CAUT

  • 1.  CAUT Dust Collection/Humidity Control

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 20 days ago

    Hi CAUT members!

    I am trying to do some research about what other schools are doing for 1) Dust Collection/ventilation in their shop 2) Humidity control.

    If you have a woodshop/workshop for your university (or even at home), what is your method for dust collection? 

    Especially for people in low-humidity environments, do you use Dampp- Chaser's? Room Humidifiers? Thoughts and Prayers?

    Thanks!

    Robert



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    Robert Wilkinson RPT
    Rochester NY
    (706) 945-4496
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  • 2.  RE: CAUT Dust Collection/Humidity Control

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 20 days ago

    Cheapest way to go, at least in the short run, is "thoughts and prayers". Otherwise, it would help to be more specific, as your 'short' question accommodates much of existence as we know it.  Are you asking about practice rooms for Dampchasers/humidifiers or shop or performance spaces?  What sort of existing ventilation do you have?  A central system would severely limit the efficacy of a local humidifier.  The type of space and existing levels would be useful to know.

    As for dust, the question is: what are you doing or wanting to do?  What kind of shop operations are you doing or hoping to do?  You would want to be able to accommodate cleaning, hammer filing, wood dust generated by either hand or machine operations, aerosolized materials such as chemicals, glue fumes, etc.  Also want to have flammable storage under legitimate control.

    So, what's your dream?



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    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    (917) 589-2625
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  • 3.  RE: CAUT Dust Collection/Humidity Control

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 18 days ago

    Hi David,

    Those are great questions! 

    We do a lot of action rebuilding in our shop, so a few saws and sanders are the main source of dust, and chemical/glue fumes as you mentioned from gluing hammers on WNG shanks, doing minor finish repairs, and whatnot. 
    I don't have a dream really other than making it better, and I brought it to my boss who asked me to do some research on what other universities do in their shops. I guess a centralized system would be ideal, but that seems expensive and impractical.



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    Robert Wilkinson RPT
    Rochester NY
    (706) 945-4496
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  • 4.  RE: CAUT Dust Collection/Humidity Control

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 18 days ago

    Small 2hp cyclone for dust. 1 hp fume exhaust should do.



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    Parker Leigh RPT
    Winchester VA
    (540) 722-3865
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  • 5.  RE: CAUT Dust Collection/Humidity Control

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 17 days ago
    Robert,

    You also asked about humidity control. In my own experience with Dampp-chaser systems I found that they were not very effective in controlling RH associated tuning swings, particularly in grands. I did find that installing just a low RH humidistat and heating rods in uprights made a noticeable difference - definitely helpful - but note that that is a closed space which includes the bridges.

    I installed full systems in two grands in a high priority piano prof studio, and its effect was pretty minimal. Adding an undercover made little if any difference. 

    I participated in a beta test of a new system maybe 15-20 years ago. It sealed the bottom of the piano with plastic (taped to the bottom of the rim with duct tape), and included sealing the nose bolt holes with foam. A data logger within the sealed space showed an amazingly steady RH. I had a humidistat set to 35%, and it deviate no more than + or - 1% from that standard. This was installed on a Kawai RX2, one of the most RH sensitive pianos in my inventory, with the usual unison phenomenon (difference between right and left string of the unison) and plate strut issues (tenor and different sides of treble strut).

    Result: I didn't notice any perceptible difference in the type or size of the pitch migration pattern. Once I had established that over the period of a year, I started experimenting with string covers, first using the open weave of under covers, then using a fairly thick pure wool cloth. Again, not effective. When I logged the RH under the cover and compared it to ambient room RH, I found next to no difference. I concluded that probably most of the RH associated pitch swing phenomena probably occur at the bridge by some as yet undetermined mechanism (I suspect the bridge pins moving with the wood, hence changing the degree of offset as the string crosses the bridge, is part of the picture). That is, if keeping the RH at the bottom of the soundboard very stable made no perceptible difference, it couldn't be the soundboard that was the major factor. What's left? The bridge. (Well, and, the pinblock, but I had eliminated the pinblock as a factor many years earlier, at least for the unison drift issue)

    I was frankly very surprised as well as disappointed. In any case, I came to believe in controlling the room RH as really the only effective option.

    This was in a building with a fairly robust HVAC system (no functioning RH control - originally installed with one, but had died before I came on the scene), so the air exchange is pretty rapid, as is typical in almost all public buildings.

    I suspect others may have other experiences, but those are mine FWIW, over a period of 30 years. Experience with private clients is similar, though I never see those pianos as often, so know less of what happens seasonally.


    Regards,
    Youtube Spotify Deezer Apple Amazon
    www.artoftuning.com
    http://fredsturm.net
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda






  • 6.  RE: CAUT Dust Collection/Humidity Control

    Posted 17 days ago

    Hi Fred

    In your particular case, how frequently did/do you see the piano and what is the expected cent/pitch deviation? 
    - Garret



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    Garret Traylor
    Trinity NC
    (336) 887-4266
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  • 7.  RE: CAUT Dust Collection/Humidity Control

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 17 days ago
    Hi Garret,
    I tuned the pianos six or more times a year. The two grands with systems installed, Steinway Bs in the head piano prof's office, would typically have a pitch change that would be 25¢ sharp after the summer RH rise to 60% around the beginning of August for the low tenor strings (maximum pitch change). That would then reverse during the rest of the year.

    The other piano, the RX2 with the beta test system, would typically have 40¢ pitch excursions at the low tenor, and unison pattern left/right string variances of 10-15¢ in octaves 5 and 6 (less in other areas).

    That is what I would face before the semester began. Tunings were timed so that subsequent periods would have far less extreme tuning problems. But that was the general pattern for all pianos under my care, for the 35 years I worked there. Typical RH cycle of 10% or under in the winter, 60% in late summer/early fall. I'm sure others have wider extremes.

    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    fssturm@comcast.net
    Youtube Spotify Deezer Apple Amazon 
    http://fredsturm.net
    www.artoftuning.com
    "All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone. " Blaise Pascal

















  • 8.  RE: CAUT Dust Collection/Humidity Control

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 17 days ago

    Just to weigh in in support of what Fred said about controlling the room being the way to go…

    We have four MIDI grands. We have had humidistats and drying rods on them ever since they arrived on campus, decades ago, to try and lower the ceiling on moisture absorption by hydroscopic materials in these pianos. However, due to the presence of electronics, the manufacturer advises against having the humidification part of the system in the form of water tanks suspended under the soundboard.

    We have a very dry season, and a wetter wet season and what Fred described. In addition, for much of the year, we have daily swings of relative of humidity of 40% to 60%.

    Since adding a room humidifier to the rooms of those MIDI grands that are not in concert halls, our experience corroborates what Fred reports. Once a month, we rate our pianos for relative in/out of tune-ed-ness, so we have a snapshot of which pianos are more and which are less out of tune. This was last done a few days ago and one of the pianos in a room with a room humidifier received our highest rating, despite the fact that it last received a tuning an entire year ago. For a tuning to last a month or two in this environment is considered an achievement.



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    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
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  • 9.  RE: CAUT Dust Collection/Humidity Control

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 16 days ago

    Robert -

    As you see, to get the most of inquiries you post, you have to be proactive.   Most of the responses thus far address your tagged-on question about humidity control rather than dust control of the shop setting.  Since Fred and Alan (and others) have shared their well-curated experience on the efficacy of humidity control, I'd look more at the shop issue(s).

    What are you currently doing regarding both actual shop function and any attempted air quality mitigation?    Do you:

    • blow out actions (also soundboards and pianos)
    • file hammers
    • machinery:
      • wood dust: band saw; table saw; belt sander;
      • metal dust: grinders; 
    • hand tools
    • spraying solvents, finishes
    • have windows
    • what is heating/cooling source
    • electrical capacity of shop

    Look at some options like here:

    https://www.rockler.com/jet-reg-afs-2000-air-filtration-system-w-remote-control-3-speed?zCountry=US&promo=shopping



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    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    (917) 589-2625
    ------------------------------