Pianotech

Does anyone have any tips regarding reducing excessive false beats in the capo d'astro area of some grand pianos? It seems to happen most often with certain models of pianos, more than others. The false beats are not only annoying, but also hard to get a clean unison, and all the fidgeting makes rendering the string for a stable tuning difficult. 

String leveling, hammer fitting or CA glue on the bridge pins don't seem to do the trick in this case, for me at least. Has anyone had success with lowering string tension and lightly sanding the underside of the capo d'astro to remove the string grooves? Obviously, this is too time consuming for a standard tuning and not stable enough for just before a concert, so are there other simpler tricks, pre-concert that anyone has found helpful? Would a lubricant like Prolube at the contact point with the strings at the underside of the capo d'astro be safe and effective?

Does anyone have any tips regarding reducing excessive false beats in the capo d'astro area of some grand pianos? It seems to happen most often with certain models of pianos, more than others. The false beats are not only annoying, but also hard to get a clean unison, and all the fidgeting makes rendering the string for a stable tuning difficult. 

String leveling, hammer fitting or CA glue on the bridge pins don't seem to do the trick in this case, for me at least. Has anyone had success with lowering string tension and lightly sanding the underside of the capo d'astro to remove the string grooves? Obviously, this is too time consuming for a standard tuning and not stable enough for just before a concert, so are there other simpler tricks, pre-concert that anyone has found helpful? Would a lubricant like Prolube at the contact point with the strings at the underside of the capo d'astro be safe and effective?

You could try a Sraight-Mate

Does anyone have any tips regarding reducing excessive false beats in the capo d'astro area of some grand pianos? It seems to happen most often with certain models of pianos, more than others. The false beats are not only annoying, but also hard to get a clean unison, and all the fidgeting makes rendering the string for a stable tuning difficult. 

String leveling, hammer fitting or CA glue on the bridge pins don't seem to do the trick in this case, for me at least. Has anyone had success with lowering string tension and lightly sanding the underside of the capo d'astro to remove the string grooves? Obviously, this is too time consuming for a standard tuning and not stable enough for just before a concert, so are there other simpler tricks, pre-concert that anyone has found helpful? Would a lubricant like Prolube at the contact point with the strings at the underside of the capo d'astro be safe and effective?

David's suggestion has become my go-to protocol:  https://my.ptg.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?GroupId=43&MID=639373&CommunityKey=6265a40b-9fd2-4152-a628-bd7c7d770cbf&tab=digestviewer

You could try a Sraight-Mate

Does anyone have any tips regarding reducing excessive false beats in the capo d'astro area of some grand pianos? It seems to happen most often with certain models of pianos, more than others. The false beats are not only annoying, but also hard to get a clean unison, and all the fidgeting makes rendering the string for a stable tuning difficult. 

String leveling, hammer fitting or CA glue on the bridge pins don't seem to do the trick in this case, for me at least. Has anyone had success with lowering string tension and lightly sanding the underside of the capo d'astro to remove the string grooves? Obviously, this is too time consuming for a standard tuning and not stable enough for just before a concert, so are there other simpler tricks, pre-concert that anyone has found helpful? Would a lubricant like Prolube at the contact point with the strings at the underside of the capo d'astro be safe and effective?

Thanks, but the link times out and won't open...

David's suggestion has become my go-to protocol:  https://my.ptg.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?GroupId=43&MID=639373&CommunityKey=6265a40b-9fd2-4152-a628-bd7c7d770cbf&tab=digestviewer

You could try a Sraight-Mate

Does anyone have any tips regarding reducing excessive false beats in the capo d'astro area of some grand pianos? It seems to happen most often with certain models of pianos, more than others. The false beats are not only annoying, but also hard to get a clean unison, and all the fidgeting makes rendering the string for a stable tuning difficult. 

String leveling, hammer fitting or CA glue on the bridge pins don't seem to do the trick in this case, for me at least. Has anyone had success with lowering string tension and lightly sanding the underside of the capo d'astro to remove the string grooves? Obviously, this is too time consuming for a standard tuning and not stable enough for just before a concert, so are there other simpler tricks, pre-concert that anyone has found helpful? Would a lubricant like Prolube at the contact point with the strings at the underside of the capo d'astro be safe and effective?

Thanks, but the link times out and won't open...

David's suggestion has become my go-to protocol:  https://my.ptg.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?GroupId=43&MID=639373&CommunityKey=6265a40b-9fd2-4152-a628-bd7c7d770cbf&tab=digestviewer

You could try a Sraight-Mate

Does anyone have any tips regarding reducing excessive false beats in the capo d'astro area of some grand pianos? It seems to happen most often with certain models of pianos, more than others. The false beats are not only annoying, but also hard to get a clean unison, and all the fidgeting makes rendering the string for a stable tuning difficult. 

String leveling, hammer fitting or CA glue on the bridge pins don't seem to do the trick in this case, for me at least. Has anyone had success with lowering string tension and lightly sanding the underside of the capo d'astro to remove the string grooves? Obviously, this is too time consuming for a standard tuning and not stable enough for just before a concert, so are there other simpler tricks, pre-concert that anyone has found helpful? Would a lubricant like Prolube at the contact point with the strings at the underside of the capo d'astro be safe and effective?

Thanks, but the link times out and won't open...

David's suggestion has become my go-to protocol:  https://my.ptg.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?GroupId=43&MID=639373&CommunityKey=6265a40b-9fd2-4152-a628-bd7c7d770cbf&tab=digestviewer

You could try a Sraight-Mate

Does anyone have any tips regarding reducing excessive false beats in the capo d'astro area of some grand pianos? It seems to happen most often with certain models of pianos, more than others. The false beats are not only annoying, but also hard to get a clean unison, and all the fidgeting makes rendering the string for a stable tuning difficult. 

String leveling, hammer fitting or CA glue on the bridge pins don't seem to do the trick in this case, for me at least. Has anyone had success with lowering string tension and lightly sanding the underside of the capo d'astro to remove the string grooves? Obviously, this is too time consuming for a standard tuning and not stable enough for just before a concert, so are there other simpler tricks, pre-concert that anyone has found helpful? Would a lubricant like Prolube at the contact point with the strings at the underside of the capo d'astro be safe and effective?

I only understood myself to have posted a single link. In any case, you can search for the post using the search term "situ" in the site's search box. Result will be in the top 5. 

Thanks, but the link times out and won't open...

David's suggestion has become my go-to protocol:  https://my.ptg.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?GroupId=43&MID=639373&CommunityKey=6265a40b-9fd2-4152-a628-bd7c7d770cbf&tab=digestviewer

You could try a Sraight-Mate

Does anyone have any tips regarding reducing excessive false beats in the capo d'astro area of some grand pianos? It seems to happen most often with certain models of pianos, more than others. The false beats are not only annoying, but also hard to get a clean unison, and all the fidgeting makes rendering the string for a stable tuning difficult. 

String leveling, hammer fitting or CA glue on the bridge pins don't seem to do the trick in this case, for me at least. Has anyone had success with lowering string tension and lightly sanding the underside of the capo d'astro to remove the string grooves? Obviously, this is too time consuming for a standard tuning and not stable enough for just before a concert, so are there other simpler tricks, pre-concert that anyone has found helpful? Would a lubricant like Prolube at the contact point with the strings at the underside of the capo d'astro be safe and effective?

I'm sure the protocol is very worthwhile, but as I'm not a rebuilder, I can't see myself ever going to that extent for this issue. I wonder if anyone has tried taking down the tension in the area slightly, and moving the strings one string width to the right, or just enough to get them out of the grooves, re-tensioning the strings, re-spacing and re-fitting the hammers to the strings? (Assuming the dampers are newer and would conform to the new string position.) They would eventually create new grooves in the v-bar, but it might give 10 or 20 years of improved tone....?

I only understood myself to have posted a single link. In any case, you can search for the post using the search term "situ" in the site's search box. Result will be in the top 5. 

Thanks, but the link times out and won't open...

David's suggestion has become my go-to protocol:  https://my.ptg.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?GroupId=43&MID=639373&CommunityKey=6265a40b-9fd2-4152-a628-bd7c7d770cbf&tab=digestviewer

You could try a Sraight-Mate

Does anyone have any tips regarding reducing excessive false beats in the capo d'astro area of some grand pianos? It seems to happen most often with certain models of pianos, more than others. The false beats are not only annoying, but also hard to get a clean unison, and all the fidgeting makes rendering the string for a stable tuning difficult. 

String leveling, hammer fitting or CA glue on the bridge pins don't seem to do the trick in this case, for me at least. Has anyone had success with lowering string tension and lightly sanding the underside of the capo d'astro to remove the string grooves? Obviously, this is too time consuming for a standard tuning and not stable enough for just before a concert, so are there other simpler tricks, pre-concert that anyone has found helpful? Would a lubricant like Prolube at the contact point with the strings at the underside of the capo d'astro be safe and effective?

I'm sure the protocol is very worthwhile, but as I'm not a rebuilder, I can't see myself ever going to that extent for this issue. I wonder if anyone has tried taking down the tension in the area slightly, and moving the strings one string width to the right, or just enough to get them out of the grooves, re-tensioning the strings, re-spacing and re-fitting the hammers to the strings? (Assuming the dampers are newer and would conform to the new string position.) They would eventually create new grooves in the v-bar, but it might give 10 or 20 years of improved tone....?

I only understood myself to have posted a single link. In any case, you can search for the post using the search term "situ" in the site's search box. Result will be in the top 5. 

Thanks, but the link times out and won't open...

David's suggestion has become my go-to protocol:  https://my.ptg.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?GroupId=43&MID=639373&CommunityKey=6265a40b-9fd2-4152-a628-bd7c7d770cbf&tab=digestviewer

You could try a Sraight-Mate

Does anyone have any tips regarding reducing excessive false beats in the capo d'astro area of some grand pianos? It seems to happen most often with certain models of pianos, more than others. The false beats are not only annoying, but also hard to get a clean unison, and all the fidgeting makes rendering the string for a stable tuning difficult. 

String leveling, hammer fitting or CA glue on the bridge pins don't seem to do the trick in this case, for me at least. Has anyone had success with lowering string tension and lightly sanding the underside of the capo d'astro to remove the string grooves? Obviously, this is too time consuming for a standard tuning and not stable enough for just before a concert, so are there other simpler tricks, pre-concert that anyone has found helpful? Would a lubricant like Prolube at the contact point with the strings at the underside of the capo d'astro be safe and effective?

Carl,

I have a 20+ yr old Boston in my patient file that NEEDS this operation badly. When I took the pics to show the client the condition it was obvious that a previous tech had performed the "move the groove" dance in this area. The impressions were deep and the problem was back. Her eyes widened as she saw the mess. 

I'm not a fan of doing this in place...but maybe. The whole thing SHOULD be restrung as she's a heavy operator. But by the hour, the bill will be what the bill will be. I didn't create the problem, but I know how to cure it. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

I'm sure the protocol is very worthwhile, but as I'm not a rebuilder, I can't see myself ever going to that extent for this issue. I wonder if anyone has tried taking down the tension in the area slightly, and moving the strings one string width to the right, or just enough to get them out of the grooves, re-tensioning the strings, re-spacing and re-fitting the hammers to the strings? (Assuming the dampers are newer and would conform to the new string position.) They would eventually create new grooves in the v-bar, but it might give 10 or 20 years of improved tone....?

I only understood myself to have posted a single link. In any case, you can search for the post using the search term "situ" in the site's search box. Result will be in the top 5. 

Thanks, but the link times out and won't open...

David's suggestion has become my go-to protocol:  https://my.ptg.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?GroupId=43&MID=639373&CommunityKey=6265a40b-9fd2-4152-a628-bd7c7d770cbf&tab=digestviewer

You could try a Sraight-Mate

Does anyone have any tips regarding reducing excessive false beats in the capo d'astro area of some grand pianos? It seems to happen most often with certain models of pianos, more than others. The false beats are not only annoying, but also hard to get a clean unison, and all the fidgeting makes rendering the string for a stable tuning difficult. 

String leveling, hammer fitting or CA glue on the bridge pins don't seem to do the trick in this case, for me at least. Has anyone had success with lowering string tension and lightly sanding the underside of the capo d'astro to remove the string grooves? Obviously, this is too time consuming for a standard tuning and not stable enough for just before a concert, so are there other simpler tricks, pre-concert that anyone has found helpful? Would a lubricant like Prolube at the contact point with the strings at the underside of the capo d'astro be safe and effective?

Back in about 2019 I had a client with a persistent string breakage problem on his Kawai RX-2.  I restrung the treble using Paulello XM wire, and while I was at it, reshaped the v-bar using David's protocol.  I did the whole job on site, and billed 5 hours of labor.  Maybe I spent a little more time than that, but maybe not.  I don't remember for sure.  In any case, the client was pleased with the result.

Carl,

I have a 20+ yr old Boston in my patient file that NEEDS this operation badly. When I took the pics to show the client the condition it was obvious that a previous tech had performed the "move the groove" dance in this area. The impressions were deep and the problem was back. Her eyes widened as she saw the mess. 

I'm not a fan of doing this in place...but maybe. The whole thing SHOULD be restrung as she's a heavy operator. But by the hour, the bill will be what the bill will be. I didn't create the problem, but I know how to cure it. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

I'm sure the protocol is very worthwhile, but as I'm not a rebuilder, I can't see myself ever going to that extent for this issue. I wonder if anyone has tried taking down the tension in the area slightly, and moving the strings one string width to the right, or just enough to get them out of the grooves, re-tensioning the strings, re-spacing and re-fitting the hammers to the strings? (Assuming the dampers are newer and would conform to the new string position.) They would eventually create new grooves in the v-bar, but it might give 10 or 20 years of improved tone....?

I only understood myself to have posted a single link. In any case, you can search for the post using the search term "situ" in the site's search box. Result will be in the top 5. 

Thanks, but the link times out and won't open...

David's suggestion has become my go-to protocol:  https://my.ptg.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?GroupId=43&MID=639373&CommunityKey=6265a40b-9fd2-4152-a628-bd7c7d770cbf&tab=digestviewer

You could try a Sraight-Mate

Does anyone have any tips regarding reducing excessive false beats in the capo d'astro area of some grand pianos? It seems to happen most often with certain models of pianos, more than others. The false beats are not only annoying, but also hard to get a clean unison, and all the fidgeting makes rendering the string for a stable tuning difficult. 

String leveling, hammer fitting or CA glue on the bridge pins don't seem to do the trick in this case, for me at least. Has anyone had success with lowering string tension and lightly sanding the underside of the capo d'astro to remove the string grooves? Obviously, this is too time consuming for a standard tuning and not stable enough for just before a concert, so are there other simpler tricks, pre-concert that anyone has found helpful? Would a lubricant like Prolube at the contact point with the strings at the underside of the capo d'astro be safe and effective?

Floyd,

You are a MONSTER to do all that in 5 hours. Incredible! 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Back in about 2019 I had a client with a persistent string breakage problem on his Kawai RX-2.  I restrung the treble using Paulello XM wire, and while I was at it, reshaped the v-bar using David's protocol.  I did the whole job on site, and billed 5 hours of labor.  Maybe I spent a little more time than that, but maybe not.  I don't remember for sure.  In any case, the client was pleased with the result.

Carl,

I have a 20+ yr old Boston in my patient file that NEEDS this operation badly. When I took the pics to show the client the condition it was obvious that a previous tech had performed the "move the groove" dance in this area. The impressions were deep and the problem was back. Her eyes widened as she saw the mess. 

I'm not a fan of doing this in place...but maybe. The whole thing SHOULD be restrung as she's a heavy operator. But by the hour, the bill will be what the bill will be. I didn't create the problem, but I know how to cure it. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

I'm sure the protocol is very worthwhile, but as I'm not a rebuilder, I can't see myself ever going to that extent for this issue. I wonder if anyone has tried taking down the tension in the area slightly, and moving the strings one string width to the right, or just enough to get them out of the grooves, re-tensioning the strings, re-spacing and re-fitting the hammers to the strings? (Assuming the dampers are newer and would conform to the new string position.) They would eventually create new grooves in the v-bar, but it might give 10 or 20 years of improved tone....?

I only understood myself to have posted a single link. In any case, you can search for the post using the search term "situ" in the site's search box. Result will be in the top 5. 

Thanks, but the link times out and won't open...

David's suggestion has become my go-to protocol:  https://my.ptg.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?GroupId=43&MID=639373&CommunityKey=6265a40b-9fd2-4152-a628-bd7c7d770cbf&tab=digestviewer

You could try a Sraight-Mate

Does anyone have any tips regarding reducing excessive false beats in the capo d'astro area of some grand pianos? It seems to happen most often with certain models of pianos, more than others. The false beats are not only annoying, but also hard to get a clean unison, and all the fidgeting makes rendering the string for a stable tuning difficult. 

String leveling, hammer fitting or CA glue on the bridge pins don't seem to do the trick in this case, for me at least. Has anyone had success with lowering string tension and lightly sanding the underside of the capo d'astro to remove the string grooves? Obviously, this is too time consuming for a standard tuning and not stable enough for just before a concert, so are there other simpler tricks, pre-concert that anyone has found helpful? Would a lubricant like Prolube at the contact point with the strings at the underside of the capo d'astro be safe and effective?

Does anyone have any tips regarding reducing excessive false beats in the capo d'astro area of some grand pianos? It seems to happen most often with certain models of pianos, more than others. The false beats are not only annoying, but also hard to get a clean unison, and all the fidgeting makes rendering the string for a stable tuning difficult. 

String leveling, hammer fitting or CA glue on the bridge pins don't seem to do the trick in this case, for me at least. Has anyone had success with lowering string tension and lightly sanding the underside of the capo d'astro to remove the string grooves? Obviously, this is too time consuming for a standard tuning and not stable enough for just before a concert, so are there other simpler tricks, pre-concert that anyone has found helpful? Would a lubricant like Prolube at the contact point with the strings at the underside of the capo d'astro be safe and effective?

------------------------------
Carl Radford, RPT

Radford Piano Services, Inc. | Chicago, Illinois
Ph: (773) 761-KEYS (5397) | Web: www.radfordpiano.com |
Email: radfordpiano@gmail.com |
------------------------------

------------------------------
"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, Nebraska
www.thattuningguy.com

Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2023 08:49
From: Carl Radford
Subject: Beating false beats in Capo d'astro area

Does anyone have any tips regarding reducing excessive false beats in the capo d'astro area of some grand pianos? It seems to happen most often with certain models of pianos, more than others. The false beats are not only annoying, but also hard to get a clean unison, and all the fidgeting makes rendering the string for a stable tuning difficult. 

String leveling, hammer fitting or CA glue on the bridge pins don't seem to do the trick in this case, for me at least. Has anyone had success with lowering string tension and lightly sanding the underside of the capo d'astro to remove the string grooves? Obviously, this is too time consuming for a standard tuning and not stable enough for just before a concert, so are there other simpler tricks, pre-concert that anyone has found helpful? Would a lubricant like Prolube at the contact point with the strings at the underside of the capo d'astro be safe and effective?

------------------------------
Carl Radford, RPT

Radford Piano Services, Inc. | Chicago, Illinois
Ph: (773) 761-KEYS (5397) | Web: www.radfordpiano.com |
Email: radfordpiano@gmail.com |
------------------------------

------------------------------
"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, Nebraska
www.thattuningguy.com

Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2023 08:49
From: Carl Radford
Subject: Beating false beats in Capo d'astro area

Does anyone have any tips regarding reducing excessive false beats in the capo d'astro area of some grand pianos? It seems to happen most often with certain models of pianos, more than others. The false beats are not only annoying, but also hard to get a clean unison, and all the fidgeting makes rendering the string for a stable tuning difficult. 

String leveling, hammer fitting or CA glue on the bridge pins don't seem to do the trick in this case, for me at least. Has anyone had success with lowering string tension and lightly sanding the underside of the capo d'astro to remove the string grooves? Obviously, this is too time consuming for a standard tuning and not stable enough for just before a concert, so are there other simpler tricks, pre-concert that anyone has found helpful? Would a lubricant like Prolube at the contact point with the strings at the underside of the capo d'astro be safe and effective?

------------------------------
Carl Radford, RPT

Radford Piano Services, Inc. | Chicago, Illinois
Ph: (773) 761-KEYS (5397) | Web: www.radfordpiano.com |
Email: radfordpiano@gmail.com |
------------------------------

Well, that's certainly the least invasive and most reversible of the solutions so far, and I'll definitely give it a try next time it comes up. I've muted out single notes in that area for clients complaining of zings or irritating, piercing overtones, but never the whole section. It seems like it might dampen too much of the sympathetic overtones in the non-speaking front portion for too much of a muted tone, but I'm sure more of that sympathetic resonance comes from the back end of the non-speaking length of the string anyway. Seems like the braiding would press the string more firmly on the v-bar, perhaps reducing the false beating? Anyway, if it comes up any time soon I'll give it a whirl, and if it's not what I'm looking for I may try moving the strings in a few notes to the right and re-spacing and re-fitting hammers to strings.

------------------------------
"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, Nebraska
www.thattuningguy.com

Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2023 08:49
From: Carl Radford
Subject: Beating false beats in Capo d'astro area

Does anyone have any tips regarding reducing excessive false beats in the capo d'astro area of some grand pianos? It seems to happen most often with certain models of pianos, more than others. The false beats are not only annoying, but also hard to get a clean unison, and all the fidgeting makes rendering the string for a stable tuning difficult. 

String leveling, hammer fitting or CA glue on the bridge pins don't seem to do the trick in this case, for me at least. Has anyone had success with lowering string tension and lightly sanding the underside of the capo d'astro to remove the string grooves? Obviously, this is too time consuming for a standard tuning and not stable enough for just before a concert, so are there other simpler tricks, pre-concert that anyone has found helpful? Would a lubricant like Prolube at the contact point with the strings at the underside of the capo d'astro be safe and effective?

------------------------------
Carl Radford, RPT

Radford Piano Services, Inc. | Chicago, Illinois
Ph: (773) 761-KEYS (5397) | Web: www.radfordpiano.com |
Email: radfordpiano@gmail.com |
------------------------------

Well, that's certainly the least invasive and most reversible of the solutions so far, and I'll definitely give it a try next time it comes up. I've muted out single notes in that area for clients complaining of zings or irritating, piercing overtones, but never the whole section. It seems like it might dampen too much of the sympathetic overtones in the non-speaking front portion for too much of a muted tone, but I'm sure more of that sympathetic resonance comes from the back end of the non-speaking length of the string anyway. Seems like the braiding would press the string more firmly on the v-bar, perhaps reducing the false beating? Anyway, if it comes up any time soon I'll give it a whirl, and if it's not what I'm looking for I may try moving the strings in a few notes to the right and re-spacing and re-fitting hammers to strings.

------------------------------
"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, Nebraska
www.thattuningguy.com

Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2023 08:49
From: Carl Radford
Subject: Beating false beats in Capo d'astro area

Does anyone have any tips regarding reducing excessive false beats in the capo d'astro area of some grand pianos? It seems to happen most often with certain models of pianos, more than others. The false beats are not only annoying, but also hard to get a clean unison, and all the fidgeting makes rendering the string for a stable tuning difficult. 

String leveling, hammer fitting or CA glue on the bridge pins don't seem to do the trick in this case, for me at least. Has anyone had success with lowering string tension and lightly sanding the underside of the capo d'astro to remove the string grooves? Obviously, this is too time consuming for a standard tuning and not stable enough for just before a concert, so are there other simpler tricks, pre-concert that anyone has found helpful? Would a lubricant like Prolube at the contact point with the strings at the underside of the capo d'astro be safe and effective?

------------------------------
Carl Radford, RPT

Radford Piano Services, Inc. | Chicago, Illinois
Ph: (773) 761-KEYS (5397) | Web: www.radfordpiano.com |
Email: radfordpiano@gmail.com |
------------------------------

------------------------------
"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, Nebraska
www.thattuningguy.com

Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2023 08:49
From: Carl Radford
Subject: Beating false beats in Capo d'astro area

Does anyone have any tips regarding reducing excessive false beats in the capo d'astro area of some grand pianos? It seems to happen most often with certain models of pianos, more than others. The false beats are not only annoying, but also hard to get a clean unison, and all the fidgeting makes rendering the string for a stable tuning difficult. 

String leveling, hammer fitting or CA glue on the bridge pins don't seem to do the trick in this case, for me at least. Has anyone had success with lowering string tension and lightly sanding the underside of the capo d'astro to remove the string grooves? Obviously, this is too time consuming for a standard tuning and not stable enough for just before a concert, so are there other simpler tricks, pre-concert that anyone has found helpful? Would a lubricant like Prolube at the contact point with the strings at the underside of the capo d'astro be safe and effective?

------------------------------
Carl Radford, RPT

Radford Piano Services, Inc. | Chicago, Illinois
Ph: (773) 761-KEYS (5397) | Web: www.radfordpiano.com |
Email: radfordpiano@gmail.com |
------------------------------

Norman,  I have been using thin key bushing felt cut in half lengthwise and tucked between individual front duplex sections, close to the tuning pins.  I use one inch long pieces. The narrow width and close position of the strips allows some duplex noise to bleed through but reduces it to bearable amounts.  Typically I put these in the worst segments, which usually end up being the two longest segments.  If I was going to do this to an entire section I would cut a longer strip down and weave or tuck in between strings close to the tuning pin contact point.

Since many of the nicer German and Austrian pianos I work on have straight front duplex sections with fewer problems I am somewhat skeptical of the benefits of "tuned" front duplex sections.  Interestingly enough, some of the recent high-end Kawai grands have had cleaner (better tuned?) duplex sections with fewer issues.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 390-0512

Original Message:
Sent: 11-19-2023 10:23
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Beating false beats in Capo d'astro area

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 11-08-2023 19:09
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: Beating false beats in Capo d'astro area

------------------------------
"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, Nebraska
www.thattuningguy.com

Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2023 08:49
From: Carl Radford
Subject: Beating false beats in Capo d'astro area

Does anyone have any tips regarding reducing excessive false beats in the capo d'astro area of some grand pianos? It seems to happen most often with certain models of pianos, more than others. The false beats are not only annoying, but also hard to get a clean unison, and all the fidgeting makes rendering the string for a stable tuning difficult. 

String leveling, hammer fitting or CA glue on the bridge pins don't seem to do the trick in this case, for me at least. Has anyone had success with lowering string tension and lightly sanding the underside of the capo d'astro to remove the string grooves? Obviously, this is too time consuming for a standard tuning and not stable enough for just before a concert, so are there other simpler tricks, pre-concert that anyone has found helpful? Would a lubricant like Prolube at the contact point with the strings at the underside of the capo d'astro be safe and effective?

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Carl Radford, RPT

Radford Piano Services, Inc. | Chicago, Illinois
Ph: (773) 761-KEYS (5397) | Web: www.radfordpiano.com |
Email: radfordpiano@gmail.com |
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I earlier posted a picture showing how I weave stringing braid into the area in front of the Capo bar to stop undesired sound leakage into the duplex scale. These two pictures of a Steinway Model B show the other approach I mentioned earlier, where some technicians use bushing felt to selectively achieve the same result. Note how there is also some felt selectively woven into the rear duplex scale to reduce vibrations (sorry, not the greatest picture) – is that a normal technique that you have also come across? Regards, Norman

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Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 11-20-2023 01:07
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: Beating false beats in Capo d'astro area

Norman,  I have been using thin key bushing felt cut in half lengthwise and tucked between individual front duplex sections, close to the tuning pins.  I use one inch long pieces. The narrow width and close position of the strips allows some duplex noise to bleed through but reduces it to bearable amounts.  Typically I put these in the worst segments, which usually end up being the two longest segments.  If I was going to do this to an entire section I would cut a longer strip down and weave or tuck in between strings close to the tuning pin contact point.

Since many of the nicer German and Austrian pianos I work on have straight front duplex sections with fewer problems I am somewhat skeptical of the benefits of "tuned" front duplex sections.  Interestingly enough, some of the recent high-end Kawai grands have had cleaner (better tuned?) duplex sections with fewer issues.

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Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 390-0512

Original Message:
Sent: 11-19-2023 10:23
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Beating false beats in Capo d'astro area

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Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321

Original Message:
Sent: 11-08-2023 19:09
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: Beating false beats in Capo d'astro area

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"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, Nebraska
www.thattuningguy.com

Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2023 08:49
From: Carl Radford
Subject: Beating false beats in Capo d'astro area

Does anyone have any tips regarding reducing excessive false beats in the capo d'astro area of some grand pianos? It seems to happen most often with certain models of pianos, more than others. The false beats are not only annoying, but also hard to get a clean unison, and all the fidgeting makes rendering the string for a stable tuning difficult. 

String leveling, hammer fitting or CA glue on the bridge pins don't seem to do the trick in this case, for me at least. Has anyone had success with lowering string tension and lightly sanding the underside of the capo d'astro to remove the string grooves? Obviously, this is too time consuming for a standard tuning and not stable enough for just before a concert, so are there other simpler tricks, pre-concert that anyone has found helpful? Would a lubricant like Prolube at the contact point with the strings at the underside of the capo d'astro be safe and effective?

------------------------------
Carl Radford, RPT

Radford Piano Services, Inc. | Chicago, Illinois
Ph: (773) 761-KEYS (5397) | Web: www.radfordpiano.com |
Email: radfordpiano@gmail.com |
------------------------------

Does anyone have any tips regarding reducing excessive false beats in the capo d'astro area of some grand pianos? It seems to happen most often with certain models of pianos, more than others. The false beats are not only annoying, but also hard to get a clean unison, and all the fidgeting makes rendering the string for a stable tuning difficult. 

String leveling, hammer fitting or CA glue on the bridge pins don't seem to do the trick in this case, for me at least. Has anyone had success with lowering string tension and lightly sanding the underside of the capo d'astro to remove the string grooves? Obviously, this is too time consuming for a standard tuning and not stable enough for just before a concert, so are there other simpler tricks, pre-concert that anyone has found helpful? Would a lubricant like Prolube at the contact point with the strings at the underside of the capo d'astro be safe and effective?

I have been reading this thread from its inception all the while I have been researching the false beat issue vigorously since the beginning of 2023. I found myself in a unique position. I have 60 years of piano service under my belt, I have a good education in physics, I have an extensive repair and machine shop, I have ready access to many pianos to destroy during experimentation, an endless stream of good quality new pianos out of the box to observe and a fleet of rental pianos from a couple years old to 23 years old to observe during the slow aging process. And lastly, I have listened to many technicians' comments on this issue. While I am close to finishing my research and submitting my findings to the Journal, I can say this. A false beat is caused by a condition where there is an imbalance in vertical to horizonal stiffness of the wire at its termination; either at the bridge and/or the capo, but most commonly at the bridge. This imbalance can also be a difference in termination stiffness from one end of the wire to the opposite end. Is there a 100% practical field remedy? Not yet.  <o:p></o:p>

Roger Gable

Does anyone have any tips regarding reducing excessive false beats in the capo d'astro area of some grand pianos? It seems to happen most often with certain models of pianos, more than others. The false beats are not only annoying, but also hard to get a clean unison, and all the fidgeting makes rendering the string for a stable tuning difficult. 

String leveling, hammer fitting or CA glue on the bridge pins don't seem to do the trick in this case, for me at least. Has anyone had success with lowering string tension and lightly sanding the underside of the capo d'astro to remove the string grooves? Obviously, this is too time consuming for a standard tuning and not stable enough for just before a concert, so are there other simpler tricks, pre-concert that anyone has found helpful? Would a lubricant like Prolube at the contact point with the strings at the underside of the capo d'astro be safe and effective?

Of course one must evaluate if the "problem" us actually a problem to the piano owner. Sometimes it's simply annoying to us as tuners and we think it's a problem for the owner.  It if they bring it to our attention because they don't like it, well now that's a different story. 

I recall Jim Ialeggio recounting a situation where he meticulously eliminated a high % of the "false beating" in a client's piano...he ultimately didn't like it. It had "lost" something...some character. Oops! 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

I have been reading this thread from its inception all the while I have been researching the false beat issue vigorously since the beginning of 2023. I found myself in a unique position. I have 60 years of piano service under my belt, I have a good education in physics, I have an extensive repair and machine shop, I have ready access to many pianos to destroy during experimentation, an endless stream of good quality new pianos out of the box to observe and a fleet of rental pianos from a couple years old to 23 years old to observe during the slow aging process. And lastly, I have listened to many technicians' comments on this issue. While I am close to finishing my research and submitting my findings to the Journal, I can say this. A false beat is caused by a condition where there is an imbalance in vertical to horizonal stiffness of the wire at its termination; either at the bridge and/or the capo, but most commonly at the bridge. This imbalance can also be a difference in termination stiffness from one end of the wire to the opposite end. Is there a 100% practical field remedy? Not yet.  <o:p></o:p>

Roger Gable

Does anyone have any tips regarding reducing excessive false beats in the capo d'astro area of some grand pianos? It seems to happen most often with certain models of pianos, more than others. The false beats are not only annoying, but also hard to get a clean unison, and all the fidgeting makes rendering the string for a stable tuning difficult. 

String leveling, hammer fitting or CA glue on the bridge pins don't seem to do the trick in this case, for me at least. Has anyone had success with lowering string tension and lightly sanding the underside of the capo d'astro to remove the string grooves? Obviously, this is too time consuming for a standard tuning and not stable enough for just before a concert, so are there other simpler tricks, pre-concert that anyone has found helpful? Would a lubricant like Prolube at the contact point with the strings at the underside of the capo d'astro be safe and effective?

Of course one must evaluate if the "problem" us actually a problem to the piano owner. Sometimes it's simply annoying to us as tuners and we think it's a problem for the owner.  It if they bring it to our attention because they don't like it, well now that's a different story. 

I recall Jim Ialeggio recounting a situation where he meticulously eliminated a high % of the "false beating" in a client's piano...he ultimately didn't like it. It had "lost" something...some character. Oops! 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

I have been reading this thread from its inception all the while I have been researching the false beat issue vigorously since the beginning of 2023. I found myself in a unique position. I have 60 years of piano service under my belt, I have a good education in physics, I have an extensive repair and machine shop, I have ready access to many pianos to destroy during experimentation, an endless stream of good quality new pianos out of the box to observe and a fleet of rental pianos from a couple years old to 23 years old to observe during the slow aging process. And lastly, I have listened to many technicians' comments on this issue. While I am close to finishing my research and submitting my findings to the Journal, I can say this. A false beat is caused by a condition where there is an imbalance in vertical to horizonal stiffness of the wire at its termination; either at the bridge and/or the capo, but most commonly at the bridge. This imbalance can also be a difference in termination stiffness from one end of the wire to the opposite end. Is there a 100% practical field remedy? Not yet.  <o:p></o:p>

Roger Gable

Does anyone have any tips regarding reducing excessive false beats in the capo d'astro area of some grand pianos? It seems to happen most often with certain models of pianos, more than others. The false beats are not only annoying, but also hard to get a clean unison, and all the fidgeting makes rendering the string for a stable tuning difficult. 

String leveling, hammer fitting or CA glue on the bridge pins don't seem to do the trick in this case, for me at least. Has anyone had success with lowering string tension and lightly sanding the underside of the capo d'astro to remove the string grooves? Obviously, this is too time consuming for a standard tuning and not stable enough for just before a concert, so are there other simpler tricks, pre-concert that anyone has found helpful? Would a lubricant like Prolube at the contact point with the strings at the underside of the capo d'astro be safe and effective?

Peter, a number of years ago a factory technician from a major piano manufacture came to Seattle to present their regulation specifications and other product developments. When asked about the pervasive false beats in their products he said exactly what you said. It's a non-issue with most of their buyers. Several technicians grimaced at the comment. That stance is a conflict of our ideas. A false beat sounds exactly like an out of tune unison.  We must ask ourselves. Shall we be sloppy with our unison tuning believing our customers don't view it as a problem?

Of course one must evaluate if the "problem" us actually a problem to the piano owner. Sometimes it's simply annoying to us as tuners and we think it's a problem for the owner.  It if they bring it to our attention because they don't like it, well now that's a different story. 

I recall Jim Ialeggio recounting a situation where he meticulously eliminated a high % of the "false beating" in a client's piano...he ultimately didn't like it. It had "lost" something...some character. Oops! 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

I have been reading this thread from its inception all the while I have been researching the false beat issue vigorously since the beginning of 2023. I found myself in a unique position. I have 60 years of piano service under my belt, I have a good education in physics, I have an extensive repair and machine shop, I have ready access to many pianos to destroy during experimentation, an endless stream of good quality new pianos out of the box to observe and a fleet of rental pianos from a couple years old to 23 years old to observe during the slow aging process. And lastly, I have listened to many technicians' comments on this issue. While I am close to finishing my research and submitting my findings to the Journal, I can say this. A false beat is caused by a condition where there is an imbalance in vertical to horizonal stiffness of the wire at its termination; either at the bridge and/or the capo, but most commonly at the bridge. This imbalance can also be a difference in termination stiffness from one end of the wire to the opposite end. Is there a 100% practical field remedy? Not yet.  <o:p></o:p>

Roger Gable

Does anyone have any tips regarding reducing excessive false beats in the capo d'astro area of some grand pianos? It seems to happen most often with certain models of pianos, more than others. The false beats are not only annoying, but also hard to get a clean unison, and all the fidgeting makes rendering the string for a stable tuning difficult. 

String leveling, hammer fitting or CA glue on the bridge pins don't seem to do the trick in this case, for me at least. Has anyone had success with lowering string tension and lightly sanding the underside of the capo d'astro to remove the string grooves? Obviously, this is too time consuming for a standard tuning and not stable enough for just before a concert, so are there other simpler tricks, pre-concert that anyone has found helpful? Would a lubricant like Prolube at the contact point with the strings at the underside of the capo d'astro be safe and effective?