I would suggest this as a cautionary tale: most other instruments are different from modern pianos in one of several ways, as it relates to tuning. So I would suggest setting aside our finely-honed and highly skilled sense of "in tune" when approaching them. Schiedmayer has been making keyboard instruments for a very long time. They probably know what they are doing. So before changing anything it might be best to consult them. Yamaha has also been making musical instruments longer than any of us have been around. They have the resources to do a lot of research. So, again, I'd recommend checking with them before messing with stuff. I've serviced 4 different celestas (I don't advertise that, as they really are different from pianos). In the process, I had the pleasure of working with Elianne Schiedmayer. She was very helpful in providing some parts and materials for a significant rebuild/regulation process on their instrument here in Seattle. (The others were Mustel, Richard Burrows, and one with no name that I could find: all very different in details of the action.) In the process of trying to improve those, I came to the impression that having the celesta "sharp" was an asset, musically. I would not presume to judge, but one might do well to listen to the tuning in orchestra rather than as a piano tech. The tuning can be changed, as indicated, by grinding or adding mass (solder). I was advised to have it done by the pros. Those who also build and/or work on other metal-bar instruments. Apparently there is (surprise) a bit more to it than meets the eye. And ear.
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Douglas Wood RPT
Seattle WA
(206) 935-5797
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Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2022 05:33
From: Thomas Servinsky
Subject: celeste
I've had the opportunity to work on 2 Jenco celestes. They are the Chevrolet knock-off version of the more expensive celeste. They were tuned to A440 and if my memory serves me correctly, I was able to even up the tuning by grinding the bars to raise the pitch. And then we added solder to lower the pitch.
Tom Servinsky
Registered Piano Technician
Concert Artist Piano Technician
Director/Conductor- Academy Orchestra
Managing Conductor-Treasure Coast Youth Symphony
Clarinetist-Atlantic Classical Orchestra
tompiano@tomservinsky.com
Website: tomservinsky.com
772 221 1011 office
772 260 7110 cell
Original Message:
Sent: 9/15/2022 12:45:00 PM
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: RE: celeste
Yamaha only has one instrument, called
Celesta or Keyed Glockenspiel. Look at the site, click on the models, you can see photos that show the mechanism. It is available only at 442. I checked into all this pretty thoroughly when UNM band bought one.
As far as I know, Schiedmayer has a monopoly on real celestas at this point. There are a few used instruments out there occasionally. If someone knows something different, has access to different information, I'd like to know about it, but I have reached dead ends in all my attempts to research alternatives.
It needs to be down striking because of the nature of the tone bars, which are held by gravity on two wedges of hammer felt (or similar) and held in positioned bushed pins that go through holes in the bar. There is a resonance chamber below the bars, graduated in size depending on the size of the bar (like on a marimba). Those things make striking upward impossible.
Because the tone bars are wider than the keys, they also need to be arrayed in tiers, which explains how convoluted they are to service.
I guess Yamaha suspends the tone bars somehow above the keys, but I never opened it up enough to see the details (probably held by strings through lateral holes, with some structure to keep them separated and at the same level. They also put a kind of resonance chamber above the bars. Definitely not the same sound.
I've worked on four makes, myself: Mustel (the original maker from France), Cromwell (an English make), Jenco (an American percussion firm that started the vibraphone, I believe), and Schiedmayer. Each has a somewhat different mechanism. Only the Schiedmayer company still exists. The orchestras in Santa Fe and Albuquerque make do with the three non-Schiedmayer instruments, all of which are quite long in the tooth (60-80 years old).
Steve Carver is no longer connected with Schiemayer. He wrote the original English language manual, and I think the company has since added more detail.
Original Message:
Sent: 9/15/2022 12:14:00 PM
From: Kenneth Walkup
Subject: RE: celeste
Hi Richard,
I didn't mean to imply that Yamaha only makes a keyed glockenspiel, and not a true celeste. I was relating a tragicomic story. And also, Yamaha probably does make the same instrument pitched at 440, intended for the US market. I assume the one Cornell purchased was meant for the European market.
It has been a while, but I was able to find and download a Scheidmeyer service manual, I assume that is still possible.
Ken
Original Message:
Sent: 9/15/2022 11:40:00 AM
From: Richard West
Subject: RE: celeste
Hi, Fred
Thanks for the information. Does anyone but Schiedmayer make a "real" celesta? Schiedmayer is definitely the gold standard, and priced that way. It's understandable that universities would look at how much a Schiedmayer costs, and opt for Yamaha. I looked at the Schiedmayer web site and discovered they also make a keyed glockenspiel.
Why are Yamahas tuned to 442? Do pianos have to be tuned to match 442? I presume that in some acoustically weird way, a piano at 440 could possibly be okay when played with a 442-tuned celesta/glockenspiel/bell.
Does a celesta have to have a downstriking action? Is that part of what makes the tone of the Schiedmayer more nuanced and "better" sounding. Would putting wider bars in a Yamaha celesta make it more like the sound of Schiedmayer?
Is Steve Carver still the US service guy for Schiedmayer?
Richard West
Original Message:
Sent: 9/15/2022 10:39:00 AM
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: RE: celeste
That Yamaha instrument is what they sell as a celesta. The UNM band purchased one (without consulting me), and it is, as Ken says, really a keyed glockenspiel.
Celestas have a tone bar far wider than a key (i'd guess about 2 - 2 1/2", not having one to measure) , which means they need to be staggered on three layers to fit. The Yamaha has narrow tone bars that are as wide as a key (= 1/2" or so). Since they are the width of a key, they can place a standard grand piano action under it rather than use a down striking mechanism with wire stickers.
And, yes, like all Yamaha percussion instruments, it is tuned to 442.
The tone is a faint imitation of a celesta's, with far less depth and carry. IMO, you might as well use a celesta stop on an electronic keyboard.
Regards,
Fred Sturm
"Since everything is in our heads, we had better not lose them." Coco Chanel
Original Message:
Sent: 9/15/2022 9:17:00 AM
From: Kenneth Walkup
Subject: celeste
About 15 years ago, Cornell decided to buy a new celeste. The person in charge got us an instrument from Yamaha that sounded rather different from the Schiedmaier we already had. It turned out that she had bought a keyboard operated glockenspiel, not a celeste, and to make it worse, it was at 442 not 440. They still have it.
Ken