' and found the reference from about 30th May. I copied my entry - let's see if it 'pastes' here:  Yes! It works (like the Serkin Temperament.- which ought to be ascribed to Tim Farley really)   Michael (UK)

-------------------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-23-2014 19:09
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

With sincere due respect to all, we ought to be more diligent in the integrity of our discussions.  While Jon Page's speculations regarding the possible contribution of temperment to the perception of vibrato effect, it is wholly beside the point, in this case, as, for one, Mr. Serkin would have no need to physically move his hands, in any perceptible way, if the vibrato was the result of tuning.  And let's be real.  Piano vibrato, if, in fact achievable, would only make sense if it were to mimic the function of naturally occurring vibrato, as in singing, wind playing, and, not to appear dismissive, string playing.  It could not serve that function purely as a function of the interaction of harmonics.  

I'm not clear as to what MP3's Michael is referring to.  I also don't know why we would unquestioningly assume that the 'Serkin' temperament was employed in the Tanglewood performance.  As for Jason's information, I'm looking forward to some 'beach' time to look at it.

-------------------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
914-231-7565
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-23-2014 07:42
From: Michael Gamble
Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

I listened to the MP3 of those Chopin extracts on that NY S&S and in the Nocturne No.1 on page 2 'sotto voce' where there is a R.H 8ve. F with a L.H. run starting on D below the bass clef. Now that interval has a definite beat - not unpleasant. I was so impressed with that temperament of Tim Farley's that I put it on my S&S 'A' - just to see how it sounded. And this is probably the basis for all the comments on this thread about 'Vibrato'.    Michael (UK) But I would dearly like to see and listen to that Tanglewood recording/video. However when I tried to open the link I was advised it was not available in my area 'due to Rights issues.   Michael (UK)

-------------------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2014 09:53
From: Dennis Johnson
Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

Hi-

That is indeed the case, and ultimately it has more to do with certain intervals sounding faster then what you normally expect in ET.  Peter Serkin is well aware of this effect and is playing with that.  The player also has a huge impact on how musically this effect comes off- or not. What didn't speak to me so much about this temperament is that it has plenty of color at that end, but not much clarity on the other to balance it out.  That's only my opinion however.  Some like variety of color, some don't. The trade off is that what this tuning lacks in color variety it gains in leading tones.  That's what makes it so lyrical. Mr. Serkin knows all about that too.

best,

Dennis.

-------------------------------------------
Dennis Johnson, R.P.T.
St. Olaf College
Music Dept.
Northfield, MN 55337
sta2ned@stolaf.edu
(507) 786-3587
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2014 16:09
From: Jason Kanter
Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

There is certainly a vibrato or tremolo effect that happens in certain keys in some UT tunings. Ron Koval and Robert Wendell have both experimented with this explicitly, with very interesting effects. The concept is to set the major triad so that the M3 and m3 beat together mathematically, e.g. in the C major triad, the C-E beats at 3 and the E-G beats at 6, exactly 2:1. In the inverted triad, the CE third and the GE sixth would beat exactly the same. This creates a lovely tremolo effect. I attach a chart of Wendell's temperament that he named "Natural Synchronous Well" that ought to be far better known than it is. No M3 beats faster than 17.6, and SIX of the twelve major keys have a beat synchrony ratio of exactly 2.0 -- the other six have synchrony of 1.5 (and in those six, the fifths are pure). 

Alas, the Serkin temperament does not have any keys in which there is a 2:1 or 3:2 beat ratio. But I did not investigate what happens in minor triads.

-------------------------------------------
Jason Kanter
Bellevue WA
425-830-1561
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2014 07:56
From: Jon Page
Subject: Amazing Piano Vibrato!

I haven't seen the video but could the vibrato effect be attributed to a temperament other  than ET?

I placed the ⅛ comma modified meantone on a S&S A recently and the guy loves it.
-------------------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page