Alan, I don't think this topic and use of fasteners can be covered enough.
Here is a question for you? Your Mason Hamlin has a curve for the wippen cloth are there som piano that are flat that need that strip of extra cloth? I have been have some of my older steinway grands starting to chip at the wippen cloth. I think it is from previous use of chemicals. If I use powdered soap stone/talc there it goes away.
When the key end felt is glued do we glue the entire surface? I don't I wasn't taught ti do it that way and most older pianos are free at the end of the key. Over time there is less noise glued like this.
Most key frame back cloth is only glued down at the front for about 5/8". But some pianos have an under strip and glued front and back edges. If we knew what was original, especially in the thickness you should stick with what they di originally.
I am sure that you know most of this. Hide glue can be reheated but loses some of its strength each time. Urea can be added to it to slow the drying but it causes the glue to be weaker than without it (think of the old school house glue dabber.
I guess the last thing is to think about what glue was used in the first place, because hide glue won't stick well over some types of glue. But hide glue usually can be removed completely by scraping and sanding.
My first glue pot was an electric coffee percolator with a baby food jar hung from the top using brass wire. It seems a big deal now to find the bigger electric jacketed glue pot.
There is a book written by Stephen A Shepherd all about using hide glue for more information.
Original Message:
Sent: 5/13/2025 7:10:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: RE: Backrail cloth: glue both edges?
Hi Jessica,
Last thing first: What rant? I didn't read no stinking' rant… ;-)
My apologies for broaching a subject that has previously been covered. I do read the vast majority of the post on these lists, and usually remember what subjects have already been covered. Apparently, I lapsed this time.
Very much appreciate your input and advocacy for high glue. Point taken.
Best,
Alan
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Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
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Original Message:
Sent: 05-13-2025 17:07
From: Jessica Masse
Subject: Backrail cloth: glue both edges?
I know that this is old. But it keeps coming up over And over. Hide glue is best for back rail cloth, any felt etc. As far as cleaning the wood; it is too difficult to remove pvc and pvce wood glue from the wood and you can't successfully go back to hide glue after you use the other glues. It is a must for key bushings if you ever this have to rebush another time. It doesn't need to be completely removed from surfaces to apply the next time water and heat reactivates it. There is also a fish glue that is stronger that luthiers use with the same properties. If you need instructions on how to use this glue you can find them on line. Hide glue or leave it alone.
Original Message:
Sent: 5/1/2025 9:38:00 AM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: RE: Backrail cloth: glue both edges?
Hi Dennis,
Thanks for your input on this.
I am in complete agreement with you about thorough prep of the wooden backrail before carefully gluing on the cloth. As my late, great mentor, Keith Hardesty, always insisted, "The glue we use likes to adhere to bare wood, not to glue residue or vestiges of cloth."
Also share your practice of using sticks cut to length for each section to provide for more even clamping pressure. May not be totally necessary, but it couldn't hoit! (I use the sticks from sets of Renner shank & flanges, but any properly sized scraps will do.)
Alan
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Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
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Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2025 19:09
From: Dennis Johnson
Subject: Backrail cloth: glue both edges?
Agree on the hot hide glue for this. Take some time to nicely clean up the frame before gluing new stuff down. I cut strips of wood just the right length for each section to clamp them down after gluing.
Dennis Johnson, R.P.T.
Facebook.com/johnsonpianoservice
(612) 599-6437 (cell)
Original Message:
Sent: 4/30/2025 6:58:00 PM
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: RE: Backrail cloth: glue both edges?
Hide glue is faster, doesn't soak into the cloth (if thick enough). I hadn't heard of Thick and Quick. It is probably fine. I like hide glue because I always have it, it keeps forever, and it is both fast and easily reversible. Bottles of glue tend not to get used up, and to have shelf lives.
Call me an old timer, I guess I am one. Stuck in my ways :-)
Original Message:
Sent: 4/30/2025 6:08:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: RE: Backrail cloth: glue both edges?
Hi Fred,
Thanks, as always, for your input. Much appreciated!
Yes, there is a felt strip that runs the length of each piece of back rail cloth, creating a slight rise in the middle of the width of the cloth.
i was going to use Quick & Thick glue for this but noted that you use hide glue. Is that for reversibility when the cloth is again removed (at which time I will be pushing up daisies, most likely!). But even if I am dead and gone, I will still care…
Alan
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Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483