Pianotech

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Justin Hill
Jacksonville IL
217-370-2458
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Hi Justin:
There are several stand alone options, two of which you mentioned. There's another one called the Verituner, and just happens there's one for sale on Ebay for about $600. I prefer the Accutuner, which I've used for almost 30 years. The reason I like it is because the readout consists of led's which don't require any software to interfere with the real-time indication. Don't even consider the Peterson, it's nowhere near as advanced as the Accutuner. Very few professional tuners use that one. The Verituner is a very good machine also, and works differently. The stand-alone Verituner is no longer made, and now is only available as software for iphone/ipad. There may be some other stand-alone devices from overseas, but I don't know about them personally. I prefer the ruggedness of a stand-alone box, with good battery life, for the long haul. So, the Accutuner is the only choice I would recommend. You can get refurbished ones from the company at a discount, and not have to worry that it will be obsolete or crap out, or lack support. I think Yamaha has a tuning box M100(?) too, but I don't know much about it.
If cost is a factor, you might want to rethink the software side of things. TuneLab is $350, and they also have a trial period you can use it to try, and the only limitation is that it will time-out for a while. It works well and is quite configurable. The RCT CyberTuner is the most popular software by far, but is around $1000, with yearly update fee of around $80. Any of these devices or software will help keep you on track while you learn to tune by ear. Learning to tune by ear will make you a much better tuner in the long run.
As far as learning as an apprentice, you'll have to look around your local area for someone to teach you, unless you are willing to relocate. You can also look into a full time school if you have the means. The best thing you can do right away is to join the Technicians Guild, and meet the local technicians. Maybe one of them has an opening for someone like you.
Good luck.
Paul McCloud
San Diego


What is the best standalone tuner out there? I've looked at the Peterson tuners and the Sanderson AccuTuner. I tune C4-B4 usually, and tune the 4ths pure, and the 5ths as they should be (narrow; 3 beats in 5 seconds.) My ear is not good enough for even a satisfactory tuning yet, so I need a standalone tuning device that can give me great results.

If someone is willing to take me on as an apprentice and teach me how to tune as described above, that would be welcomed too.

Thank you!


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Justin Hill
Jacksonville IL
217-370-2458


------Original Message------



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Justin Hill
Jacksonville IL
217-370-2458
------------------------------

hi Justin,
i think there are several very good etd's out there and they presumably all have their pros and cons.  I like the Sanderson Accutuner best because that's the only one i have used so far.  When i took the second part of the tuning exam, using the sat 4, i scored 100% for the entire tuning so if you know how to tune a piano and know how to use an etd, one should be able to produce a very good tuning.
I have seen the Reyburn cyber tuner in action and i prefer its visual but not enough to switch. 
I have the sat 3 and 4.  I can't tell the difference in accuracy.  The only thing about the sat 4 is that the hinge and closing clip didn't last long for me (pieces started to break off after 2.5 years of heavy use and i just had them replace the entire housing since they can't replace the hinges nor clip).
Peter
Janssen Piano Services

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Petrus Janssen
Sharpsburg GA
678-416-8055
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I really like my Verituner on my iPhone. A great user forum as well.

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Regards,

Jon Page
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Original Message:
Sent: 01-19-2017 17:05
From: Petrus Janssen
Subject: Best Electronic Tuning Device

hi Justin,
i think there are several very good etd's out there and they presumably all have their pros and cons.  I like the Sanderson Accutuner best because that's the only one i have used so far.  When i took the second part of the tuning exam, using the sat 4, i scored 100% for the entire tuning so if you know how to tune a piano and know how to use an etd, one should be able to produce a very good tuning.
I have seen the Reyburn cyber tuner in action and i prefer its visual but not enough to switch. 
I have the sat 3 and 4.  I can't tell the difference in accuracy.  The only thing about the sat 4 is that the hinge and closing clip didn't last long for me (pieces started to break off after 2.5 years of heavy use and i just had them replace the entire housing since they can't replace the hinges nor clip).
Peter
Janssen Piano Services

------------------------------
Petrus Janssen
Sharpsburg GA
678-416-8055
------------------------------

------Original Message------



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Justin Hill
Jacksonville IL
217-370-2458
------------------------------

Mr. Hill,

I have an Accu tuner 3, a licensed copy of Tunelab, a licensed copy of Tunic onlypure, a Peterson 490 Autostrobe ( banished to another state for my brother in law to try ) and an iStrobosoft app on my phone. The Accu tuner is the only one I actually use. It is the one I recommend for beginners who are trying to learn tuning. The first reason is that it is very easy to directly measure any pitch. I have been unable to get consistent, reproducible measurement results from the other tools mentioned above. The second reason is that the Accu tuner comes with a number of temperment sequences and can be a very good way to teach oneself the temperment as well as to measure a temperment one has just set. The owners manual, while fairly opaque, contains a wealth of information regarding direct measurement of intervals by Jim Coleman and others. Mr Sturm of the University of New Mexico has posted elsewhere on this site regarding the weakness of the internal tuning program in the fifth octave and offers some useful workarounds.

I have respected colleagues who swear by Tune Lab. I find that the measurements I take in the program vary widely from one instance to another even when just a minute or two separate the measurements. One can certainly learn a great deal of tuning theory just learning to use the program. I have simply never gotten the program to deliver a tuning that I found particularly good no matter how I vary the measurement sequence. Others however use this program to great effect so I suspect the deficiencies are mine and not Robert Scott's.

Tunic onlypure is pretty much a black box with no input from the user regarding stretch or temperment. The author Bernhard Stopper is an advocate of tuning to a pure 12th which is something I have done as well for many years. The lack of any ability to manage the parameters of the tuning make it somewhat unsuitable for a beginner unless they are willing to simply reproduce the tuning the software tells them to. It will also measure the pitch differently depending on how loud and or how rapidly one strikes the note. This is most noticeable and problematic in the bass. The program begins to stretch the octaves wider than I am willing to live with starting somewhere in the sixth octave on most well scaled pianos. It is my favorite tool to use on really poorly scaled spinets. On small pianos that neither Tunelab or the Accutuner will give a smooth transition between the bass and tenor onlypure works as well or better than I can manage by ear. The ipad version works somewhat better than the android version.

The Peterson autostrobe is really just awful. It not only has a truly horrid owners manual it also produces " stretch " tunings which are an offense to common decency. Add to that it's characteristic production of an audible pitch a perfect fifth above the pitch one is trying to tune and it's really not something that will aid in the learning process.

The iStrobosoft app from Peterson while ovepriced($9.95 !) is nice to have on my phone. It's marginally accurate and is a good quick way to assess the pitch of a piano. It also has the soothing graphic of the Peterson strobe which is why I bought it in the first place. It would be almost no help at all in trying to tune a piano.

A fool and his money being soon parted, I am amazed that I don't own a copy of Dean Reyburn's Cybertuner. I just can't bring myself to pay a yearly fee to continue to use the program. If the quality of my Reyburn impact tuning hammer is any indication; the program's many passionate adherents  aren't misguided. I simply have no experience of the program.

All of the above should be considered with the caveat that it is just the experience of one old reprobate who lives in a swamp. Also too; no amount of software or electronic gear will ever provide one with the satisfaction of or be a substitute for the skills developed by learning to tune well by ear.



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Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL
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I can almost second everything Karl said. I have had great success with the Acu-tuner 3 (and older versions) since 1997. Began tuning by ear in 1993, and when I began experimenting with the Accu-tuner I "second guessed" pretty much every interval. I soon realized that if the piano has a decent scale at all, it was extremely close and as bad as I hated to admit it, more consistent! I will say that I definitely have to do some tweaks, primarily beginning in the 5th ovtave, in order to get the exact stretch my ear wants. But this is by far the best & most reliable machine I have used. Battery life is excelent and the manufacturer is AMAZING to work with when you need a new battery, etc (usually get at least 8 years out of a battery) Also, don't leave your ears "at home"! And always do unisons by ear. 

I do like my Tune Lab for quick checks & for ...aHem...certain pianos but it is not a stand-alone as requested. 

I too believe the Reyburn could be good, but again it's not a dedicated device. 

Sorry--have no experience with the Veri-tuner but I'm not sure they even offer a dedicated device anymore. 

I did experiment with the Tunic Only Pure app, which Bernard is currently making strides to improve, (at least for iPhone/iPads) but until it is fully developed/improved---not a viable option at this point IMHO. My 2 cents

------------------------------
[Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
[Staff Techician]
[Texas Tech Univ]
[Lubbock] [TX]
[8067783962]
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-23-2017 21:11
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: Best Electronic Tuning Device

Mr. Hill,

I have an Accu tuner 3, a licensed copy of Tunelab, a licensed copy of Tunic onlypure, a Peterson 490 Autostrobe ( banished to another state for my brother in law to try ) and an iStrobosoft app on my phone. The Accu tuner is the only one I actually use. It is the one I recommend for beginners who are trying to learn tuning. The first reason is that it is very easy to directly measure any pitch. I have been unable to get consistent, reproducible measurement results from the other tools mentioned above. The second reason is that the Accu tuner comes with a number of temperment sequences and can be a very good way to teach oneself the temperment as well as to measure a temperment one has just set. The owners manual, while fairly opaque, contains a wealth of information regarding direct measurement of intervals by Jim Coleman and others. Mr Sturm of the University of New Mexico has posted elsewhere on this site regarding the weakness of the internal tuning program in the fifth octave and offers some useful workarounds.

I have respected colleagues who swear by Tune Lab. I find that the measurements I take in the program vary widely from one instance to another even when just a minute or two separate the measurements. One can certainly learn a great deal of tuning theory just learning to use the program. I have simply never gotten the program to deliver a tuning that I found particularly good no matter how I vary the measurement sequence. Others however use this program to great effect so I suspect the deficiencies are mine and not Robert Scott's.

Tunic onlypure is pretty much a black box with no input from the user regarding stretch or temperment. The author Bernhard Stopper is an advocate of tuning to a pure 12th which is something I have done as well for many years. The lack of any ability to manage the parameters of the tuning make it somewhat unsuitable for a beginner unless they are willing to simply reproduce the tuning the software tells them to. It will also measure the pitch differently depending on how loud and or how rapidly one strikes the note. This is most noticeable and problematic in the bass. The program begins to stretch the octaves wider than I am willing to live with starting somewhere in the sixth octave on most well scaled pianos. It is my favorite tool to use on really poorly scaled spinets. On small pianos that neither Tunelab or the Accutuner will give a smooth transition between the bass and tenor onlypure works as well or better than I can manage by ear. The ipad version works somewhat better than the android version.

The Peterson autostrobe is really just awful. It not only has a truly horrid owners manual it also produces " stretch " tunings which are an offense to common decency. Add to that it's characteristic production of an audible pitch a perfect fifth above the pitch one is trying to tune and it's really not something that will aid in the learning process.

The iStrobosoft app from Peterson while ovepriced($9.95 !) is nice to have on my phone. It's marginally accurate and is a good quick way to assess the pitch of a piano. It also has the soothing graphic of the Peterson strobe which is why I bought it in the first place. It would be almost no help at all in trying to tune a piano.

A fool and his money being soon parted, I am amazed that I don't own a copy of Dean Reyburn's Cybertuner. I just can't bring myself to pay a yearly fee to continue to use the program. If the quality of my Reyburn impact tuning hammer is any indication; the program's many passionate adherents  aren't misguided. I simply have no experience of the program.

All of the above should be considered with the caveat that it is just the experience of one old reprobate who lives in a swamp. Also too; no amount of software or electronic gear will ever provide one with the satisfaction of or be a substitute for the skills developed by learning to tune well by ear.



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Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL
------------------------------

Justin,

I am not a proponent of ETDs, in fact I hope/wish you do not end up becoming dependent on one, but rather woodshed enough to learn the art of aural tuning.

With that said, I can suggest a tool to assist you. Tunelab is relatively inexpensive and is pretty good. You can use it on your smartphone so you needn't buy another device. It also has a feature that you can use to effectively learn what thirds, sixths, fourths, and fifths should sound like in ET. Once you figure out how to use the thing, you can then specify a specific aural temperament sequence that you like (I will suggest one), and the program will step you through it, the idea being that you tune the note aurally (not looking at the ETD) and when you think you have it...now look at the ETD and see how close you got...then use the ETD to correct it, then detune it and try again, carefully listening, repeatedly, stepping all the way through the temperament, etc.  So, you're not tuning the whole thing by ear and then trying to figure out where you went wrong...its a bit like having a coach right there to assist you as you go. Its a great exercise even for the seasoned pro!

Here is the sequence I would suggest first (only because you quickly start to get a feel for the relative speeds of ascending thirds and fourths):

A4 - A3 - F3 - A#3 - F#3 - B3 - G3 - C4 - G#3 - C#4 - D4 - D#4 - E4 - F4

At first you might find this a bit difficult to follow, however as I said it gets you hearing rising 3rds and 4ths almost immediately...this is important for the aural tuner. The down side is that it does not have a plethora of checks early on...it is actually a method that only a seasoned pro could normally tune due to experience. But the point is by doing it over and over and over you gradually get embedded in your brain how these intervals should sound (or pretty darn close).  The only interval tests you need to learn for this are the 3rd - 10th test for the octave, and the 3rd - 6th test for the 4ths.

You could easily set up any other sequence like John Travis's "up a 3rd, up a 3rd, down a 5th" routine if you want to learn contiguous 3rds...or anything else.

It is very possible that other ETDs will do this too, but they are all more expensive so that's why I am suggesting Tunelab. Use the tool to assist you in your learning aural skills, but fight like mad NOT to let it become a crutch.  I am warning you about this because I know from personal experience that it is very easy to start letting the machine do all the work. It is a well known fact that the sense of eyesight trumps all the other senses, and if you start relying on your eyes rather than your ears too early you will handcuff yourself aurally and stop progressing.  Don't let that happen. This is hard work as you already know, but necessary to develop those aural skills.  Think of the sense of accomplishment you will feel the day you can step through that aural sequence and hit it right on the money (or really, really close) all the way to the end! Yes!  And of course there's the rest of the piano...

I hope these suggestions help you.

Pwg

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Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-24-2017 09:08
From: Kevin Fortenberry
Subject: Best Electronic Tuning Device

I can almost second everything Karl said. I have had great success with the Acu-tuner 3 (and older versions) since 1997. Began tuning by ear in 1993, and when I began experimenting with the Accu-tuner I "second guessed" pretty much every interval. I soon realized that if the piano has a decent scale at all, it was extremely close and as bad as I hated to admit it, more consistent! I will say that I definitely have to do some tweaks, primarily beginning in the 5th ovtave, in order to get the exact stretch my ear wants. But this is by far the best & most reliable machine I have used. Battery life is excelent and the manufacturer is AMAZING to work with when you need a new battery, etc (usually get at least 8 years out of a battery) Also, don't leave your ears "at home"! And always do unisons by ear. 

I do like my Tune Lab for quick checks & for ...aHem...certain pianos but it is not a stand-alone as requested. 

I too believe the Reyburn could be good, but again it's not a dedicated device. 

Sorry--have no experience with the Veri-tuner but I'm not sure they even offer a dedicated device anymore. 

I did experiment with the Tunic Only Pure app, which Bernard is currently making strides to improve, (at least for iPhone/iPads) but until it is fully developed/improved---not a viable option at this point IMHO. My 2 cents

------------------------------
[Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
[Staff Techician]
[Texas Tech Univ]
[Lubbock] [TX]
[8067783962]
------------------------------