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Best Piano Hygrometer

  • 1.  Best Piano Hygrometer

    Member
    Posted 10-18-2022 10:37
    What is the best hygrometer to set on top of a customer's piano while you're tuning so you can jot down an accurate RH reading when you're done?  I've always really trusted the one I have that cost about $10, but they don't make them anymore.  It's gone years and years without a battery change.  Does it make sense to spend more?  Thanks

    ------------------------------
    Andrew Warden
    Evanston IL
    (224) 420-1773
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  • 2.  RE: Best Piano Hygrometer

    Member
    Posted 10-18-2022 11:05
    There are a number of these products on the market under $20 typically. I like Acurite as a brand and had one with an outdoor temp and humidity sensor both running off batteries. I would place the outdoor sensor outside on a porch and get high and low readings while I was there. Same thing inside. I paid more than $20 but it gave more information. These units are good for general readings and are not precision instruments but at least you get a decent ballpark reading. One source retail is Ace Hardware another in the garden section at Home Depot and Lowes.  For more accurite and precise readings it is worth looking at a data logger and recorder. There are some that work with Apple products and others that work with PC's . A number of newer models are wireless as well. A good tip for you is to compare what the customers thermostat reads for temperature vs the gauge

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Best Piano Hygrometer

    Member
    Posted 10-18-2022 11:13
    Thanks James!  Do you know whether or not it's true that hygrometers lose accuracy as they get older?

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    Andrew Warden
    Evanston IL
    (224) 420-1773
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  • 4.  RE: Best Piano Hygrometer

    Member
    Posted 10-18-2022 20:14
    the inexpensive devices become less accurate with time and should be replaced. The more accurate reading you need the more the device will cost. For example some of the data loggers are used to monitor food in transit, in storage, in freezers and must be extremely accurate. Same thing for medicines, sensitive electronics etc.
    All you need for measuring rh while you are tuning a piano in a home is a basic temp/rh instrument. However if you have a rebuilding shop, work on soundboards, actions in your shop you want more accurate instruments.

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Best Piano Hygrometer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-18-2022 12:22
    Here is a link to Amazon for the one I use. It's an AcuRite and only about $17. Hygrometers are sensitive to how their sensors are behaving and usually provide readings that are close to meaningless. I chose this one because the hygrometer can be easily calibrated using the wet salt method. Also, the batteries last an extraordinarily long time.

    https://a.co/d/hTMPKoc

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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 6.  RE: Best Piano Hygrometer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-18-2022 13:06
    You want the best? It will cost you …. https://www.thermoworks.com/therma-hygrometer-6002/
    $119

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Draine RPT
    Billerica MA
    (978) 663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Best Piano Hygrometer

    Posted 10-18-2022 14:17
    If you want to ditch electronics(made with fossil fuels) and the batteries ( deep polluting mining) to give a smaller footprint and help save the planet. You can use a simple RH gauge and a conversion chart. I use this method on my kiln and it's been pretty reliable. 
    Regards,
    -chris






  • 8.  RE: Best Piano Hygrometer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-18-2022 17:13
    If you want accurate.
    https://www.supplycache.com/products/sling-psychrometer-red-filled-weksler?variant=18168802410585&currency=USD&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Best Piano Hygrometer

    Posted 10-18-2022 17:27
    The only guaranteed true reading is from a Sling Psychrometer. Never needs recalibrating but may need thermometer replacements from time to time.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Best Piano Hygrometer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-18-2022 21:21
    Jon went:
    "Never needs recalibrating but may need thermometer replacements from time to time."

    I used one for a couple years, and wore my arm out. Slinging is vigorous exercize.

    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Best Piano Hygrometer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-19-2022 09:26
    Here's the Thermo-temp hygrometer I carry:

    The question is, how accurate does one need?





  • 12.  RE: Best Piano Hygrometer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-19-2022 12:01
    > The question is, how accurate does one need?

    When checking temp and humidity in a customers home, at the piano, when you are there to tune, I don't believe accuracy is nearly as important as change. If on your last visit you got a reading of, say, 30% RH, and on todays visit you got a reading of, say, 65%, then the only important information to take away from those readings is that there has been a 35% change in RH.

    It's important to understand that those readings are only valuable as long as you use the same hygrometer for all your readings. If you change hygrometers between readings, they will likely give you different uncalibrated results, and therefor meaningless data to compare. If you are really concerned about accuracy, the hygrometer I recommended is, first of all, cheap. But because it is one you can calibrate yourself it is always going to be around ±1 to 2% accurate. Way more accurate than we need to monitor simple change in someone's home. 

    These inexpensive calibratable hygrometers are really popular with high end cigar smokers who want to make sure their humidor is keeping their stash at the best temp/humidity. The calibration procedure is incredibly simple and can be found on any cigar focused site. 


    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Best Piano Hygrometer

    Posted 10-19-2022 07:53
    Temperature & Humidity Data Loggers | Omega Engineering
    Omega remove preview
    Temperature & Humidity Data Loggers | Omega Engineering
    Added to Your Shopping Cart Added to Your Shopping Cart Added to Your Shopping Cart Added to Your Shopping Cart Added to Your Shopping Cart Added to Your Shopping Cart Added to Your Shopping Cart Added to Your Shopping Cart Added to Your Shopping Cart Added to Your Shopping Cart Added to Your Shopping Cart Added to Your Shopping Cart Added to Your Shopping Cart Added to Your Shopping Cart Added to Your Shopping Cart Added to Your Shopping Cart Added to Your Shopping Cart Added to Your Shopping Cart Added to Your Shopping Cart Added to Your Shopping Cart
    View this on Omega >
    https://www.omega.com/en-us/temperature-measurement/c/temperature-and-humidity-data-loggers

    they have a whole line

    ------------------------------
    Les Koltvedt
    Marietta GA
    lkpianos@gmail.com
    https://www.lkpianos.com
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Best Piano Hygrometer

    Posted 10-23-2022 07:18
    I have central a/c (oversized, it came with the house) as well as a dehumidifier that runs 24/7 but my concrete block house here in Florida is rarely below 70% RH in the summer. My tuner complained when he visited in August.

    I've replaced the aluminum jalousie windows that didn't close all the way with double-hung vinyl that does.
    I have a chimney that does not close, cracks under the door, and a mail slot for my front door as well as three large dogs who are constantly wanting to go in and out of the house.
    A damp-chaser would be like putting a band-aid on a gaping wound.

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    Jasm Charl
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  • 15.  RE: Best Piano Hygrometer

    Member
    Posted 10-23-2022 10:35
    I suggest you undergo an energy audit by your utility company or hire a person qualified and equipped to evaluate air flow, exchange rates , hvac efficiency, duct work.
    70% rh is well above the danger zone for pianos - refer to the literature/booklet that Dampp-Chaser publishes. I am surprised you do not have a mold problem . The HVAC could be the problem and in need of full overhaul and the duct work could be leaking or not properly distributed to balance . I also think you need to get the chimney repaired/replaced/sealed. There must be a tremendous updraft sucking up the air conditioned air and letting in humid moisture laden air. How are your electric bills ?
    Until you fix the environment a dampp chaser is useless

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Best Piano Hygrometer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-23-2022 22:08
    Yes, in fact an oversized AC unit does not run long enough to effectively dehumidify the air and ends up pumping cool MOIST air throughout the house. 

    It is counterintuitive, but I learned this from an HVAC installer in Virginia. He advised that it should actually be slightly undersized so as to work longer and remove more humidity. He was correct. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 17.  RE: Best Piano Hygrometer

    Member
    Posted 10-24-2022 19:07
    Hello All.

    In a previous iteration of my life, I did disaster restoration and repair which provided me valuable experience with thermo-hygrometers.  The device we used was the Extech 445580.  Why did my employer choose this device?  Because of it's RANGE.  It accurately displays the RH from 0-100%.  Other, less expensive devices do not go down to 0% RH. They stop at 20-25% RH.  A device that stops at 20% RH is fine for those that live in areas that do not get very dry but of you are in a desert or super cold/dry climate, you need something that goes lower.  

    When I go to the mountain communities I serve in Northern Utah, I frequently find RH in the single digits during the winter.  The lowest I have recorded is 6.9% RH.  (Side note: I verified that reading with a second device.)   

    These devices range from $60-$100 depending on where you find it.  Amazon has typically been the cheapest.

    Now to answer the other, REAL question. 

    Just how exact do you REALLY need to be? 

    The truth is, a one time reading does not matter.  It only gives you a snapshot of the current conditions.  It does not tell you if the RH is going up or going down.  You must develop a series of readings over time to have any value to taking the readings.  That way you can determine a trend that you may need to take into consideration when tuning a piano.  (To float or not to float the pitch.)

    A good rule of thumb to follow is this:

    When humidity goes up, pitch goes up. 
    When humidity goes down, pitch goes down.
    When temperature goes up, pitch goes down.
    When temperature goes down, pitch goes up.

    Humidity is slow acting.
    Temperature is fast acting.

    The wood has to soak the moisture into the wood or give off the moisture within the wood. That takes time. At least compared to the metal components in a piano.  The metal components will generally stabilize at a new temperature in a few hours.  Wood takes days or weeks to stabilize depending on the amount of change required.

    Remember, That is a rule of thumb based on circumstances, environments, and individual instruments.

    ------------------------------
    Randi Ford
    Ogden UT
    (801) 645-5668
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Best Piano Hygrometer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-24-2022 21:50

    I mostly agree with Randi, but, for the sake of obsessive nit-pickiness, would clarify a few details about the Extech products he mentions.  The 445580 has a stated range between 10%-90%, which is still adequate for the most likely environments to be encountered.  It's accuracy, however, is cited as +/- 5%, which is wider than the same company's Model RH390 (+/-2%)($200), the Thermoworks 6002 (+/-2%; 0-100°; $119.00) or even the ThermoPro TP50 (+/-2 or 3% 10-99°; $11.99).  Of course, how do you know if they actually conform to the specs, or for how long?  You have to be able to calibrate your working devices to some standard of which you have unabiding faith.

    Ultimately, it's as he said: it memorialized the moment during which you're tuning.  ​



    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    (917) 589-2625
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  • 19.  RE: Best Piano Hygrometer

    Member
    Posted 10-24-2022 22:14
    As I am not familiar with other brands, there is one feature I know exists with the model I reference.  You can purchase calibration bottles from the manufacturer that allow you to calibrate the device any time you want.  The bottles are certified as is the device whenever the calibration is done per instructions and documented.  Insurance companies required us to use certified equipment and these devices met their standards.

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    Randi Ford
    Ogden UT
    (801) 645-5668
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  • 20.  RE: Best Piano Hygrometer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-24-2022 22:42
    Thanks Randi - That's useful to know.

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    (917) 589-2625
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  • 21.  RE: Best Piano Hygrometer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-24-2022 23:28
    Here is a link to the instructions I use to calibrate my hygrometer:

    https://www.famous-smoke.com/cigaradvisor/how-do-you-calibrate-a-hygrometer

    Yeah, it's a cigar site, but calibrated is calibrated. While this device may not qualify for insurance work, it claims to have an RH accuracy of ±2%, and a range of 1% - 99%. Considering the price I'm not sure I believe either of these claims, but for monitoring the environment in customers homes for the purpose of documenting change over time, it's  probably close enough. It's also only $14. Not that much more than an acceptable cigar. 

    Randi - Thanks for the "Rule of thumb".

    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 22.  RE: Best Piano Hygrometer

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-25-2022 11:51
    Randi,
    According to the Extech website, this model Extech 445580 only has a range from 10-90% RH. Given that, I might opt for the smaller, less expensive model 44550. 
    I like to be able to recommend affordable units for my clients to monitor the area around their pianos. If too costly, they probably won't get one. 

    Has anyone tried the smaller one? 
    Regards,
    ~ jeannie 

    Jeannie Grassi
    PTG Registered Piano Technician 
    Bainbridge Island, WA
    206-842-3721





  • 23.  RE: Best Piano Hygrometer

    Member
    Posted 10-25-2022 12:24
      |   view attached
    Ok. I guess I better clarify what I said.  On the model I listed the CERTIFIED low  range is 10% RH.  HOWEVER, the unit will display readings down to 0% RH.  The other units I tried 14 years ago, when I went into business, DID NOT display readings below 20% RH. 

    I will grant the reader that things may have and probably have changed in that time so more units read lower. 

    I am sorry for any confusion I have created.  

    The bottom line is this:

    If you live in an area that the RH NEVER gets below 20% RH, it does not matter what unit you use.

    The bottom, bottom line is this:
    A single reading does nothing for you if you don't have something to compare it to.  You must have more readings to develop an understanding of the trends of the environment the piano is in.  

    The attached photo demonstrates a pattern that could be calculated if need be.





  • 24.  RE: Best Piano Hygrometer

    Posted 10-24-2022 00:44
    Jasm,

    It's my understanding that an oversized central A/C unit will have a short on cycle duration due to it's overly effective ability to cool. This short cycle time will reduce the dehumidification of the A/C system. Dehumidification will be improved with a smaller, critically sized A/C system with a longer on cycle time. The drawback of a critically sized A/C will be slow cooling from a high indoor temperature if the temperature is allowed to rise due to the system being off for some period of time etc. or from a period of extreme heat or other higher cooling load like a large party with the place filled with guests. YMMV
         
    Gary Messling






  • 25.  RE: Best Piano Hygrometer

    Member
    Posted 10-25-2022 18:38
    I have 3 Lascar units that have paid for themselves because they convinced piano owners they needed to have their HVAC evaluated or purchase a Dammp Chaser or a woolen string cover. Because they capture measurements 24 x 7 moments apart they show what is going on in the middle of the night, heat waves or cold snaps. The software gives scientific proof with both numbers and graphs. The problem with a written log is that they are just snap shots during a visit. What happens between visits ?

    I will put a logger in a piano when it is in a questionable environment, the piano is unstable, there is a musty/mildew odor, the piano is near the ocean or marsh, the temp and rh is uncomfortable....two weeks of data log readings is very revealing

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    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Best Piano Hygrometer

    Posted 10-25-2022 20:55
    24/7 has been my attitude. The unit that sits on the piano and only noticed a few times a week does no good. Churches are the worst.

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    Les Koltvedt
    Marietta GA
    (404) 631-7177
    lkpianos@gmail.com
    https://www.lkpianos.com
    ------------------------------