David <utterly ineffectual, unto tone killing
I meant, that literally the time spent achieved zero improvement towards the tone I am looking for. Pretty straight forward. I will engage my OCD only for practical result, as, at 67, I have no patience for spinning my wheels at the behest of the aforementioned Emperor.
What is the treble tone I personally am looking for?
Instantaneous development of organized pitch at the fundamental level...that is, a crisp non- abrasive attack, followed by the actual fundamental being present and sustaining at least a couple of seconds, hopefully more. Just a couple of seconds though can really be a big plus for treble tone. Most of the time, challenged treble tone (first capo) has almost no fundamental presence at all, and what fundamental appears, lasts a fraction of a second...that is, the fundamental lasts not much past the piercing, explosive attack phase of the tone.
So, with leveling, as one of the mating processes, in theory, I am talking about trying to maximize treble tone, as described above. Utterly ineffectual, means the theory did not match the reality. Leveling achieved no change that I could discern. When theory and reality don't agree, I question why. When I leveled strings, there was no significant increase in fundamental sustain, or there was so little improvement, that one could not tell if one was fooling one's self, or whether some tiny, tiny, tiny improvement happened. In any case, come back the next day and listen to it, and there will still be an unsatisfactory tone.
My complaint is one of degree.
When folks talk about improving treble tone, and when I listen to these processes demonstrated in a class or in person, performed by someone else, I may hear tiny incremental, improvements. However, when treble tone is challenged with explosive attack and lack of fundamental , which is a major flaw in my aesthetic, I'm not looking for incremental . I'm looking for major improvement, as in order of magnitude improvement, not tiny incremental improvement. I simply never get a major, order of magnitude improvement from leveling. I get it from remedial board work, mass loading, from mating sometimes, and from hammer work. In fact, the older I get, and the better the pianos sound, hammer work and the hammers themselves continue to reveal how important they are.
< what about the poor schlubs that do use heavier, denser hammers?
I don't know. I made my decision to target the hammer densities and weights I use based on my own practical results and data sets, and tonal aesthetic. It could be these folks are targeting a tone different from the tone I am targeting. As such they need to develop their own data set. The trick there is, if using a denser/heavier hammer/lower AR system , to question all conventional wisdom regarding what those hammers are or are not actually providing in reality, as opposed what conventional wisdom says they will provide. My data comes from reasonably light (but still modern weights, in the normal/ light end of hammer weight spectrum). Maybe folks who claim leveling works wonders need it to tame the high partial heavy effects of heavy dense hammers, which seems to be an aesthetic that many techs chase...I do not know, so I made the qualification. My data is based only on my personal experience, and on achieving what I consider my ideal tone, as described above.
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Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
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Original Message:
Sent: 03-07-2021 18:41
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Magnetic Mini Bubble Level. Where to buy?
Nancy...glad to hear I'm not the only one.
ps The appearance that there is an "Elite" is an illusion which the internet creates when folks blab a lot. I, for one, would love to hear your opinions on this and other rebuilding threads, adding your personal "blab" to the "blab" of other highly skilled equals!
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Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
Original Message:
Sent: 03-07-2021 10:11
From: Nancy Salmon
Subject: Magnetic Mini Bubble Level. Where to buy?
Though I am not one of the 'elite' - those I read, watch, and respect - I have been doing this full-time for 40+ years and had some good training and a small rebuilding shop, university and private work.
My experience mirrors that of Jim Laleggio.
I get better results from mating hammers to strings, rather than strings to hammers.
Nancy Salmon
LaVale, MD
Original Message:
Sent: 3/7/2021 12:08:00 AM
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: RE: Magnetic Mini Bubble Level. Where to buy?
Not gratuitously inflammatory. Its just that the weight of conventional wisdom is so heavy. Despite all commentaries to the contrary, in fact, in my experience, the king has no clothes. Calling out the fact that the king has no clothes always appears inflammatory, ie, challenging beliefs always is experienced as a gratuitous attack. My comment is neither an attack, or gratuitous. I have spent many many hours leveling. In every case, I found it utterly ineffectual, unto tone killing. It took time from other activities that would have got me closer to my tonal goals than leveling, which has achieved nothing for me.
I assumed it was the lack of an adequate tool. But, in my own experience, it was not the tool. It was the notion that strings could be leveled for a period longer than 5 minutes (level meaning put in a single plane within each unison. Not a single plane compass wide, a condition which would be impossible to verify... I know Chris' tool works off a single index on the keybed, but working from below, deflection of the unison becomes an issue.)
I have talked at length about this with some other top notch rebuilders who have said, regarding leveling, "I do it but I don't know why", in the ineffectual department.
The string takes somewhat of a catenary curve over the front termination. We can smooth the curve somewhat, but there remains some curve no matter how we abuse the string. Level the string. Then correct the tuning. As you pull or lower the string tension the curve moves, and angle that the string takes off the termination changes, and the projected line of the string changes, changing level.
When I was using my tool, which indexes off the plane defined by a unison's adjacent unisons, despite the tool's stability, as indexed off the adjacent unisons, when the adjacent unisons were tuned after leveling, the plane of the tuned unisons changed, every time. As did the reading of "level" on the target string. All of the leveling tools out there, especially the Goss tool, and the pocket ruler tool, allow you the opportunity to get the tool to give you the answer you want. They hardly present an objective reading, despite one's best efforts. And further, their weight, and on some, especially the magnetic ones, actively deflect the system while being read. I saw this every time I attempted to level, and thought it must just be my technique. I don't think that any more. I think we are working to a level of wished-for perfection, that exceeds the limits that the materials and terminations impose. We are also working with tools that are incapable of objectively reporting on the actual condition we are measuring.
Proof of the pudding is that my instruments sound better than at any other time in my career. Eliminating the leveling step has had no deleterious effect on my results. And, the unachorda, which I use often for various reasons, is an attractive sound, rather than the "weird" sound that "un-leveled" stings are purported to produce. Now....maybe that's because I don't use heavy dense hammers, and my systems are more forgiving because of that...I can't speak to how heavy hammers challenge the bandwidth of acceptable results, because I have no experience with heavy dense hammers, other than to remove them.
Prototypes are sitting on a shelf in my shop...quite cute, but useless.
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Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
Original Message:
Sent: 03-06-2021 23:27
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Magnetic Mini Bubble Level. Where to buy?
Oh my! Is this a product of an exceedingly good day or something else? I don't recall perceiving any of your prior contributions as gratuitously inflammatory. Let's just enumerate the sub-topics you've injected and then figure out how many new threads we'll need:
- photos and/or drawings of designed tool. Even in its failure, it would be fascinating to examine
- why is string level a "physical fiction"?
- when you say that "you don't bother with string leveling", are you implying that you are comfortable dealing with strings that are not level, or that, by your other steps, they end up level anyway?
- and so on.
Jim, please take the time to clarify.
Also, what became of any prototypes?
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David Skolnik [RPT]
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
917-589-2625
Original Message:
Sent: 03-06-2021 20:52
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Magnetic Mini Bubble Level. Where to buy?
A couple of years ago, I designed a tool for leveling, after being frustrated by the inaccuracy, and wishful thinking of all the aforementioned tools. I designed a tool, which I was getting ready to sell. Only thing was, that as I used the tool, it revealed to me, what I suspected all along...that is, that string level is a physical fiction, in this system. I ditched my plans to market the tool, and now do not bother, at all, with string leveling...I think string level is a physical impossibility, in this system. Level, or the appearance of level, is only made possible, by tools which present ambiguous results. The ambiguous results allow one to skew the results to suit the outcome one desires.
I don't level and I am consistently creating the nicest sounding pianos of my career. I do shape catenary curves at the front bridge pin and front termination.
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Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
Original Message:
Sent: 03-06-2021 13:27
From: David Skolnik
Subject: Magnetic Mini Bubble Level. Where to buy?
Mr. Karl,
Being mindful of my earlier disclaimer regarding 'concerns' (post #7) I'd share these observations/fantasies with regard to the Faulk level:
It's a little like the duality in 'squaring' a key to a crowned vs. uncrowned key level. The discrepancy is easy to observe, either visually or by employing a strip of feeler stock.
- The Faulk tool invokes a 'correct' string level based upon the string plane, which can diverge to a greater or lesser degree from the horizontal established by the keybed and action. This could induce a (subtle) difference in string heights of a unison.
- Any inconsistency in agraffe height of the strings upon which gauge sits could distort the horizontal orientation (check for rocking). For fun, (indeed!) I've played with using the Goose mounted on the Faulk, to check on the orientation of the latter.
- The cautions/compensations when using these tools with dampers installed were previously mentioned. In that case especially, I find the Grandworks String Height Gauge, which measures from keybed to underside of string easier and more consistent, https://grandwork.tools/collections/string-height-guages
It's also also depressingly expensive (even the unit without the rail) so try to find as many additional 'multi' uses as possible... for example, sliding from one measured unison to the next can reveal sometime significant variations in heights. The 'offset' of string height from one end of a section to another is not necessarily linear. Another might be mounting a straight wire to top of one of the aluminum inserts to transfer hammer flange center pin height.
If I'm feeling 'in the zone', I'll go back and forth between tools I.e.measuring from top AND bottom, to see if input produces consistent conclusions. My most consistent conclusion is that, if measurements are inconsistent, the 'zone' quickly loses its sustain.
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David Skolnik [RPT]
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
917-589-2625
Original Message:
Sent: 03-06-2021 08:45
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: Magnetic Mini Bubble Level. Where to buy?
Mr. Foster,
just FWIW you may want to look at the tool Charles Faulk makes. It's not a bubble level but I find it to be as good a string leveling device as any I've tried.
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Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL
Original Message:
Sent: 03-05-2021 08:49
From: Dave Foster
Subject: Magnetic Mini Bubble Level. Where to buy?
Looking to buy the Magnetic Mini Bubble Level for string leveling. I've looked everywhere for these.
Does anyone know where to get them?
Dave Foster, RPT
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Dave Foster, RPT
Waterford MI
248-431-8804
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