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addendum to "A Fantastik Remedy for Verdigris"

  • 1.  addendum to "A Fantastik Remedy for Verdigris"

    Member
    Posted 08-06-2022 19:07
    I read with keen interest the April Journals' A Fantastik Remedy For Verdigris. Dealing with contaminated (usually hammer) action centers on a regular basis, this piqued my attention. Thinking "Great-now I can quit using Protek CLP," I prepared some Fantastik to go with me in my tool case. 

    Last weekend, I was in front of new customer 1950's Balwin spinet; not in too bad of condition, a few slow hammers here and there. As I do even in light contamination situations, I decided to treat the whole set of hammer flanges. As I began, I saw immediately that the hammers were seizing up--and I mean seizing up! My jaw dropped & I began to sweat. Nothing about this in the article, I thought. NOW what?!? I immediately grabbed the Protek (I could swear I heard snickering coming from the bottle) & doused the afflicted flanges & worked the hammers. No results. Prepared the piano & started tuning, periodically working the hammers as I went through the tuning. This customer had gotten recommendation about me from a music minister of the church she attends, and was very eagerly awaiting for her old spinet to shine! Fortunately, the hammers completely freed up within the hour (I must wave worked them 600 or more times), the piano was tuned, and she was thrilled! I completely downed a bottled water they handed me & and departed.

    The next day, I went to my piano in the living room (a 1922 vintage Monarch my mother's parents had purchased in 1925), and applied the Fantastik on a few hammer flanges (I wish I had an instrument newer than 40 years as this experiment, but oh, well). The hammers didn't seize up like in the old Acrosonic, but they did slow quite a bit. I looked at the clock and went & did other things. About two to 2-1/2 hours later, they were completely free. My old friend Protek CLP is still in the tool case; I will now figure out a way to carry Fantastik in my vehicle (it seems to be rather volatile) for the really bad cases of action center contamination.

    ------------------------------
    Robert Sluss
    Lake City FL
    (386) 752-1888
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: addendum to "A Fantastik Remedy for Verdigris"

    Member
    Posted 08-07-2022 21:20
    Does anyone know what is in Fantastik ? It may have worked in this case but I would be very suspect of applying something like it in a clients piano until I had more data. I see you are in Florida so you are likely to have humidity issues. Because Fantastik likely shrunk the bushing cloth for now you got the friction out but who knows how it will hold up. If the product is volatile do you really want to be transporting it around ? My car in South Carolina can easily get over 100 in the summer. In fact I tested the dash one day with a temperature gun and I could have made a grilled cheese on the dash....I would suggest controlling the experiment- treat some slow hammers with CLP and mark in colored chaulk. Treat some others with the Fantastik and use a different chaulk. You should not have to work the hammers so much after application. Give them some time for the treatment to work in and play them in a bit. I typically will take hammers off in each section of a grand, do swing tests and gram tests to get a baseline. Treatment is usually with a pipette or an applicator bottle with long needle right into the flange action centers.

    A 1975 Baldwin Acro I finished up on Friday had not been tuned since new but 47 years later it had no slow/seizing hammers. There was a sticker on the hammer rest with a Baldwin label saying the action centers had been treated for dampness. I wonder what that magic dust was ????

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: addendum to "A Fantastik Remedy for Verdigris"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-07-2022 22:23

    https://www.victoryfoodservice.com/wp-content/uploads/SDS-700190-FOR-ALL-PURPOSE-FANTASTIK-CLEANER.pdf


    seems to work



    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: addendum to "A Fantastik Remedy for Verdigris"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-08-2022 01:21
    I have suggested the use of ammonia before, but I don't have any cases of verdigris to test it on.  Fantastic has an ammonia-like chemical with a pH of 12 (similar to ammonia), so it should react with the copper acetate (verdigris) and fatty acids in the wood to form an ammonium salt and the detergents might act like a lubricant.

    It probably couldn't hurt and is worth the try.

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert RPT
    Duarte CA
    (626) 795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: addendum to "A Fantastik Remedy for Verdigris"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-11-2022 01:26
    I have had success using Ether on Steinway vertigris infected action parts.  I remove the top action and take it outside.  It's very important to do it outside if you don't want to fall asleep during the application.  I take a can of engine starter fluid and spray all the bushings, saturating them completely.  I leave it outside while I do other things like vacuum the piano.  Ether evaporates very quickly so it doesn't take long before you can reassemble everything and begin playing.  The treatment lasts a year or so before it needs to be repeated.





  • 6.  RE: addendum to "A Fantastik Remedy for Verdigris"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-08-2022 06:06

    I don't know why the heat gun treatment doesn't seem to get any traction with this group. A simple heating of the flanges can successfully treat Verdi Gris for a good year. The trick is to move the gun slowly continuously back and forth to heat the flanges ( one section at a time).. Whether it's the tallow or the whale oil , one of the culprits causes a blueish gray plume of smoke appear. The plume of smoke tells you that the material has begun to boil and things are happening. I usually continue that section for another 30 seconds. Then move onto the next section.  This works 100% of the time on the worse case scenarios.

    Follow up with your favorite center pin lube and you are in the driver's seat.

     

    Tom Servinsky 

    Registered Piano Technician

    Concert Artist Piano Technician

    Director/Conductor- Academy Orchestra

    Managing Conductor-Treasure Coast Youth Symphony

    Clarinetist-Atlantic Classical Orchestra

    tompiano@tomservinsky.com

    Website: tomservinsky.com

    772 221 1011 office

    772 260 7110 cell

     






  • 7.  RE: addendum to "A Fantastik Remedy for Verdigris"

    Member
    Posted 08-08-2022 12:01
    Tom... that sounds like a good thing to test on action centers that are gummed up by verdigris which seems to be on older Steinways. The booklet titled Steinway Logic that I have posted here stated that Steinway boiled parts in paraffin to water proof/dampp proof. Maybe the plumes of blue grey smoke are from paraffin and not tallow or whale oil. I never heard of whale oil being used although tallow has been mentioned. Some of my research has found that tallow was used on early wrapped instrument wire to anneal the windings.

    I have been seeking a number of verdigris loaded whippens to do some experiments on using some newer techniques. I have a number of hammers with verdigris action centers but would really like some whippens if anyone has any to supply me with.

    Verdigris is one cause of slow/stuck action centers but there are other causes such as contaminated bushing cloth, scored/scratched center pins, flaking plating, burrs on cut pins catching in the cloth, poor quality bushing cloth, swelling from humidity, glue residues

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: addendum to "A Fantastik Remedy for Verdigris"

    Posted 08-08-2022 16:40
    I did a test last April 3rd using Fantastik. I used 2 seized up, zero swing S&S shanks/flanges. One, I sprayed with Fantastik and the other I soaked in the same for 5 seconds. Reviewing today, I find that the sprayed version swings at about 5 while the soaked one swings at about 15. So that's the result at 4+ months.   

    Also, I did the 5 second soak test last December with PFPE. After soaking and working vigorously, the first one would swing 5 times and the other had 7. Again, these S&S flanges/shanks were utterly seized up. 8 months later they both swing at about 10. 

    Of course, this is not a real-world test  The only conclusion I can draw is that soaking is more efficient than hypo-bottle application but not very practical in most situations.

    ------------------------------
    Randy Prentice RPT
    Tucson AZ
    (520) 749-3788
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: addendum to "A Fantastik Remedy for Verdigris"

    Member
    Posted 08-08-2022 17:01
    I use a syringe with a commercial/industrial blunt-tip needle, for CLP also

    Sincerely,
    Bob Sluss
    Fine Tuning




  • 10.  RE: addendum to "A Fantastik Remedy for Verdigris"

    Member
    Posted 08-08-2022 12:27

    I'd like to clarify a few things concerning my original post. 


    I fully believe that Fantastik is a very promising solution. My post was not intended to disagree with that. 

    When I described working the mentioned hammers and applying Protek CLP, it was because I was dealing with an unknown situation and CLP was my only known hope of a quick remedy. One detail I left out, for brevity's sake, was that I had treated a couple other hammer flanges, A0 and B0, with Fantastik also, and they seized up, but I left them alone, concentrating on the ones in the upper 2nd octave I'd apllied it to. I noticed, while I was tuning, that those that I'd left alone were freeing up on their on accord, as the hammers in my home piano did. 

    My current conclusion is that Fantastic may not be ideal for the "quick jobs" where there is light contamination. I fully intend to give it a try to a really "gummed-up" set of flanges next. 



    ------------------------------
    Robert Sluss
    Lake City FL
    (386) 752-1888
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: addendum to "A Fantastik Remedy for Verdigris"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-08-2022 12:49
    It seems that because there is water in Fantastik there naturally would be swelling of the felt and sluggishness until the water evaporates.  Just like adding a solution of alcohol and water.  Once the bushing felt has shrunk, of course the flange is going to be more free than before.  I don't know much more about the action of the other ingredients, which are:
              Ingredients
    • Water Water. Provides a liquid base for a product.
    • Diisopropanolamine pH Adjuster. ...
    • Isotridecyl Alcohol 3EO Cleaning Agent.
    • Lauramine Oxide Cleaning Agent. ...
    • Benzalkonium Chloride Active Ingredient. ...
    • Tetrasodium Iminodisuccinate Chelator. ...
    • Fragrance Fragrance.
    Ok, so there's alcohol in it.  Check.  Water.  Check.  Other stuff, yeah it's in there.  Whether it removes or neutralizes the negative effects of the tallow/oil/paraffin I don't know.  If they leach out the bad stuff, that's great.  Whatever is used, I would prefer to blast it out with compressed air.  If you put a nozzle over the flange hole and blast air through it, you can often see stuff being emitted from the ends of the flange via the capillaries of the wood.  That's what I want to see.  Less contamination to ooze back into the felt.

    ------------------------------
    Paul McCloud, RPT
    Accutone Piano Service
    www.AccutonePianoService.com
    pavadasa@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: addendum to "A Fantastik Remedy for Verdigris"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-08-2022 17:07
    The source of the copper in copper acetate is the center pins.  Piano center pins are commonly made of "German silver", an alloy of brass which, even though it appears to look like steel, has no iron in it. Don't try fishing for that dropped center pin with a magnet.  This is common to almost all pianos. But all pianos do not have this green gunk.  The green is just a symptom, a correllary but not the cause.  The gunk, that is, the residual wax left from the application of mineral (sometimes know as paraffin) oil, is the real culprit here.

     Paraffin wax does not chemically react with anything. This is why they used to use it to encase tissue samples back in the days before refrigeration. Nothing will corrode or degrade it.  Nothing will dissolve it, though heating will turn it from a solid to a liquid.  Since you can't chemically remove it, it will eventually return to gum things up again.  Alcohol and water acts to size the bushing cloth, but if the bushing cloth has been properly sized already, you won't get much mileage out of that.  When I first started treating Steinway flanges for this condition, I used alcohol and water in a heat box, followed by silicon oil in naphtha.  This works like a charm if the flanges haven't been dunked in mineral (also know as paraffin) oil. But eventually the Steinway flanges will always revert to their old ways.   Usually after a year or two.  Until you have followed up this Fantastic treatment for some time, I wouldn't be making any promises (or charging) for a permanent fix.

    ------------------------------
    Cecil Snyder RPT
    Torrance CA
    (310) 542-7108
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: addendum to "A Fantastik Remedy for Verdigris"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-08-2022 23:29
    Parafin oil is usually mineral oil, though in the UK it is often kerosene.  Both mineral oil and kerosine are mostly or entirely chains of carbon and hydrogen atoms.

    Natural oils, like animal fats or vegetable oils contain an acid group, which resembles acetic acid (vinegar), these are usually referred to as fatty acids.  This acid group can degrade off of the carbon chain it is attached to and becomes the acid that can cause corrosion of copper or brass (copper acetate or verdegris).

    Piano parts lubricated with pure mineral oil will probably not corrode unless some other material is added.  Mineral oil and naptha have been used for many years as a flange lubricant with fairly good results and I have heard of no reports of corrosion from that treatment. Wood itself contains some acid and there can be some acid etching from degrading wood, this is the source of the acid that degrades lead in boat models housed in wood display cases (the US Navy has a research report on this).  If this were a serious problem then we would see much more wide spread corrosion of brass and copper parts in pianos.

    It is the acid in contaminated parts that we need to neutralize.  The ammonium chloride compounds in common cleaning agents like Fantastic (and other cleaners) are what might react with the acids in piano parts, neutralizing the acids and reducing the waxy and oily deposits and freeing up the parts.  Ammonia itself may also work.

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert RPT
    Duarte CA
    (626) 795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: addendum to "A Fantastik Remedy for Verdigris"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-09-2022 05:48

    Very interesting

     

    Tom Servinsky 

    Registered Piano Technician

    Concert Artist Piano Technician

    Director/Conductor- Academy Orchestra

    Managing Conductor-Treasure Coast Youth Symphony

    Clarinetist-Atlantic Classical Orchestra

    tompiano@tomservinsky.com

    Website: tomservinsky.com

    772 221 1011 office

    772 260 7110 cell

     






  • 15.  RE: addendum to "A Fantastik Remedy for Verdigris"

    Member
    Posted 08-09-2022 07:32
    Very interesting, Blaine! Now I learned something!

    Sincerely,
    Bob Sluss
    Fine Tuning




  • 16.  RE: addendum to "A Fantastik Remedy for Verdigris"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-09-2022 08:38
    Greetiings everyone.  I use a three step process that starts with distilled vinegar (an acid) mixed 1:1 with 70% rubbing alcohol (wetting agent), apply it to the centers and let that soak in for a 1/2 hour then follow with a wash of baking powder and water mixed 1:1 with rubbing alcohol (a base), and finally a wash of just plain rubbing alcohol.  The vinegar dissolves the verdigris and the baking powder neutralizes the vinegar.  The by product of mixing acetic acid and sodium bicarbonate is H2O, or simply stated, water, so there is no chemical residue left after the treatment.  I don't do this in the home, I bring the action to my shop and pull the action stack off the keyboard.  The process takes the better part of a day to do and the action needs to dry over night.  I follow with an application of Protek CPL.  It works.  I have treated three Steinways with advanced verdigris successfully, the first action I treated in January 2021, a year and a half ago and it is still working freely today in August (i just tuned the piano).  This piano had severe verdigris in both the treble and bass.  I had treated it several times with just CPL which loosened it up for a day or two.  The treatment takes about a day to complete so I charge accordingly.  The main advantages are you are using household products that are cheap and there is no residue.  BTW you can get industrial strength vinegar (15%) at home depot.  You can also get 90% and 100% rubbing alcohol if you look around.  One final note, to make the sodium bicarbonate solution you mix baking soda with water.  there is a limit to how much sodium bicarbonate you can suspend in water so the baking powder won't completely dissolve, there will be some powder that accumulates at the bottom of the jar once the water has reached it's maximum absorption.  You just pour off the liquid and leave the surplus powder at the bottom.

    ------------------------------
    John Gunderson RPT
    Neptune City NJ
    (732) 740-6674
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: addendum to "A Fantastik Remedy for Verdigris"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-09-2022 08:50
    My apologies,  the base is made from water and baking soda, not baking powder.  Baking powder and baking soda are not the same thing,  Do not use baking powder.

    ------------------------------
    John Gunderson RPT
    Neptune City NJ
    (732) 740-6674
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: addendum to "A Fantastik Remedy for Verdigris"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-09-2022 08:54
    BTW, don't ever ask me to bake you a cake.

    ------------------------------
    John Gunderson RPT
    Neptune City NJ
    (732) 740-6674
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: addendum to "A Fantastik Remedy for Verdigris"

    Member
    Posted 08-09-2022 09:02
    😂

    Sincerely,
    Bob Sluss
    Fine Tuning




  • 20.  RE: addendum to "A Fantastik Remedy for Verdigris"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-09-2022 09:10
    John,

    Very interesting. Do you work the parts at all in the process? Or just squirt it on and let it sit?

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: addendum to "A Fantastik Remedy for Verdigris"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-09-2022 09:31

    I do the applications first and let the action dry overnight.  Once you apply the solutions the action seizes right up due to all the water.  The swelling may actually help the process by sizing the center pin bushings when the action dries.  Then I apply the CPL.  After that I check the action.  There might be a few tight centers left but I mean only a few.  I re-pin those centers.

     

    John Gunderson

    Registered Piano Technician

    732-740-6674

    "The tuner alone preserves the tone"

     






  • 22.  RE: addendum to "A Fantastik Remedy for Verdigris"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-09-2022 10:12
    So...the verdigris is "gone"...as in disappeared? Or is it simply "deactivated" but visible, but causing no problems? 

    This is all highly interesting. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: addendum to "A Fantastik Remedy for Verdigris"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-09-2022 15:54
    Deactivated but if you take a flange off you can still see green residue.  The action parts are moving freely.  I would think that the only way you could get rid of that green residue would be to rebush the flange.  Also, let me say that this is, as are all these verdigris fixes, simply stop-gap measures to free up the action.  I would guess they all are ultimately temporary measures, merely buying time to put off the inevitable, that being replacing all the action parts with new parts.  That is the only true fix to verdigris but not many of my Steinway-owning customers can afford a new action.

    I would also like to add a word of caution, if you try this procedure bear in mind that you will be putting a lot of water on the flanges.  You must take precautions not to let that water run down and saturated the knuckles for instance.  That is why it is important to take the action stack off the keys.  That way you can put the action on your bench and turn it in such a way as to keep the solutions from running in to parts of the action you don't want it to be.

    ------------------------------
    John Gunderson RPT
    Neptune City NJ
    (732) 740-6674
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: addendum to "A Fantastik Remedy for Verdigris"

    Posted 08-09-2022 11:09
    Do you all think this would work for some sluggish grand jacks on an old Estey grand?  Someone rebuilt the piano a 16 years ago, but they neglected the action.  I have tried several applications of CLP and the jacks will move freely for a month and then seize up again.  So it was timely that I saw this post!

    Or do you think it would be best to just repin the jacks?

    Thanks

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Greene
    OWNER
    Knoxville TN
    (865) 384-6582
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: addendum to "A Fantastik Remedy for Verdigris"

    Member
    Posted 08-09-2022 11:39
    It would be better to repin all of the jacks and ream/burnish the bushings. The jacks should have little friction/low gram gauge reading 1-2 grams and be the loosest of the action centers. While you are at it the friction of the rep lever should be checked . Too low friction here and you can get cheating/jamming jacks

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: addendum to "A Fantastik Remedy for Verdigris"

    Member
    Posted 08-09-2022 11:54
    John.. are you doing this to all of the action centers or just the hammer flanges ? I have encountered verdigris all over on some Steinways and would think the problem is lurking in all of the action centers. A Steinway grand had new hammers, shanks and flanges installed but the whippen flanges where loaded with it. To get the action to work someone loaded it up with baby talc/powder. The piano came here from the West Coast and someone told me that "fix" was someones trademark.
    You describe doing a wash - does that mean dipping parts or flowing liquid over the parts ? If so what effect is there on glue joints from the vinegar ?

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: addendum to "A Fantastik Remedy for Verdigris"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-09-2022 20:16
    James. I do this to the hammer & whippen flanges, and the jack centers.  I don't do it to the repetition centers.  I would be concerned about getting too much water on the at the base of the repetition lever flange where it is attached to the whippen.  It could cause problems with the glue joints.  If you are careful  in applying the solutions you can do it in such away so as to keep the water away from the knuckles and other parts of the action.  I don't remove the hammers or whippens, I keep them on the rails.  I apply the acid, base, and alcohol wash with a fluid applicator like you would use with Protek CPL.  When I use the term wash i mean the I am following up the acid & base applications with a "wash" application of rubbing alcohol to clean as much residue as possible from the center pin bushings.  It's all done with the applicator.

    As I have said, I have done this with success on three Steinways, a Hamburg model B from 1914, and two NY model M's from the 1930's.  What I would suggest is to do what I did, take off a couple of seized shanks or whippens and do a test on those flanges, let it sit over night and check the results in the morning.

    I should say I have had no problem with flanges warping as of yet.  I tell me customers that what I am doing is experimental but that I have had success with it.  I tell them that the alternative is new action parts, and let them decide if they want me to proceed.  I give full disclosure.  I call it my piano tuners version of "informed consent".

    ------------------------------
    John Gunderson RPT
    Neptune City NJ
    (732) 740-6674
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: addendum to "A Fantastik Remedy for Verdigris"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-09-2022 16:12
    Patrick, if CPL didn't solve your problem you could certainly try this procedure.  Again I would take the action off the keys first and then I would do a test on one of the end jacks, let it set overnight and evaluate the success or failure in the morning.  If it worked then proceed. If not then back to the drawing board.  I'm curious, how's the regulation on this piano?  Are the shanks off the rest rail?  How are the repetition levers, are their springs weak?  How's the height of the jack in the repetition lever mortise, is the jack able to slip in and out under the knuckle, is it positioned properly under the knuckle?  How's the hammer drop adjustment?  Forgive me, I'm sure you already checked these things but I just thought I'd throw them out there in case.

    ------------------------------
    John Gunderson RPT
    Neptune City NJ
    (732) 740-6674
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: addendum to "A Fantastik Remedy for Verdigris"

    Posted 08-09-2022 21:15
    Hello John,

    I had checked to make sure the hammers were fully on the rest rail, and I had noticed that the jack is able to slip in and out under the knuckle, but I confess that I have not checked the repetition springs.  I will do that tomorrow.  I want to do a test with the Fantastik on a couple of the jacks to see if that will actually help.  I also confess that I hate to re-pin.  I am always afraid I am going to break something fragile that cannot be replaced..like an Estey whippen that is 80 years old.  :-)

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Greene
    OWNER
    Knoxville TN
    (865) 384-6582
    ------------------------------