Pianotech

Of course the "standard" number of coils on a tuning pin is 3 or 3.5. However I have seen stringing jobs with 4, 5, and I think I saw one once with 6 coils on the pins in the treble.  (It seems to me that this is kind of a European thing).

My question for comment is: What are the pros or cons of adding coils beyond the standard of 3? Anyone know?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 8/18/2022 5:05:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Coils...and more coils

Of course the "standard" number of coils on a tuning pin is 3 or 3.5. However I have seen stringing jobs with 4, 5, and I think I saw one once with 6 coils on the pins in the treble.  (It seems to me that this is kind of a European thing).

My question for comment is: What are the pros or cons of adding coils beyond the standard of 3? Anyone know?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

The more coils you have the less clearance there is to the plate which could haunt you if the pins need a slight tap to tighten. More coils could also deflect the string angle and an extra wrap may make it impossible to get a lifter tool under the coils to tighten the wrap. I am not sure if extra coils will make it harder to move the pin or increase the odds of breaking strings...

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
(843) 325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-18-2022 18:59
From: John Zeiner
Subject: Coils...and more coils

Older Steinways had 3 coils, except the high treble section which had four coils.

I think they might have done this for cosmetic reasons.

Does it matter if it is four or five coils, I don't think so.

John

Original Message:
Sent: 8/18/2022 5:05:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Coils...and more coils

Of course the "standard" number of coils on a tuning pin is 3 or 3.5. However I have seen stringing jobs with 4, 5, and I think I saw one once with 6 coils on the pins in the treble.  (It seems to me that this is kind of a European thing).

My question for comment is: What are the pros or cons of adding coils beyond the standard of 3? Anyone know?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

One place where the number of coils matters is in the tuning pin height, or rather the depth of the pin in the block. For the same clearance between the bottom of the coils and the plate, 3 coils will be approximately 2mm further into the block than 5 coils. Though if you’re driving pins to a depth that sets the same angle for the strings to come off the counterbearing, and you have room between the coils and the plate, I don’t see a difference.

It seems that manufacturers must have some reason for changing. Yamaha (at least on U1s) somewhat recently switched from 3 coils in the treble to now 4. Not certain, but I believe I’ve seen this on Steinways too.

Joe Wiencek
NYC


Original Message:
Sent: 8/18/2022 5:05:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Coils...and more coils

Of course the "standard" number of coils on a tuning pin is 3 or 3.5. However I have seen stringing jobs with 4, 5, and I think I saw one once with 6 coils on the pins in the treble.  (It seems to me that this is kind of a European thing).

My question for comment is: What are the pros or cons of adding coils beyond the standard of 3? Anyone know?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

I'm thinking about using 2 1/2" pins vs. 2 3/8". Therefore I was thinking of adding a coil or two up top. Whether that changes the dynamics up there in any negative way is what I'm trying to determine. If the bottom of the coil is in essentially the same place as it was originally I'm thinking I just have a taller pin. I have tuned pianos with 4-5 coils on them and have not detected anything out of the ordinary. Just trying to think it through. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-19-2022 13:10
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: Coils...and more coils

One place where the number of coils matters is in the tuning pin height, or rather the depth of the pin in the block. For the same clearance between the bottom of the coils and the plate, 3 coils will be approximately 2mm further into the block than 5 coils. Though if you're driving pins to a depth that sets the same angle for the strings to come off the counterbearing, and you have room between the coils and the plate, I don't see a difference.

It seems that manufacturers must have some reason for changing. Yamaha (at least on U1s) somewhat recently switched from 3 coils in the treble to now 4. Not certain, but I believe I've seen this on Steinways too.

Joe Wiencek
NYC


Original Message:
Sent: 8/18/2022 5:05:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Coils...and more coils

Of course the "standard" number of coils on a tuning pin is 3 or 3.5. However I have seen stringing jobs with 4, 5, and I think I saw one once with 6 coils on the pins in the treble.  (It seems to me that this is kind of a European thing).

My question for comment is: What are the pros or cons of adding coils beyond the standard of 3? Anyone know?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Why?  If you're restringing a piano and the original pins are 2 3/8 I would definitely not go to 2 1/2. And you need to be careful going to 2 1/2 on a new block that was originally strung with 2 3/8 that the new pins don't extend beyond the bottom of the block.

The reason not to go to 2 1/2 from 2 3/8 on a restringing job is that the bottom of the hole will not have opened up from the original pin and you can get the 2 1/2 inch pin binding at the bottom of the tuning home unless you drill it out first to remove that little shelf that forms below the bottom of the original pin.

I recently had a situation with a restrung Steinway where whoever did it used 2 1/2" pin and went up two sizes on top of it and the pins were not movable. I spent the better part of the day working the pins back-and-forth to free them up which I was able to do but not without much pain and suffering. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-19-2022 18:17
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Coils...and more coils

I'm thinking about using 2 1/2" pins vs. 2 3/8". Therefore I was thinking of adding a coil or two up top. Whether that changes the dynamics up there in any negative way is what I'm trying to determine. If the bottom of the coil is in essentially the same place as it was originally I'm thinking I just have a taller pin. I have tuned pianos with 4-5 coils on them and have not detected anything out of the ordinary. Just trying to think it through.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-19-2022 13:10
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: Coils...and more coils

One place where the number of coils matters is in the tuning pin height, or rather the depth of the pin in the block. For the same clearance between the bottom of the coils and the plate, 3 coils will be approximately 2mm further into the block than 5 coils. Though if you're driving pins to a depth that sets the same angle for the strings to come off the counterbearing, and you have room between the coils and the plate, I don't see a difference.

It seems that manufacturers must have some reason for changing. Yamaha (at least on U1s) somewhat recently switched from 3 coils in the treble to now 4. Not certain, but I believe I've seen this on Steinways too.

Joe Wiencek
NYC


Original Message:
Sent: 8/18/2022 5:05:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Coils...and more coils

Of course the "standard" number of coils on a tuning pin is 3 or 3.5. However I have seen stringing jobs with 4, 5, and I think I saw one once with 6 coils on the pins in the treble.  (It seems to me that this is kind of a European thing).

My question for comment is: What are the pros or cons of adding coils beyond the standard of 3? Anyone know?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

As I understand it, the reason for increasing the string wraps on treble strings is to maintain two things. First of all, uniformity in tuning pin height makes for good aesthetics. Secondly, as you move up the scale strings get thinner. Adding that extra 1/2 or full winding near the top compensates for that thinning while maintaining the distance from the bottom of the coil to the plate, and/or pinblock without having to pound the pin in further. OK, looks are important but I believe the uniformity between bottom of coil and plate is to maintain a more or less constant angle, and therefore tension on the pin from where the wire leaves the pin. The higher the wire leaves the pin the less tension from the wire it takes to bend the pin. Therefore, adding that extra turn lowers the wire on the pin to near where all the other wires leave their pins and helps maintain equal tension and, theoretically, stability in the higher notes.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-19-2022 13:10
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: Coils...and more coils

One place where the number of coils matters is in the tuning pin height, or rather the depth of the pin in the block. For the same clearance between the bottom of the coils and the plate, 3 coils will be approximately 2mm further into the block than 5 coils. Though if you're driving pins to a depth that sets the same angle for the strings to come off the counterbearing, and you have room between the coils and the plate, I don't see a difference.

It seems that manufacturers must have some reason for changing. Yamaha (at least on U1s) somewhat recently switched from 3 coils in the treble to now 4. Not certain, but I believe I've seen this on Steinways too.

Joe Wiencek
NYC


Original Message:
Sent: 8/18/2022 5:05:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Coils...and more coils

Of course the "standard" number of coils on a tuning pin is 3 or 3.5. However I have seen stringing jobs with 4, 5, and I think I saw one once with 6 coils on the pins in the treble.  (It seems to me that this is kind of a European thing).

My question for comment is: What are the pros or cons of adding coils beyond the standard of 3? Anyone know?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Four coils at the top simply makes the tuning pin depth more uniform across the scale assuming the coil height off the plate is consistent.  that usually works out just fine because you don't really need more torque at the top which you would get if the pin was driven a little bit deeper

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-19-2022 13:10
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: Coils...and more coils

One place where the number of coils matters is in the tuning pin height, or rather the depth of the pin in the block. For the same clearance between the bottom of the coils and the plate, 3 coils will be approximately 2mm further into the block than 5 coils. Though if you're driving pins to a depth that sets the same angle for the strings to come off the counterbearing, and you have room between the coils and the plate, I don't see a difference.

It seems that manufacturers must have some reason for changing. Yamaha (at least on U1s) somewhat recently switched from 3 coils in the treble to now 4. Not certain, but I believe I've seen this on Steinways too.

Joe Wiencek
NYC


Original Message:
Sent: 8/18/2022 5:05:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Coils...and more coils

Of course the "standard" number of coils on a tuning pin is 3 or 3.5. However I have seen stringing jobs with 4, 5, and I think I saw one once with 6 coils on the pins in the treble.  (It seems to me that this is kind of a European thing).

My question for comment is: What are the pros or cons of adding coils beyond the standard of 3? Anyone know?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

I would, however, install 2 ½" pins on the single bass strings. Due to the diameter of the core, while maintaining coil height, there would be less pin in the block. Maybe that's why those notes had developed loose pins earlier. And as David recommended, ream the hole deeper.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-20-2022 23:10
From: David Love
Subject: Coils...and more coils

Four coils at the top simply makes the tuning pin depth more uniform across the scale assuming the coil height off the plate is consistent.  that usually works out just fine because you don't really need more torque at the top which you would get if the pin was driven a little bit deeper

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 08-19-2022 13:10
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: Coils...and more coils

One place where the number of coils matters is in the tuning pin height, or rather the depth of the pin in the block. For the same clearance between the bottom of the coils and the plate, 3 coils will be approximately 2mm further into the block than 5 coils. Though if you're driving pins to a depth that sets the same angle for the strings to come off the counterbearing, and you have room between the coils and the plate, I don't see a difference.

It seems that manufacturers must have some reason for changing. Yamaha (at least on U1s) somewhat recently switched from 3 coils in the treble to now 4. Not certain, but I believe I've seen this on Steinways too.

Joe Wiencek
NYC


Original Message:
Sent: 8/18/2022 5:05:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Coils...and more coils

Of course the "standard" number of coils on a tuning pin is 3 or 3.5. However I have seen stringing jobs with 4, 5, and I think I saw one once with 6 coils on the pins in the treble.  (It seems to me that this is kind of a European thing).

My question for comment is: What are the pros or cons of adding coils beyond the standard of 3? Anyone know?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

I just ordered a set of 7.1mm x 60mm pins from Gregor Heller so that's no longer an issue. I also inquired on behalf of Mr. Roeder as to 67mm pins. Should know by tomorrow. 

Jon,

I may still take your advice and put 2 1/2" pins in the low bass. I'll make that decision when I get there. Thx

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2022 07:45
From: Jon Page
Subject: Coils...and more coils

I would, however, install 2 ½" pins on the single bass strings. Due to the diameter of the core, while maintaining coil height, there would be less pin in the block. Maybe that's why those notes had developed loose pins earlier. And as David recommended, ream the hole deeper.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-20-2022 23:10
From: David Love
Subject: Coils...and more coils

Four coils at the top simply makes the tuning pin depth more uniform across the scale assuming the coil height off the plate is consistent.  that usually works out just fine because you don't really need more torque at the top which you would get if the pin was driven a little bit deeper

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 08-19-2022 13:10
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: Coils...and more coils

One place where the number of coils matters is in the tuning pin height, or rather the depth of the pin in the block. For the same clearance between the bottom of the coils and the plate, 3 coils will be approximately 2mm further into the block than 5 coils. Though if you're driving pins to a depth that sets the same angle for the strings to come off the counterbearing, and you have room between the coils and the plate, I don't see a difference.

It seems that manufacturers must have some reason for changing. Yamaha (at least on U1s) somewhat recently switched from 3 coils in the treble to now 4. Not certain, but I believe I've seen this on Steinways too.

Joe Wiencek
NYC


Original Message:
Sent: 8/18/2022 5:05:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Coils...and more coils

Of course the "standard" number of coils on a tuning pin is 3 or 3.5. However I have seen stringing jobs with 4, 5, and I think I saw one once with 6 coils on the pins in the treble.  (It seems to me that this is kind of a European thing).

My question for comment is: What are the pros or cons of adding coils beyond the standard of 3? Anyone know?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

That reminds me of my stringing days long ago. I used to drill out the becket holes to a larger diameter and keep several on hand for Steinways. The lowest note cores were always too fat to fit through the holes.

Bob Anderson
Tucson, AZ


Original Message:
Sent: 8/21/2022 7:45:00 AM
From: Jon Page
Subject: RE: Coils...and more coils

I would, however, install 2 ½" pins on the single bass strings. Due to the diameter of the core, while maintaining coil height, there would be less pin in the block. Maybe that's why those notes had developed loose pins earlier. And as David recommended, ream the hole deeper.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-20-2022 23:10
From: David Love
Subject: Coils...and more coils

Four coils at the top simply makes the tuning pin depth more uniform across the scale assuming the coil height off the plate is consistent.  that usually works out just fine because you don't really need more torque at the top which you would get if the pin was driven a little bit deeper

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 08-19-2022 13:10
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: Coils...and more coils

One place where the number of coils matters is in the tuning pin height, or rather the depth of the pin in the block. For the same clearance between the bottom of the coils and the plate, 3 coils will be approximately 2mm further into the block than 5 coils. Though if you're driving pins to a depth that sets the same angle for the strings to come off the counterbearing, and you have room between the coils and the plate, I don't see a difference.

It seems that manufacturers must have some reason for changing. Yamaha (at least on U1s) somewhat recently switched from 3 coils in the treble to now 4. Not certain, but I believe I've seen this on Steinways too.

Joe Wiencek
NYC


Original Message:
Sent: 8/18/2022 5:05:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Coils...and more coils

Of course the "standard" number of coils on a tuning pin is 3 or 3.5. However I have seen stringing jobs with 4, 5, and I think I saw one once with 6 coils on the pins in the treble.  (It seems to me that this is kind of a European thing).

My question for comment is: What are the pros or cons of adding coils beyond the standard of 3? Anyone know?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

It would seem to me that more coils will take longer to settle in. The lowest coil becomes tight and the upper coils slowly become tighter. That's why I use parallel pliers and grip the coil (at the becket) and give four quarter turns counter-clockwise to coax the upper coils tighter, advancing their settling in.  I've had pianos that have been strung for years and show signs of the tuning being squirrelly. After applying the grip & twist, tension dropped anywhere between 60 cents to a minor third.

I prefer the look of three coils across the compass. If you need less torque up top, drill the block .001" larger. Or mic the pins and place the thinner (-.001") ones at the top and the larger ones (+.001") in the bass bichords. Leaving longer pins for the single bass strings.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-18-2022 17:04
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Coils...and more coils

Of course the "standard" number of coils on a tuning pin is 3 or 3.5. However I have seen stringing jobs with 4, 5, and I think I saw one once with 6 coils on the pins in the treble.  (It seems to me that this is kind of a European thing).

My question for comment is: What are the pros or cons of adding coils beyond the standard of 3? Anyone know?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Jon,

Yes, will do.

Mr. Roeder,

Gregor Heller says he's never heard of 67mm pins. Must have been a one off run of pins by Mapes many moons ago just for the D's...now depleted. Looks like 2 1/2" is what you've got.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2022 08:46
From: Jon Page
Subject: Coils...and more coils

It would seem to me that more coils will take longer to settle in. The lowest coil becomes tight and the upper coils slowly become tighter. That's why I use parallel pliers and grip the coil (at the becket) and give four quarter turns counter-clockwise to coax the upper coils tighter, advancing their settling in.  I've had pianos that have been strung for years and show signs of the tuning being squirrelly. After applying the grip & twist, tension dropped anywhere between 60 cents to a minor third.

I prefer the look of three coils across the compass. If you need less torque up top, drill the block .001" larger. Or mic the pins and place the thinner (-.001") ones at the top and the larger ones (+.001") in the bass bichords. Leaving longer pins for the single bass strings.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-18-2022 17:04
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Coils...and more coils

Of course the "standard" number of coils on a tuning pin is 3 or 3.5. However I have seen stringing jobs with 4, 5, and I think I saw one once with 6 coils on the pins in the treble.  (It seems to me that this is kind of a European thing).

My question for comment is: What are the pros or cons of adding coils beyond the standard of 3? Anyone know?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------